A five years old log cabin is having is having a big problem with the logs checking. It appears that the logs must have been fairly green when the house was built. Owner’s attempt at caulking have failed as the checks get bigger. The house now leaks air and water to the inside. Solutions?
Edited 8/10/2008 8:47 am ET by Bubbadean
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Replies
It should have caulk appplied during construction at critical joints in thee corners, use the same caulk. Sitka-Flex is one I have used. But any thing OTHER than silicone that is a poly or tri-poly ( such as Geo-cel) is yout best recourse now.
Perma-chink has a line for just this type of issue as well.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
I've been using the coloured Geocell on mine. Only problem there is that to get other than clear or white, I have to order a case full, use six tubes, then three years later, the rest are all stiffened up
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Grant was getting us geocel by the case, but we used a heck of a lot of it..interestingly, we mostly used clear, but we also had Desert tan ..after a short time Dale and I noticed that the Tan was failing. I dunno if it was a bad batch or all of the colored was inferior to clear..
I did a "D-style" log home in NC with lots of sitka-flex, I hated the stuff..recently patched some chinking in a customers home here, with Perma-chink sanded..they had it left over ( more traditional style hewn logs) and it was a pleasure to use.
My logs are well past checking stages, but I used whatever I could get my hands on in a hurry ,LOL, mostly Lexel I brough with me from NC. Now that I can't get it as readily, I am sticking with geocel for 80% of my jobs and home. I have been hooked on Big Stretch for the other 20% or so.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
permachink works well, good stuff to but can it absorb $$$
we did several here with colored Vulcum and backer rod...
bulk container not caulk tibes and pressure vessel...
so far so good... (8 years (maybe 9) or so now)
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
yah, that;s what I used when I was out there.
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permachink or Vulcum???
ran over and looked at two of the oldest ones ('99)
looking good... sound too...
that mega drought we had kicked the snot out of a lot of log structres here...
Vulcum to the rescue....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
The permachink.I was out running around earlier when you called.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
there were a couple of people here that are headed up to Arcadia and we were hoping for an unofficial recomendations guide of sorts...
it was a long shor
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
acadia is the most visited ant pk in the country I have heard. There will be plenty of info around when they arrive. I am as much of a tourist over there as anybody else.If they want out of the tourist trap stuff in Bar Harbour, tell them to head for Southwest Harbour on the other side of Mt Desert Island
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they already left...
I'll pass it on given the chance....
they were looking for less touristy if they could get...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Fanfold and vinyl siding?
There are specialty log home supply companies with caulks made for this sort of thing. Some are expanding toolable polyurethanes, others different stuff. Some applied under franchise, others for sale online. Permachink is one name I recall. You can google under that name and follow leads.
Are there a lot of log cabins built in your area? If so, ask who builds them and what his source of supply is.
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Bubbadean
Someone should have told you that wood will check when dried too rapidly.. the only way to prevent checking is to air dry them slowly and minimize the stresses as they dry . Keep them shaded out of direct sunlite and slowly reduce moisture.. A 12 inch diameter log could take as long as ten years to dry that way without checking. some species are even more prone to checking than that.
What happens is wood shrinks as it dries.. natually the outside dries first and the center last.. that means the outside is squeezing the still moist inside and sooner or later the fibers give up along the grain and a split is formed called a check.
Nothing with prevent it if logs are forced dried (like going through a heating cycle)..
It will get worse as more logs dry completely..
Good news is checks don't weaken a log structurally. They may look ugly but they don't weaken anything..
Bad news, chaulk or anything isn't a good remedy.. You see wood swells as it absorbs moisture during the summer and shrinks as it gives it off during the heating cycle.. sooner or later the chaulk will fail leaving a mess on your hands..
What's worse is what's happening to the log ends.
Cut ends absorb a lot of moisture and that soaks into the logs and since constant soaking in water cause wood to rot the center of the ends is well on it's way to rotting..
Finally I'd be surprised if all that chill you are feeling is coming from the checks. It could be the logs are moving around and the seal between the logs has opened up.. it more likely is the fact that wood is a lousy insulator. Look between the logs.. how narrow is that area? that's all the insulation you have if it's six inches (about) then you have something like an R value of six..
Please don't forget that 1/2 of the log is outside and thus is conducting cold into the room while 1/2 is outside conducting heat out..
Log homes can certainly be romantic but as a durable structure they are woefully lousy. Insects, decay, and the normal life cycle of humans cause them to quickly return to the forest floor.
