Looking for Hucks 4×4 roof cuttin lesson
im looking for that article and cant for the life of me find it, i wanted to read it and try to work it out in my own hands/head.
anyone have a link or a name of the article?
Woods favorite carpenter
im looking for that article and cant for the life of me find it, i wanted to read it and try to work it out in my own hands/head.
anyone have a link or a name of the article?
Woods favorite carpenter
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Replies
It's in a readers Tips section of FHB.com..............
Maybe up there in the BLOGS section up on the Masthead ^
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/item/8876/get-hip-to-those-tricky-roof-angles
Have at it. Not too many people seem to grasp it, although it seems simple enough to me. The hard part was figuring out that it would work!
I just looked at it and I don't really know what you are trying to say or accomplish. And I don't understand the significance of using a 4x4. I don't doubt that you do though. The difference is that you are explaining how to arrive at your conclusions using your filters and verbiage and they don't fit mine. I wouldn't understand someone that explained it using trig either. I would understand it if it was explained using the framing square. Or, I would be able to understand what your pictures are saying if you used your pictures, then related the ratios to the framing square. With those ratios given, I'd eventually begin to understand your reason for using the 4x4. I think my inability to grasp your drawings is due to a few different things. I don't have a 4x4 in my possession to do your drawings. I don't have a framing square to lay against the drawings to assist me in my exploration and finally, it's hard to explain things on the internet lol! I do understand the principle that each angle is related to another angle in a roof. We were taught that principle with a 2d illustration called the "butterfly" in carpentry school. It showed how each leg of the triangles formed one leg of the other triangles involved in complex roofs. It is an interesting tip Huck and I admire your dedication at arriving at your solution. I only offered these comments to you to address your wonder why others can't grasp it. You and I both know that it takes effort to understand these complex angles and how they relate to one another and most of us aren't willing to put in the time. Matt will figure this out and he will be better off because of your tip.
I just looked at it and I don't really know what you are trying to say or accomplish
OK, maybe I could explain it this way. You're on the jobsite, and your carpenter buddy has just cut a hip for a large roof. Because it spans quite a distance, the plans show a glue-lam for the hip. Once its cut, he realizes that because of the thickness, the hip should be "backed" or beveled on top to follow the plane of the roof. He yells over to you - Hey Jim, what's the correct angle to bevel this hip?
Or you are sheathing a roof with 2x tongue and groove because it will be exposed from below. Where the planks miter to meet over the hip, your framer cuts a 45 degree cut with his blade set at 90 degrees - and finds out its a terrible fit. You like clean framing, and want the miters to fit each other where they meet.
You're putting the fascia board on a hip roof. Its a square cut fascia, and you want the miters to be tight, because they'll show. You tack a board up to the corner, then another from the other side, to scribe a line to cut. But you think, that's a hassle, tacking two pieces of fascia up, to take them down, cut them, and put them back up. Wish there were an easier way of figuring that angle. Then you cut your miter with your blade set at 45 degrees, but you find because its a square cut fascia, not a vertical fascia, its not a true 45. Close, but just off enough to make your miter less than tight. You wish you knew what the angle is you should set your saw at when you make that miter cut.
You grab a scrap of 4x4, make a few marks on it, grab your skilsaw, and cut a piece off the corner. You now have all the answers to the above questions, in less time than it takes to paint your toenails.
And I don't understand the significance of using a 4x4.
Its a readily available scrap found on most jobsites. It could be cut from any square corner of wood, or any other suitable material.
I think my inability to grasp your drawings is due to a few different things. I don't have a 4x4 in my possession to do your drawings. I don't have a framing square to lay against the drawings to assist me in my exploration and finally, it's hard to explain things on the internet lol!
Well, there you go.
View Image
To me, it's a very simply created scale model of a hip roof, where all the angles are consistent with the actual roof, and I wonder, What could be hard to understand about that? =)
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/17/2009 10:23 am by Huck
Okay....thanks for the followup explanation. I'm sorry to say that I'm no further along in my knowledge...probably because I don't have that 4x4 and saw in my hand. I do know from experience that everytime I make a cut there are angles and bevels appearing on the drops that give us clues. My skill with rafters and bevels is all about ratios and applying them with the framing square. So, if your 4x4 lesson culminated with "normal" ratios, then I'd probably become one of the few that grasp your concepts. A normal ratio on a 5/12 is: 5/12, 5/16.97, 12/13 etc. So, I'd be looking for ways to get my framing square laid along side of those bevels and angles to compare them to the ratios that I know exist on a 5/12. Thats' how I did it onsite when confusion struck.
Hey, Jim,I'm with you -- it doesn't translate online for me. But from what others have said here, I get the feeling that if we dragged out the old, familiar rafter square, and applied it to a block of wood, we'd get it in a heartbeat.********************On that note, just finished a sweet hip-roofed gazebo for a Buddhist center a couple of miles away (also a Nautilus-shaped walk-in outdoor shower for beside the pool -- you know these austere monks!)One of the guys took home all of the 8x8 post offcuts, but I know he'd be happy to share them. So I'm going to get all of the guys back together to walk through and critique Huck's idea.Full report to follow, Jim, but it might be a while -- we've all scattered to the four corners of our local job market. ************************* On that note, we're in SE Michigan, the worst place in all of the country. Some of us have still managed to stay busy, and pull down $40-$45/hr on our T&M jobs. And tickled pink and more than happy to pull down $25/hr on bid jobs, just to stay busy -- last Winter was scary for me, and I really had to go through the Rolodex to stay semi-busy.Others here, out there in the auto community, are going through scary, scary times. Let's all send them good thoughts.How are you guys out in the rest of the country doing? Hanging in there?**************************Hmmm, I got a little off track there. Maybe I'll get bumped to the Tavern. If I do, I'll see you there.AitchKay
I don't really even need the rafter square as much as I need to see the numbers on the angles that they are showing. The one thing that we never see much of in SE Michigan was those style overhangs. They are a lot more common here in TX. I think I did one in West Bloomfield back in the 70's. I might have done one on a remodel in the Bloomfields in the 80's. They are just so rare there. I do like learning about the angles and stuff (or, maybe I should say "used to" like learning LOL). I just wish he would blow up those angle on sketchup and lay a framing square on it. I'd know exactly what was going on in a minute or two.
