Load bearing wall – ceiling joist question.
Senna
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
The load bearing wall which I am removing is offset 18 inches from the load bearing wall in the basement below. Therefore I need to locate the beam and posts on the same line as the bearing wall below. However the ceiling joists lap on the wall I am removing. Installing new ceiling joists is problematic as they need to be 16 feet and getting them up in the attic would be extremely difficult.
Is there an approved method where I can sister shorter lengths to the existing ceiling joists?
Replies
hire a P.E. to address your question
If there were an approved method it would come from a Professional Engineer of record for your project; not from this forum.
par for the course
Did you not mean to suggest using plastic somethng or other?
ignore the first response, something has crawled up is back side and hes anrgy at the world.
sistering like what your suggesting is not advisable.
Why are you trying to move the beam back(or forward) to line up with the basement wall? esthetics or are you concerned about something specific?
"Why are you trying to move
"Why are you trying to move the beam back(or forward) to line up with the basement wall?"
Rather than installing new joists in the finished basement ( to support a post) it would be easier to move the beam so the post lines up over an existing block wall.
Load bearing wall
In all probability, there is a way to do what you need to do, but it is not going to be some simple carpentry fix. As has been suggested, your best bet is to get some professional /engineering help.
It's not possible for anyone on this site to advise you about something as complicated/complex as this. Even if they were qualified, there is no way to provide them all the necessaray information necessary to advise you.
good luck.
This is why others are bowing out of giving any advice with something like this. It is to vague and there are way to many variables to make any type of assesment.
If i were you, I would ask around for recommendations on competent contractors and have someone come up with a plan to do what you are wanting. Check references and be sure they are licensed and insured prior to hiring.
best of luck.
It used to be a common refrain on this forum to ask the OP for more information, photos, sketches, etc. That seems to have gone by and by and now the forum's mantra seems to be: hire a PE. Now don't misunderstand me... I'm all in favor of professional engineers. Especially so since I was one in a former life. But they are not the logical end to all problems. And, being somewhat conservative in nature, they are often not the most creative thinkers on the planet.
Senna, your situation is intriquing. The first thing that struck me is how is the floor holding up the existing bearing wall? I suspect that you are leaving out some critical details. So I would suggest a drawing that describes the situation as it is and another showing what you want to accomplish. Some photographs would help. Sure, the members of this forum are not going to be acting as engineers of record, but many have year's worth of building experience. Some are actually creative thinkers. Ideas generated in a forum such as Breaktime might have to be refined by your PE, but taking a viable idea to him/her will save you a lot of time and money.
This forum can't make magic happen. But it is a place to share ideas and help others to think through their problems. There is always some negative thinking that inevitibly comes along in a venue such as this. But that can simply be ignored.
So what.
sapwood wrote:
Sure, the members of this forum are not going to be acting as engineers of record, but many have year's worth of building experience.
Years worth of building experience has never (and will never) qualify one to practice as a professional engineer. The OP is not asking a building experience question; they are obstensibly asking a structural engineering question. Further, the question they are asking is a poor one at that because the problem isn't presented clearly. You might choose to waste your time teasing it out of the O.P., but it certainly isn't a prerequsite for participating in ths formum. My advice was (and still is) for the OP to present their issue to a professional engineer who IS willing to tease it out t (because they will be getting paid to do so) AND who can actually solve it (which they will actually be qualified to do). Given the scope of presentation, I believe that is the most effecient and responsible approach. You may call that being negative, but I call it being responsible.
BTW, for someone that advocates ignoring posts you personally feel unproductive, you sure don't practice what you preach.
Imitation's the finest form of flattery
mark122 wrote:
...but we need to know what we are giving an opinion on.
Why? It's never stopped you before.
Forum thoughts
mark122 wrote:
sap, how dare you! how dare you insinuate that moving a stud, or spakling a wall doesnt require a stamped engineers design!!!!
