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Discussion Forum

Long live the stick roof!

dieselpig | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 9, 2004 05:30am

I was just looking at Blue’s truss photos on that “framing game” post and got to thinking about how much I enjoy cutting a roof.  Nothing against trusses, not trying to bash them or anything,  I’m just saying that I’m glad I don’t have to work with them very often.  To me, cutting a roof is the essence of framing.  I look forward to it and think about it  the whole way “up” on a house.  Walls and floor systems just get so monotonous and never seem all that much different from one another.  But roofs are kinda like snowflakes…. and I love that about them.  It’s what keeps framing fresh for me.  Now, I’m am very far from being a master roof cutter by any stretch of the imagination, but that’s what I love about it.  There’s just always more and more to learn.

It seems like with floor and wall framing, I’m just looking for ways to be more efficient and accurate, but with a good cut up roof, I’m actually learning more and more all the time about how roofs go together and all their angles and relations to one another.  It’s just good stuff is all.  To me, trusses seem kinda like a kit where someone has taken all the challenge and “glory” out of it on you.  Do you guys who mostly handle trusses feel like you get stale on the job sometimes?  Or am I missing something?  Anyway, long live the stick built roof! 

Here’s a few shots of the one we finished sheathing today.  Nothing fancy, but just enough variation to keep things interesting.  And look at the comraderie it builds! 

EDIT:  Sorry!  A picture from a different frame snuck in and the file size is HUGE.  Skip it if you’re on dial up.


Edited 12/8/2004 9:32 pm ET by dieselpig

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  1. Piffin | Dec 09, 2004 06:14am | #1

    Don't worry, I won't open that one by mistake!

    Some fine looking work. Is that a mix of spruce and doug fir raftering?

    Neat work!

    Good reason to be proud. that house looks like it is overdesigned for the neighborhood. biggest one around? I bet from the street below it, the thing will look like a castle sitting up on the hill.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. MojoMan | Dec 09, 2004 06:29am | #5

      That is a fine looking frame! Reminds me how much work there actually is in a big house. I had some of the same thoughts as Cloud about the advantage of a nice attic (or living space) under a stick-built frame.

      Piffin is very observant. That house does look big compared to what we can see of the neighborhood, but that's the way it is around here these days. Builders have to erect the largest possible home on a lot to compensate for the high cost of land. That house looks pretty typical of new construction in the Boston suburbs. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say it will sell for about $800-900 K. I feel bad for any Common Man that is house-hunting these days.

      Al Mollitor, Sharon MA

      1. User avater
        dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 06:50am | #11

        Wellesley,  Al..... 1.6 million is the asking price.  A hair under 5000 sqft.  And I'm that "common man" you just spoke of..... just finished shopping for that house in Stow!  OUCH! and still lots of work to do!

    2. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 06:43am | #8

      Good eye Piff!  The framing is a mix of SPF and hem fir.  Most any stock we get around here over 20' is hem fir the rest is SPF.... mainly spruce.  Thanks for the compliments.

      As far as the size goes.... yeah, we are not very popular in that neighborhood right about now.  It's a 50 yr old neighborhood of raised ranches with about four or five of these beasts sticking out.  Like alot of places, land is at such a premium around here that builder's are picking up lots like these and leveling the houses to erect something that can turn a profit with the rediculous land prices.  They do sell like hot cakes though.  We actually are building this one on the existing foundation which is in remarkably good condition.  I shot the whole foundation with a builder's level and shimmed (there's a 12" kneewall all around for basement cieling height) at 16 OC.  Anyway, builder thought it would keep the peace by not changing the existing footprint.... no go.  The times they are a changin!  We're doing our best though by keeping the scrap pile out of sight, the compressor in the basement and as quiet as possible, and just generally being as courteous as possible.  It doesn't help that this particular lot is the highest one in the neighborhood.  The first deck was eye level with the neighbor's roof! This zipcode is awful stuffy though and they apparently aren't looking to make any new friends!  Oh well.

      1. Piffin | Dec 09, 2004 07:33am | #18

        I didn't say so, but I had the feeling that this wasn't a virgin lot. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  2. User avater
    CloudHidden | Dec 09, 2004 06:17am | #2

    >Anyway, long live the stick built roof!

    I don't work much with framed roofs of any sort, given that we clearspan everything with concrete. But a house is going up along the road to my daughter's school. It uses roof trusses, and I'm absolutely amazed at how much of the structure under the roof is "wasted" space due to the trusses. I grew up in houses with attics and have fond memories of crawling around them. The multiple rooflines of this house, along with the trusses I saw, left no room for an attic. For this two story house, with a steep roofline, about 30-40% of the total height of the house was inaccessible. Stick roofs bring back the past for me.

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 06:47am | #9

      Very good points Cloud.  By adding the shed dormer in this attic (along with the three "doggie" dormers in the front which are mainly for aesthetics), we picked up an additional 1300+ sq ft of very useable space.  Not bad for upsizing joists, a couple extra sticks, and some 3/4" decking.