YAHTZEE
i think i got it, that is too freaking easy man......you got any time this weekend to talk a lil about it? i got a rafter class im teaching and i think this would be a great way to show 3rd year apprentices in Framing II the other ways to skin a cat.
this is a great group of kids, very very mathematically having it together and after 7 hours they were still begging for more after day one.
maybe i can call and we can talk it over some? think that would take the gray areas out. if you dont mind email me a phone number and a time be glad to call. Woods favorite carpenter
Sure Matt, you can call me anytime. My phone # is on my website http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
The 835 number is home office, the other two are cell phone.
Glad to hear you can use this - at one point I would have given my left ear for this information. It was a hard won battle to get to this point. Not that useful unless you're a roof cutter, 'tho, and we are a dying breed!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
How do you figure the angles that you mark on the 4x4? Framing Square, trig..?
the only angle you need to mark the 4x4 is the roof pitch. You could use a speed square or a framing square. The mock up doesn't require you to know the other angles, it gives them to you.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/17/2009 11:30 pm by Huck
I think I get it, but just to be sure could you post your sketchup file?thx
DC
OK, here it is. But its an older version of SketchUp.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
<!----><!----> <!---->
I get it, pretty simple. Mark the pitch off the corner of the block, set your saw at 45, cut line (one). The square fascia miter is found on the adjacent face.
edit; ) and... The backing bevel is located across the end.<!----><!---->
Edited 9/18/2009 2:26 pm ET by MrJalapeno
I get it, pretty simple. Mark the pitch off the corner of the block, set your saw at 45, cut line (one).
Thank you. So simple it's ridiculous! All the angles are there. The common, the hip / valley, the backing the fascia, the sheathing, everything. I've got roof framing books that make you jump through a bunch of hoops to get all that info. And its right there, so simple, this way.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
Seems to me....<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Taking your concept to the next level is an obvious expansion of this method. Let’s apply this to irregular pitch roofs. Two pitches, two blocks/(cuts), two plan angles....<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Are you following me? <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
(Now… nobody in their right mind is going to run fascia square to both sides of a bastard hip. (Fascia width issues) That’s not my point. But you can solve all the other pertinent data using your/the block cut method as well.) <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Right mind? What’s that? (Ah...don't ask me... =)<!----><!---->
....it ought t'work.
Edited 9/19/2009 12:39 am ET by MrJalapeno
That's true MrJap. I used to pick up the scraps and show the boys how the angles were always present in the same ratio that they would know from there framing square application.
Exactly!
OK, I'm working on it. You could, by the way, run a square cut fascia, it just would have to be square to one side or the other, and then you would have to compensate with the angle and width on the adjacent side. Be kind of a hassle, but it would have that tidy "tucked under" look of the square cut fascia all the way around the hip.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Here's a model for an irregular hip with a 5:12 pitch meeting a 10:12 pitch at the end of the building.
It would require two pieces to get all the angles. One side, the 5:12 pitch, would be easy. Start out just like the other one, but don't set your sawblade at 45 degrees, set it at 26.5 degrees. The tricky one is the other side, the 10:12 pitch side. Haven't got that one totally figured out yet!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I’ve got plans for the day so I won’t be able to work on this immediately.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Using Sketchup, draw two blocks and tilt/rotate them to each pitch at right angles from each other and intersect them at the imaginary hip corner. Slice through the blocks at the intersection point with a plumb plan view angle plane. (Easier said than done?)
<!----> <!---->
(Edit) I think you are just cutting jack rafter bevels on a block.
<!----> <!---->
Good luck, gotta go.
<!----> <!---->
Mr J.
Edited 9/19/2009 10:43 am ET by MrJalapeno
Edited 9/20/2009 8:31 am ET by MrJalapeno
OK, I think I've got it. Here's the scenario for an irregular hip. The roof is a 5:12 pitch, with the ends at 10:12. The fascia is square cut to the 5:12 pitch.
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Edited 9/19/2009 2:32 pm by Huck
So, assume this is a 4x4 or a 6x6. First, lay out the 5:12 side just like the model for the standard hip. But cut down line 1 at 26.5 degrees, since its an irreguar hip. You now have all the angles for half of the roof. The leftover piece will yield the remaining angles, so hang onto it.
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View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/19/2009 2:55 pm by Huck
So you have leftover a piece that looks like this:
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
and... you could have all the remaining angles with 6 pencil marks and 3 cuts at 90 degrees, but unless you've followed along to this point, it'll only confuse ya' to go any further! Anyone with me to this point? (the remainder is harder to explain than it is to do!)
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/19/2009 3:44 pm by Huck
Huck,
Just where are the angles found? It would help if you could point or label them out. The reason I ask is because I checked your SU model and I can't seem to find them ;-(.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Just where are the angles found?
Joe - the model gives you the angles, in a 3D model. The only angle you need to know is the roof pitch, and you don't need that in degrees, you just need to mark it accurately. Use a speed square or framing square, start with the roof pitch angle, follow the directions, and you will end up with a 3D model that has all the angles of the hip roof, in a model you can hold in your hand. Transfer them to your work with a sliding t-bevel, or just by setting your skilsaw on the model as you adjust the angle of the base plate.
Each roof pitch will produce different angles. The SketchUp drawing shows how its done - it features a 5:12 roof pitch, but the angles are not given because they will always be different with each different pitch - but the means at arriving at them is what is demonstrated, and it remains consistent.
