My electrical sub has run a couple of 14 guage switchlegs (from the switch to the light fixture) that is being fed by a 20 amp circuit (breaker and 12 guage wire) for outlets. Is this a real problem? I guess that since a single light isn’t pulling any significant amperage it shouldn’t overheat, but it sounds like it may be a code violation. Any thoughts?
rk
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Replies
Make the sub fix it, yes a code violation.
BTW personal preference is for outlets and lighting to be on separate circuits - e.g., if you trip a breaker with an overloaded outlet or if refrigerator and microwave start at the exact same time, , the lights won't go out also.
Junkhound-
That's what I thought. Actually, with the exception of these couple of lights, everything else is split between lighting circuits and outlets. I was just going through a last check before the electrical / plumbing and framing inspections and found a few things that didn't look right. I'll definitely have it corrected. Thanks again.
rk
I agree as to no plugs on lighting circuits, and I also try to checkerboard the lighting circuits so that adjacent spaces are on different ones. So if the breaker for the bedroom light trips, the hallway light is still on.
-- J.S.
I have a question. Why go to 14 gauge wire at all? I understand it is cheaper, but the difference in cost between putting lighting circuits on 14 ga. vs. 12 ga. can't really add up to that much? Even in a big house?
Ok, 2 questions, I read an article last week that recommended upsizing your wire sizes where ever possible. The main reason given was that within a few years you would save enough electricity to more then pay for the upgrade due to decreased line losses. Does this make any sense to you? Seems to make sense to me on a heavily loaded circuit anyway.
Frankly, I'm grateful all the wiring in my house is 12 ga. minimum. Even more grateful it's not aluminum like my last house. Even more more grateful that the last owner only wired a few things, his work was scary.
I just did a whole basement with 12ga. You're correct, it's just pennies more for the material, but it is WAY stiffer to work with, needs bigger nuts, and for the life of me I can't get two 12ga ground wires attached to the little green ground lug on a switch or plug. Just my $0.02.
Eric
Try tying your two ground wires together first with a couple of twists, deep inside the box, low on the wires. Then cut one tail of the two off, and go to the green screw with the one tail you have left. Perfectly legal.
Edited 2/1/2003 5:45:28 PM ET by MICHAELMOSEL
I have just heard from a master electrician that this is no longer acceptable. Anyone have a definite read on this?
Not sure if you can just twist them together.
You can get the green wire nuts with a hole in the end. Do the same thing, but twist all the grounds together back in the box, leaving one wire long. Put the wire nut over the long wire and twist tight then hook the long wire to the outlet. The nut insures the grounds don't come loose.
My house was wired w/ the ground wires stuck through a sleeve that was crimped tight around them. Not sure this is still legal either, or how much the crimping tool would be.
Crimping bells are still legal, but your inspector may have his own preferance. Luggers cost about $16.00 to $20.00 depending brand and/or where you get them.
Thanks, if I did this for a living I'd buy one. As is, I'll spend 15 cents on the green wire nuts, they work well, but take up more space.
Good evening all - Several responses:
No. 14 conductors are not permitted on 20 ampere circuits that supply lighting and receptacle outlets as per Code.
Equipment grounding conductors must be mechanically joined and not just twisted together with one of them landed on the ground screw per Code. All this takes is a wirenut either the type that has a hole in the end or one that doesn't which would require an additional short length of wire from the splice to the switch or receptacle. This additional wire does not count as a wire when calculating box fill since it does not leave the box.
Also, landing two wires under a screw intended for a single wire is a definite no-no. Just take a look at the wiring device instructions. I've never seen more than one wire under a grounding terminal. Electrical equipment must be installed according to any manufacturers instructions in accordance with Code.
Regarding lighting connected to receptacle circuits, it seems the forum preference is leaning toward separating the two. What all should realize that the Code requires, in areas that have not overridden the specific requirement, arc fault circuit interrupters on all circuits serving outlets, lighting, receptacle, smoke detectors, all, that are located in bedrooms. If two circuits are in a bedroom then two expensive AFCI circuit breakers are needed. And, if the lighting or receptacle circuits located in one bedroom serves another non-bedroom, then some other portion of the house will be effected. My suggestion is one circuit per bedroom.
