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Discussion Forum

Liquid Nails Explosion

Scooter1 | Posted in General Discussion on June 17, 2003 01:08am

I don’t know whether to put this in the Tavern, because of the legal and political ramifications; Construction Techniques, because as to how the Liquid Nails was installed, or here in General.

http://www.azstarnet.com/star/wed/30611EXPLOSIONLAWSU

Short story: Flooring contractor is apparently installing subfloor with liquid nails and a framing hammer. He puts so much liquid nails on the area that it becomes flamable (why wouldn’t he smell that and gag???); His air nailer sparks and ignites the Liquid Nails. The area blows up and he is dead.

Now the sad part. He is a 10 year independent contractor, no health insurance, no life insurance, and leaves behind a widow and a daughter who is sick.

OK, guys, whoose at fault?

Republicans: He is. He made poor choices and needs to take personal responsibility for his stupid actions. To heck with the widow and orphan and no insurance. Thats why God invented the poor house and welfare. Oops sorry, we got rid of welfare. Well there is always the poor house.

Democrats: The Manufacturer. The warning “Flamable” should have been in Red Ink at least one inch tall. Anyway, he might have been a minority and couldn’t read very well. This is why we need more Government regulation and a National Health and Life Insurance.

Green Party: The Housing Industry. We need to live in sustainable homes like teepees or tents or pole barns.

Anyone want to weigh in on this sad story?

Regards,
Boris

“Sir, I may be drunk, but you’re crazy, and I’ll be sober tomorrow” — WC Fields, “Its a Gift” 1934

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Replies

  1. 5150 | Jun 17, 2003 01:59am | #1

    This unfortunate accident happened in Tucson, Arizona just a few weeks ago. I live in Tucson so I have heard the accounts on the TV news and read about this in the local papers.

    It was the vapors from the Liquid Nails that exploded from a spark generated by a nail from a nail gun. The widow has hired an attorney and they are suing the nail gun manufacturer and the adhesive manufacturer.

    From all accounts of the Fire Department investigation and the other flooring installer who was injured on the job, the proper precautions were taken. The windows were opened to allow maximum ventilation because of the use of the mastic.

    The project involved raising a "sunken" living room by a joist system. The subfloor sheeting was being glued and nailed to the joists just as thousands of carpenters do every day in this country. According to the Fire Department, the vapors accumulated in between the joists and a spark detonated the vapors causing the explosion. The victim who died was hurled straight up into the 10 foot high ceiling and sustained head injuries. The other victim who was injured was heading out of the room to get supplies and was not severely injured.

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Jun 17, 2003 02:16am | #2

      Good Lord,  sounds like he was doing everything right for the most part...can't say I would have done the job any differently myself.  One would have to assume the vapors weren't overwhelming or one of the guys would have done something about it.  It's easy to second guess and say "well I would of done this..." but if the situation went down as you explained, I would have to say it could have happened to any one of us.  I'm not a big fan of lawsuits, and it does sound like it was merely a unfortunate accident...sometimes things really can be "nobody's" fault.  I hope someone is looking out for the wife and kid.  You just never know...

    2. MisterT | Jun 17, 2003 04:25am | #3

      Man, reading this makes a guy stop and think!!

      Tommorow I will start "raising" the floor in a garage to make a dining area and a laundry.

      There will be a 16" crawl space  and an open knee wall on one side.

      I will certainly have this in the back of my mind for a few days.

      This guys boss's insurance should take care of ther widow and kid(s).

      the manufacturer has some liability here also, but a huge lump sum is not the right answer either.

      As usual the answer is probably somewhere in between left and right and, hopefully for the victims, the issue will not be polarized by self serving interests on the extremes.

      JMNSHOMr T

      Do not try this at home!

      I am an Experienced Professional!

      1. geob21 | Jun 17, 2003 05:15am | #4

        Unfortunate circumstance but if you were liquid nails what would you do differently? If you were the nail gun manufacturer what would you do differently? Crap happens and you just can't protect everyone all the time. All nail guns spark. All flammable adhesive burns.

         Because someone drowns in a pool does not make the  water company or the pool builder liable because there was no instructions that  using both in conjunction may result in death.

        _________________________________________________If you were arrested for being a quality builder would there be enough evidence to convict you?

        1. MisterT | Jun 17, 2003 12:07pm | #6

          I guess my point is that this is what insurance is for.

          Liquid nails, the nail gun manufacturer and the contractor all PAY their insurance companies to accept the risk for this sort of unforeseen accident.

          All the BS about personal responsibility is just That, encouraged by the insurance company to help them get out of paying.

          Mr T

          Do not try this at home!

          I am an Experienced Professional!