      1. User avater
        Timuhler | Dec 09, 2004 05:14pm | #21

        The extra space is one of the selling points we typically use on our homes.  I attended a Home Builders Association meeting with the county plan checker who was trying to get the builders up to speed on the IRC and he was saying that if we do that now, we have to have the shearwalls engineered.  Still a small price to pay for all that space.

        I always tell the customer that the attic is a good place to hide on Saturday's when the wife has her list of things to do. 

    2. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 09, 2004 06:52am | #12

      Cloud, not everyone wants to have a usuable space upstairs. I'm getting to the age that I don't want one. When I build my retirement home, I'll probably keep it small, square footage wise, but will still want the looks of the big roof. I won't want to build up in the attic and I won't want to create the staircase and halls to get to it.

      Those big roofs are design choices....kinda like luxury cars.....you don't really need them, but they look nice.

      blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

  3. User avater
    Timuhler | Dec 09, 2004 06:22am | #3

    Nice work man!  I mean really nice work.  You guys make framing houses look respectable :-)

    I know what you mean about stick framing.  I don't like trusses for many reasons.  One of the biggest is that feeling of satisfaction of cutting and stacking a roof.  The house we just started is all 12-12.  We will start building walls tomorrow and all I can think about is the roof :-)  I can't wait to start

    Your pics look great!  That Lull looks nice too and those 2 guys in the picture aren't that bad looking (although that guy on the left . . . .) :-)  I'm serious though, you are doing a great job.  It's pics like those that make me want to get up and work.  Thanks for posting them.

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 06:59am | #14

      Thanks Tim, good to hear you like it cuz I've seen your work and that's some stiff competition!  Yeah that Lull is working out just fine.....gonna be awful hard to let it go when the time comes.  If I can just book maybe 2 more frames for the spring I'll take the plunge.  Just bought a house though so I gotta be careful.

      I hear you..... that guy on the left..... first one I bump into every dang morning.....what a way to start the day.  Oh well..... scares off the riff raff.

    2. masterofnon1 | Dec 09, 2004 07:13pm | #26

      You say you are starting a 12 in 12.  When you do that in today's large homes don't you find that you need 22 or 24 foot 2 x 12s?  Are they easy to source and are they even close to straight?

      1. User avater
        Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 04:10am | #30

        Ya, I have a section that I will need 24' 2x12s not including tails.  We can actually get 26' 2x10s that are kiln dried and the longest 2x12's I've gotten are 26', but they aren't cheap.

        I frame here in the Pac NW, so lumber like that isn't very difficult to get.  The quality of long stuff has been pretty good the last few years.

        1. User avater
          dieselpig | Dec 10, 2004 04:28am | #33

          Regarding quality, I totally agree.  In fact the larger lumber, around here anyway, seems to be nicer than the 2x4's and 6's.

          1. User avater
            Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 04:44am | #34

            Go figure eh?  When we rack the 2x10s for the rafters, I'd say maybe 2 or 3 have to culled per house and often times, I can use those for valley fill. 

            It's been raining pretty hard around here the last few days, but this time next week, I hope to start the roof :-)  I'm going to take lots and lots of pics.

            By the way, how old are you?  In your pic it looks like you are fairly young. 

          2. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 10, 2004 04:57am | #35

            I'm 31.... you still got me beat but I think you got a head start!  ;)  yer like 27, right?

            Definately take lots of pictures Tim.  I'd love to see more pictures of roof framing around here.  Be nice to keep a thread going with nothing but roof talk and pictures.  God knows there's enough variables to keep it interesting.  Plus, I've got an awful lot to learn.  I still don't have the cajones or knowledge to cut a large hip or valley set by calculator alone.... working through it though by reading parts of Roof Cutter's Secrets for about the fourth time.  You went through a big learning spurt a couple years ago didn't you?  I mean, instead of taping off your runs or boogering here and there, you really picked up a lot of the mathematical ins and outs didn't you?

          3. User avater
            Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 05:10am | #36

            Ya, it's been a fun couple of years pestering Joe C. and Joe Fusco.  I've spent time on the phone with both of them (a lot) and they have really helped me.  Will's book is great too.  I bought one for everyone on my crew and I keep one in the cab.  I've read that thing so many times.  When my wife drags me to the in-laws house, I bring that book :-)  seriously ahahahahaha

            The math isn't difficult.  The basic trig functions take a little memorize, but really you can do it all on a CM pretty easily.  What helped me a lot is when Joe F. told me to divide the roof rises by each other (ie if you have a 6-12 and 10-12, divide 6/10 inv tan and you have the angle the hip makes at the plate, or you can do a 6" rise 10" run and hit pitch on the CM).  That really opened my eyes.

            I try and figure as much of the roof on the ground the night (s) before that I can and then cut sections as a time.  I haven't taken the plunge yet and done a whole roof at once.  I like to do sections in case I goofed something. 

