I thought there was a thread on this once, but I can’t find it.
I’ve always assumed that my policy will be that I won’t loan tools to employees.
On the last job, I hired on a guy I know who is a good drywaller. It was more or less understood that he was only going to be around for the extent of the job and then go on his way.
I didn’t really deal with him as I would an employee. I was extremely flexible on when he worked and I let him borrow tools to use on a side job.
He’s decided that he wants to keep working for me, even if it means roofing (which it does). So, before I explain to him that he will not be able to continue borrowing tools (I’ve already mentioned that the hours will be less flexible), I want to make sure that I’m not out of line. (Already, we were inconvenienced on this last job when my screw boss wasn’t around because he lost it when he borrowed the cordless drill).
So, I guess the pros to loaning tools is employee morale. And the cons are wear on tools, lost tools leading to expense and inconvenience, and probably some liability issues(?).
Am I missing anything?? Should I let employees borrow tools??
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Replies
In general Rich, I would say NO.
I especially wouldn't lend anything I wasn't prepared to have lost,broken or stolen.
much simpler to say " sorry---I don't lend out tools "
Rich,
Before going out on my own I was a maintenance super in commercial buildings. I never lent tools out. Owning my own deal I only have one employee, my brother and he drives the van with the tools home so I guess I am lending him tools. I vote no in your situation. DanT
About the only way to make this work is to just say no, the only fair way to apply a policy is no exceptions. Unless you are prepared to set some firm line or level of tool it is easier and more effective to just not do it. Different if only employee is a family member. If you have other employees in addition you are asking for trouble by treating one different. I think that an employee who cannot understand that is probably of questionable worth.
Tool loaning/borrowing is generally a bad deal. I have a friend who is fairly big time operation compared to me. He always tells me that don't buy it if you can rent it, don't rent it if you can borrow it. I always worry about something deciding that it is it's time to die while I have it borrowed or loaned due to no fault of the borrower. I used his laser setup for a drop ceiling and the zipper broke on the pole bag. Still have not got a new one put in but gave him a better bag. BIL borrowed his Hilti to bust out a hole for sump pump and bit broke off in chuck. Turns out owner's crew had been using the chisel bit with a hammer. Still feel bad.
I have several customers I would loan tools to and some friends/colleagues. I just like to own my own toys. You never know when the person who loaned something may have an unexpected need for it either.
Mostly no. There's only one guy who I pretty much don't care if he borrows some of my stuff. I don't care because I know he's going to treat it good, I know if he loses it he's going to replace it, and I know if I want it back before he's done all I have to do is say so. And he's got some toys that I might need someday, so it's a two way street.
The minute someone on a job site starts thinking that your stuff is community use, you'll lose track of it. I had someone elses helper this week decide I probably wouldn't mind if he just chopped a couple of pieces on my trim saw, and walking out to the garage to ask me apparently escaped him. I minded. It was Hardibacker.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
I think all tools that are normal to a nailbelt are the responibility of the employee, any tool more general work is the responibility of the employer, skill saws, lasers, chop saws etc.
A sub, on the ohter hand is responibile for all the tool for their specific job
. Have one good guy who treats tools really well and knows that we all make a living with tools, Id loan him tools.
On the other hand, one of my former employees asked to borrow some tools for a home project. tools were definatly hard worked. found out a week or so later he ws using them on a side job.
A homeonwer we were doing a major addtion to asked one weekend to borrow a hammer drill. reluctantly I said yes,completely trashed it.
so generlly no I dont loan tools out, but I guesss I do make acceptions
Certain tools yes, while they remain on the job. If they're doing work at home it will depend on the tool as well. If they are doing work on another job, it totally depends on the person. As a trim carpenter I'm a fanatic about my high quality freshly honed hand tools and everybody knows it. Only my fingerprints are on those tools and everybody knows it. Loaning tools is really subjective for me.
Never for side jobs. You want to be a contractor? Buy/ rent the tools. It's part of the cost of doing business.
I have loaned tools for employee's home use. Overnight or for a Sunday if we worked on Sat. If he shows up without returning it he was sent home to get it.
During the Fall, an employee borrow a drill and jigsaw for a couple of consecutive days. He told me he was installing a new kitchen in his apartment. He was re-using cabinets taken off on of my remodeling jobs. Xmas time I found out it was a side job and he had used some other tools, (biscuit joiner, chopsaw, compressor and nail gun) overnight, without asking. He knew the answer would be "no". I fired him on the spot. It was surprisingly easy!
Haven't been asked to borrow tools since. HMMM.
F.
