Daughter has a gas waterheater mfg in July 1991. I think it’s a bit long in the tooth & should suffer wuthanasia yesterday as a preventive measure since it is in a finishe basement utility room.
What’s the life expecancy on one of these brutes? She hesitates because a new one costs about $3000 installed in the DC suburbs in VA. Normally, she & I would just rip out the old & install new – but neither of us is enthralled w/ messing w/ gas.
(Before you ask, her husband is the poet & lover in the family, and a really all around neat guy; daugher is the engineer. He cheers us on – except the time right after they moved in that we were repairing a toilet in the front yard over a 5 gal bucket. That night he ran for cover in the basement. He’s a great flashlight holder.)
Don
The Glass Masterworks
“If it scratches, I etch it!”
Replies
Life 5 years to 25 years. And some even shorter or longer.
So much depends on both local water conditions and usage patterns.
BTW, if it is now hooked up with a flexible gas connector it is fairly simple to replace the gas connection when replacing the WH.
Just a wrench and a new flex line. Don't even need dope.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Bill: it's NOT connected w/ a flex line. It's good old black iron pipe.
Also, I think the Politburo of Fairfax County, VA, REQUIRES a licensed plumber to do the job, along w/ permits & inspections.
You have answered my question. Thanks.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Did you try shutting it down, hooking up a garden house to drain it, and observe what comes out in the last few gallons? Rust? Sediment? Maybe you don't have a problem at all.
$3000 for a new water heater is ridiculous. If the WH is about $200, that should give the installer about $1400 per hour for his labors. Are you sure that you cannot install your own WH. My advise is if it is workin, don't fix it. Before I got municipal water, I had to work on my WH about every three years. It has been some twenty years since without a problem.
Tink: That's what daughter told me when I nagged her about it last month at Christmas visit. I think it's ludicrous, also, but ...
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
Perhaps just adding a water sensor that would shut off the water flow if a leak is detected would be sufficient. Then the worst leak would be the 40 gallons in the tank.Draining the tank, flushing it out some, and checking the anode rod is also in order.
Bryan: Ever seen 50 gal of water spread 1/8 inch thck? I've only seen 20 gal from a fish tank do that. Realy a mess - got a 12X15 rug soaked. That said - 50 gal is better than 500 spread out over a weekend when you aren't home.
Still think it's euthanasia time for that water heater.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
But that also assumes a hole occurs at the bottom.Myself, I'd replace the water heater, but not to the tune of $3,000 or whatever you are being quoted. Go buy a heater (AO Smith) at a plumbing supply place and a flex connector, and replace it.
Preventive maint can extend the life of the water heater. Annual draining helps. Also have someone check the anode rod. It probably needs replacing.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.
Marv
Buildup of minerals on the bottom can significantly decrease efficiency. The plumbers in my area tell me 1/10" a year is common with our water -- a 1/2" increases fuel consumption about 70%.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I wonder why sediment would affect efficiency (until several inches build up), given that the heat exchanger is vertically oriented above the floor of the heater?Certainly sediment does affect tank lifetime though, by creating thermal stresses and by creating conditions for electrolytic action.
The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one. --Wilhelm Stekel
Those are industry figures I've tracked down over the years.I wonder how much heat gets transferred once it's in the internal flue?BTW, the is a definite correlation between temps at the top of the flue (before the make-up air from the drafthood mixes in) and the age of the water heater - I measure these regularly as part of my inspections. I've always figured it was from reduced heat transfer on the bottom of the tank from sediment buildup.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
It's probably due to the improved efficiency of newer units.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
>>It's probably due to the improved efficiency of newer units.
Most of the sealed chamber water heaters are running really hot when new!
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
A side question. How long should the anode last in a new water heater before needing to be replaced.
That would only be true of the gas WH. The electrics, though the capacity may be reduced are 100% efficient.
Didn't really see it spread out but being on the local water board, I did notice one poor customer who had her house up for sale so was not living there. The house froze up, thawed and proceeded to spew about $5000 worth of the precious stuff into the basement. When the house was sold we got our money.
New Years week, HW heater burst in So. Calif. Installed new cost my friend $2600.00. 75 Gallon tank (gas). Home Depot price on Rheem unit was $789.00. Plumber installed a Bradford White same capacity. Took 4+ hrs to remove the old and install the new. Calif, has special clean burning laws for the burner so therefore they cost more. Also cost her $8000 for the water abatement services as the basement was finished and the water had been running for days. Spectacular lake front home.