            I'm an old 27.  Being married will do that :-)  my wife is right here ahahahahahaaha

          4. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 10, 2004 05:44am | #37

            Diesel, when I first started using the calculator, I'd test them before I cut a bunch. Or I'd measure them, then check it against what I thought it should be according to my calcs.

            It takes a little longer (twice as long) but in the long run it pays off.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          5. truehaven | Dec 20, 2004 01:21am | #80

            dp and tm

            I just turned 35 and been my own boss for 4 years. In that time i had my best learning.  3 years ago i framed a small hand-cut garage with help in 3.5 days.  Last week I did a similar garage in 2 days(same sized but dif.crew) and it went together better.  It felt like i was getting somewhere, though you spend enough time on this forum you realize where the bar level actually is.

            Ian

        2. masterofnon1 | Dec 10, 2004 07:24pm | #47

          Test

        3. masterofnon1 | Dec 10, 2004 07:27pm | #48

          Thanks for the reply and sorry if you another post similar to this one, the web site has been wierd today.

          Have you ever used I-joist rafters (if that is what you call them)?  Sure they are straight, light weight, and long.  However, it seems to me that you would need filler blocks to hang your collar ties too.  You would need hanger connectors at the ridge.  And if you wanted open rafter tails . .  what a mess.

          Am I missing something?

          1. jimblodgett | Dec 11, 2004 12:46am | #57

            I used I-joists for rafters on a job a couple years ago and I thought they were the bee's knees for that particular job.  These butted into a glulam ridge beam at the ridge and sat atop the top plate at the other end - did require Simpson hangers at the ridge, but they were readilly available.

            That house had exposed tails so we nailed a 6' 2x4 alongside the top of each I-joist, cantilevering out 2' with a 2x4 squash block directly under that added tail (just followed directions from the I-joist installation guide).  Sounds like a lot of trouble but it wasn't - 2 guys a couple hours maybe.  In fact, it would be a great way to make up a bunch of nicely detailed tails, like Craftsman style for example) in the shop.  Looking at the house today, you'd never guess it's framed with I-joists.

            I think the greater strength, lighter weight, more uniform sizes and straightness make I-joists a real good choice for roof framing.  You can get them in taller heights for increased insulation in cathedral applications, too.  I like framing with them.  

          2. masterofnon1 | Dec 11, 2004 12:49am | #59

             

            sounds good.   Filler blocks for tieing collar ties in?

          3. jimblodgett | Dec 11, 2004 05:10am | #64

            Didn't have collar ties on this job. 

            To be honest, I don't know that I've ever seen a collar tie I thought was functional for anything more than ceiling backing; but I guess that's a subject for another thread. 

          4. Piffin | Dec 11, 2004 05:25pm | #65

            Shhhhh...We've had that arguement already;) 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          5. masterofnon1 | Dec 13, 2004 08:31pm | #66

            There is an arguement about collar ties?

            Ridge beam, no need for collars

            Ridge board, collar ties.

            End of story?

          6. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 14, 2004 05:13am | #67

            The presence of a ridge beam doesn't have anything to do with whether or not collar ties are needed.  Collar ties are located in the upper third of the rafter span to prevent a roof from opening up like a clamshell in high winds.  Wall or rafter ties are located in the lower third of the rafter span and are necessary when no other traditional ceiling joist is present (or a ridge beam) to prevent the walls from spreading.  I've framed many many roofs with a ridge beam where collar ties are still necessary.  Collar ties can be eliminated by strapping the rafter over the ridge to it's opposing rafter or by using a piece of hardware to connect the rafter to the ridge.  "Collar ties" and "Rafter ties" are two terms which often get used interchangeably, but they are two totally different framing members serving two totally different purposes.  Anything located in the upper third of a rafter span will have virtually zero effect on keeping walls from spreading.

          7. jrnbj | Dec 17, 2004 07:51am | #71

            Fair enough, but what's the design criteria...what kind of wind load requires more fastening (i.e. collar ties or strapping) than the usual toenaing at the ridge...just a bored traveling field super....

          8. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 17, 2004 02:55pm | #72

            Honestly, don't know and don't need to know.  That's what architectural plans and nailing schedules are for.  I build to the plans cuz that's my job.  The only point I was trying to make was that the presence of a ridge beam is irrelevant when determining if collar ties are necessary.  What exactly are you fishing for?  Or are you just playing Devil's advocate?