On one job my brother was working for me. He asked if he could borrow my brake for the weekend to do a little side job. I said OK and friday off he went. Come monday, no brother. seems he underestimated the scope of the project and missed the whole week- with my brake!
A couple of weeks went by and he asked again.
Give a man a fish and he eats a meal. Teach a man to fish and he eats his whole life. Give a man your fishing pole and you go hungry!
Hmmm...I sense that you guys are trying to give me a hint....
I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something...
Thanks!! No loaning of tools.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Back when I was an employee - way, way, way back, about 35 years, my boss used to preach "The right tool for the job".
He borrowed one of my sharp chisels to do a little touch up - he said.
I found him whaling away on it with a framing hammer on some stair stringers. Split the wooden handle right off the tang.
So much for talking the talk and being unable to walk the walk.
That said, when I work with my brother, he can use ANY tools I have.
And, I'd probably loan some to you, too, Rich.
Say no up front to lending of tools. Make it a part of the briefing to new hires. They can be disappointed up front if they have borrowing in mind. If you lend tools, you will eventually run into the problems mentioned in other postings or you will just have to say no at some point for whatever reason. Handling the problem up front leads to less disappointment and saves your tools. If your employees misuse your tools, get rid of them (the employees) or, if that is not practical, learn to live with it. One of my pet peeves is that some folks can't seem to avoid bending the table on MAGs. I keep a Bosch for myself and insist that nobody touches it. They don't like that. It is the only saw with a good table, even after several months. All of the others, bought at the same time, are defective in one way or another. I also have a Max nailer that only I use. They don't really like that either. Too Bad.
Loaning tools to work on a side job is a no-no. I would understand while he was not actually an employee. But not at all once he is an employee.
Since you know he does side jobs, and will be tempted to lie to you if you loan them to him for personal use only, as an employee... then maybe it is best not to loan him tools at all.
If you decide to loan, you might consider the dollar value of the extra employee morale, compared to the cost of the tool, plus wear and tear. Will the extra morale make up for the extra cost and liability by producing extra labor/quality/profit ? Will the extra morale make your life/job easier ? Again, is that worth the extra cost and risk ?
And if you don't want to look at the crude dollar sign... Ask yourself if it is worth it to you to give away that tool to make that person happy ? On a pesonal basis. Would you buy that tool, and give it to that person ?
To answer a question you didn't ask... It is going to be very difficult for him to adjust to the stricter schedule of being an actual employee, The schedule and change of tool loan policy will not be the only things he has to adjust to. This will be more difficult than if he'd just started as an employee immediately. You will not make it easier by being a buddy first, employer second.
If I survive, I have survived.
But if I have enriched someone else's life, I have succeeded.
quittintime
I loan tools all the time. Never had a problem with abuse or theft.
It's helps a person and is good for my karma.
WWJD
KK
Books are a different matter.
"To answer a question you didn't ask... It is going to be very difficult for him to adjust to the stricter schedule of being an actual employee, The schedule and change of tool loan policy will not be the only things he has to adjust to. This will be more difficult than if he'd just started as an employee immediately. You will not make it easier by being a buddy first, employer second."
Yes. I am aware of the potential difficulties. It will be interesting.
He is a terrific worker. When I hired him, he told me he needed $12 an hour. I ended up paying him $15 because he is clearly worth it. If he is as productive on a roof as he is hanging/finishing drywall he will be a bargain at $15.
But he borrowed my cordless several nights and over a weekend. He pretty much required (or just took) flexible hours.
AND (the worst of all), he solicited business from my customer. He had asked me who was doing the suspended ceiling and I (without thinking the consequences through) said that I wasn't aware of that having been determined yet. Next thing I know he had given my customer a quote (customer is doing his own ceiling).
So there's a few things we have to set straight before the roofing begins.
All of this is because he is relentless in his pursuit of work (as least he has been the four weeks he's worked with me). He makes contact with everyone on the job site. It's weird, by everything I've seen the past four weeks, he should be on his own doing framing, drywall, ceilings, etc. (he is a skilled STO installer, but not certified). But when I called him he was working in a factory paid by a temp agency less than $8 an hour. For awhile he was also working at Applebee's.
I think he will spend the summer constantly in conflict with the job I have for him and his efforts on side jobs. It will be interesting.
I will be surprised if he lasts six months.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Six weeks.
Two or three issues you have here Rick.
I loan and borrow some tools from others on an even footing with myself.
I have worked for small outfits that loan tools to employees, but as others have said, NEVER for side jobs. There is no way in heaven or hell, let alone this earth, that it is right for you to provide the tools for him to underbid you on a job, and that is what he is doing.