          1. Totalhome | Jun 17, 2003 08:29pm | #8

            The GC here should have workers comp, this is what is it for. If the the HO didn't hire a GC with workers comp or hired the floor guy directly their Homeowners liability insurance will kick in, as it should if they tried to hire people without proper insurance.

          2. billyg83440 | Jun 17, 2003 08:49pm | #9

            I just don't get the lawsuit thing on this one.

            I can maybe see a suit against liquid nails, but the nail gun manufacturer???

            There may be a nailgun out there that is designed to be non-sparking. If so it'd require the use of special, extremely expensive nails, and would probably cost 6 times what a really good nail gun does. I've priced non-sparking hand tools, they cost much more then normal hand tools. A non-sparking mechanical mechanism would be much more expensive yet.

            A very unfortunate accident. Probably brought about by freak circumstances peculiar to this particular location that somehow concentrated the explosive vapors in one area. Circumstances that'd probably be difficult to duplicate. Might even be hard to duplicate in the same location on a different day.

            Tragic story, and no one expects to be putting their life at risk nailing down a sub-floor.

            Now, if liquid nails doesn't advise against an explosion hazard, and instruct you to shut off all pilot lights, ect.. Then, they could have liability for not warning of this danger (one that isn't obvious to the typical product user). Bug bombs have similar dangers, and if you read the package have lots of instructions to help you insure you don't have a spark in the treatment area during the hazerdous time period. I'd be interested to see what Liquid Nails warnings are.

            I'll admit, I've used liquid nails, but have never read the entire label, which is far too common in our society. It often takes more time to read the label then to complete the job. The litigeousness of our society only makes this more common, as the number of warnings keeps multiplying, and their actual usefulness keeps decreasing. It's easy to forget they may be warning of actual hazards, not just covering their behind in case something that theoretically could, but never has happens.

          3. FastEddie1 | Jun 17, 2003 10:22pm | #10

            special, extremely expensive nails,  No, just change a few materials in the gun, like the hammer.Do it right, or do it twice.

          4. billyg83440 | Jun 18, 2003 03:23am | #15

            Not an airgun designer, but all parts that move next to each other would have to be nonsparking materials. I think there'd be more involved then the hammer. To be truley non-sparking the entire outside body could have no exposed materials that could spark if rubbed or bumped against another tool.

            The nails couldn't be steel, as they may spark if they runs into steel (say your nailgun double fires).

            I just can't see any stretch of the imagination, except in the devious mind of a lawyer, which would legitimately find any fault with the nailgun manufacturer.

          5. Piffin | Jun 18, 2003 04:48am | #19

            I'm agreeing that the lawsuit is junk but the emotions that a lawyer can bring in front of a jury in a death case makes it worth their while to pursue. Tjhat's modern life for you.

            I wonder what kind of naiul gun it was? My Paslode shoots fire and the book with it says specifically not to use it in conjunction with flameables.

            I can see decals coming to attach to all these guns, "Warning, do not use in vicinity of flameable material - personal injuries may result".

            Excellence is its own reward!

          6. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 06:40am | #21

            I can see decals coming to attach to all these guns, "Warning, do not use in vicinity of flameable material - personal injuries may result"

            Does that mean a warning against using nail guns on wood?!?!?  That also sounds like something an attorney would dream up...Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          7. User avater
            bobl | Jun 18, 2003 01:32am | #13

            lawyers will go after everyone they can in a case like this.

            theory being any fault is reponsibility enough.bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          8. r_ignacki | Jun 18, 2003 02:36am | #14

            hey........................      GET STONED OFFA DEM FUMES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

            wweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

          9. billyg83440 | Jun 18, 2003 03:31am | #16

            Cases like this are why lawyers are so disdained by most people. Punishing a company that makes a safe product because of an accident., particularly one they warn against, which as someone else posted they did, is so assinine it only makes sense to other lawyers and judges.

            Yes, people should be protected from seriously defective products, but this accident wasn't the result of any product defect.

            Accidents happen. Life is dangerous, ain't nobody gotten out of it alive yet.

          10. RussellAssoc | Jun 18, 2003 04:41am | #17

               If there wasn't a design flaw, there would have been no explosion.  All these companies have liability insurance.  The plaintiff has a right to bring a suit.  Both sides will have good lawyers and a jury will make a decision.  If the plaintiff would win, and there's no guarantee they will, it wouldn't increase the price of either manufactures product 1/4 cent.

                Hope the widow and kids get a couple of bucks.  The father didn't, not have insurance because he was rich.

          11. tenpenny | Jun 18, 2003 03:41pm | #32

            "if there wasn't a design flaw there wouldn't have been an explosion"/??????????????