          9. jrnbj | Dec 18, 2004 06:24am | #73

            nailing schedules are usually right, architectural plans are often wrong, there must be millions of houses with rafters toenailed to ridges (bearing or otherwise) without collar ties,
            so, when do you really need them...
            that's all

          10. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 18, 2004 03:20pm | #74

            3608.2.3.2 Collar Ties:

            Pairs of rafters on opposing sides of a ridge board in roof pitches over three units vertical in 12 units horizontal shall be connected by collar ties.  Collar ties shall be located at a maximum spacing of 48 inches on center, measured parallel to the ridge, or at every third pair of rafters, whichever is smaller.  Collar ties shall be located in the upper third of the height of the roof, measured from the sill plate to the ridge, and shall be a minumum of one inch by six inch dimensional lumber.  Collar ties shall be connected to rafters in accordance with the requirements for rafter ties in Table 3606.2.3a.

            Now, that's when I need them here in MA.  To find out when YOU need them, read your own code book. 

            You said, "there must be millions of houses with rafters toe-nailed to the ridge......".

            I still fail to see the point you are trying to make.  Of course there's millions of houses with code violations..... are you suggesting that because they haven't fallen over, they must be built correctly or something? 

             

            Edited 12/18/2004 7:26 am ET by dieselpig

          11. jrnbj | Dec 19, 2004 05:26pm | #76

            so is that true for a structural ridge.....

          12. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 19, 2004 05:55pm | #77

            Time for you to go back to building school....

          13. jrnbj | Dec 20, 2004 06:32am | #83

            anybody making a living in this buisness is always in school....

          14. butch | Dec 20, 2004 01:57pm | #84

            anybody making a living in this buisness is always in school....

             

            well said

            Edited 12/20/2004 5:59 am ET by butch

          15. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 21, 2004 01:19am | #85

            I agree.  But I was starting to get the feeling that you were yanking my chain with your questions.

          16. jrnbj | Dec 22, 2004 06:49am | #96

            Thanks, no, it was a serious question....I split my time between (mostly) running trim work and field supervision on hotel renovation (in fact I'm thinking of posting the current nightmare I have due to a poor survey (by others) of a property with some ~hidden~ conditions....haven't had to buy a code book (though I did pick up at half price a nice thick illustrated companion to the IBC at a Waldens going out of buisiness today).....anyway I reread your post quoting the code on collar ties & still would like to know if that section addresses the difference between a structural v. a plain ridge.....

          17. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 22, 2004 02:47pm | #97

            The type of ridge has no bearing on whether or not collar ties are needed.  It's the connection of rafter to ridge that determines the necessity of collar ties.  If you have hardware or "over straps" tieing the whole assembly together, then you don't need them (some inspectors may still make you put them in though, because they don't really know what they are looking at).  That goes for ridge board, ridge beam, and no ridge assemblies.

          18. jrnbj | Dec 22, 2004 11:39pm | #99

            thanks....

          19. Piffin | Dec 14, 2004 05:26am | #68

            read the story again. Diesel wrote it out right. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          20. masterofnon1 | Dec 14, 2004 09:04pm | #69

            Thanks!

          21. Piffin | Dec 15, 2004 03:38am | #70

            ReadySetFOAM<! 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        4. masterofnon1 | Dec 10, 2004 07:28pm | #49

          Oh sorry, one more.  You say pricey, what twice the board foot rate for 16 foot stock? 50% more?  ? ? ?

  4. User avater
    EricPaulson | Dec 09, 2004 06:23am | #4

    >>I look forward to it and think about it  the whole way "up" on a house.  Walls and floor systems just get so monotonous and never seem all that much different from one another.  But roofs are kinda like snowflakes.... and I love that about them.  It's what keeps framing fresh for me. 

    Good post, and as usual, your writing is poetic.

    I don't do alot of framing anymore, but I used to. The roof was always the high point.

    The first house I contracted on my own, was also the first hip for me. I asked my "mentor" to come and help me, for pay of course.

    He never showed, I learned real fast how it's done. He taught me a lesson without even being there. He knew I could do it, that's why he didn't show.

    Thanks Brian.

    Eric

    I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

    With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 07:01am | #15

      Now that sounds like an old timer all right!  LOL  Sometimes they could teach us more with a look or a one liner (or even a no-show) than a week in a classroom ever could, huh?

      Anyway, good to hear I'm not alone in how I feel about stickin' in a roof.

  5. User avater
    JDRHI | Dec 09, 2004 06:31am | #6

    Couldn`t agree more. My work with trusses is extremely limited, so I usually keep my trap shut when the topic comes up. Aint nothing like stick framing the roof though.

    Maybe its the whole "jungle gym" theme....like the kinds we had as kids. Climbing around on them trusses is like the sissy versions my kids gotta deal with! LOL!

    J. D. Reynolds

    Home Improvements

    "DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"

  6. Diamond | Dec 09, 2004 06:42am | #7

    Nice work!  Sometimes house design just dictates trusses, Most of the houses i've framed have been hand-cut but the ones I have used trusses the quality has sucked. I can only imagine the crews slamming those trusses together. My last hand-cut was a 15/12 with some glu-lam valleys. The 15/12 rolled out to a 4/12 porch on a curve and rounded the corner with a curved hip. Thought about that curved hip from the start.