Once you grasp how the model relates to the actual roof, then all the angles are right there. You can measure them with a protractor if you want, but why bother? That's the point of this exercise, to find the angles in 3D without math or calculators or tables or measurements in degrees.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,A couple of things. . .You mentioned instructions on how to go about and layout the 4x4, but just where are these instructions found. I read the "tip blog" and didn't really see any that were "instruction like."This is what I was reading and are these the instructions?"Here's how it works: Angle A represents the pitch of the roof. Line 2 is drawn at 90 degrees to line 1, from the corner. It represents the run of the roof. And the green side of line 1 represents the rise of the roof.Line 3 is drawn at the same length as line 2. Lines 4 and 5 are drawn once the length of line 3 is determined. Line 5 represents the hip rafter, as line 6 represents the common rafter.If you cut away the dark brown portion, the piece remaining contains all the pertinent angles, in 3D, including the fascia compound miter angles, the roof sheathing compound miter angles (which are more important when working with thicker sheathing, like 2x planking), and the backing angles for hip and valley rafters."Another thing is wouldn't one need to know which part of the 3D block (a face and a side) would go against the saw blade and saw base to form the angle you need to cut? That's why I mentioned labeling them.Lastly the angle at "angle a", according to the model, is the seat cut angle for 5/12 roof, its complement would be the pitch angle.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
You mentioned instructions on how to go about and layout the 4x4, but just where are these instructions found. I read the "tip blog" and didn't really see any that were "instruction like."
OK. I'll try to restate it, sounding a little more "instruction like". =) How's this:
Draw angle A, the pitch of the roof. Draw line 2 at 90 degrees to line 1, from the corner. It represents the run of the roof. And the green side of line 1 represents the rise of the roof.
Draw line 3 at the same length as line 2. Draw lines 4 and 5 from the end of line 3, once the length of line 3 is determined. Line 5 represents the hip rafter, as line 6 represents the common rafter.
Then cut away the dark brown portion, and the piece remaining contains all the pertinent angles, in 3D, including the fascia compound miter angles, the roof sheathing compound miter angles (which are more important when working with thicker sheathing, like 2x planking), and the backing angles for hip and valley rafters."
Another thing is wouldn't one need to know which part of the 3D block (a face and a side) would go against the saw blade and saw base to form the angle you need to cut? That's why I mentioned labeling them
Bingo! - understanding how the model relates to the actual roof is the key! That's why I posted this photo, which clarifies it. And why I tell which part of the roof each line represents. Once you grasp that, you've got all the angles covered.
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edited to add: really, all you have to do is draw line one, at the angle of roof pitch, and cut along it at 45 degrees, and you've got everything. Jalapeno figured it out. But I spent a little more time describing the other lines, and how to arrive at them, and what they represent, to help visualize the way the model relates to the actual roof.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/19/2009 8:31 pm by Huck
OK, After rereading that line 6 times I figure you mean to draw lines 6 and 1 to form the seat cut angle of the common rafter. That helped make sense of a few things for me. Thanks.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe - here is a sketch showing how the model relates to the actual roof. Maybe it'll help you visualize what I'm trying to accomplish with the model.
You can see that line 6 is a common rafter, line 5 is a hip rafter, angle A is the roof pitch, line 2 is the run of the roof, line 3 is the fascia, and line 4 represents the fascia miter cut.
View Image
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/20/2009 1:08 am by Huck
and here's the sketchup modelView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,I really didn't have trouble understanding the model, but thanks for taking the time to post the SU file. The focus of my comments were more on the labeling of the model, not the model itself.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
"he focus of my comments were more on the labeling of the model, not the model itself."That was my problem too. If each leg or hypotenuse was labeled with a unit number, I'd quickly be able to understand it.
Jim,When I read your post here in this post is when I went back and looked at the model. I remember the first time Huck had posted this and, in all honesty I just glanced over it at the time. On a whole I think it's pretty cool ;-).There are two angles that are just not jumping out though, the hip miter angle and the saw bevel angle. I located the hip miter, but it doesn't appear to be in a useful place to use and I just don't see the saw bevel angle. If anyone knows where it is or how to construct it in the model, that would be very useful.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/20/2009 10:07 am ET by Joe
I think it's very cool. He's 3/4 done if he wants it to be a valid lesson tool. A few more labels and it would easily make sense to anyone that has actually cut a roof.
The way I see it, Huck is applying jack miters, or plan view angles/bevels, to a plumb line drawn on a plumb face of a block (representing the side of a Jack). The roof plane (top, or end grain) and the fascia plane (non plumb remaining side) are represented by existing sides of the block. Therefore, to solve for Irregulars, the reciprocal bevels need to be applied as you would for the jack rafters.
<!----><!----> <!---->
The first time I saw it I also only glanced at it without any semi-serious analysis too. Once it snaps in though, it’s simplistic coolness is revealed. I like easy!
Mr Jalapeno ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I believe Huck said he uses his saw as the bevel finder on his model. And that’s how I do it too.
You may have misinterpreted my question. Where is the bevel you place against your saw to find out what the bevel is. . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe,
Huck’s model is a tetrahedron consisting of three faces with a 90 deg corner and the third side created by cutting the plumb line at the (a) plan angle. It is the only non right angle side (face) that has three perpendicular lines that can be drawn off the edges into the corners (angles). These 90 deg lines will meet the other three faces with single 90 deg lines from their bevel edges to the right angle corner. The tetrahedron has 6 possible bevels and we already know 4 of them, 3 at 90 and one at the plan angle. (Using Huck’s most recent illustration in post 32) The angle pivoting the saw across the top, (line 5) is the hip backing angle, and the angle pivoting along line 4 is the square run fascia miter. And like he says, you don’t even need to know what the angles are, just set your saw against the model.
<!----><!----> <!---->
Is that the answer to your question?
You're right, it is a tetrahedron. Once that's understood, its easier to see that the angle of the fascia bevel is right there, where the two planes meet along the edge of line 4.