Mark,
I'm sure that you know that I'm not advocating the no PE approach in this particular situation. For one thing... no one here (except the OP) has any idea of what the situation actually is. But I'd just like to emphasize that even though this isn't an engineering forum, it is perfectly appropriate to discuss structural issues. Heck sakes... the avoidance of such issues would lead to a pretty boring bunch of topics. It would be even slower here than it is now. That would be real death.
Another point I'd like to hammer on a bit is that I think the best solution to anyone's construction dilemma will be attained through consult with a variety of professional types. A seasoned builder in conjunction with an open minded PE can come up with a better design than either could working independently. Having filled the boots and shoes of both those professions, I am certain of this. For this forum to turn away from those seeking help because of a perceived lack of expertise, defeats the purpose of the group entirely. Certainly it is not OK to give structural engineering advice if one is not an engineer, but it is perfectly OK for non-engineers to give construction advice and suggest ideas for structural modifications that an OP can take to their local PE.
two thumbs up from me!
I'd jump in if....
....you'd give the details. Span on each side of the wall to be removed. Over all span. Location of the wall to be removed. Location of the wall below. Etc.
Drawings
I have attached the architects drawings with the engineers notes in red. The location of the new beam is in blue.
So basically all we have to do is the increase the length of the 11 foot ceiling joists on one side out a foot or so.
It would appear....
that in addition to the new beam in blue, there are 3 2x10s going in where the existing wall is being removed. Is this correct??
No. The original plan was to put the beam in the same location as the wall that was being removed, and add additional floor joists in the basement to support the post. We decided it was much easier to move the beam to take advantage of the wall in the basement. Hence the need to lengthen the ceiling joists.
What size cieling joists? How much existing lap? Where does the lap occur? Exactly how much is the wall being moved? Cieling joist spacing? How high attic?
the obvious question
If you've already had an architect and engineer involved on your project, then why aren't they addressing your concern(s)?
From what i hear you saying, i would more than likely attempt the following.
Once your new beam is in place, if not already removed, take down the sheet rock between your new beam and your old wall. Temporarly brace your kitchen ceiling and then cut some ceiling joist in the cavity where you have taken down the sheetrock. This should give you the room to move your new ceiling joist up in the attic without busting up walls and corners. Place your ceiling joist running parallel to the old ones, glue and screw (or nail) together. Your new ceiling joist will rest on the new beam and on the exterior wall the sink in on.
You more than likely have electrical running through your old ceiling joist so you will need to disconnect the lighting/smoke detectors or anything else there and re run it once your new ceiling joist are in.
that should keep you sheetrock work down to a minimum.
senna,
I woould build a beam in the attic above the joist and hang them with some Simpson straps. Done it many times.
KK
There are probably a half-dozen different ways to effectively solve this problem, but it requires having an actual or mental picture of the situation, better than what we have.
The solution maybe to do nothing.
Once the wall is moved, the ceiling joists that rest on the new wall will cantilever over it. Assuming that there is no storage in the attic the combined live and dead loads on the ceiling will be 15 psf. That means that the cantilever will be bearing the one end of the joists on the other side. If these joists are 11 feet then the load on each cantilever will be 165 # if they are 24" oc. I've done rough calcs on this senario. If the joists are 2x6 the solution is simply to make sure that the laps are nailed with 4 16d nails. Nothing else needs to be done. The cantilever will support the ends of the other joists. I can't do more with the information so far. This may be why the engineer didn't specify any detail.
Yeah, I'd consider that plus adding some strongbacks, maybe every other joist. (Assuming this is an attic one can crawl into, dragging, say, 6-foot pieces.)
Your take is pretty much what I've concluded, Mike. Course, no one can really conclude anything without more information. Nevertheless.....
It seems like a lot of worry over nothing.
It sounds like you may have a collar tie on your hands.
Not many roof ridges are structural, the floor deck of the attic and it's floor sheathing acts like a collar tie, and the wall below the lap joint is apart of the system. I would be careful, the work you do may force the exterior walls to deflect under the pressure of the roof itself, add some snow and it could be disaster.
Thanks for the response. I showed it to the structural engineeer and she said that's all that's needed.