    1. User avater
      Timuhler | Dec 09, 2004 05:11pm | #20

      Any pictures?  I would love to see that roof!  Steepest I've worked on was 12-12.

      1. Diamond | Dec 10, 2004 07:00am | #38

        I need to get over to his place and take some pics for my portfolio. I'll try and find a sunny day to do that ( yea right) Poulsbo WA. here are som pics of another house I did all hand cut. This was a turnkey house I GC and did foundation, framing siding and int trim. Enjoy.

        1. User avater
          dieselpig | Dec 10, 2004 07:10am | #39

          Beautiful looking house Diamond.  That sure is a pretty part of the country you guys live in.... gonna have to make my way out there someday.

          1. Diamond | Dec 10, 2004 07:22am | #40

            It is nice, can get a little wet from about nov.-jun. though but not as bad as most poeple think. best time to come to the seattle area is between july and sep. I'm making a big move this spring to Bend OR. My family is really excited about that, already have a lot and house plans almost done.

          2. User avater
            Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 05:24pm | #44

            Your moving to Bend?  Our family vacation for the last 20 years has been to Sunriver.  I absolutely love the Bend area!  When we are on vacation there, we hit some of the developments and see who is building and what they are building.  I'm debating on going to Sunriver this year.  We didn't make it last summer, and I miss it. 

            http://www.sunriver-resort.com/

             

            Edited 12/10/2004 9:25 am ET by TIMUHLER

          3. jimblodgett | Dec 10, 2004 05:56pm | #45

            It's humbling to read through these messages.  I'd say the future of our profession is in good hands.  

          4. Diamond | Dec 11, 2004 03:59am | #61

            Same with us we would vacation there about every other year and always talked about living there, we love that area so last summer while there we decided we were going for it. Our kids are still young so no big deal for them, It will be an adventure!

        2. User avater
          Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 05:21pm | #43

          Man that is a nice looking house!  Every once in awhile we'll drive up to Bainbridge and see what's going on. 

          I hope we get some sun soon :-) 

          1. Diamond | Dec 11, 2004 03:55am | #60

            Thanks, It took almost 18 months to finish that beast. Well we didn't get any sun today what a drencher. Lucky for me i was inside doing some finish work. I'll be in the San juans for the next few weeks framing hopefully we'll get a change in our weather pattern.

          2. User avater
            Timuhler | Dec 11, 2004 04:16am | #63

            Have fun.  We got soaked yesterday and I had an easy day today.  Next week we'll spend long days as its "supposed" to be nice.  I hope you have good weather.

        3. User avater
          CapnMac | Dec 10, 2004 07:12pm | #46

          That's nice.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          1. Diamond | Dec 11, 2004 04:00am | #62

            Thanks for your compliment!

  7. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 09, 2004 06:49am | #10

    Nice roof diesel.

    I'm glad you enjoy cutting those roofs....someone should like it. I get as bored cutting all those rafters as you do framing walls...

    I happened to open that big picture. It showed the inside framing of the rafters. I especially noted the ridge, and the rafters hanging lower than the ridge. That wouldn't pass in these parts. The rafters are required to fully bear on their short points. The thinking is that if they don't bear, they could be subject to splitting when they are fully loaded with snow.

    I usualy deal with this issue in one of three ways. 1) provide a larger ridge 2)drop the existing ridge flush with the bottom short point of the rafter 3)add an additional 2x4 to the bottom of the ridge.

    If I'm running continuous ridge vent, I normally choose #2 because that creates a perfect pocket at the top to vent the roof. If I'm doing a simply layon onto a roof, I usually choose #3.  Of course, #1 is the odds on favorite and is chosen by most carpenters around here.

    blue

    Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 09, 2004 06:53am | #13

      Good points Blue.... leave it to you to find something negative to say about someone else's frame!  LOL.  Anyway, there's a double LVL ridge beam going underneath that 2X12 shed dormer ridge, so that oughta keep things from splitting.  Whatever.

      1. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 09, 2004 07:26am | #17

         I wondered if there was more going in because I didn't see any collar ties.....

        Actually I wasn't being negative at all. Not all localitys are as picky about that "underhang" as others. Personally, I don't think too many rafters are going to split away unless they really take on a load. Steep roofs like that one don't load up so much. In that case, it's a technicality.Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

  8. slykarma | Dec 09, 2004 07:22am | #16

    Good post, good pictures.

    I always enjoy the challenge of something a little out of the ordinary. That something could be a hand cut roof, or curved concrete work, or exposed timber frame, whatever. It's nice to be really creating something rather than just being part of an assembly line.

    Wally

    Lignum est bonum.
  9. robzan | Dec 09, 2004 09:22am | #19

    Dieselpig,
    Nice roof and nice post. Sure looks cold where you are! I love to cut roof too, all the angles all meeting together is like magic. I have another reason not to like trusses, i do a lot of remodeling and when dealing with trusses you cannot modify them. No vaulted or coffered ceilings. Cannot cut them at all without an engineers stamp. Limits my creativity and wastes space.
    My next project is a detatched garage with a 12 in 12 roof. There is going to be an apartment under the roof. Not too hard but fun. Big dormers with valleys.