            That's a  bit off the mark.  Using a manual hammer and a nail will cause sparks, it would be somewhat unreasonable to expect a nail gun to be any different. 

            The only thing this whole thing points out to me is the need to have EXTRA ventilation when working in any sort of semi-closed space with flammable materials.  Even with windows open, it would seem that a fan (blowing fresh air IN) would be a good idea.

          12. User avater
            IMERC | Jun 18, 2003 03:47pm | #33

            Even with windows open, it would seem that a fan (blowing fresh air IN) would be a good idea.

            Blow the fumes where? In to other parts of the house or project and to more sources of ignition? The fan it's self can be considered an ignition source.

          13. tenpenny | Jun 18, 2003 06:10pm | #34

            If you have the windows open, put a fan blowing fresh air into the areas where you are working; the fumes will tend to blow out the other windows.  After all, this is what they do in mines.  Fresh air in = stale air out.  And if you do it from the start, the fumes won't have a chance to build up to a dangerous level.

          14. JohnSprung | Jun 19, 2003 01:05am | #46

            >"if there wasn't a design flaw there wouldn't have been an explosion"/??????????????

            >That's a  bit off the mark. 

            I agree completely. The underlying false assumption is that engineering can achieve absolute perfection.  Anything short of perfect is the engineer's fault, a "design flaw".  Sorry, engineers are human and live in the real world, unlike lawyers.

            -- J.S.

          15. RussellAssoc | Jun 19, 2003 01:07am | #47

               I'm not arguing to not be more careful. have more ventilation, etc.  But, I've used it for years and had no idea it could explode in such a destructive way.  That aside.  Generally I don't consider Liquid Nails much of a threat.  I believe it's basically a good product and doesn't present too much of a public threat.  In this case I would consider it a freak accident.  The people evidently don't have any money and they lost their bread winner.  If they were to be successful in a suit, it would help them tremendously and have little if any effect on Liquid Nail or we the consumer.  I say give'em a couple of bucks.   Better for everyone than paying them years of welfare.

          16. User avater
            bobl | Jun 19, 2003 01:25am | #48

            huh?

            what makes you think it will "have little if any effect on Liquid Nail or we the consumer" ?

            while I feel sad that they lost their husband/father I don't believe that they should be "give'em a couple of bucks"

            these kind of suits can have far reaching effects including raising workman's comp insurance and anything else the insurance companies can raise to cover their loss.  and could end up with insurance not being available.

            paying for negligience etc is one thing, just giving them insurance bucks is another.

            read a liquid nails tube it says extremely flammable and could be explosive.  guess those warnings need to be taken seriously.bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          17. RussellAssoc | Jun 19, 2003 01:55am | #51

              I say they have a right to bring a suit and if they prevail they should be paid.  There's no-one here who knows the facts, so being for or against based on the limited facts presented here means nothing.

               I believe this to be a very rare occurrence and a single lawsuit will have little if any effect on anyone.  Having the insurance companies investment portfolio's under perform in this lousy economy has had far more effect on my insurance rates, than this little potential lawsuit.

          18. User avater
            bobl | Jun 19, 2003 06:11am | #56

            Never disagreed that they didn't have a right to bring a lawsuit.

            disagree that they should just be given something (private money) because they lost someone.

            a single suit can have major efffect on someone.  lawyers in cases like this often go after everyone, could be liquid nails, the nail gumn manufacturer, the stores that sold the stuff, the GC the HO.  all these people aren't deep pocket folks.bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          19. RussellAssoc | Jun 19, 2003 06:57am | #57

               Suits are paid to the proportion of responsibility.  The small guy's insurance may pay a little or nothing at all, the deep pockets guy's insurance company maybe in trouble though.  I'm not quite the hard a$$ you are Bob, it's ok with me if they get a little insurance money.  It's better than having them on welfare.

          20. caseyr | Jun 19, 2003 07:27am | #58

            I guess I'm a little harder nosed about this than I am about a lot of other social issues.  I think medical insurance is becomming a real problem in part because the insurance firms made some bad moves and in part because the medicos have done a poor job of purging the small percent of the doctors that bungle things up and create too many malpractice suits (don't remember the percentages, but it is reportedly a small percentage of doctors that create the overwhelming majority of repeat malpractice awards).  I would like to see something more along the lines of workman's comp with perhaps just a little more generosity for genuine pain and suffering. 

          21. User avater
            bobl | Jun 19, 2003 03:07pm | #66

            "I'm not quite the hard a$$ you are Bob, it's ok with me if they get a little insurance money.  It's better than having them on welfare."

            the impression you are giving is that it is better that they get private money rather than welfare money.

            if i'm a "hard a$$" for not wanting to "give away" money because it's insurance company , then so be it.