View ImageView Image
I'll elaborate more on Joe's and others' questions when I get a little more time - I'm on the run right now and gotta go.
I'm gonna try and make a video to explain a few things - maybe this evening.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Richard,
Thanks for such an astute explanation. . . To bad you failed to answer my "simple" question; where are the hip miter and the saw bevel angle to cut both the hip and fascia miters?
I know what they are and what they measure, just would like to know where they are on the "tetrahedron." You seem to answer like to know, but like a hoard don't want to tell the rest of the toads in the pond know;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/20/2009 8:18 pm ET by Joe
You're not the only one having a hard time figuring this out, Joe. If I can figure one angle, I can figure the rest and not sure I'd have a need for the extra aid of the 4x4 block.
Now, if Huck can layout the 4x4 without using anything but a tape measure I'd be a LOT more interested.
John,
The model wasn't that hard to understand and for what it is, it's pretty interesting. The trouble I had was with its labeling. The answer; "that if I understood the model I'd get it" just was going to far for me.
The only thing that this model has provided so far that would be slightly out of the ordanary was the hip backing and fascia miter angle, which don't get me wrong are a good things to know, but the other two angles are of equal if not, greater importance. If it's not easy to find them then the model just falls short in my estimation.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I'm anxious to see his video explaining it.
The only thing that this model has provided so far that would be slightly out of the ordanary was the hip backing and fascia miter angle, which don't get me wrong are a good things to know, but the other two angles are of equal if not, greater importance. If it's not easy to find them then the model just falls short in my estimation.
Joe - as far as I know, every angle in a hip roof is in the model. I don't think any of them are hard to find, but maybe that's just me. Here's a photo showing the fascia miter angle.
View Image
And here's another method
View Image
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/20/2009 8:53 pm by Huck
Here's a photo showing finding the hip or valley backing angle
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I'm not trying to be obtuse here but, I keep telling you that you (or anyone else) need to show "where" the "two" other angles are. Once again you are "missing" the hip miter and the saw bevel to cut both the hip miter and the fascia miter.
The fascia miter you show is only good for "laying out" the the cut on the fascia. It is the line you'd follow when you make the cut. The saw would need to be set to the saw bevel angle. The other angle is the hip miter which is also a line you'd follow while making the cut with the saw set to the saw bevel angle.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I'm not trying to be obtuse here that's ok Joe, it comes natural to some people =) but, I keep telling you that you (or anyone else) need to show "where" the "two" other angles are. Once again you are "missing" the hip miter and the saw bevel to cut both the hip miter and the fascia miter.
The fascia miter you show is only good for "laying out" the the cut on the fascia. It is the line you'd follow when you make the cut. The saw would need to be set to the saw bevel angle. The other angle is the hip miter which is also a line you'd follow while making the cut with the saw set to the saw bevel angle.
now pay attention: the angle you mark on the fascia to cut the miter
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the angle you set the saw at
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or just set the block of wood on the saw's base plate, and rotate the blade until it's tight, and that will leave the blade set at the proper bevel angle...
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
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"Well again it all right here."That's what you said in your video. If you are measuring that angle, the one in the video and the one in this picture, it's not the correct angle to set your saw blade at. If I measure that angle (I think I got the right one and measured it correctly) in your model it comes out to ~55° or its complement of ~35° whichever you prefer.
Also you still haven't shown where or how to get the hip miter as well.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
"Well again it all right here."That's what you said in your video. If you are measuring that angle, the one in the video and the one in this picture, it's not the correct angle to set your saw blade at. If I measure that angle (I think I got the right one and measured it correctly) in your model it comes out to ~55° or its complement of ~35° whichever you prefer.
Joe - You either didn't get the correct angle, or didn't measure correctly, it is the correct angle, and its not 55 or 35 degrees. Its actually very close to 39 degrees. (I have the exact angle, but not an exact tool to measure it).
Also you still haven't shown where or how to get the hip miter as well.
Hip miter? What is that? Where does the hip miter into anything? At the top, the plumb cut on a 6:12 hip is 6:17, the saw bevel is set at 45 degrees. At the bottom, it dies into the fascia, and I explained how to get those angles.
Do you want to understand the model, or just trying to find fault with it? I ask, because it feels like the latter, although I keep answering your criticisms hoping its the former.
edited to correct an error in describing the angle of the miter fascia bevel - thanks Joe!
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/21/2009 12:01 pm by Huck
if Huck can layout the 4x4 without using anything but a tape measure I'd be a LOT more interested.
I never know when you guys are joking or not. All you need to lay this out is the angle of the roof pitch, and a square.
To lay out the angle of a 5:12 roof pitch "without using anything but a tape measure", measure 5" along one leg of a right angle, and 12" along the other edge. Now, connect the lines, and you've got a 5:12 roof pitch angle.
Of course, if you really didn't know that, then this discussion is probably well beyond your capabilities at this point anyway. =)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
>", measure 5" along one leg of a right angle, and 12"<
then you wouldn't be using a 4x4 then would you? If I got a square I can get the rest. I usually have 2 or more squares set up when do roof framing.
Next time I get some spare time I'll fiddle with your SU model and compare it to the same cuts I'd make on the rafters.
I'm not banging on you, Huck. I figure we're always joking so that way none of us gets our panties in a wad.
Edited 9/20/2009 9:23 pm ET by john7g
I figure we're always joking so that way none of us gets our panties in a wad.
OK, fair enough. I just figured that any framer worth his salt could mark a roof angle - the angle of a plumb cut on a common rafter. I learned to do that within a few months of beginning in the trade, 30 years ago. That's the basis for my model. If you can do that, you can get all the angles in a hip roof with this jig. If you need someone to show you how to do that, then this jig won't help you anyway.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Ask an "astute" question, and.... I know, i should have posted the link to your calculator for you.... next time man.
Richard,
You seem like a dancing bear with neither a partner or an answer.