  10. Nails | Dec 09, 2004 05:24pm | #22

    D P....One of my fondest memories is a Saturday on the job by myself cutting hip sets.I was a young builder and the boss didn't know i was there, I thought it would be a suprise and boy it sure was .On Monday the boss said WHAT did you do when he saw the stack of material. Fortunatly everything went together perfectly and the boss said your my saw man from now on . One of the proudest moments of a long career,sometimes I drive by that house and think , man hand cut roofs are beautiful and wish that I could live that Saturday one more time.

    1. User avater
      PaulBinCT | Dec 09, 2004 05:33pm | #23

      Man... Sometimes you guys sure make me feel like a babe in the woods.  Just finished framing my first from scratch stick built roof for a humungous outbuilding and sweated bullets every step of the way.  But it woiked ;) and the client loves the building.  Some of the framing you guys do still strikes me like voodoo but it sure is impressive...

      1. User avater
        Timuhler | Dec 10, 2004 04:17am | #31

        Some of the framing you guys do still strikes me like voodoo but it sure is impressive...

        I know what you mean.  If it wasn't for forums like this, I'd still be stringlining everything in and measuring all my rafters. 

        Congrats on your success.  I sweat everytime I cut a roof and wonder if I made a mistake somewhere.  When it fits, everyone cheers and I just sigh :-)  It's a good feeling.

    2. User avater
      BossHog | Dec 09, 2004 05:39pm | #24

      You know, I did something like that shortly after I started at that place in Virden nack in the early 1990s. The owner was doing trusses for a customer he really wanted to impress. But the house had dual sloped hip sets. The owner didn't know how to figure them. He told the customer the corners would have to be stick framed. I told him I could do it, but he didn't believe me at first. He eventually gave in and let me try it. The corners went together perfectly, and the owner was impressed. There's definitely some satisfaction in proving to someone that you can do something when they don't think you can...
      A hospital bed is like a parked taxi with the meter running.

    3. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 10, 2004 03:58am | #28

      Nails, what a great story! I love motivated people like you who take a chance...and most of the time it pays off!

      I'll be retelling that story till I'm old and gray.

      blue

      Oops..I'm already old and gray!Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

  11. masterofnon1 | Dec 09, 2004 07:07pm | #25

    GREAT TO HEAR A MAN SPEAK FONDLY OF THIS WORK.  You are a lucky man!

    Very poetic!

  12. Framer | Dec 10, 2004 03:52am | #27

    Very nice work Diesel. I'm also exited when it comes to cutting rafters because it is my favorite part of framing and will always be. When you frame your dormers I'm curious on how you or others get the location of the double that you nail your ridge into. What do you do?

    I scribe the level line across the top plates that sit on top of the double rafter all the way to the end which would be the center of your valley and then I take the common rafter pattern and hold it on the inside part of the seatcut of the birdsmouth which would represent the inside of the wall on that level mark which is the center of the valley and lay it right along side of the double and then scribe the plumbcut and that's exactly where your double goes.

    Joe Carola
    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 10, 2004 04:03am | #29

      See, I never thought of that.  I love those "smack the forehead cuz the answer was right in front of you" type solutions.

      How do I do it?

      Er.....

      Ahhh.....

      I drop a tape? 

      (Wish I had something a little craftier to offer!)

      Thanks for the kind words Joe.  Means a lot coming from the guys around here.

      1. Framer | Dec 10, 2004 09:45am | #41

        There's a lot of ways to do it I just find that using the common rafter pattern as a pattern is the fastest and most accurate way for me. What I also do is keep the bottom of the valleys flush to the bottom of the the double commons because it helps when nailing in the valley jacks you nail them flush to the bottom of the valley. This way you have a nice clean line for the sheetrock or you could bevel the bottom of the valley.Even on the bottom of the headers I rip them to whatever the pitch of the roof is and keep it flush on the bottom of the double rafters and when I nail in the valley jacks and the rafters that go from the header to the ridge I nail the bottoms even with the bottoms of the header it makes it easier and gives you clean lines for sheetrock.Joe Carola

  13. Shavey | Dec 10, 2004 04:22am | #32

    I`m with you , i love framing in roofs with rafters also, and the more complicated they are the better i like them, if it were easy anybody could do it.

  14. shtick | Dec 10, 2004 03:28pm | #42

    im with you. i hate everything about trusses. everything from the 2' layout, to prepping them on the ground, getting them in order, waiting for the crane, to the inconsisntency from truss to truss. and, like you said... theres no challenge in walls and/or floors. besides stairs, the roof is all there is to look forward to .... trusses are to framing what the boxers waffle face hammer is to fascia

    1. User avater
      CapnMac | Dec 10, 2004 07:29pm | #50

      trusses are to framing what the boxers waffle face hammer is to fascia

      Harsh, but so very true.