            But don't paint me with the tag of "hard a$$" because i want to see responsibility placed where it should be placed. (at this point i expect you to have me blaming the guy who died.) and don't like that juries will give away monies because they feel sorry for someone and think that the people paying can afford it.

            the court system is there to provide redress (?).  and as someone here said, all the facts are not available.  those should determine whether any monies are due, not because we feel bad for the widow.

            As i've said before, i expect the lawyers to go after everyone. and it could be the GC gets the blame.bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          22. fredsmart48 | Jun 19, 2003 11:14pm | #77

            What is adequate ventilation for liquid nails. For that matter pl premium

            How do you tell when you have adequate ventilation. Does some company make a tool to measurer the explosive level of fumes of liquid nails.

          23. Piffin | Jun 20, 2003 04:11am | #79

            I heard that Q asked at an OSGHA safety meeting/class.

            He said that it means knock out all four walls and turn the fan on..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          24. RussellAssoc | Jun 23, 2003 06:21am | #82

              I agree completely.  The facts must be determined.  If warranted a suit should be filed and a jury will make a determination.

              I've been sued for no reason several times, if it's within pre-prescribed limits the insurance company pays it, if not they fight it.  I can't prevent people for wrongly trying to sue me.  None have done so successfully.  But, I have had the insurance company settle against my wishes, because it's their policy.

               I have also had employee's try to scam me and the insurance company a few times for injuries that did not happen on the job. 

          25. Piffin | Jun 23, 2003 06:33am | #83

            I've seenm that scam too. The guy decided to leave town..

            Excellence is its own reward!

          26. RussellAssoc | Jun 23, 2003 03:00pm | #84

               Some years ago a partner and myself had a small logging operation to support our commercial firewood business.  I had an employee come to me about 8:00 one Monday morning and said he had dropped a log on his foot.  I sent him to the emergency room.  He came back several hours later on crutches, and 3 broken bones in his foot.

               That evening when I came in, I had a call from a doctor at the emergency room, to call him.  I did.  He asked me if it was our employee who had broken his foot, I said yes.  He told me the foot was black & blue.  I said yes, and he said if it would have been broken that morning, it would have been only red.

               This guy and his brother-in-law had been changing an engine in a pickup truck, on Saturday, dropped the engine on his foot, waited 2 days, came on our job, waited a couple of more hours, and claimed injury.  I give the guy credit for being able to stand the pain that long, and felt good he had to.  Needless to say he didn't get the claim.

                  I did buy the doc a drink, he had no obligation to have called me.

          27. tenpenny | Jun 23, 2003 03:20pm | #85

            Doc actually might have set himself up for a lawsuit.  Doc had no legal authority to tell you anything unless your employee signed a release that you had the right to medical information.

            But I'm glad he had the cojones to call you.  It was the right thing to do.

          28. Manzier | Jun 19, 2003 01:34am | #49

            A suburb of Dallas, might have been Denton.  Happened in May I think.  Blinded the teenager in both eyes when it went off delayed reaction.  Of course all mama says in the newspaper is how boy was going to be an air force pilot, yada yada yada, what can we do, blah blah blah. 

            So using your theory of letting the lawsuit go through and paying the widow a "couple of bucks", in the above scenario, there is no personal responsibility to the teenager who was blinded and someone should sue God for making the potatoes that were used in the potato gun.  Right?

            Give me a break.

          29. RussellAssoc | Jun 19, 2003 01:47am | #50

               Making up another senerio and saying I agree with it is to make no argument at all. 

          30. Manzier | Jun 19, 2003 01:56am | #52

            I didn't make up that scenario, it was posted just a few posts before.  My analogy of your reasoning is pretty far fetched, but I used it to try to prove a point about law suits going after parties that shouldn't be held accountable for true accidents.  I don't believe that personal responsibility is just a company's or lawyer's rants to avoid lawsuits.  I do believe that people should take more responsibility for their actions, and that sometimes accidents happen that can't be foreseen and that targets for lawsuits shouldn't be gone after just because someone was hurt.

          31. RussellAssoc | Jun 19, 2003 02:06am | #53

              We are in agreement.  It's just that we don't have the facts surrounding this case to know if it is or is not a justifiable suit.   Believe me when it come to lawyers, no one hates them more than me.  Most are the true scum of the earth.

          32. Scooter1 | Jun 19, 2003 02:24am | #54

            One thing I do know about law is the issue is a duty. Does the manufacturer have a duty to the guy? The answer is usually foreseeability. If it is foreseeable that this could happen, then the manufacturer has a duty. It seems to me that this might be foreseeable, and therefore a duty existed.

