What is the best method to keeping your fascia straight with top of trusses. Have lined up top of fascia with top of trusses with a straight edge for years but many times we seem to have to really crank on fascias to line them up. At times fascia may have a bow in it and other times trusses may be not exactly even.
Thought about marking truss tail at each end of house at proper height, snapping line on end of tails and run fascia to the line. Any one tried this? Any other methods?
Roger
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That is what we do. We measure out from the house sheathing whatever the overhang, minus the fascia board. Example, for 2' overhangs we mark 22 1/2" and snap a line from one end of the house to the other on top of the rafter tails. Cut them all off, and you are ready for fascia boards.
Maybe I'm not clear, not cutting the tails but keeping the fascia running even with the top of the trusses. I thought about snapping a line on the ends of the tails to keep fascia straight.
Any clearer?
Roger
Gotcha, been there, done that as well. It works wonders. Just make sure you pick some of your straightest lumber for your fascia boards.
Thanks, I think we will try it next time.
Before you set trusses string line your walls. Then set the trusses with the heel height being the same on every truss. That makes facia alot easier.
"Getting old ain't for the weak." Uncle Chet
would he be doing it any other way?
not sure why anyone would not have their walls strung and braced before trusses go up.
I am not sure how he's doing it. It sounded like he was fighting the facia so I threw out a couple of simple ideas.
I don't understand why people don't do it either, I see it alot around here. The amish are the biggest offenders.
Another thing I don't get is why people don't cut the tails. The tails are left long and are never straight. It only takes a few minutes to snap a line and cut the tails.
On trussed hip roofs the fascia is a set point, if the overhangs are run long then it throws the ridge off from the girder then to the main ridge of the house.
Edited 12/9/2006 8:40 pm ET by Stilletto
We always string walls before setting trusses, snap gauge line 1" back from edge of wall on top of plate to set trusses to. Measure and mark each truss back what ever overhang is plus 1". Set trusses to that line.
Trusses are always set straight. Just sometimes trusses are not assembeled tight at joints, have a camber in them or other things that will make the tails not line evenly, maybe the fascia stock is not as straight as it should be. Just wondering how does everybody line up the fascia with trusses. Maybe there is something that I havn't thought of.
Something else we do, don't know if anybody else does is on gable end walls we always put on the drywall nailer on top of the top plate, setting it back 1 1/2" from outside before setting gable end truss. When setting truss you just nail it tight to wall and that 2x4 nailer. Maybe that is common practice but no one around here seems to do it. Makes setting truss lots easier. We always sheet and install gable end fascia before setting truss also.
Always looking for easier and better ways of doing things.
Mort, I avoided this topic because I didn't think you had a decent enough grasp of things based on your first inquiry. Your last post tells me you are well past the beginner phase of setting trusses.
So, I'll give you my system, since you have stated "
Always looking for easier and better ways of doing things." I've always lived by that credo and feel it an honor to give back what has been given to me.
Just for your information, I'm probably the only guy in this forum doing this and you might not be able to, depending on your locality. I'm in Michigan, the homebase of Bill Pulte who invented mass production in the home building industry. Every crew in the metro detroit area has been speed framing since the early 50's.
Please understand that speed framing doesn't preclude quality framing. When I started on my speed framing crews, every carpenter carried sandpaper and sanded every pine joint tight. There wasn't a crack anywhere and every frame joint was pounded as tight as humanly possible. Speed is about systems and techniques, not slop.
Anyways, build your overhangs first, before you set your trusses. Brace them level and straight (takes three minutes with two guys). Place a level cut on your trusses at the end of the tail where it meets the fascia. Set all the trusses with the level points at the exact point where it meets the fascia line. The fascia line becomes both your focal point and your control line.
If done like this, the peaks may wander a bit. The back fascia may also wander a bit. When we are setting, the back man has to keep an eye on things and demand a compromise. Thats normally a 1/4 to 1/2 inch shift if we find a high truss. Low trusses don't get shifted, they get shimmed.
The main idea is to make the most important focal point the governor...usually the front. In these days of McMansions though, the front is often buried in reversed gables and the back fascia is really the only thing visible. In those cases, the back becomes the governor because the entire front of the house gets buried under reverved gables and layed on roofs.
If this techniques merits some interest, I'll post pictures and expand the conversation.
blue
Please expand on this. I am interested.
Heres a pic of our typical overhang. It's a closed system and it hangs out 12" past brick. It typically has a 1x frieze. We build the entire thing before we raise the wall. The frieze goes on first over the brick blocking. The plywood nails tightly into the frieze. I then add the subfascia, a 2x4 which serves as the nailer for both the fascia and gutter.
This entire cornice system is finished completely before we start to set the trusses.
The trusses are cut with a level cut at the point of the truss where the manufacturers stubbed the truss. Typically, that would be 16" for our described overhang system.
