To those who have lived with a cistern well could you please tell me about them?
I’ve a friend who has a chance to buy an old farm for a song, but it doesn’t have water.. In the past the local well drillers have sunk 5 differant wells and still it doesn’t have water.. even though it is right near the Mississippi and they have gone down well over 2000 feet water so far was so contaiminated as to be undrinkable or the well simply came in dry..
No nearby well driller will even bother to come out to discuss it..
This place is really wonderful.. Majestic views of the Mississippi with American Bald Eagles drifting overhead and a really neat old barn plus several out buildings in repairable condition.. The house isn’t much But That’s a blessing because he wants to build a timberframe and he can use the old house to live in untill the timberframe is finished..
It has several acres of apples as well as pastureland for his wifes horses.. Because it doesn’t have a phone or electricity or water it’s been priced really really cheap.. (which is what he can afford) He’s OK with living off grid and thinks he can use solar and a standby generator for electricity. Cell phones should work and he can buy bottled water for drinking (plus the nearby town has a city provided well house) But his wife wants to be able to grow a garden which will require more water than he can haul. ( and those horses)
I was thinking of a cistern but don’t know much about them..
How for example to you prevent it from becoming a misquito breeding ground? What about debris? and other junk?
How many gallons are needed for domestic use such as toilets etc..
Replies
A cistern simply stores water from a low flowing source until needed, but there is still the requirement of a source. Are you talking about cisterns that work off of rain water?
Trout,
Yes We have a large amount of roof space which if we could capture the rain water in gutters and off the driveway should provide plenty of water for his needs other than drinking and cooking..
We had a cement block cistern under part of the house I was raised in on a farm in western Ohio. Although we had a well, we needed the cistern due to low flow. I remember that most of the year the men & boys used the outhouse to conserve water. We hauled water from a creek to water crops/flowers and for the animals.
All this was 40+ years ago.
Take a look at these links and I think you'll find a wealth of info about current practices.
http://www.google.com/search?q=rainwater+collection+storage
T
Well, any cistern, or in this case, the term of art is "rainwater collection system" needs traps & filters & screens (as frogs following skeeters attract water moccasins . . . ) Controlling how much air the water is exposed to also helps limit algae growth.
Now, down Austin way, the drill is to use 500gallon bladders in some sort of enclosure (concrete tub, or perimeter foundation wall sorts of things). These are conncets to the gutters & run off with flexible fittings through a trap. But, the use is genrally for irrigation, not domestic use.
Which gets us to your second question. How much is domestic use?
Well, that depends on the domicile, and those within. Metro use could be 2 forty gallon showers; 4-8 2-5 gallon flushes; 1-3 gallons for dishwashing & toothbrushing; 2 -3 gallons for personal consumption & cooking--per day, per person. That's not cistern-friendly at all.
Or, if you lived like on a boat, where potable water is twice was fuel costs, you can get by on 2 gallons potable per cap per day (but, that also relies on being able to use all the seawater one could desire, too).
Being a rural, off-grid, sort of situation, a bit of planning will help. Can't just use Incinolet toilets, unless you can generate plenty of electricity. That suggests soem form of "composting" toilets. Now, all that's needed is water consuption and water for washing. Which actually suggest two levels of treatment of the stored water. Which is 'do able" it just will take a bit more planning (and judicious use of the purple piping to not mix and match).
Might be worth a bit of googole searching on ozone bubblling for water disinfection, as ozone production is consistent with photovoltaic, wind, & other off-grid generation strategies. (It also means not havign to stock, and maintain, chlorine for water treatment). The Potable water will likely need some form of reverse osmosis treatment; the "mere" wash water can probaby get by with just straight filtering.
step one ... drink beer ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I use a rain water catchment system. It is 10,000 gallons the minimum required by the fire insurance companies. If you keep the system in the dark you do not have to worry about algae. You have alot worse stuff to worry about like leptosporidae. I use a few particulate filters and an ultraviolet filter. The University of Hawaii has a big brochure about using the systems http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu
Check it out. I use about 20,000 gallons per year.
Jason
Jason99
You are the first to mention insurance!
We hadn't even considered that!
Ten thousand gallons seems like an awfull lot, is that just in your state? (what state do you live in if it does)
Hmmmmmm, would a pond count?
I live in hawaii and all the homeowners insurance companies require 10,000. I know people who have up to about 30,000. Its really not as big as one would think. There are something like 4.3 gallons per cubic foot. Thats a 15' by 7.5' tank or a 18' by 5'6". People out here uses CMU blocks (not recomended in our siesmic zone), Gunite, poured concrete, plastic, steel, and redwood tanks.
I think the biggest issue is how you get your water and how often. If you use 10,000 in three months time but collect rain and it only rains in the spring you will be out by fall. If you get water delivered by tanker truck I guess it depends on how often you can get a delivery. If you have a slow pumping well you just need to keep up with your recharge rate.