            The next issue is whether the mfgr breached that duty of care. There is nothing on this but subjective feeling, so all you guys are right. I personally think that placing a warning on the tube is enough. The warning to use it with adequate ventilation seems enough to me. It might not to someone else.

            Finally is the issue of his own negligence, which will be offset agains the company's negligence if any. He was clearly stupid. I found it interesting that one poster felt the stuff generated heavier than air gasses which would accumulate in a sunken living room. ManOMan, that would be dangerous, and just having the windows open and not a $20 fan to blow that stuff out there seems fairly stupid to me. My pappy used to tell me "You can't fix stupid"

            No matter what your thought, the case does have settlement value and the company will throw some money at these folks to make this go away. Whether it is a couple of hundred thousand dollars or more, will be up to the company and the widow. But the case does have some value, if only for the costs of defense, which will be in excess of $100,000. I've been in enough lawsuits to understand that term, "costs of defense settlement".

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          33. caseyr | Jun 19, 2003 02:42am | #55

            There are lots of potentially explosive mixtures about.  I read about a malpractice suit brought by a guy who was having his hemroids cauterized.  Seems he let a rather massive fart and the gas was ignited by the cauterizing device, causing some painful burns to some rather tender body parts...  So, of course, he sued the doctor...

          34. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 19, 2003 09:33am | #64

            sue God for making the potatoes

            Hard to get a volunteer after sending the first two deputies to serve the subpena (can't take credit for that, it's a quote from my engineering geology professor).

            Trial lawyers will always go after the most ready cash, so, they'd go after whoever made the pvc pipe; the fuel source; and anyone else likely to settle rather than defend.

          35. tenpenny | Jun 19, 2003 03:57pm | #68

            That's the philosiphy that's killing us.  You have money, I don't, so I'll sue you to get some of yours.  That's not what the system is supposed to do.

          36. Scooter1 | Jun 19, 2003 06:29pm | #69

            What is a Potato Gun? I hate to sound stupid, but I don't what it is, what it does, where you buy it, why you would buy it etc.

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          37. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jun 19, 2003 06:45pm | #71

            You don't buy a potato gun, you make them.

            Go get a big Idaho baker and some carving knifes.

            Carve it into the shape of of a pistol. Then spray it with silver paint and use it to rob a bank. If they catch you, just eat the evidence.

          38. User avater
            bobl | Jun 19, 2003 07:08pm | #72

            a potatoe gun shoots patatoes

            they are made, usually from PVC bobl          Volo Non Voleo

          39. hasbeen | Jun 19, 2003 08:01pm | #74

            Do a Google search for potato gun or potato cannon.  You'll get all the basics and more.  We found a guy online who purchased equipment to rifle the inside of PVC for more accuracy.  Now that's enthusiasm!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          40. Scooter1 | Jun 19, 2003 09:06pm | #75

            And I'm sorry, I need to ask one more question on Potato Guns:

            And people want to shoot potatoes out of PVC guns because????

            You know, I live in LA, and maybe we have a lot to do here with NBA playoffs, Stanley Cup, our 1st Place Dodgers, and the beach and stuff, but really, why do people want to shoot potatoes out of guns? And what do they shoot at? Pidgeons? Squirrels? Are you guys out in the hinterland that bored that this is really fun?

            Regards,

            Boris

            "Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934

          41. User avater
            bobl | Jun 19, 2003 09:12pm | #76

            And people want to shoot potatoes out of PVC guns because????

            if you have to ask you'll never understandbobl          Volo Non Voleo

          42. hasbeen | Jun 19, 2003 11:30pm | #78

            Bored?  Are you kiddin'?  We've got potato cannons!!!  And little league, bowlin', prairie dog shootin', bears that live right in town, we know the mayor, property taxes are $350 per year, and we know where are kids were last night...  Only downside is that more Texans keep movin' in (but almost no Californians - it's too far to the mall for them).  LA?  Hasn't that place slid into the ocean yet?  ;)

            (Had to add the digs at California.  Wife's from Alta Dena.)Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          43. RussellAssoc | Jun 23, 2003 06:08am | #81

               There has been no fault established that I'm aware of.  Whether the victim or his family have a justifiable case and/or will receive compensation is as yet unknown, as far as I am aware.   First a suit would have to filed, the facts presented, and a determination made by a jury.  Are you aware that there is no fault on anyone's part and the widow and the victims family deserve nothing?

          44. User avater
            Longhair | Jun 19, 2003 03:27pm | #67

            seems everybody forgot about the wife and youngun.............................