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The way I see it, Huck is applying jack miters, or plan view angles/bevels, to a plumb line drawn on a plumb face of a block (representing the side of a Jack). The roof plane (top, or end grain) and the fascia plane (non plumb remaining side) are represented by existing sides of the block. Therefore, to solve for Irregulars, the reciprocal bevels need to be applied as you would for the jack rafters.
The first time I saw it I also only glanced at it without any semi-serious analysis too. Once it snaps in though, it’s simplistic coolness is revealed. I like easy!
Mr. J: Glad to see you get it! Once you see how the model (or jig) relates to the roof itself, then you see that all the angles are there, and you can find them. The angle of the roof pitch, which would be the plumb cut on a common rafter, is all you need to do this. With that, you get the plumb cut of the hip/valley, the rafter cut for a square-cut fascia (which is not square on the hip/valley), the compound angle miter cut for the fascia, the backing angles, the sheathing angle, and so forth.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
If it's so easy, why not make it easier by labeling each of them?
If it's so easy, why not make it easier by labeling each of them?
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,<!----><!----><!---->
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I think Joe and Blue are saying that you are not including all the bevels and angles in the labeled illustration. It might require another view to the face not shown. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I would just use the block itself to mark the hips cut line with the fascia miter bevel.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Why would you do that when the angles are not the same. . . . . . The only angle that's the same for both is the saw bevel angle.
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flush hip at blue, mark red
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You just highlighted the "hip seat cut angle" but in this model it's the hip plumb cut. What angle are you going to use to mark the hip miter?
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OK, now I feel like a bear dancing with a toad in a pond.
What do you mean I just highlighted the hip seat cut angle? sheeeeesh!
Miter at the ridge? The original plumb line (with the block held flush at the shoulder as shown).
No the other left. . . .
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Edited 9/20/2009 11:58 pm ET by Joe
Thanks for that tidbit of information Mr Jalp. I think I now can ask a somewhat intelligent question.http://forums.taunton.com/n/docs/docDownload.aspx?guid=2EB35D1D-AE25-45AD-A086-ADBCFC122157&webtag=tp-breaktimeUsing the model that you started, and I added to; can you help me with the ratios? I'm trying to figure out how I would derive the numbers, mathmatically, with the framing square for this application. If my memory serves me correctly, the green line will be 12, the purple line is 13. Then, please explain where the miter would be on this. Could you draw another colored line for the miter?
No.
Do you mean 12 on 13 doesn't work for you?
Edited 9/21/2009 10:01 am ET by MrJalapeno
Well Jim,I guess that sums it up.
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Huck,In regards to the video, what did you use to cut that corner with. You had to have used either a 10" or 16" circular saw, a sawsall a hand saw or a bandsaw. Did I cover all the possibilities? ;-) I didn't think a standard 7-1/4" or 8" saw would make the cut.
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I was wondering the same thing. I know I'd start whacking it with my modified (safer) power saw but the accuracy of the deep cut seemed dubious.
I’m a little apprehensive to keep posting due to the chaffing going on. There is no reason to be uncivil here.<!----><!----><!---->
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But I have accuracy concerns too. To cut model blocks the size of Huck’s example proficiently would be a little tricky. Cut them any smaller and they may lose their effectiveness.<!----><!---->
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The only three angles I find necessarily complimentary to some roof cutting solutions are the square hung fascia miters and bevels, and the hip’s tail miter angle cut. The rest of it is common knowledge for any moderately experienced roof cutter. And there are reference books available with data charts for common regular pitch roofs too.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Introduce irregulars to the mix and …?<!----><!---->
Edited 9/21/2009 10:56 am ET by MrJalapeno
I’m a little apprehensive to keep posting due to the chaffing going on. There is no reason to be uncivil here.
You have the option to post or not, to be civil or not. Its all up to you.
But I have accuracy concerns too. To cut model blocks the size of Huck’s example proficiently would be a little tricky. Cut them any smaller and they may lose their effectiveness.
It was easy for me, but I have a circular saw that makes a 5" cut in one pass. There are other tools that would make that cut accurately. I should have added a disclaimer: this method is not for those who are unable to make an accurate cut on a piece of wood with anything other than a 7" circular saw.
The only three angles I find necessarily complimentary to some roof cutting solutions are the square hung fascia miters and bevels, and the hip’s tail miter angle cut. The rest of it is common knowledge for any moderately experienced roof cutter. And there are reference books available with data charts for common regular pitch roofs too.
If this method doesn't click for you, don't use it. I put it out there for those who might like it. It worked great for me, but I am a professional trained in the use of power tools.
Introduce irregulars to the mix and …?
The angles in a regular hip are different from those in an irregular hip. The methods used for finding the angles in a regular hip are different from the methods used for finding the angles in an irregular hip, because an irregular hip does not lie at 45 degrees to the ridge/commons in plan view, like a regular hip does. I could use this method to find those angles too, but it likely wouldn't benefit you, so I won't bother showing it - although the first half is laid out earlier in the thread.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
In regards to the video, what did you use to cut that corner with.View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
The angle I measured was off of the 5/12 model you posted. Just as a thought, why would you post a model with a 5/12 roof and then do a video with a 6/12 roof? Seems like it would make it a bit hard to "follow along."
None the less, if you are saying that the angle you have in the video is "around" 45-48° for the saw bevel, well that's not correct. It's more like 39°.
I already explained what the hip miter was. Lastly this isn't about "methods", it's about getting the information and the correct information at that.
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Edited 9/21/2009 11:26 am ET by Joe
The angle I measured was off of the 5/12 model you posted. Just as a thought, why would you post a model with a 5/12 roof and then do a video with a 6/12 roof? Seems like it would make it a bit hard to "follow along."
Well, I already had a 5:12 model, but the real point is to understand that the methods work regardless of the pitch. My gut tells me that you'd be no more amenable to this method regardless, so I'm not too worried about that! =)
None the less, if you are saying that the angle you have in the video is "around" 45-48° for the saw bevel, well that's not correct. It's more like 39°.
