After having lived in New York City way, way too long, my husband and I bought a place in PA. There was a foundation, 1st floor joists and subfloor already. When we bought the place, we had wanted to hire a builder to put up a shell. {We would have loved to do a finished house, but we have more dreams than money. :=)} We had found someone who came highly recommended and were part of the way through the mortgage process when 9/11 happened. We were devastated emotionally, and hurt financially, and our plans fell apart.
I spent a couple weeks at Heartwood the following summer (little plug for a great experience), and we started in August. The house had been on the market a while and there was a lot of water and carpenter ant damage. We ripped up one section, getting rid of everything but the rim joist, and spent 17 weekends in a row putting in new footings, support posts, joists… we got in most of the rafters, then we were hit with 60 mph winds one weekend, pouring rain the next two, and before we knew it we were under two feet of snow. We started up again as soon as we could, but by this time I was pregnant and after I fell on some wet plywood (damaging only my ego), my husband decided we’d better quit.
We went back to the builder, but he had mostly retired and his son had taken over most of the business. We felt like we owed it to him because we had backed out on him before, when he’d really put in a lot of time helping us plan and figure out what we could afford to do. The son did the estimate over, based on the amount of work we were able to finish. He included an allowance for a new subfloor because we weren’t sure how much more damage we’d uncover. Things went pretty well; the son replaced a major portion of the subfloor and some of the joists. He framed the rest of the house and did the roofing. He grumbled a bit about how he’d lost money on our job because the roof “kicked his butt”, and he’d had a family crisis happen as well. We felt a bit bad, so we didn’t complain about a couple sections of flooring we felt should have been taken up; we just figured we’d replace those spots ourselves down the road. (Yeah, I’m a sucker.)
Now here’s the advice part. We were out last weekend putting up housewrap, and I went into the basement and noticed three big piles of sawdust. Even though we’d done a walk-through, I missed this. There is a section of built-up beam, and he’s just replaced the two outside 2X12s – leaving the rotting, ant-infested middle two in place. (I have also noticed five or six joists that are questionable.) To complicate matters, this beam is under an exterior wall so it’s not something we can fix ourselves. I certainly plan on letting him knowwhat’s going on, but beyond that I’m not sure how to proceed. I don’t know that I trust him to be able to shore up the house and replace the beam. I’m not sure he has the experience or the equipment for this. Can we ask him to get someone else to do this? Can we ask him to pay for the job if we find someone else to do it? If the only decent thing to do is to let him correct it, what kind of written agreement should we look for to protect ourselves in case he doesn’t do a good job of fixing this?
My husband says I’m being too nice – he’s had more than a few choice words to say about the matter, but this guy is a neighbor, we’re already the outsiders – the evil New Yorkers – and I’d like to remain on good terms with the people we’re surrounded by.
Shauna
Replies
What does the dispute resolution portion of your contract call for? I would read that and follow through accordingly. DanT
Ummm..... dumb of us, I know, but we didn't have any type of resolution clause in the contract. We just had the bare-bones laid out. His dad was pretty much the most respected guy around, and I guess I just transfered that image onto his son. Once we had specified the materials, scope of work and warantee I didn't think to go further.
Shauna
Wow ... three sets of subfloor and joists.
You pretty much have to give him the opportunity to correct his mistakes. If he refuses, then there's a whole new set of options.
Don't listen to his crap about losing money on the roof. If I read correctly, you let him give you a new bid for completing the work. If you had forced him (somehow) to finish the house for the original amount, that would be differentg. But he either missed something or is trying to make you feel sorry for him.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Was bug damage ever noted before you spotting the pile of sawdust? Was it neglect or could it have been a sound call? I suspect the former considering the damaged joist flanked by the new 2x12's. If he was to replace the infested beam during construction would it have required much more work. Some guys might try to take a short cut and let the load be carried by a weakened member for a little while rather than do a whole bunch of extra shoring. Especially if they feel like they for some reason need to make up time, money or some other mistake. I don't want to excuse him only give you insight into the possibilities of his thinking.
You need to find out if the beam and joists are structurally sound and if they are then call an exterminator and get rid of the ants, a lot of time its powder post beetles. If this is the case it might not be as bad as it seems. The bugs have to be exterminated and the rot, if there is this also, has to be stopped. If it is more then . . .