  2. 4Lorn2 | Jun 17, 2003 07:54am | #5

    Yet another reason for not using "Liquid Nails". The stuff is highly flammable even after curing. Like stiff napalm. A grand thing to include in a family home. I hadn't thought about the vapors being potentially explosive, Hmmm another fuel for the potato gun, but this stuff has never impressed me. Partially due to flammability and smell I have switched to PLPremium. It has a down side, once cured you can't get it off anything short of chiseling or grinding it off, that often leaves me with black hands. It also works well with wet lumber. Something "Liquid Nails" has a problem with.

    1. Piffin | Jun 17, 2003 03:28pm | #7

      I'm PL fan too. Liquid nails is for DIYs at HD.

      Excellence is its own reward!

      1. User avater
        NickNukeEm | Jun 17, 2003 10:46pm | #11

        Pulled a few tubes of PL200 from the truck.  They're flammable as well.  The label for PL200 states that it is Flammable.  The label for Liquid Nails states that it is Extremely Flammable.  Both state that vapors may ignite explosively.

        On the plus side, the PL200 tube fits in my pneumatic glue/caulk gun, whereas a tube Liquid Nails won't because of the metal ring at the base.

        So I use PL by default.  

        I never met a tool I didn't like!

        1. MStehelin | Jun 17, 2003 11:18pm | #12

          I think the law suit is crap!!

           Accidents happen. Thats life. We can't control every aspect of the world. It is nasty lawsuits like this that  raise insurance rates and screw up our daily lives. I for one don't want to live in a lawyers heaven and the common man's hell.

          Mstehelin

        2. Piffin | Jun 18, 2003 04:44am | #18

          We were talking about PL Premium which is a far superior adhesive to the 200 -400. Polyurethyne..

          Excellence is its own reward!

          1. hdcruiser | Jun 19, 2003 12:44am | #43

            There is only one thing nobody mentioned here: the subfloor plywood should be screwed to the joists, not nailed. Also, a thin bead of PL is sufficient when screws are used.

            Kroozer

            Edited 6/19/2003 5:19:18 PM ET by Kroozer

    2. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 06:34am | #20

      Potato Guns!  Yes!

      We have two and they are a lot of fun.  We've only used hair spray although we've heard that lighter fluid works, too.  Are there other things you like better?Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

      1. 4Lorn2 | Jun 18, 2003 07:07am | #22

        Not that I would do something so dangerous but I have been told by reliable sources that a blast from a properly set up oxy-acetylene torch is the real deal. No mixing necessary. Just fire away. A well placed spark plug and coil can allow a large cannon, placed on a mount, to be fired from a safer distance. Having a drunken friend place it on his shoulder is a good way to allow for the practicing of putting flaming deaf people out. Keep a sturdy wool blanket and hose around for this eventuality. Poorly constructed cannons sometimes explode so care, safety glasses, welders gloves, a suitable place to play - An abandoned airfield is ideal. - and a paid up insurance policy are minimums. Makes all the other stuff look like a kids ten cent pop gun.

        I also wouldn't use the butane supplied for lighters. Not quite the same as the oxy-acetylene but still very impressive. Both lighter fluid and butane are better for smaller cannons because you need to mix in air and swinging the cannon overhead, in addition to being some much needed exercise, is evocative enough to add a flamboyant edge to any rowdy celebration. Not that I would ever partake of any such behavior.

        Not that I would know but I have been told that slitting old tennis balls and adding a bit of lighter fluid often gives you a lovely burning projectile. Quite hazardous but very impressive. Not that I would ever do, or be around, something so rash.Take care as you also are not anywhere near anything hazardous on "bowling" night with the boys.

        1. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 07:48am | #24

          Just so you wouldn't worry, I promise not to print out or try out anything that you may have mentioned that you may have heard somewhere, in passing.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          1. 4Lorn2 | Jun 18, 2003 08:29am | #28

            Nothing says "Epic Party" like flaming projectiles and a few drunks running around screaming and holding their ears while on fire until they get to the end of the dock. But then again I'm sure it was just a hallucination. Good times.

          2. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 07:36pm | #36

            I saw it demonstrated that if the cannon doesn't fire, you shouldn't try it again while looking down the barrel even if the projectile has been removed.  Nothing gets a round of laughter going like the smell of some recently burnt human hair...Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          3. FastEddie1 | Jun 19, 2003 12:51am | #44

            you shouldn't try it again while looking down the barrel  That very thing happened in north Texa this spring.  A suburb of Dallas, might have been Denton.  Happened in May I think.  Blinded the teenager in both eyes when it went off delayed reaction.  Of course all mama says in the newspaper is how boy was going to be an air force pilot, yada yada yada, what can we do, blah blah blah. 

            Do it right, or do it twice.

          4. hasbeen | Jun 19, 2003 07:38am | #59

            You mean it had a potato in it?  Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

      2. User avater
        CapnMac | Jun 18, 2003 07:15am | #23

        Are there other things you like better?