Jason
Jason99
You had me scared there..
All of the fire trucks in the area have at least 5 or six thousand gallons of water on them. plus most of the rural ones have pumps on board whereby they can refill from a lake, creek, river, or stream while pumping..
We have rain from spring to fall, only on rare years like this one does it really get dry during the summer.. We get a lot of snow during the winter but unless the pond is especially deep it could freeze solid.
I still haven't figured out a thing about insurance but at least I now have hope..
The vast majority of fire apparatus carry 750 to 1500 gallons of water. Larger rural tandem tankers carry 2000 to 3000 gallons, and 3000 is a LOT of water for a tandem truck to be hauling (12.5 tons plus the truck, and sloshing around).
Many fire departments will fill pools, but the water will not be potable. Any truck more than a year old will produce brown, rusty, cloudy water, even if recently pumped in. I would not want to drink anything out of my department's trucks, that's for sure.
Google 'Mother Earth News' for the Homestead Cistern. There's a wealth of good information from state university extensions, state water quality departments, and homesteading sites as well. They are viable water supplies IF you're conserving water religiously, and you build them correctly.
I still haven't figured out a thing about insurance but at least I now have hope..
I know all about it if you havent found the information .
Tim
Rule 1} If it's yellow, let it mellow. If it's brown flush it down.
Rule 2) Don't drink it.
Rule 3) Buy a transport tank or tip the local water hauler very well.
Rule 4) There will be a drought.
Rule 5) Start doing the wash when there's a thunder storm if the cistern is small. No cistern is actually large enough.
Are we there, yet?
http://grantlogan.net/
I lived on a cistern for six years in the caribbean, as did most folks on the island I lived on. As far as water quality, any problems are greatly reduced if you make a decision not to drink or cook w the water. You could also treat the water to make all or a portion potable. Something along the lines of chlorinate, particlate filter, carbon filter ( to de-chlorinate), RO. Just remember RO permeate usually attacks metal,,,,,,,,,,,,, anyway, the potable thing is probably a whole nother post. I, ironically worked at a water treatment plant at the time, so I would bring (free) water home from work.
They can also breed mosquitoes and some folks kept "guppies" in the cistern to eat the larva. I used to keep( when I remembered to) a little chlorine residual in mine to keep the place from becoming wild kingdom.
The biggest thing is to have large enough cistern to catch the rain when it does come. At least where I was living we had some pretty dry spells, the cistern would get low, then it would rain like the devil and the thing would be overflowing. Also, check out the price of trucked water in case you need to get a load. This is your fallback option.
Water conservation, as you would guess, goes a long, long way. I'm still a real water use mizer. I figure it is a good habit to stay in. ( Now I tell myself I'm extending the life of my septic).
Cisterns are real common in many parts of the world, and as others have directed you, you'll likely find a lot on the web.
You mention dry holes next to the Mississippi river,,,,,, I can tell you about quite few dry holes I drilled right next to the ocean!!
H
inperfectionist,
Thank you for that tip of keeping guppies to eat misquioto larva. I suspect other fish would work as well. perhaps something that could endure our winters up here..
Since I posted it I found out about the insurance requirement whereby 10,000 gallons are needed for fire insurance reasons.. I've got to check that out.
Accordingly we are now considering some sort of pond. It would need to be relatively deep to keep from freezing solid in our winters and killing all of the stocked fish..
The local town has a pump house whereby residents can get potable water for free so we believe drinking water and cooking water won't be a serious issue. What the heck, we'd need to go into town for supplies anyway!
You think the guppies are funny, but dig this, the gov (ministry of health) had a program where as they gave them to people for free. Guess it didn't occure to them to give out some kind of screen to cover the openings.
H
inperfectionist,
Misquitos need a really tiny size to get thru but leaves and other debris would easily plug up a screen.
If a plugged screen prevented hundreds of gallons from getting into a cistern I can see why somebody would prefer fish to screens.. I don't know how many fish a cistern could hold nor do I really understand much of the bio needs of various species of fish... fish pee or poop how much can a cistern handle before it's a problem? How many fish would it take to eat all the larva? would the fish need an additional source of food other than larva? where does that come from?
I'm excited about the prospect of doing the research..
Frenchy, you talk of potable water for drinking/cooking. I assume that that means that you're washing with the cistern water.
I have no experience with rainwater collection storage. However, I do have personal experience with drawing water from lakes and rivers. In my opinion, it's easier in the long run to make the source water potable for the entire house usage, otherwise you're running (relatively) untreated water in your shower, toilets, washing machine, etc. That poses a health risk.
Certainly I wouldn't treat water that was being used to water the garden, but the outdoor supply must not be connected with the house supply.
Forget chlorine. It doesn't kill cryptosporidium or giardia. UV lights that kill e.coli and other bacterium, when combined with a 1-micron-absolute filter (to remove cryptosporidium) are one possible solution.