Well whaddya know, you're right there! If I use the jig as intended when I developed it, and set it on my saw base plate to adjust the angle, it comes out very close to 39 degrees, as you can see in the photo below. The problem arose in trying to communicate the angle, but the model's angle is accurate.
That's the beauty of the jig vs. book explanations, sometimes the explanations get muddled in communication/application, but the jig is a 3-D model you can hold in your hand, set against the saw blade, and double check on the jobsite!
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I already explained what the hip miter was.
You did? Musta missed it! What is it?
Lastly this isn't about "methods", it's about getting the information and the correct information at that.
Well, you're partially right. It is about methods - well, one method so far (but hey, others are welcome!), for "getting the information, and the correct information at that" - so I guess I gotta say, You're catching on!
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/21/2009 12:34 pm by Huck
Fair enough.
Thank you Mr Jap.
I think Joe and Blue are saying that you are not including all the bevels and angles in the labeled illustration. It might require another view to the face not shown. I would just use the block itself to mark the hips cut line with the fascia miter bevel.
"Tough tittie" said the kitty, "but the milk's still good." The jig may not be labelled to everyone's satisfaction, but all the angles are there. If my labeling isn't clear to Joe and Blue, I ain't gonna worry about it. I doubt Blue will cut another roof in this lifetime, and Joe is happy with his own methods.
I know you get it, and others have too. Its a tool that I developed and which I'm putting out there for those who want to use it. Its not a new freakin' religion.<!----><!---->
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/21/2009 4:04 am by Huck
Huck,
I agree, it's good enough for me. It’s a molehill. <!----><!----><!---->
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If someone is "obtuse" about it, maybe they’d get the point better if they just turned that thing over and sat on it. =)
It might good as your hat ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Now there's a visual for ya, you, sitting on the top of my hat. Lol
If that were the case you'd be in the toilet lol.
Now before this descends into the depths of depravity, do you have anything useful to add other than rhetoric? How about a method using Huck's model to find those two angles? Or is that something that's out of your scope?
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/21/2009 9:43 am ET by Joe
“…depths of depravity…”
<!----><!----> <!---->
That is a hat of a different color, fit you like a glove.
So, where are the labels that say "hip bevel"?
So, where are the labels that say "hip bevel"? I don't see "rake/fascia" miter either. I'm not trying to bust anyones bells, I just am saying that if there were a few more labels, the thing would make more sense to more people.
Not sure what hip bevel is - the backing angle? The backing angle is on top of the beveled hip. I showed where the hip is. Do you need me to tell you the backing angle is along the top edge? I showed where the fascia miters at the corner. Do I have to say that's where the compound miter angle is? Or could a guy who's framed a few roofs figure that out?
I labelled the parts. I drew a diagram showing how the model relates to an actual roof. Lets just say the rest is a trade secret I can't let out, and call it good.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
OK, here's the video version. If you can't figure it out, then don't use it. If you have a hip roof to cut, and this helps, great. It helped me tremendously when I was cutting hip roofs a lot. Its original, my own jig, and if it don't make sense then I guess I can't blame anyone but myself, because it makes perfect good sense to me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR9FlV2JXKI
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/21/2009 4:11 am by Huck
Sorry that I have offended you.
Sorry that I have offended you.
Jim - you and Joe have your own methods, and you prefer them. That's fine. I'm presenting a method I use to find all the angles on a hip roof with a square cut fascia. If you understand the model, then you'll understand where the angles can be found.
If you have a better method, great. I'd love for you and Joe to post your methods here. There are more ways than one to skin a cat, as Matt has pointed out. Mine is just one method, it has been field tested, and works. Please feel free to share others, and ignore mine, if it doesn't click for you.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Actually Huck, I don't have any methods for finding and cutting a square cut fascia. I've already stated that I can only vaguely remember doing one or two of them a couple decades ago.I have two motivations for posting in here. 1)I'm trying to understand it. 2)You mentioned early on; I;m paraphrasing..."a lot of people have a hard time understanding this". Silly me...I thought this was a discussion forum. So, when I discuss your "tool", you get angry and upset with me?!!! Am I to assume that you only want to discuss this with people who "get it"? Sorry for raining on your parade.
Actually Huck, I don't have any methods for finding and cutting a square cut fascia. I've already stated that I can only vaguely remember doing one or two of them a couple decades ago. I have two motivations for posting in here. 1)I'm trying to understand it. 2)You mentioned early on; I;m paraphrasing..."a lot of people have a hard time understanding this". Silly me...I thought this was a discussion forum. So, when I discuss your "tool", you get angry and upset with me?!!! Am I to assume that you only want to discuss this with people who "get it"? Sorry for raining on your parade.
No Jim, apparently you misundersand me, an easy thing to do with internet postings. I never said any of the things you are imputing to me. I would be happy to help you and Joe understand, as I would think is evidenced by my numerous detailed replies to each of your comments.
The hip bevel angle is found along the top of the hip, most roof framers would know that. Its not labelled, as you pointed out, or written on the model, but if you understand where the hip rafter is on the model, then you will understand where the bevel angle can be found.
The fascia miter compound angle is not labelled, as you pointed out. But its found at the end of the fascia, where it returns around the corner. Again, most roof framers would understand that. I can discuss where on the model you will find the fascia, and the angle as it returns, or miters, at the corner.
I admit that its not labelled on the model. But again, once you understand how the model relates to the actual roof, then you don't need the "label". In fact, in order to help you understand, I made and posted a video that specifically addresses your (and Joe's) questions. In it, I show where the fascia is, where the hip is, and how to find the pertinent angles related to each. If that's not considered an effort at a productive internet discussion, I guess I don't know what is!