True that log homes have disadvantages and need to be carefully built to be liveable. It sounds like this one was not well done.But why don't you just tell the guy to tear the house down and build something else? He is looking for solutions, not criticisms - and it is not his house. He is just tying to help a client with a problem.Logs are insulators, not conductors. The wood most log homes is made of has an R-value in excess of R 1. That is not as good as cellulose insulation ( same material as logs but different form) at R 3.5 but still acceptable to most of us who choose log home living. It is the openning cracks that allow infiltration that is the problem, not the insulation value. Logs also provide some thermal mass as well which can be beneficial depending on the climate.You have a problem with the idea of fixing this with caulk because the checks move, but the right caulks will have the ability to expand and compress 300-800% Once adhered in place, they rarely break seal. It is new checks and seams opening that need further treatment over the years.
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Is it me, or is he getting even MORE obstinate in his old age.?.gezze...
For one thing we have'nt a clue what style log home, or species, but Frenchie is a pro, no matter what.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Piffin
I will grant that I don't have a whole lot of knowledge on the latest chaulk to be marketed. I know all chaulks move a lot when they are new and fresh. I also know that they will all dry out at some point.. (if they didn't they'd remain fresh in their tube forever!)
The rest of my comments are really meant for those considering the choice of log homes lurking around. You'd be amazed at just how many of them are out there..
I certainly understand the appeal.. I too looked very seriously at a log home and what I found doing my research is in condensed form what I repsponded with.
With regard to the thermal mass arguement.. don't forget that is a 2 edged sword.. Since warmth tends to migrate out I'm technically wrong to say that cold migrates in, however it gives an image of what's actaully happening..
The cold on the outside of the log is a negative thermal mass if you will, while the heat on the inside is a positive thermal mass.. all that's preventing heat from instantly escaping is the R1 value you mentioned.. Since logs are round the contact at the narrowest point is all the R value available..
If there is six inches of contact then we're talking about an R value of 6.. something not acceptable by most building codes.
Piffin, I love the look and imagery of Log homes. Honestly! I wouldn't have so much wood in my home if I didn't love the look of wood. However the real practical aspects of log homes means that is a building technique that should go the way of the TeePee.
My logs ain't round.
They are hewn to approx. 8" thick, and have been that way since mid 1800's. They don't get cold.
LIVE in a log home, you'll find that you know a lot less than you think you know about them.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,
OK so you have a R 8 wall.. not exactly up to my R30+ wall <grin>
I have spent more than enough time in friends log homes to understand them..
Like I said, I love the look and romance of a log home. Some log homes do prove the exception to practicality. Clearly yours does.. The vast majority however don't..
Yeah, but I don't NEED R30..you do. See? It ain't the same for every one, we don't all live in the Icebox of the Conus.
Alot of what you espose is valid ,FOR YOU, but has little benefit to the others that play along..Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,
You mean you wouldn't like to see lower heating bills and lower cooling bills? Insulation works for both you know..
With basically free fire wood, and NO A/C..my last ele. bill was 50 bucks..
So, I can't see much to save.
Sure we froze the first winter, till I sealed and reworked some loss areas, but now its not an issue..the Rvalue of my walls has little to do with heat loss/gain. I don't expect you to understand the thermal inertia and dynamics of how my house works, as I can't understand yours from where I sit.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Another fine thread from somebody looking for simple help derailed by one of frenchies obsessions...
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And I got sukked in, my bad. He's like a whirlpool..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Piffin
I waited untill several good responses were given before I responded.
Yeah, both his and mine were seriously addressing it. That's several.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Sphere,
Then we're both clearly outside the norm.. You because you are able to use wood to heat your home and don't A/C it , me because, well I'm wacko <grin>
However some principles do apply.
I spoke about how thermally efficent my house was.. In the summer it can be near 90 degrees outside with humidity so high you have to wring out the air before you breathe it or you'll risk drowning. Come inside and in a short time be pleasant and comfortable. My neighbors run their A/C units virtually constantly for the last 2 months, we've only needed a total of 10 hours on our 3 units (they're tiny window units stuck in the walls) last night we wound up under the covers huddled together for warmth after we closed all the windows..
I take pride in not having to turn the heat on untill Holloween (remember we've gotten over 24 inches of snow in the past on holloween) I'm a wimp.. I don't like to get too hot or too cold so things really are pleasant in my home.
That's what proper insulation is capabale of..
"That's what proper insulation is capabale of.. "
And THAT is totally irrelevent to the OP's query.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Wouldn't shellac solve the OP's problem? (G)
If he drinks as much of it as someone appears to have, it may at least make him not realize his problem.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
" last night we wound up under the covers huddled together for warmth after we closed all the windows.. "There you see part of the benefits of thermal massing form logs. close my windows and the place holds even temp without needing to be all chilled like that.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I'm pretty sure I have more thermal massing than you do.. plus all of mine is inside the insulation envelope rather than attempting to act as a thermal mass and a insulation barrier both.
Frenchy your house has nothing to do with this question.