Having spent some time managing apartments, we replaced several water heaters per year. Some were electric and some gas. The electric ones were generally easier to install. It has been several years now but I can't ever remember paying $400 for a WH. My maintenance man did most of the installations and he was paid about $20 per hour. I just can't imagine paying more that $500 for a replacement of a standard hot water heater. I used to buy quite a few appliances each year when the salesman wanted to sell extended warrantees. Can you imagine the cost of extended warrantees on several hundred appliances? Too stay in business one has to be a little stingy in some areas. I put in a new WH one time that would open up in the middle of the nite sometimes, leak several gallons then seal up again. It was over another apartments bedroom. Did that several times. I couldn't imagine what else it could be so I replaced it under warrantee and it seemed to fix the leak. I had another WH leak in the nite time. The girl awoke and was thinking she had "peed herself" I thought she might be mad but she saw we were doing everything we could and she later became my secretary for a year.
I'm from NY, so I too thought the quote was alittle pricey. That's why I called a local home depot for a material cost on the heater. $780 for the 75 gallon. Rheem. That was a Calif. HD. Plumber said the new ones were alot more expensive because of the emissions laws. Installed it on New Years Eve.
Perhaps electric might be cheaper in the long run even if the electricity might be a little more expensive as you wouldn't have the problem of emissions and the added trouble with hookup to deal with.
Our electric water heater is over 32 years old. Has gone through two elements and three thermostats but otherwise still doing fine.
That said --
-- Electrics tend to last longer than gas units
-- Water quality makes a big difference -- we have iron-rich water which probably reduces corrosion, plus a whole house filter which reduces sediment buildup.
-- I've always seen 13 years quoted as the "average" lifetime.
-- Our heater is in a utility room where it wouldn't cause too much damage if it developed a leak (though a complete rupture would be a mess). Certainly it's better to be preemptive in cases where a leak would cause significant damage.
(It would be interesting to hear from some folks what failure modes they've seen. I've only seen simple leaks -- on the order of a quart a minute.)
3 grand for a tanked heater is silly.
For a tankless, it's normal.
Great DIY job. Although I'd be more concerned about the venting than the gas.
Here is a local company.http://www.onehourshower.com/tankless.htmlStarting at 2 grand for the smaller size, but might be extra if additional gas piping or venting needed..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Pete: I wear a robe & sing crappy baritone. Don't ned to preach. That's what I told daughter.
DonDon Reinhard
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
10 years is old, IMO. The newer ones are more efficient, if nothing else.
I hate to say it, but I'm voting for legal install with permits. Insurance coverage of water damage and resale would be my concerns.
Don't call a "Emergency Water Heater Replacement" company. Find a plumber, pay them their $135 or whatever an hour, and schedule it at their convenience.
Double check whether the homeowner can install. Can the Homeowner help pull the permit, at least? Some plumbers will let you do the leg work, and basically charge a flat rate for the faxes and fees.
If the building department is adamant that it must be a licensed plumber, maybe you can (politely) negotiate a bit with the plumber- ask what their markup is, maybe supply the heater yourself? If it's an hourly rate, maybe do some of the prep yourself- check heights, vent slope, access, blocking/strapping if req. etc.
I'd try to aim for a situation where the new heater is there, all the parts are in place or at hand, and the plumber will just un-hook the old and roll the new in. They'll have a minimum fee, and you'll end up paying a half day rate or whatever for 30 min of work, which is fair. I'd take the old water heater away myself, too.
I have seen the aftermath of two water heater failures. In both cases, the HO knew there was a problem, but went to bed thinking "well, it's already wet, I'll just let the rest of the 40 gallons drain out of the tank, and deal with it tomorrow."
Neither had leak sensors or auto shut offs, they just never really thought about the logic of how a water heater operates, and convinced themselves that the tank would run dry and that would be it.
One 1200 SF basement filled about a foot deep. Pretty much every stored item was soaked. The other was on a hill, and fortunately the water ran through the crawl space and out a vent, carving a channel near tens of thousands of dollars of stored artwork, miraculously causing no real damage.
just my two cents
k
>>The newer ones are more efficient, if nothing else.Not according to the published efficiency stats (They improved after te 70's because of increased insulation - but combustion effiency remains about the same.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
I defer to your expertise.
It may have less to do with the new units' testing lab ratings and more to do with the operation of the unit as a whole after ten years. My gas bill dropped, that's for sure. And it wasn't just sediment or a corroded inlet tube.
I don't know if the burner itself isn't firing the same or what after 10 years, just know it takes less gas for more hot.
k
Christmas Eve morning I went down to the shop, and found a halo od water on the floor surrounding my HW. It was 10 years and two months into a 10 year warranty. Took longer to drain than to replace. About $400 for a new one, and 2 hours total.