When we are setting the trusses, one of the wall guys is the governor. He sets the truss with it's end point at the juncture of the fascia and subfascia. In essence, that line becomes the base line for the entire roof system.
Using the fascia line as the baseline of the entire roof system makes much more sense than using the heel line as the baseline. It took me about 20 years in the business to understand this because a carpenter focus starts out at the wall line. Think about it though. Do you really care if the heel line is perfect, if it cause the fascia line to waver up and down? So, instead of us focusing our efforts at the heel line, we set the bottom of the truss perfect at the fascia line. Miraculously, the rest of the roof falls into place in unison too.
It's really not so surprsing when you mull it over a few times. The key to our roofs is having a straight overhang to begin with. That is accomplished by the framer as he assmbles the parts. I keep the soffit ply tight to the blocks. That is the first control. I then keep the joints in the ply tight ( we don't have any expansion problems with our cornice system). That is the second control. When it's all done, the overhang is straight. The simple block at the joints maintain the integrity and straightness of the entire system unless we abuse it while raising it.
I'd suggest you try this simple idea on a small sided wall. Start with a 16' section of an offset wall. Try it and if it's all wrong, you'll only waste ten minutes or so as you rip the offending overhang off. I've personally nailed hundreds of them up at the wrong height or length but I've never found one that I couldn't easily fix. I've had to move entire house overhangs up or down a couple inches but it's never taken me more than a couple hours repair even at my worst mistakes.
Hope this long winded reply helps.
There are several objections and I'm sure I'll be able to overcome the staunchest arguments against this.
blue
Did you cut that tail ont he truss?
Mine always come out with a Plumb cut on them, and we make our heel height the same on the focal side. If necessary we string and cut the other side before fascia.
I see the beauty of your ways, but have never received trusses cut that way.
Maybe, that is BossHogs fault though (doubt it)Friends help you move.
Real friends help you move bodies!
truss plant will cut it anyway you ask for...
you just have to request it........
regards
truss plant will cut it anyway you ask for...
You know?!! I never thought of that!!! We're going to get all future trusses sent with the level cut, if possible!
Thank you!!!!!
blue
that is funny....
I just assumed that was how you spec'd them,knowing you
have the stopwatch measuring each job task....
they won't come out as nice from the plant compared to being
boogerin'd i am sure.....
regards
I just assumed that was how you spec'd them,
I have spent most of my career framing houses from the builder's materials. I never was involved in the specs of the trusses and quite often never saw them or thought about them till the day I walked on to start the job.
We have been involved in the material supply during the last year and a half but I've never been in on the conversation. I'll pass this idea on to Frank and I'm sure he'll love it.
I consider this a missed opportunity. I coulda thought of this ten years ago and asked my builders to spec the trusses right. I could have a few extra milkbones in my cache.
You'd laugh or cry at how I cut all the tails level. I can usually get an entire stack done in a minute or two.
blue
When you cut the tail level do you just continue the bottom chord line across to the tail?
Just wondering, kind of makes sense that way. It would give you room between the tops of windows and the soffit. If you use a big enough header.
When you cut the tail level do you just continue the bottom chord line across to the tail?
NO.
The simple math involved in figuring out where the level cut is starts with the bottom chord, but then is dictated by all the factors that is involved in a roof overhang: the height of the heel, the slope of the roof and the projection beyond the outside wall.
In most cases, the truss company projects the top chord out the distance that the plans dictate. In the first picture, I explained that we were building our overhangs 12" past brick. The truss company figures brick to be 4". So, they project the overhang 16" past the outside wall line.
If the trusses fit the building, the tip of the top truss chord becomes the top of the fascia and therefore is the point at which we begin our level cut. It's a no brainer.
To install our overhangs on the wall, we will have to determine the height of that point on the trusses. Typically, I use my calculator to determine the theoretical height of the fascia, but then also check it against the reality of the supplied truss. It might vary by 1/4" or more. If it's within a 1/4", I stay with the theoretical numbers and build the overhang with confidence.
blue
I got it now, forgive my ignorance. I haven't seen an overhang framed that way before.
Around here the fascia is just a 2x6 nailed to the tails. Then aluminum soffitt and fascia covers it all. No plywood soffitt or 1x fascia.
Funny how a few hours between us and I haven't seen this done before.
Around here the fascia is just a 2x6 nailed to the tails. Then aluminum soffitt and fascia covers it all. No plywood soffitt or 1x fascia
99.9% of the guys around here would do exactly like you if they were using a vinyl soffit system. We just hate hanging over, snapping lines and cutting tails.
blue
Did you cut that tail ont he truss?
Yes.
We can do all sorts of wierd things with overhangs - Level cuts, double cuts, soffit returns, etc. But doing anything but level cuts around here is pretty rare. The odd stuff is generally done on commercial jobs.
Would a fly without wings be called a walk?
But doing anything but level cuts around here is pretty rare.