Believe it or not some people feel very comfortable and
at home in a cabin.
Are they the most efficient and environmentally friendly
structures-no.
Neither is yours.
Henley.
As long as a log home's inefficency is understood then my point is made.. That's the whole reason I talk about log homes at all. Unfortunetly there are a whole lot of wrong ideas based on the romance of a log cabin..
I think your point is you like causing havoc with a simple caulk ( not Chaulk) question, and try to be a hero too much.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
But that wasn't the question. Talking of efficiency when
it's already built (and dried out enough to check) is closing
the barn door after the cows have gone.
Plus if you want to Analise how efficient a log cabin is, one
has to consider the time and place of their inception.
If one is trying to homestead a cabin is a very efficient choice.
Your going to have to clear the land anyhow, assuming you want to
grow something to eat. So two birds with one stone.
Trees where more then plentiful.
So with basic skills and tools can you find a simpler (thus more efficient)
way to go from tree to wall?
Certainly not timber frame. That requires a whole different level
of skill, time, tools, and materials.
Being a starving, brave (perhaps foolish) soul, you would build only
as big as you absolutely needed. Thus between plentiful wood to burn
and a very humble footprint R-values are very easily overlooked.
One can assume you wouldn't be popping Marvin's in there. So few
and small windows help keep the heat loss low also.
Throw a loft up on one end, to sleep in the hot peak and you
ready to settle back and start having kids to work the fields.
It's the romance hearkening back to these roots that your under valuing. Sure modern Lock-N- Logs don't compete with the best
of modern building, but that's not the point.
Timber frames had their time and place also, but it has passed also.
Does that mean we shouldn't build them? No it means acknowledging their
short comings and embracing their beuty.
Hey, your longest post ever!
I knew ya had it in ya..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Hey, your longest post ever! It was so long spell check gave up on me.
Prepare to be made aware of timber framing now !!
Here we go again..polish off the ignore button.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
You gonna play that thing?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Ln-SpJsy0
Henley,
You must consider more than the question of the OP.. There are a lot of lurkers out there.. People who pop in but don't post.. They may be interested in plumbing or roofing or even what material to build with.. I regularly get E-Mails from some of them but what of those who read but fail to respond to anyone?
Where else will they get that information?
The dealers and builders who sell log homes won't explain things to them out of fear that saying the wrong thing might cost them a sale. Besides they are sold on the concept.. It's difficult for them to accept the short comings..
Back to your post,,
I agree that at one point in this countries history Log homes had a real place.. Further log homes are a really romantic concept and as an occasional retreat or hunting cabin sort of place they do certainly have their niche.
However the concept of living in them in todays expensive energy enviornment critical issues as I've pointed out need to be carefully considered.. Who else is saying those things?
With regard to Timberframes,, They've been able to adapt to modern efficency concerns. In leu of the tradional mud and daub filling between timbers they've attached SIP's panels to the outside. Thus leap frogging tradional stick framing in efficency while retaining the appeal of timbers..
ICF's and SIP's are vastly superior with regard to efficency over stick building No doubt at some point to be replaced with some other newer technology. but as long as 98% of homes continue to be built with tradional stick building techniques we are bond to consume more energy than we need..
Please excuse me if I take every oppertunity to tout those advantages. Hopefully some will listen and seriously consider those options.
There is a separate folder dealing with those issues.
Anyone embarking on building their own home had better
have the gumption to research the basic fundamental
advantages and disadvantages of any alternative building style.
Buyer Beware
The bottom line is if your intent is to aid visitors and
or questioners the best thing to do is try and answer their
question as clearly and directly as possible.
Side topics ( like ours at the moment) seriously undermines
that process. As far as timber frames place in modern building echelon-
They require much older and more mature tree stock. Of
which we are in seriously short supply.
The frame these trees are made of basically redundant considering you can make the whole house out of SIP's without it.
You built yours out of a nostalgic love of the style.The
same motivation that inspires modern log homes.
otherwise you could have done it more simply.
Having built and lived in our log house at 8000 ft in the Rockies for several years I have considerable experience in these matters.
Our log house is built of 18-21in logs, with no chinking or insulation between the logs. Just very tightly cut longitudinal grooves (Swedish Cope). We have no difficulty in heating it-only turn the heat on in late October, And off in April. We heat with Propane, and wood stove.
Now-the science of logs. First, they are excellent insulators. Our house stayed above 29 degrees las winter when we fled the snow and went to New Mexico for the winter. The heat was off-just solar gain. Second, logs transmit heat radially, not tangentially, so if there is no air infiltration between the logs there is little heat transfer. Third, checking is inevitable unless the logs are kiln dried and then used in the desert. Our logs were deliberately chosen green so I could anticipate the shrinking and settling. Checking has no effect on heat transmission- only air infiltration if the check spirals from the outside to the inside. Easily dealt with with trap rod (Backer rod) and chinking or caulk. I prefer Permachink sanded.