I can only try to see your side and the carpenter's side and give my idea of the best way that I can see for you to get what you need: a sound home.
If the guy had in his mind that he was trying to help you out by trying to save you some money by giving you a low price but in turn willing to take risks that that obviously had a serious impact of the outcome of the job, this might be a situation where good intentions wind up being a hack job. Psychologically the carpenter thinks he can get away with it because he was 'doing them a favor' or 'what do they want, I lost my behind'. If this sounds like your situation and you have no legal recourse, or maybe you do, (if you do use it when all else fails) either way, you have a serious problem.
The best way I can see to attempt to solve this would be using good character and carefully chosen words. Some carpenters can be pretty stubborn. Meet with him and let him talk and tell you what exactly his feelings are on this situation. What are the reasons in his mind that he should or should not come back and right his wrongs. You being angry and accusative is just going to make it easier for him to refuse. Being their while the victims of his ill conceived decisions listen and treat him with respect might make him see the reality of the situation. Which is he's got to make it right. Using diplomacy is a best route. I've known a lot carpenters, and usually approached in the right manner they will show integrity. You might show a willingness to bend a little, if in your opinion give and take is more favorable than a courtroom.
See you're not the only one who makes long posts.
We just noticed the dust this past weekend, but we all knew before the project was started that there was water and insect damage, since the dang thing sat on the market so long before we were foolish enough to buy it. The allowance was supposed to cover replacing any of the bad wood, whether it was joists or plywood. I'm assuming it's ants because that's what my husband and I found when we were tearing out and framing the section we built.
Since he hadn't gotten to the roof at this point (the part he said kicked his butt), the only thing I can think is that maybe - just maybe - he didn't notice, though I doubt it since there are new pieces sandwiching the bad. I'm just puzzled because a couple more 2Xs are a vastly smaller price to pay than having a structural problem to fix, and I would hope he didn't put the wall up first then figure out that he had to shore up the beam. One other thought - maybe a couple people on his crew did it without telling him?
Anyway, I posted this to get feedback before going to him because I do want to avoid making him get defensive, angry, confrontational, etc. He seems to be a decent guy, and I'd like to resolve this with as little hassle as possible.
Shauna
When you first noticed the original damage did you call an exterminator?
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Where in Pa?
Get a second opinion. If your guys is a true experienced professional he will not only understand but would welcome reassurance from another pro.
If he gets an attitude then you know he's trying to hide something
Changing out a rotted beam in an unfinished house is less of a big deal than you seem to think. It's not like all the finish work is going to crack when you jack the thing up a couple of inches--which is all it will really take.
You can approach this two ways, if you want to try it yourselves.
1. You can rent hydraulic lifing equipment from a rental agency;
2. You can buy six or eight steel screw-post jacks, which don't cost very much. How many you need depends on how long the beam is; you'll want a jack post every four to six feet.
You build a temporary lifting beam out of 2x12s, say a triple. Build this in place about two feet back from where the rotted beam you'll be tearing out is. Put up one 2x12 at a time and toenail it up to the joists so it's hanging off them. (If you build it on the floor, you'll need lifting gear to get it up there when it's finished.) Then set your jack posts under it and start lifting the house, a couple of turns on each jack and then move on to the next.
Do make sure you cut or otherwise release the hardware that's holding the mud sill to the top of the foundation first, of course....
Once the house is up high enough, rig some rope slings to catch and lower the old beam, then take a Sawzall and cut it free. Slack away on the slings and lower the thing to the ground and haul it outside and burn it.
Now build a new beam in place, just like you did for the temporary one...and poison it with Pentox.
Lower the house, re-attach the mudsill to the foundation, and cut free your temporary beam the same way you cut free the rotted one.
You'll wind up with a few 2x12s and some screw posts left over, but they'll probably come in useful somewhere along the line....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Thank you. I think we'll take Ed's advice and see if he's willing to correct his mistake. Your info makes me a lot more comfortable in two ways: 1) if he's trying to do something slap-dash I'll have a better understanding of what's up, 2) if he can't or won't fix it, we can tackle it ourselves.
Regarding the post asking where in PA, I really don't want to answer. I don't think this guy is a hack, or a bad builder - our project was a really tough one. He maybe needs a little more experience. Just for kicks, I'll post an attachment of this crazy foundation later so you can see what we were up against.
Shauna