I suspect you mis spoke. I think you mean to say that you always supply the trusses with plumb cuts.
blue
Hey now - You can't expect someone as good looking as me to actually know what they're talking about.(-:
You can get more with a smile and a gun than you can with just a smile. [Al Capone]
I don't know what I'm talking about either Boss!
Does that mean we are both good looking? LOL!
blue
Interesting, I never seen fascia done like that before. What holds the fascia up? Just the nails through the toe end of the truss and roof sheeting? I see how that would keep the fascia straight.
Are all of your truss tails cut like that. What if you use aluminum or vinyl soffit?
Interesting, I never seen fascia done like that before. What holds the fascia up? Just the nails through the toe end of the truss and roof sheeting? I see how that would keep the fascia straight.
Are all of your truss tails cut like that. What if you use aluminum or vinyl soffit?
The fascia is held up with nails, obvioiusly. We get good spikes into the subfascia and we also are diligent about nailing at 4" oc through the plywood.
It's important to note that there really isn't that much weight on that subfascia and fascia assembly. The nailing in the back of the soffit pretty much carrys the weight of the soffit ply. The rafter tails carry the subfascia.
The only real possible problem is if he gutter people install the gutters backward and they fill up, but I know our system will still hold that weight up too because I routinely had my 40' barn gutters clogged with leaves and frozen full of water. The sheer multitude of fasteners hold the assembly up quite well.
This system needs tweaking for low pitches though. The meat on the tails is too insignificant on low pitches. We add another subfascia in those cases, usually on the flat.
Heres a set up for a low pitched vinyl overhang. Even for vinyl, we still build a full rack...in fact, we put more (surprisingly) lumber into it!
Normally, we'll have the entire assembly finished before we start setting any trusses. We do it in that sequence because we can lean over the walls from the inside and quickly tie in the gaps in the cornice assembly. In the picture, you see one of those gaps. We probably tied that off the Skytrak box. Without the machine, I find it much easier to lean over on ladders or scaffolds.
blue
I sheet my gables and have the overhangs on them before they are craned into place, much easier and faster.
Good straight 2x6's make fascia easier as well, just one less thing to fight while hanging off the top of the wall with a framing gun.
I also set a 2x4 drywall/truss nailer on top of the wall, to nail the gable truss to. It also gives you 3-1/2" to walk on to nail the truss off as far down as you can reach.
I am always looking for a better or easier way of doing things. I learned alot from Blue eyed devil in a few short conversations with him here. He knows his stuff with trusses.
He explained the concepts behind hip sets which always took longer than they should have. Prebuilding sections of the roof on the ground to be craned into place.
I built two hip sets and a bonus room on the ground in a few hours and they were dead on, it would have taken me at least a day to frame these in place with the site conditions.
View Image
I also set a 2x4 drywall/truss nailer on top of the wall, to nail the gable truss to.
I tried that idea on my first few gables that I flew in completely done. I quickly saw the error of my ways. We had to climb ladders to nail the gable to the nailer. That's not my style.
We then tried nailing the nailer to the gable and flying it in. That works fine for us. Typically, on a brick job, the truss is set and we climb onto step ladders on the inside and measure to make sure we have the proper amount of the nailer hanging in, then we nail the nailer, to the top plate.
This techinque works for all sidings too. It has never failed us.
blue
Sounds like a good idea, makes sense to me. I'll be trying that one on the next frame I get.
Did you get my email I sent you the other day?
I didn't get your email. My email address has changed and you probably had my old address in your book. My FH email is updated and if you send something through taunton, it'll reach me.
my addy is accjimallen at charter.net
blue
I sent the email to your old address, I was just asking you if you had retired from framing.
I met with a group of guys that want to put up 5-12 unit condo buildings next year. They bought a restaurant and adjacent properties, they are going to mow the restaurant down and build these.
I built three of the guys a house in the last year, so I think the jobs mine of I can find enough help. At least thats what they told me. It's a big job and I was wondering if it sounded like something you may be interested in.
Hijack over.
Matt
was just asking you if you had retired from framing
I can retire from framing but I can never escape what I am, a Carpenter.
I'm still partnered up with Frank and he's running frame jobs right now. Frank would be very interested in helping you out with any project. Those condos would be a great thing for you to learn a few boogerin' tricks.
ring my phone at 586 292 7974
blue
aka jim
When I get a set of plans I'll call you, then I'll know that these guys are serious enough to look for help. Until then it goes in the maybe file.
You guys will be the first to know about it.
a lot of trusses are crap. you not only have to worry about straight up and down but straight in and out.
most the time I nail the ends and tack any joints, sight down it to see if it looks staight. I then continue getting it straight in and out. sight your tails 1st and cut any that protrude, ones that are short, the fascia gets tapped out.
I have never chalked a line, but that will work for up and down.what I do sometimes is string it, and then use the same string (after adjusting) to check staright in and out.