Frenchy,
First of all, regardless of ones immediate microcosm mature
hardwood trees are increasingly in short supply. A very cursory
study of modern forestry will make that clear.
In fact the history of timber frames world wide is very closely
related to the depletion of forests.
The Mid Evil timber wrights of England are often sited as some
of the true masters. And part of that is due to their having to work
with increasingly smaller and lower quality timber.
The development of North America opened huge new tract of
land covered in mature mixed deciduous forest, and yet again Timberframing prospered.
It is a demanding art, and it requires substantial trees to prosper.
This thirty year business has come up before.A thirty year old oak
is not likely to yield much more then an Eight by eight, hardly
a massive top-plate.
Sip houses are engineered to standards equal to every other
modern code so no they do not need additional beams to function.
Replies
Henley
SIP panels are actually 200% stronger in all plains than the equivalent stick built homes. An 8x8 timber is large enough structurally to exceed the requirements of a 8 foot bent. In addition it meets fire code requirements to stand without being rated.. in a stand alone application.. In my application I went with 6x6 on 4 foot bents.
True my top plates are 6x12 but that is purely a matter of taste. Effectively timberframes can be considered as purely decorative in todays world.. Yeah! they do add massively to the strength of the house but the numbers get so large so quickly timberframes really could be considered purely decorative.
With regard hardwood.. In America's hardwood forests white oak is one of the most proliffic hardwoods and currantly is under no threat by any invasive bug.. Unlike Chestnuts, elms, and most recently ash.
Ash currantly is in such abundance due to the threat of the green ash borer that the market has tanked and it is selling now for the price of trash wood for pallets! Around 20 cents a bd.ft. That makes it cheaper than sheetrock! Timberframes made of Ash would be extremely cheap to make (assuming DIY) and I can tell you from experiance timberframing is not a difficult to master skill. Not with modern power tools.. If a guy like me with no real prior skill managed to build a 5500 sq.ft. double timberframe by myself it's not something beyond others skills..
All this evaded the real point of the earlier posts.
Log homes are inefficent.. there are ways to enjoy the look of log homes without the troubles..
For example Log siding over SIP's or ICF's or if it's just the massive look of wood that is sought either a post and beam or a timberframe..
Hey dude, if i remember correctly you were the person severely lacking in knowledge a few months back when you were trying to convince people that log homes rot from the inside out! Do you remember your ill informed argument? Do you remember me who lives in a log home in Edmonton, Alberta?For anyone else, do not listen to this guy about log homes, he knows jack squat! Log homes are not inefficient in comparison and there are no problems if they are built well. End of story, move on Frenchster.
Edit: Posted here during a moment of temporary insanity.
Edited 8/11/2008 9:04 pm ET by fingersandtoes
That is why his own thread - keep the damage from false info localized. Think of it as an abscess instead of a systemic infection
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Getzky
I do remember the discussion we had and your information is based purely on the romance and myth of log homes not their practical nature. Since then there have been others writting to this site about problems. I've also had two E-mail discussions about log homes and seen further issues brought up..
I have granted that some homes can be exempt from the problems mentioned but far from all log homes. Log homes do have a place however as an energy efficent, durable, construction technique they are lacking.
Just to add on. I have sided over 2 log cabins, because RE agents feel that regular siding would enhance the value!
It seems that people like the look, but hate the maintenance of them.
there's a lot to be said for a log cabin with siding - particularly old ones that have weathered for 150 years or more - have the ambiance of logs showing inside and the rain/weather/wind shedding ability of some sort of siding outside - anyway, I live in an old one (partly) and have experience with several others, both old and new - if I were building from scratch, I wouldn't choose log construction except as I have it currently, as a piece of the whole - an accent - frankly, of all the construction I have been exposed to, VaTom's PAHS system/technique fills me with the most envy - "there's enough for everyone"
Dave, I agree with you.
Same here on the PAHS envy--
My family's got a vacation rental place, a d-style log home built in the 1990's. It's the only one I have much experience with. Based on the maintenance issues we're having with it, and what it takes to heat it, I would not choose that building style for a new home.
Your digressing all over the place.
I know SIP's make effective stand alone homes (that's why
the Timber-Frame inside it is redundant.
I'm not going to argue Forestry management with you. the
situation is obvious, and your welcome find out for yourself.
The situation with the Emerald Ash Borer will indeed provide
a temporary abundance of wood, but that is hardly a sustainable
supply. When it comes arguing the efficiency of any building style ,
or technology I think time is the true measure. Log homes
have provided shelter and warmth for centuries and still do
to this day.
The one locale I know of where they are insufficient is Alaska.
Where double wall construction was needed. That is an extreme
situation in which many "normal" homes wouldn't be adequate either.
You can proceed endlessly but first you have to explain away the
long heritage of successful homes.
Henley
First you need to learn when we are in agreement and move on. Please go back and reread what I said in that regard. Note especially the words you are correct
With regard to Forest management.
Minnesota currantly has far more mature hardwood trees than we did back in the 1950's The numbers escape me right now but next time I'm at my sawmill I'll note them and repeat them..I believe it's like 4 times the number of large mature trees..
If you look at many sources you'll note that we are currantly growing more trees in North America than any time..
Next with regard to the green ash borer. I remember when dutch elm disease was at it's peak massive mature trees were harvested in abundance and all sorts of techniques were used in an attempt to find uses for them.. the most common use was to push them in a pile and burn them..
Hopefully that can be avoided. Ash is a strong easily worked wood with a tendency to remain straight. I would say it's an excellant wood for furniture except so much furniture production has gone overseas lately and many of the factories in a position to take advantage of the currant overabundance no longer are in business.
Railroads too were large buyers of ash for railroad ties, however the recent trend has been towards track abandonment and not track building. thus the only need for ties is maintinace.
Pallets will certainly continue to use ash since it's strong and able to survive the abuses common in shipping. BUt hardly a position to massively increase their consumption of that species..
That leaves only home building as a source for consumption of those millions of trees.. Those in a position to do so should easily see the advantage of building with cheap ash instead of much more expensive other woods such as Douglas fir.
Finally I certainly do agree that time is a true measure of the longevity of any building technique..
Log homes built as pioneers settled this country have long since rotted away and been replaced.. However timberframes hundreds of years old are not uncommon and still in use today. In fact Some of those timberframes in England and the continent are 500-800 even 1000 years old. they've endured wars, fire, and other disasters..
Whereas almost none of the original log homes built by the earliest settlers still exist.
Even log homes over 100 years old are rare places.
First you need to learn when we are in agreement and move on Consider it done.