But there is a positive answer to this whole thing for you guys. He appears far too ambitious to be an employee. I would sit him down and offer to help him set up properly as a subcontractor and pay him appropriately on that basis. By helping him get ahead, you earn a small bit of loyalty, which is non-existant now, and you pay by the jobn with no committment to him so you are on a more even basis and won't be disappointed if he fails to show committment to you. And if you want to share your tools with him, you can do it on that same professional basis. Let him rent the tools at the same price it would csot at the rental agency. Then he can learn their true value.
One crew I used to work fro - a partnership - hada sheetrock lift that they loaned out all the time since they didn't use it much. They were always running around finding it when they needed it. Time wated for a no profit item. When I left them and started in competition with them, they were still willing to loan it to me but I paid them a fair rental price which I passed on to the customer, and renturned it promptly. They were quite suprised and the light came on. They started cahrging some rent on it and since the rent was by the day, the unit came back to their shop all by itself. Two problems solved.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"He appears far too ambitious to be an employee. I would sit him down and offer to help him set up properly as a subcontractor and pay him appropriately on that basis. By helping him get ahead, you earn a small bit of loyalty, which is non-existant now, and you pay by the jobn with no committment to him so you are on a more even basis and won't be disappointed if he fails to show committment to you"
OK. A bit more background. I've spent the last couple of years wanting to do roofing and not doing a very good job of getting roofing jobs. As of this month, I am now in the Yellow Pages under Roofing. This guy should be on his own, but not in a trade that's going to do me as a roofer much good.
Also, he has gotten himself set up at least once in the past. He had insurance (liability, if not WC) and he had a couple of jobs. He failed to sustain it.
If he fails to show committment, it won't bother me.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
OK, but do you need to encourage him to steal customers and jobs from you while providing the tools for him to accomplish the work?
I didn't think soo.
We're on the same page here. You know that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I never let help talk to the HO concerning any aspect of the job, never mind solicit work. Thats obsurd. You need to have a talk with that boy. Maybe he was setup in the past. It makes one wonder why if he's has all that capability, he cant make a go of it. some people just cant handle the business end of it.
I wouldnt put my business in jeopardy by letting an employee have a go-round with the HO. That will look bad for you and leave you to do damage control.
LOL! This place is so great!
Thank-you all! But have no fear. He will clearly understand my expectations, and I won't hesitate to let him go if he can't cooperate.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Rich ,
this guy already tried to steal one of your customers,maybe it's the Italian from north jersey in me but I'd be slapping the taste outta his mouth before I'd be hiring him.
He'll be doing this to you the first chance he gets,it won't matter what you say to him when he starts working for you.He will try to take anything away from you he can.
Now, how long have you been trying to get roof work? And your going to let the fox into the chicken coop with you?
And I think your to nice a guy, so you'll think he'll be a nice reasonable guy too.
Vince Carbone
Edited 3/14/2004 6:55 am ET by Vince Carbone
We lend out tools all the time to our long time employees. They take better care of them than I do. It is well worth the cost in terms of morale. I wouldn't do the same for a new hire.
We also lend them out for side jobs. These side jobs are usually for work that we don't have time for or for customers that we don't want but that our employee has a good relationship with. The understanding that we have is that this work will not interfere with our normal working hours and our employees do know which side of their bread that the butter is on.
I understand the reluctance that many here have to lend out their tools but we have evolved this policy over twenty five years and for us and our employees it works.
My answer goes against most of the answers I've read(and any good business sense, which I often fail to exercise), I lend out tools all the time. Not only do I lend them out but I often let people keep them, reason being I have too many and I'm trying to own less of them as well as trying to be a nice guy. Oftentimes it is more expedient to buy a new tool quickly if the needed one is not on site and I'd rather see something used than it sitting in my toolbox. I've found sometimes people will also figure out a new trick or jig or something that contributes to everyone's productivity, if they have the tool at home and are using it on their house or sidejobs they are becoming that much more proficient and can show us all something or maybe do something I don't want to do myself.
-Ray
Seems like the only guys I'd lend tools to without thinking twice about it don't usually need my tools. Guys who don't own nice tools don't appreciate nice tools. Guys who don't earn their living with tools rarely respect tools properly. Most guys with nice tools don't ask to borrow my tools cuz they don't want anyone asking to borrow their tools.
Some guys just don't have a clue about tool etiquette. Before I got the new trailer everything would be on or in my service body truck. Someone would need another circ saw and I'd send 'em to the truck. I happen to look out the window and they are rifleing through my glove box looking for a pencil while they're at it. This stuff would happen all the time. Break their tape and go grab a new Fat Max from behind my seat! What gives? That's my frickin' truck man.....get you azz out of there. How bout I go digging through your sheetbox? Those are pictures of MY wife in the visor man...not yours.