      The truss-roofed McHouses out there will become a great burden on the remodeling business market here in the next few (I'm thinking 5 to 10, as the buyers "move on" to their next new "better" house) years.

      I've already seen some of this in a "posh" subdivision here.  They built a country club to sell exclusive lots on the GC.  Now that the subdivision is annexed into the city, there's already folks buying up the next exclusive neighborhood location to "get away" from the city congestion.

      A couple of the 3/4 and 1 million house up for sale are almost un-remodel-able.  There will be some very disappointed people moving into "established" neighborhoods of "known value."  They'll be even more disappointed when there simple remodel "creeps" up to a gut job, only to find that the "bones" of their house are only just barely adequate.

      I know of one of these 'gems' that was built by an out-of-town builder.  It's roof is truss-built-'cause that's how they do all their houses.  I'm not sure there's more than two matching trusses in the entire, wandering roof.  About half the roof is stick framed between all of those unique trusses, too (and not to a very high standard).  Three a/c units and two WH up in there, too--and no getting them out when they need replacing.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

      1. masterofnon1 | Dec 10, 2004 08:11pm | #51

        Not sure I follow your remodeling concern.   I tought people push the truss concept becasue there are no bearing walls, all open space potential.  (Of course this is not totally true since some trusses hang on there trusses with do have bearing points etc.)

        The AC units in the rafters, now that is an EXCELLENT point!  I never though about the one.   surely a mess awaiting down the line.

        1. User avater
          CapnMac | Dec 10, 2004 09:15pm | #52

          Not sure I follow your remodeling concern. 

          It's when someone "discovers" that 16 or 22 foot high "space" in the attic, "that just has to have those little sticks taken out . . . "

          Or, when an interior wall is to be reomoved (because the plan isn't open "enough" to suit the inferior decorator), and only after the fact do "we" discover that wall is a bearing wall, becuase it has to be, due to the "circus tent" roof overhead . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          1. User avater
            jonblakemore | Dec 10, 2004 09:49pm | #53

            >>"Or, when an interior wall is to be reomoved (because the plan isn't open "enough" to suit the inferior decorator), and only after the fact do "we" discover that wall is a bearing wall, becuase it has to be, due to the "circus tent" roof overhead . . ."I don't see how this would be any different than a stick frame. For the most part stick frames have more bearing walls than trusses. 

            Jon Blakemore

          2. masterofnon1 | Dec 10, 2004 10:50pm | #54

            Jon,

            That was my first thought.

          3. User avater
            CapnMac | Dec 10, 2004 11:10pm | #55

            For the most part stick frames have more bearing walls than trusses

            If they are designed right, I'll give you that.  A nice simple plan would also even that out.  But I'm thinking of the wandering, free-form, no-thought-of-the-roof-above plans that are "upscale" in this area. 

            Looked at one the other day.  Had a "breakfast" area as a partial bumpout--no big deal on the plan, it's a 6/8 octagon, 8' x 8' right off the kitchen.  It's a bit small for a table, which is what the second owners were trying to address.  To get the roof on it, the builder's drafter just projected a roof around it like it was freestanding.  That's fine until somebody has to gou build this thing, which also just happens to intersect the partial second floor and the main roof.  One hanging ridge, five hanging valleys (and a point that makes a flat valley against part of the second floor . . . ).  There's support lumber running to almost every plate in site to hold this thing up.  The Inf--oops, Interior Decorator has already scheduled two walls for demolition ("Oh, those are jsut partitions--don't worry about them.")

            Ok, I may be bitter and burned on a couple of these.  I'm just a bit too tired of seeing how some of these "wonders" are slapped together.  I'll admit to over-generalizing, too.  But, only 'cause it's Friday <g>.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)

          4. User avater
            jonblakemore | Dec 10, 2004 11:21pm | #56

            Capn,I will agree that in your description things do seem overly complicated just to use trusses. I have not come across this situation much (fortunately) but I will keep it in mind for future use. A bad thing to find if you bid based on assumptions. 

            Jon Blakemore

          5. masterofnon1 | Dec 11, 2004 12:47am | #58

            Cap,

            The fact is that houses are not designed to be remodeled if that means knocking out walls.  Most people just don't have a clue what makes a building work, and just think they can do anything they desire.  You and I know the difference.

          6. JohnSprung | Dec 21, 2004 03:42am | #86

            > But I'm thinking of the wandering, free-form, no-thought-of-the-roof-above plans ....

            Or is it that the roof is designed with no thought of the floor plan and bearing walls below?  What I see on older houses around here -- 80 years and more -- is that the roof is designed based on the top floor plan.  It's almost as if the roof had a functional purpose, rather than being merely decorative.  ;-)

             

            -- J.S.