If you've got some money to burn, then you could go with a whole-house membrane filter like Zenon's.
As for being off the grid, install a 3 or 4 thousand liter propane tank, a propane refrigerator, etc., and you're off to the races.
Having said all that, you should definitely google "rainwater collection storage" as per a previous poster.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
This is a pretty big subject.
He would be living in the bush and I have done it .
Ive lived partially in the bush too and I have a cabin with out water right now.
Many good things have been mentioned already but theres much more.
A shower/bath can be had with three gallons of water and a sponge. It can be heated by the sun or just air temp. It can be taken in as little as a square wash tub inside or a bath in an elongated one sitting down. Add a drain valve and hose through the wall or floor for the up most convience. You can place a galvanized bucket painted black full of water with a piece of glass over the top in the sun and your bath water will be ready in an hour in moderate temps. A bay window inside the house works very well.
Build a porch that is whiz accesable for boys and men.
An out house uses no water and a incolet uses very little . A simple porta potty can last for several days . The woods work really well except when its raining or really cold but it wont stop the process.
Water collection and storage is a must . A cistern well captures surface water only . A cistern is really a water storage which there are so many different kinds and ways.
I set my cabin up on RV principle . Storage water on my RV is 45 gallons and us three can get by on it for 3 days . We could use it in 2 days or could make it last 1 week. We wouldnt smell the best however. Water is operated off a dc pump and its slow but thats good.
I haul water in a moble tank @ 300 gallons and dump it into a cistren thats really a concrete septic tank that was bought new for this purpose . They make tanks that fit in small trucks or even cars from 50 to 150 gallons . If you are traveling back and forth to work , this is the best other than catching rain water . I would not haul water for a horse as they drink more than I use period. You can easily haul more water than you use if you freguent town.
Next is a trailer tanker that you pull and it has a pump mounted on it where you can suck out of a lake or creek if you want to. Simply transfer it from a pond thats a short distance for a garden or horses. Thats cheap to do after investment .
Some people hire the fire department to bring a full load of water but you have to have tanks for storage .
There are people in business of hauling water too.
Tim
Frenchy - there are a lot of cisterns here locally, mostly old houses... Water is $35 for 2,000 gallons, as there are a few great springs folks own and the demand is there. I would look into your local water hauling market - $350 a year isn't too much to pay for water when you consider the up front savings.
Many of the cisterns here are located within the house, basement or buried. I personally would buy a few ag tanks for the basement & pipe a fill to the outside. It was always a bummer when we ran out of water & had to wait for the truck - so two tanks and a switch would be a sweet setup.
As for the garden, a separate rainwater collection system off the roofs of the buildings could store quite a bit of water, and there is always the greywater option. Screens on the inlet keeps the mosquitos out.
Cisterns for potable water should be closed, not open, to answer the question about mosquitos. Your friends can use rainwater catchment for the horses' water, then get potable water delivered to an underground, sealed cistern from a water truck for themselves...or they can buy a watertruck instead of a well and haul their own at great savings.
Friends of mine built an Earthship house off the grid and use their gray water - it's ALL gray water - to water the garden in the house in winter and also outside in summer. They use soap that degrades to essentially fertilizer for the plants. The bathtub is on a raised platform to facilitate gravity flow.
Their Biolet toilet uses PV to run the fan to evap the urine. It doesn't smell the slightest bit and the product is compost for the garden.
Is it close enough to the Mississippi to irrigate the garden and horse water?
Lots of people here live on cisterns. It's a habit, carry a plastic tank in your truck and stop by the city well house on your way by. You can keep up pretty good. We had one in one house we lived in. All we ever did was use bleach for purifying and a filter at the tap. That was back in the late seventies though. People are more afraid now. You could save a lot of money by boiling drinking and dish water. Not that big of a deal. Low water supply in the winter is a pain in the azz to keep from freezing too.
One other source for stoves and self reliance stuff is marine supply web sites. Alcohol stoves and ranges I would suspect are cheaper to operate and easier to deal with then LP gas.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip to it..
Gunner,
No there is a state highway between it and the Mississippi.
The nearby town has a free well which suplies drinking water to many nearby folks but I doubt that hauling water for horses and the garden would be at all pratical. We were thinking of using the cistern as a source for both of those as well as showers and toilets etc..
There are plenty of stainless steel tanks originally used to hold milk that local farmers seem anxious to sell at really modest prices.. I saw three with for sale prices just driving around and they seem to ask between $80 & $150.00 for 500 gallon tanks and as little as $250 for 1200 gallon tanks (a lot of old dairy farms are available in the area right now)
this was an excellent article:
http://www.taunton.com/store/FHArchive/FHarch_Purch.asp
it was in FHB a couple of years ago, you should look in your back issues and read it.
carpenter in transition