Edited 2/6/2003 8:49:36 PM ET by Whitman
Edited 2/6/2003 8:50:31 PM ET by Whitman
Are AFCI's actually required now? About $70 ea. aren't they?
I'd only heard that they might start requiring them in the next code reiteration.
But, when I did wiring it was in the 96 NEC, havn't messed with the 99 one at all.
Your other points are well stated. Though I had no confusion with any of them, and hopefully didn't convey such. I've never just twisted ground wires together w/o a wire nut. Wouldn't trust it even if it was allowed.
The 99 code says that effective 1/1/2002 that all 15/20 amp recptacles in bedrooms had to be protected by arc faults.
I dont' have the 2002 version of the code, but I think that it was changed to read all outlets, including lighting and wired smokes.
Of course it depends on if your local has adopted the 99 or 2002 version yet. And I have heard that some locals with the newer versions are passing on the new requirements for the time.
Interesting. I've never seen an arc fault.
Read a good explination of how they work once, but don't really remember it. The article suggested they may soon be required, but reccommended people wait as they were still unreliable and tended to trip when they shouldn't.
Probably read this 4-5 yrs ago.
How expensive are they for a 15 or 20 amp breaker? Sounds like you might need 10 or more of them for a house.
I am not sure of the price, maybe $50-70.
No, you should be able to get by with 1-3 in the typical 3-4 bedroom house.
Single-pole 15's/20's Cutler-Hammer or SqD Homeline are costing me $31.95 wholesale. $68.57 for a 2-pole 15a. 'course I mark-em up :)
Ed
Hi,
We wire the homes with each bedroom on its own circuit , lights and receptacles. Why do we do this? 1. Because if a circuit in the bedroom trips it only takes out the lighting in that bedroom and the receptacles in that bedroom. Each bedroom has a switch within reach of the door to activate hall light. 2. With todays electricals needs, hairdryers, curling irons etc. being used in the bedroom more and more. We feel this is a standard that best suits our clients. We also zone the lighting so if any circuit trips only that zone will lose lighting. We also put the smoke detectors on their own circuit because in the event that a receptacle or light would arc or short and the breaker would trip after the short started a fire the smoke/fire alarms would still be functional. We use detectors that have a light on when the circuit is closed. The electricians like this method, the homeruns are easier to layout and wiring schematic is neater and easier to read.
Sincerely Yours.
Dave
"I can't get two 12ga ground wires attached to the little green ground lug on a switch or plug."
Espelt -
When I read that it made me spit out my beer ....it's so un-selfconsciously wrong it made me laugh :-)
Peace and love dude, and stay away from electricity. PLEASE.
Ed
I got it together right, eventually. I guess that's why I'm having the basement permitted and inspected (most people around here don't). Although I'm a Civil Engineer and have worked in construction, I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything. Eric
Article 210.12 (B) NEC 2002
All branch circuits that supply 125-volt ,singe phase, 15- and 20-amp outlets installed in dwelling unitbedroom shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
There are two good reasons for using #14 on lighting circuits, at least in some cases.
Lighting circuit often have 3 way or 4 way switches and sometime multiple ones in one gained box. That makes for a lot of box fill. Specially as in the job that I was doing it was surface mounted metal boxes. You don't have lots of choice in box size.
When retrofiting circuits it is a lot easier to fish #14, specially 14-3.
Thanks to all.
I should have thought about the box fill, fishing, and stiffness issues. Never enough volume in boxes. Especially if forced to use a specific type or size.
Still, I will use 12 ga.. Even if it doesn't help w/ line losses, I prefer it. 14 ga. just seems cheap after getting used to 12. Kinda like using particle board for drawer sides in a nice oak cabinet.
When I was young and relatively foolish and even when romex was 5X the price as now in infaltion dollars, I put 12 Ga everywhere.
As I got older, all of the previous comments about the ease of using 14 AWG vs 12 AWG came into play fast, besides, is there anyone here who lights a ball field or something (e.g. - MJ crop<G>) that needs over 15 A on lighting circuits.
Using more circuits w/14's is a much better alternative than using 12's for every thing.If you use 12 for everything you're going to have either too many boxes or too many code violations.
Edited 2/1/2003 11:59:53 PM ET by IBEW Barry