Like you, I can enumerate many things that are not labelled on the model. In fact, if you watch the video, you will see that nothing is labelled. But all the angles are there. So a grocery list of what isn't labelled is kinda moot. The key, as I've said all along, is in relating the jig to the actual roof. Like, what framer looks at a house and says, Hey, the hip isn't labelled! Once you understand the construction of a roof, you know where the component parts are, and the angles too.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"The hip bevel angle is found along the top of the hip, most roof framers would know that. Its not labelled, as you pointed out, or written on the model, but if you understand where the hip rafter is on the model, then you will understand where the bevel angle can be found. "I know exactly where the hip is on your model. I still don't know where the hip bevel is on it.
I know exactly where the hip is on your model. I still don't know where the hip bevel is on it.
I don't know if this got answered to your satisfaction or not. If you know where the hip is, we're in business. Its already bevelled. Yup. So just set your saw on that edge (the top corner of the hip), adjust the base plate to the angle thats there, and you're good to go! Or measure it first if you'd like - just keep yer squangle or whatever square to the edge.
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"The fascia miter compound angle is not labelled, as you pointed out. But its found at the end of the fascia, where it returns around the corner. Again, most roof framers would understand that. I can discuss where on the model you will find the fascia, and the angle as it returns, or miters, at the corner." I know where the fascia and rake come together on the model. I don't know what angle I need to use to make them fit properly. I don't see anything on that model to give me a clue.
OK, I'm gonna go try and make another video, to explain. I doubt if I can make it any clearer than the first video, but I'm sure gonna try. At some point, I think that if it just doesn't click, then it just doesn't click, and there's no point in beating a dead horse, as they say. But lets try one more time. Stay tuned.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hey Huck,You speak to "us" like we have never cut a roof. You use language like "any roof cutter would. . ." Would what, throw that block off the roof? I understood the model just by looking at for a bit and wondered why there was no labeling on it. Anyone wanting to convey a point, in my opinion should make that point as clear as possible. You seem to have left a lot up to visceral intuition. Some people are visually, others tactile so there is a curve to when they "get it." Some get it quicker than others. The funny thing is I know where every angle is on that model and just wanted to know if you did.
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You speak to "us" like we have never cut a roof. You use language like "any roof cutter would. . ." Would what, throw that block off the roof?
Hey - you've cut more roofs than I have farts. Well, maybe not. But you've cut more roofs than I have! Didn't mean any disprespect.
The funny thing is I know where every angle is on that model and just wanted to know if you did.
That is funny. Now, here's the real challenge: can you explain it to Blue?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
The challenge is for you to explain it to him.
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OK, here it is.
A VIDEO FOR BLUE:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0QkARi9Q8
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 10/7/2009 9:14 pm by Huck
I watched the video. I'm no closer to finding the answers to my questions. I'm not a particularly fast learner when it comes to roofs so don't fret it. Just lump me in the 80% that don't understand it.
Huck,
I can appreciate anyone going out and giving it the "old college try" but,
did you ever stop think that if you took that block of wood and laid it on
some lumber to "demonstrate" how
it works it go a bit easier?
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Huck,
Something like this;
Layout and cut block.
Place block (in correct position) on common rafter and mark plumb cut.
Place block (in correct position) on hip rafter a mark ridge plumb cut.
Move block down hip to fascia and position block and mark hip miter.
Place block (in correct position) on fascia and mark fascia miter.
Set saw bevel with block.
Cut hip miter.
Cut fascia miter.
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Edited 9/21/2009 3:47 pm ET by Joe
now you're gonna make me work!
Wish I had a hip to frame right now! Several jobs I bid called to tell me I got the job...when (or IF) the money comes through. Yeah, right.
Gotta run down to L.A. and check on mom - just got hospitalized this A.M. at St. Joe's in Burbank, they're doing testing.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I asked early on in the Tips contest thread about the block. I was having a devil of a time understanding the process. I'm a visual person, I see it and usually can understand it. Out of a book it better be written well or I easily lose track.
I figured watching the first video you posted last nite would maybe help me pick it up. In it you handled that block like you "knew" where it would show you the cuts and angles. I watched closely and really got lost.
I have no doubt you know everything about that block, but I think I would stand there like a real dufus (someone flipping a framing sq. around trying to layout their first stair).
At least for me and a few other space cadets, you might need to explain (and using the model, point out) it a tad clearer.
thanks.
Hope your mother is doing well, our best to her!A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Honestly Calvin, I've about wore myself out trying to explain the doggone thing! The whole point was to simplify. I'm about ready to delete my posts and pretend it never happened. Apparently I'm the only one on the face of the earth who understands it, or finds any value in the thing. Which is fine, it served me well when I needed it. View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
You know man, worse things could happen.
Use it, enjoy it.
What the hey.
You should hear me try to explain something. Probably why I work alone.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Been there done that. I've used it and enjoyed it (which is why I know it works). But I sure ain't now. I'm not getting paid for this... with money or appreciation LOL.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Honestly, I didn’t find it that difficult to figure out. I think you’re getting your chain yanked. (Really Good too!)
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Maybe you should post a cad file screen shot of the paper version of your model block so everyone can print it, cut it out, and construct their own hand held model to evaluate (while watching your videos). It is just a jack rafter on-pitch miter cut applied to a block. Include a scaled hip, and common/jack rafters, and the fascia and level soffit, and the sheathing. The self explaining simplicity should jump out at those who do have a clue. (Everyone else should take it to bed with them.)
<!----> <!---->
Everything above the soffit level line is standard regular hip roof framing 101; everything below the level line is for solving the square hung fascia details. Maybe include a short explanation on using the block to solve the various cutting tasks.
I hope your mother gets well soon.