I can totally relate to whoever it was that was talking about the guy cutting hardi-backer on his trim saw. Miter saws and stands seem to be magnets for every idiot who happens to be on the same site. Plumber couldn't figure out why I was pizzed when I caught him cutting 4" PVC on my Makita slider with a brand new Chopmaster on it. I buy nice tools to make MY life easier, not everyone else's.
Neighbor borrows my shop vac to clean his cellar. I make a point to let him know I just put a brandy new filter in it. He returns it and puts it away in my garage himself. A week later I go to throw it in the truck and almost throw my back out. The clown put it away with about 60lbs of basement crap in the cannister! So much for replacing the filter for me like I thought he might.
I think that was the last tool I lent out.
Tools fall into two categories: 1. Those that are so inexpensive, so hard to hurt, or already so hurt, that they can be loaned to most people. 2. Those that involve power, precision, sharpness, or other such qualities that don't get loaned except under the rarest of circumstances and only to persons of known competence. I have one BIL and one neighbor on my category 2 loan list.
Here's a way to approach the loan request: Tell him you never loan tools, but since it's a personal job at home, you'll help him with it. If you're such a good friend that I'd loan you the tools, then you're a good enough friend that I'd help you do the job. That logic should flush out the real personal work from side jobs.
-- J.S.
Well, today, just after lunch, my employee gave me two weeks notice.
So if anyone had money on it...looks like just about 3 months.
He never tried to borrow any tools.
He never stopped being very friendly to everyone on every job, but I don't think he ever tried to solicit any business.
He is really hard on tape measures. I've never seen so many tapes break in such a short period of time. (He started bringing his own).
He gave as his reason that he felt he was insufficiently compensated for his hard work. That was at $15.00 per hour. (He made more money in that three months than I did!!).
Maybe he felt insufficiently appreciated, as just before lunch I had to (again) explain to him that shingles are supposed to be laid in a straight line.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
my buddy Joe .... one of the worlds best lead carps ...
was just offered a "real job" ... as he's been playing self employeed finishing up a remodel that the bankrupt company left him outta work ... and the customer outta workers ....
Starting pay for a 15 or so year experienced carpenter guy/craftsman that has run $500K jobs ...
$18/hr.
probably get up to $20 within the first year with a new company ...
tell yer guy to take a long walk off a short roof!
He was being well compensated.
That ... and he made more than me for these last coupla months too!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
""""(He made more money in that three months than I did!!).""""
i know the feeling!!!!
i had a guy with me for 2 years and i couldn't understand why i was making so little when i did my taxes. then i realised i was paying it all to him!!!!!
so i'm back to working on my own again and subing out stuff again and its working much better.
You guys have got some bad formulas if the help is making more than you, unless youare not doing billable work too.
You should be billing your time working alongside him, his time, profit on his time, and profit on materials. The only way I get the feelong they are making more than me is if I take a week off or it is a temporary cash flow reversal due to large materials purchases or slow paying customers.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good thread. Anyone who works their backside off to invest in themselves by buying quality equipment has an understanding of their value. Loaning them out is simply too expensive in the long run. I'm too particular with my tools to loan them out so I make it known to any and all, where the tool goes, I go. And the tools only go where they'll make me money or to work on my family's projects. I can list on one hand the number of people I've loaned tools to in 20 years and they were people I trusted TOTALLY to do the right thing if they damaged or ruined a tool.
The ethically challenged employee who steals work from the employer has no room in my life. I've worked both sides of the fence and sometimes side work is a natural consequence of the job. If the employee comes to the employer first to ask if there's a conflict about doing the work, then it might be fine as long as it doesn't interfere with the progress of the job. On the other hand, if the employee is actively soliciting 'side work' by talking to the homeowner without the employer's knowledge, s/he isn't worth the employer's loyalty nor continued employment. It saves a lot of confusion to address this during the interview stage (along with your policy about loaning tools) than to backtrack later when a problem arises.
yes i know that now!!!!
the last few years have been a steep learning curve!!!!!
"You guys have got some bad formulas if the help is making more than you, unless youare not doing billable work too."
LOL!!
Yeah!! Bad formulas!!! But they keep getting better and better!! Pretty soon I'm gonna be downright expensive!!!
I do great financially when I can bill time and material. But I prefer bidding the job so there's no surprises for the customer at the end (just surprises for me!).
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.