             

  15. bhackford | Dec 18, 2004 03:53pm | #75

    You really do nice work! I am doing a house in spring that is going to push my roof framing skills. In photo 506 it looks like you did a "roof over" where the gables intersect. Do you have anymore photos of this section?



    Edited 12/18/2004 7:55 am ET by BHACKFORD

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 19, 2004 06:30pm | #78

      Thanks BHACKFORD, I appreciate the compliment.  I'm not sure that I have any close-ups of any lay-on roofs, but I will have a look.  They are probably the simplest of all valleys to build.  You really only need a chalk box and a tape to figure them out.  Actually easier than figuring common rafters, if you can believe that!

      1. FramerT | Dec 19, 2004 11:41pm | #79

        For what its worth,few years ago the inspecter wanted to see toe=nails so he could do a count.
        I didn't do it....the buck does NOT stop here.

      2. bhackford | Dec 20, 2004 04:31am | #81

        This coming spring I am framing a 22 by 22 intersecting a 24 by 42. I want to do a roof over but under the intersection there is no bearing wall. The architect drew it with supporting and supported valley rafters. I would just prefer to do a roof over. I need to size a beam to span 22' to carry the roof above.Did you run into the same situation with the project you posted? Or was there a bearing wall under the intersection?Thanks

        1. User avater
          dieselpig | Dec 20, 2004 06:07am | #82

          If I were you, I wouldn't get into sizing that beam.  It's gonna come up as a monster to span 22' and carry a roof load like that.  Just cut a true valley.  On the project in this thread, that's how the roof was drawn.  That smaller bump out is the master bedroom, and they wanted cathedral cielings in there, that's why the main lays on the smaller.  Very rarely will I suggest deviating from the plans that are given to me.  I like to keep my butt covered.  The few times that I do, it's usually because something is drawn that just doesn't work or is a collosal waste of time, money, or effort.  True valleys don't take much longer than a layover to frame and really aren't very difficult, especially if pitch of the intersecting roofs are the same.

          If you are nervous about it, pick up Roof Cutter's Secrets over at JLC's bookstore.  Fantastic book on roof cutting.  It's a pretty easy read and you'll pick up a ton of useful information.  If you're going to be doing much framing, and it sounds like you are, it's best you learn to cut some simple valleys and hips.  The only thing we have to fear is fear itself, right?  I remember building my first hip roof years ago in my rented garage out of 2x4's on a sheet of plywood.  Seriously.  Read the book, go buy some 2x4's, and give it a try.  It's a great feeling of accomplishment and you'll surprise yourself.

          Either that, or sub it to me!

          Here's couple of supported valley shots for you...

      3. masterofnon1 | Dec 21, 2004 04:20am | #87

        Excuse me, lay-on roof?  Is that were you have one gable roof framed and shealthed and then have an intersecting gable roof where instead of valley rafters you just build that roof by "laying the rafters" on top of the already completed roof?

        1. User avater
          dieselpig | Dec 21, 2004 02:30pm | #88

          Lay on, lay over, California valley, cleated valley, there's a million names for them.

          1. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 21, 2004 04:05pm | #89

            Great house and nice pic Diesel!

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          2. User avater
            EricPaulson | Dec 22, 2004 03:56am | #91

            Brian,

            I'm curious as to why the small roof doesn't lay on to the bigger roof thus opening up the entie top floor where the dormer is?

            Nice work.

            EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

            With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

          3. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 22, 2004 04:24am | #92

            Lemme guess...ooh....ooh...I think I know this one....

            The reversed gable area is a room with a vaulted ceiling?

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          4. User avater
            EricPaulson | Dec 22, 2004 04:55am | #93

            smart azz framer guy............

            ok, why is it called a reverse gable. Whatsit goin backwards or sumpin??

            Jus wait till diesel gets here............aaarrgghhhhI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,

            With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.

          5. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 22, 2004 06:39am | #95

            Backwards? Yes...thats us!

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          6. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 22, 2004 02:50pm | #98

            Blue gets the milkbones!!  The room underneath the smaller roof is the master bedroom with vaulted ceilings, therefore, the main lays over the minor.  Gotta fly.... I'm running late!

          7. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 23, 2004 09:28pm | #100

            Thank goodness Diesel!  I was running low on my milkbone supply because I've been paying out too many on the contests I've been running.

            Actually, that was an easy guess because doing that layon that way is much harder and the only reason that anyone would do it that way is because they were forced to by the underlying structure...either because of a lack of bearing or the ceiling requirements!

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

        2. JohnSprung | Dec 22, 2004 03:40am | #90

          That description sounds like what's known as a "California dormer".

           

          -- J.S.

           

  16. Brudoggie | Dec 22, 2004 05:53am | #94

    Nice work. I like the cathedral dormers. Did that on my kids room. Makes a great space. I stick most of my roofs too. I'll post some recent pics, soon.
    Brudoggie

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