This is our 4th heater in the 23 years we've lived here (bought new.) First one lasted less than 5 years. Culligan back flushing their resin beads into my pipes might have had something to do with that, though.
"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." Invictus, by Henley.
Don,
My house was built in 1978. Washington gas decided to run gas lines down our street in 2000 and at that time we switched to gas. Our original electric water heater was still working fine at that time (22 years old) The new gas heater is now 8 years old and has given us absolutely no problems. I will be very disappointed if it does not also last at least 20 years.
Personally, unless there is some sign of leaking or other reason to replace, I would leave it alone. I will also say that $3000 sounds like robbery. The heater itself is probably less than $300. How can you justify $2700 in labor ? Even a good do it yourselfer like myself could do it in a few hours max.
Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md
You can expect the gas WH to take a little longer to change out. The gas line if hard plumbed will probably require some cutting and threading or require several trips to the plumbing store for proper nipples. The venting will also require fitting to the new WH. The unit will also require periodic cleaning and maintenance to insure the flame is burning efficiently. I was always concerned about this and the problems of CO being emitted. Last summer a neighbor of ours had a girl spend the nite to enjoy the new swimming pool. The pool heater was not functioning properly and the end result was the girl died.
Here in Texas, a 40 gallon Whirlpool gas water heater cost about $480.00... All the double wall vent pipe was already installed for this size and height of water heater......
Lowes installed it for $250.00 + 24.95 for a useless pack of too short lengths of copper flex and a 2' long yellow flex gas hose... I have the older gas faucets with 3/8" threads...installer didn't have an adapter and couldn't go get the needed flex piping, so I left him at my house while I ran to the hardware store for a gas line... it and the adapters cost an additional $32.00...
As the installer unloaded the water heater, a Lowes' rep appeared and put a temp. sign in the yard showing "Lowe's was here".. and brought out longer lines than were in the 24.95, but one was not long enough....so guess how they fixed it........and still charged the $250.....................
Here an example of how Lowes installed the new hot water heater.... :>(
View Image
Bill
$ 3,000.00 is tripple the price of a standard HWH change out by a good quality licensed plumber
There are several code required things that may be required to install a new HWH legally
Check to see if you have a 3 inch or 4 inch flue pipe. In Maryland. Virginia, DC area you are required increase existing 3" flue pipes to 4" flue pipes. This involves tearing out the old flue crock and installing a larger flue crock into the existing chimney. This could add $ 400.00 to $ 800.00 to the project.
I have seen a few HWH installed in older houses in my area that were installed without a gas shut off valve. Check to see that a gas shut off valve exists and is in proper working order.
All disturbed gas fittings should be tested for leak after the final installation
If there are any floor drains close to the hot water heater, think about installing a HWH drain pan under the new HWH and pipe the discharge from the HWH drain pan to the floor drain. This is a great back up plan in case the HWH were ever to leak in the future. HWH drain pans are required by code on any HWH installed on any floor above living space below
Paul
As I was getting ready to go to the gym this AM I head a faint sound like trickling water. At first figured it was the water softener recharging, but didn't sound quite like that so I checked the utility room. There was water running across the floor from the electric water heater.
Got a flashlight and quickly established that the water (a pretty steady trickle) was coming out of the T&P valve pipe. Observed the neon lights on the elements (a "feature" I added about 20 years ago) and saw that the upper element was energized. Flipped off the power and ran some hot water. The trickle dropped to a pencil-thin stream. Flicked the valve a couple of times and it stopped.
Will buy a new upper thermostat today at lunch.
No one in their right mind would charge $3000.00 to remove and install a water heater.Try calling several plumbing contractors if you do not care to do the work yourself.Sometimes the gas company sells and installs gas appliances including water heaters.As a last resort,call the plumbers union hall and tell them your situation.You will pay a union plumber a days wages plus benefits.Even if this comes to $1000.00 your only getting screwed for about $650.00 for labor instead of $2650.00.
Often a union plumber would treat this as a side job and it would not cost anywhere near $1000.00.Today I suspect there are plumbers out of work, thus the hall will see this as a days wages for one man instead of a side job.
mike
> No one in their right mind would charge $3000.00 to remove and install a water heater.I think you mean no one in their right mind (and not over a barrel) would PAY that much. Certainly many perfectly sane (if unscrupulous) plumbers will charge that much if they can get away with it.
God is REAL, unless explicitly declared INTEGER
Dan, your right,they might try $4000.00 next if they get away with $3000.00I'm referring to crooks not ethical plumbers.I believe every trade is entitled to be well compensated,but about $700.00 an hour is a tad high.
mike