Lastly, my log house will be standing 200 years from now, so that is actually more ecofriendly than a stick built house which will statistically not make 50. MY trees will be around a long time.
Log houses only rot if improperly built- big roof overhangs and protection from splashing under the log ends are requirements-both easily accomplished in the design phase.
Stef
Edited 8/11/2008 11:49 am ET by fatboy2
Thanks for your positive contribution.BTW, I lived in Grand County for about ten years
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We're in Garfield CO, up in the White River Forest.
I forgot to mention, all the science I mentioned is extracted from the Research done by the Canadian Log Builders Assoc. which can be accessed on the Web. They did many studies about heat transference, Insulating capacity of logs, rot prevention, etc. Technical but interesting reading.
Stef
I keep teasing myself with thoughts of moving back out there.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
at least visit....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
will do
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's IF you can get thru:
http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=97578&catid=188
won't be any time soon, that I know of anyways.That link hasn't loaded in three minutes so I am killing it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
In short, he's supposed to get snow tonite or tomorrow - up to a foot.
left foot or right foot?Tell him to put his feet on the ground and quit holding them up in the air, then the snow would be so deep!Seriously now, I am seeing signs here of early fall. some weeds that normally wait till end of august to go to seed are already done. The mtn ash trees are full of red berries already, and some leaves are showing colour already
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have a great house to sell you, except it's "all rotten and drafty and cold" if you decide to return.
Stef
The problems with modern log homes seem to come from the fact that people have ditched the old proven ways in favor of modern materials and production techniques. Please understand -- I am not against modern materials, but in using them with logs, you are on the experimental edge.My cabin was built by old-country Fins 70 years ago. They scribed and fitted the logs -- a lot of hand work, and then seated them together on oakum. We now have only a few air leaks, mostly around door and window frames. I am going to redo the oakum. One thing about logs is that they ALL check. This is why they should be coated with a breathable finish. Sealing them only holds in moisture and encourages rot. We had that problem because my grandmother liked a shiny finish and used varnish. Removing all that and repairing the rotted out sections with epoxy was a lot of work.J
Yes, you make excellent points.
Much of what you say seams to be either ignored or misunderstood
by some people.
Lets move this to a new thread so the OP can keep getting
pertinent info.
Henley
RE researching data, not everybody knows how to find the best sources for such discusions. Many stumble around looking for information whereever they can find it..
You are both right and wrong in your previous posting..
First where you are right. The use of timbers is not needed to construct a house made from SIP's and Yes, I did do it for my love of the style. not because the use of timbers was required..
Where you are wrong is it's not needed to use old growth or really mature trees to timberframe.. a suitable sized timber could be less than 30 years old..
and second there is not a real shortage of mature old growth hardwood trees.. I purchased mine as part of the harvesting of over mature white oak trees from one farmer.. White oak will start to rot from the inside out after about 200 years thus it's important to harvest them or they fall down and decompse adding to the carbon burdon we have..
The differance between a log home and a timberframe home are two fold. On a modern timberframe the timbers are all on the inside of the insulation envelope and thus really do add to the thermal mass. Whereas a Log home the timbers both add and subtract from the thermal mass since it's acting at the same time as insulation.. Second, Used thus the timbers add dramatically to the structural strength of SIP's or ICF's and as history has shown use longevity is directly tied to the degree a home is over built for the demands made of it..
" On a modern timberframe the timbers are all on the inside of the insulation envelope and thus really do add to the thermal mass. Whereas a Log home the timbers both add and subtract from the thermal mass since it's acting at the same time as insulation.. "You make it clear that you have no idea what thermal massing is or how it works
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Bubbadean,
I have done many log cabin construction and restoration and they ALL check to some degree or another. What I use is Perma-chink. You can get it smooth or with a "sand" texture to look more like old style chinking. You can also get it in a variety of colors. The important thing is to make sure that the crack or check is CLEAN so that the chinking material will adhere to the wood and NOT old caulking or just plain dirt/debris that may be in the area of application. If the checks are deep use some "backer rod" to fill most of the void, it comes in different sizes from 1/4" to 1". The Perma-Chink is paintable also.
Tennessee: 6:30AM to 5:00PM Eastern Time, Monday through Friday
1605 Prosser Road See Map
Knoxville, TN 37914
(865) 524-7343
(800) 548-3554 Fax: (865) 523-9475
This is the location that I use. They are pretty easy to work with. You can get it in 5gal. buckets or large caulking tubes which ever is easier for you application. Good Luck. Bill D. Quality Wood Chips.