        Propane.  No really, just kidding.  Honest.  Would never suggest introducing a potentially explosive gas into a construct of random plumbing parts is to spit tubal legumes ridiculously long distances.  Not ever.  Not even with a glowplug tapped in for reliable, remote ignition.

        1. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 07:50am | #25

          Glad to hear that you, too, have a no-nonsense, cautious approach to life.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          1. dtaylor137 | Jun 18, 2003 08:13am | #26

            So I guess I'll use adhesive caulk in a similar situation and up my life insurance.

            Dave

            If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it is it still lumber?

          2. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 18, 2003 08:22am | #27

            have a no-nonsense, cautious approach to life

            Hard to tell, sometimes.  Gathering hands to help make a batch of home brewed double stout porter, and somehow the discussion turns to hypergolic binary fuels for accelerating pumkins ballistically . . .

            Maybe it's because I noticed that everyone else in my, for want of a better term, "peer" group has taken up dangerous midlife crises . . .

            Or it was too much gunfire & pyro at an early age.

          3. dtaylor137 | Jun 18, 2003 08:31am | #29

            Are you one of those pumpkin blasters? I'm about ready to make a melon canon. Boom.. aim for the rusted out '59 Cheve.

            Dave

            If a tree falls in the woods and nobody hears it is it still lumber?

          4. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 18, 2003 08:50am | #30

            Ballisitics?  Who me?  Internal or external (oops, the was "out loud").

            Actually, it was the holiday gourds that spawned the pumpkin acceleration discussion (I think).

            Of course, for serious potential for drunken injury, nothing (but nothing) beats a trebuchet.  Power tools; a mix of wood and metal working skills; desire to orbit things; dangerous knowledge that guys with not much more than axes and anvils built them . . . what a combination.  Also, a trebuchet will toss just about anything. Only question is where the tossed item lands.

            Saw on TLC (or somesuch like) that a Brit built one big enough to toss a piano (on fire, no less).  The pumpkin hurlers get about 150-200' out of theirs.  But for real distance on gourds, compressed air is the "go to" choice, 400' or more.

            Will admit to looking at acorn squash a time or two as a canidate for electromagnetic acceleration (wrap the gourd in wire tie wire, nice soft, ferrous steel).

            Oh, and why launch a tennis ball, when for just a little bit more effort you can lob the whole can . . . ?  Wait, actually, don't try that.  Especially at a party.  Twice (lid off can, had to be tried).

            Why is it that so many things seem to need adult supervision.  I'm 43 and never seem to be able to find an adult around . . .  

          5. User avater
            IMERC | Jun 18, 2003 01:42pm | #31

            Saw that same show, and they hit a duck too. Modern Marvels.

            Since I have never ever not even once participated in any way shape or form the afore mentioned exercises and I'm only 54 can I be the supervising adult?

            Rumor control has it that ground up soild fuel rocket motors have some interesting effects.  

          6. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 19, 2003 08:50am | #60

            can I be the supervising adult?

            Yeah, prob'ly same as me "oh, c'mon, it'll be fun, we promise . . . "

            Just as long as there are no scaling balconies in motels; jumping out of helos; or any situation where the question is asked, "Uh, we got any smoke?"

            ground up soild fuel rocket motors have some interesting effects

            Woo.  Probably does.  I'm not offering up my grinder, though (might be easier just getting sintered metal from the machine shop(s) . . . )

          7. User avater
            IMERC | Jun 19, 2003 06:38pm | #70

            "Uh, we got any smoke?"

            Camo or spotter?

          8. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 23, 2003 02:26am | #80

            Camo or spotter?

            Yes.

            Also as in "Don't run, it's only white smoke"

          9. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 07:45pm | #37

            Since I know that IMERC would NEVER do anything wild and crazy I think he would make for excellent adult supervision!

            Sounds like maybe someday we need to have an Accelerated Vegetable Fest...

            My son built a three foot high trebuchet (sp?) out of legos a couple of years back.  Even that little thing would throw a marble quite a ways.  Sons and I keep talking of building one big enough to throw bowling balls, toilets, large pumkins, etc.  As far as I know there's no law against firing such right in town...  Not that I would even consider doing such a thing.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          10. User avater
            bobl | Jun 18, 2003 07:52pm | #38

            did u c the pbs show where they built one?

            interesting devicebobl          Volo Non Voleo

          11. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 08:19pm | #39

            I've seen a couple of shows featuring them.  Don't know where.  They are very interesting to me, but I'm always interested in low tech ways of doing things.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          12. User avater
            NickNukeEm | Jun 18, 2003 09:54pm | #41

            American Woodworker, issue #63 has an article on how to build a model trebuchet, including an exploded diagram (no pun intended.)  Also, saw on the news a few years ago around Halloween where a guy who built a full-sized catapault pays tribute to Smashing Pumpkins by launching them (the gourd, not the band.)

            I never met a tool I didn't like!

          13. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 19, 2003 09:17am | #62

            IMERC would NEVER do anything wild and crazy I think he would make for excellent adult supervision!

            I'd hate to speculate just from the posts, but that might just be the sort of supervision that seems to cause all of those aches & pains . . . (the kind I keep discovering was "my" idea afterall--a Jimmy Buffett lyric about being the people our parents warned us about vomes to mind . . .

            Ok, and the comparing scars scene in Jaws also leaps to mind . . .

            Sounds like maybe someday we need to have an Accelerated Vegetable Fest...

            Ok, that has potential.  All kinds of potential.

            Sons and I keep talking of building one big enough

            After too many Junkyard Wars episodes, the strength of the arm is crucial, followed by the sturdiness of the hinge/pivot.  Then, there's the whole tuning the sling, and hook, and counterweight thing (so many fun hours of tinkering). 

            As far as I know there's no law against firing such right in town...  Not that I would even consider doing such a thing.

            Just tort law (no negligently hazzarding your neighbors with flying appliances--probably not good to have a "paper trail" of posts on one's crummy neighbor . . . <g>)

          14. frontiercc | Jun 18, 2003 08:59pm | #40

            CapnMac-

            400' on a compressed air gourd gun?  Small potatoes my friend.  For a REAL punkin chunker, 3500 feet is MINIMUM.  You're in TX, but if you ever get to Delaware the 1st weekend in Nov, check out these guys.  They take tossing pumpkins just a little too seriously . . . . . .  (And the festival surrounding these crazy contraptions is a helluva good time too, especially if you have a "pit" pass)

            http://www.atbeach.com/punkinchunkin/

          15. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 19, 2003 09:24am | #63

            3500 feet is MINIMUM

            Oops, memory (or the keyboard) may have failed me and dropped a trailing zero.

            One of the shows was at one of the festivals, and they had to limit the gas guys, as their field was only like about 3200' deep.  One of the contestants was almost DQed because they could not find the pumpkin on the other side of the fence in a timely manner.

            Still a long ways to pitch a gourd.

          16. frontiercc | Jun 19, 2003 02:59pm | #65

            No doubt.  The website I referenced is the 2nd location for that event.  Seems as the event grew in popularity, so did the distance that the pumpkins were sailing.  These guys were landing pumpkins in the middle of a 4 lane divided highway.  Obviously, that won't work.  So the event had to be moved for safety concerns. 

            Oh yeah- a quick drop in some liquid nitrogen makes the projectile a lot more solid and a lot LESS liely to break up as it leaves the barrell under tremendous air pressure.  Wonder if that would work on taters?

          17. JohnSprung | Jun 19, 2003 01:01am | #45

            >  But for real distance on gourds, compressed air is the "go to" choice, 400' or more.

            It's also the choice for consistent repeatable control.  The special effects and stunt guys use it a lot.  There's even a platform that throws a stunt person in the air when stepped on.

            -- J.S.

          18. hasbeen | Jun 18, 2003 07:34pm | #35

            Home brew, too?  You must be a good man.

            I haven't brewed for a couple of years and miss it.  Maybe next winter...Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

          19. User avater
            CapnMac | Jun 19, 2003 08:56am | #61

            haven't brewed for a couple of years and miss it.  Maybe next winter

            Winter was, in fact, an inspiration for getting started.  That and a ridiculously large collection of Groelsch bottles sitting around.  Picked up the habit before microbrewing was a commercial operation (and partly out of college poverty, particularily a paucity of good dark beer).

            Have been lazy, myself, too--too many local establishments (now) with all kinds of good flavors (Fuller ESP, Redhook Triple Black, St. Andrew's Stout) on tap.

          20. hasbeen | Jun 19, 2003 07:57pm | #73

            I like the dark beers, too.  Rogue Brewery's Shakespear Stout, Old Peculiar, Rodeo Stout, etc.

            A buddy and I used to slow roast grain in the oven, then brew up some good stout.  Brewing is such a good excuse to get together with a buddy and sample some product...Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

  3. migraine | Jun 18, 2003 11:10pm | #42

    Have a similar story that happened to a friend in Simi Valley, Ca.  He was doing paneling for a homeowner(who happens to be a fire captain or chief).  He was finished with the job and he was putting the recepticle outlets back into their boxes and accidentally arced the wires and blew the drywall off of the other side of the wall.  The mirred mounted on the wall fell onto a piano or something else.

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