Edited 9/21/2009 10:15 pm ET by MrJalapeno
Nobody's yanking anyone's chain. Go back and read all of my posts. I've given his project a lot of love. If I give it anymore, I'll be accused of some block fetish. The simple fact is that we all learn in different ways. You say you understand it but when I ask you where the miter is, you don't answer. I think I've figured out where the hip bevel is but I wouldn't bet the farm just yet. I think the project is a grand idea and a great learning tip. It just needs a little polishing and a few more sidebar explanations to fulfill it's goal. There's no chain yanking going on here....at least not by me.
i "thought" i got it originally, now with 2 videos i easily do. As Blue stated we never see square cut fascia here, but im going to teach them about the block, it will never hurt them to use a scale model to find angles.
I struggled to grasp it but it easily enough as Calvin im a visual person, thanks for taking the time to tape a few videos i may even show them in class. The classroom is in northern Michigan so internet and phone service is very iffy.
The kids are going to enjoy this, i really enjoy roof math/framing and they are soaking up everything i can give them. Nice to have a classroom of apprentices that want to be there and learn.
Passing on what you know, what you build with your hands are the only things we leave behind when its all over. Thanks HuckWoods favorite carpenter
Thanks Matt. One post like yours is enough to keep me going for days!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I hope you don't mind if I try to help. This is a printable paper cut-out scale model drawn at 6/12. The equal pitch runs (blue lines) intersect at the blue circle.
I'm having more trouble understanding some questions than the concept. Isn't the idea behind this block to be able to answer your own questions?
edit; reposting smaller file below.
Edited 9/22/2009 1:05 pm ET by MrJalapeno
I like it!Now everyone will know where the hip miter angle is lol. At the hip and soffit ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
All kidding aside, that's an excellent tool to help understand this, all you need now is put some angles on it ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
New picture
Well, it a bit smaller. Maybe the attachment will print out better.View Image
Square Hung Fascia Calculator
There are links on the right to sketches, 3D models, an Excel worksheet, developmental geometry, etc ...
The geometry of square hung fascia is that of an irregular Hip roof using the same corner angle at the eaves with the reciprocals of the roof pitches.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/22/2009 1:17 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/22/2009 1:19 pm ET by JoeBartok
Hey Joe, your link isn't working for me. Please chime back in.
Don't open it up lol.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Duh!
Gentleman,
If these don't clear things up. . . . I'm cashin' in. . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
One more for good measure. . . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Richard, try again at a later time. Geocities only allows a certain amount of data upload/download per hour; others must be viewing pages at that domain and the limit has been exceeded. (LOL ... Yahoo is pulling the plug on Geocities in about another month, that ought to solve the data transfer problem).
The page linked to is the same calculator I've posted at JLC so you've likely seen it.Joe Bartok
Mine looks like this:
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/22/2009 1:30 pm ET by Joe
Joe - funny how things run full cycle. Here is my old paper model.View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
Yes that is funny, even funny still to a roof pundit. Lucky for you and I we don't know any. . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
heh, heh, heh. Have one on me.View Image
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/22/2009 3:10 pm by Huck
Very cool! I'm at my mom's house (no printer) so I can't really double-check it, but it sure looks right from here. Funny how things go full cycle - I started out with the paper model, arrived at with much tedium and trial-and-error (using geometry), which led me by coincidence to figure out how to make the wood scrap model.
Isn't the idea behind this block to be able to answer your own questions?
Thanks - that's it. The idea I'm sharing is that after a lengthy period of immersing myself in this, I discovered how to cut a simple scrap piece off a 4x4 or 6x6 which contains all the angles in a hip roof - in fact, the square cut fascia angles are just icing on the cake - but helpful to me because that detail is common here in southern calif.
That's really the crux of it, and if someone had shown me that a long time ago, I would still be thanking them today. The angles are there, all of them. If I knew only that, believe me, I would find them. So, knowing that, and having it explained to the best of my ability, if someone still can't see it, no harm no foul. Different minds work differently. On to other things.
I honestly don't mind the questions, if I feel there is a measure of appreciation for my effort, and the understanding that what I'm able to impart will be used to help someone who really wants to grasp how cut a hip roof, and for whom it has become important to understand how to figure the angles.
In other words, its not about parading what I know, matching wits with the roof pundits, entertaining myself or others, etc, etc. Its a conceptualization tool for understanding how the angles in a hip roof relate to one another, and a simplified method devoid of books, math tables, framing square choreography, trigonometry, or calculators, for modeling them accurately in 3D.
Look in the roof framing books and manuals (like I did) at how wordy and enigmatic some of the explanations are for figuring all the angles that are manifest in the model. Honestly, I have never seen a method for figuring all the angles in a hip roof explained so clearly and simply as this. It was an epiphany for me at the time I discovered it, and each step that has led progressively to your paper model has felt so also.
I'm frankly surprised at the cool reception this has garnered from most of the respondents. But like I say, it has been a great tool for me, and if even one person is benefitted from sharing this, then its been worthwhile. And through it all, I'm learning too. Your insights have helped clarify certain things for me, and I have the concept more clearly in mind now than I did when I began.
I originally marked the whole thing out, then cut following my lines. Your comment about the 45 degree cut was like, Duh, Why didn't I see that? I was too close. Coming from the paper model, I didn't see the obvious. So then I broke out the beam saw and cut one, and like Matt said, Yahtzee! - it made a simple concept even simpler.
Thanks for all your imput on this, it is much appreciated!
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/22/2009 1:38 pm by Huck
Thanks Huck, and you're very welcome too.
Since you "got it"....tell me where you see the miter angle.
Blue - what angle are you not seeing? Is it the compound angle where the fascia miters at the corner?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I'm really not trying to be a smartass here, but I'm just wondering how you were able to frame and cut this 5/12 square cut hip roof if you don't know what or where the hip miter is or located on the block?
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Thats what I'm trying to see: the miters where the rake meets the fascia.
Jim,
These might help:
View Image
View Image
View Image
View Image
View ImageView Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/22/2009 5:58 pm ET by Joe
LOL...actually they don't help. I should say, they don't help me finding that miter on the wood block miter. I know I can figure that angle using the framing square...but I can't visulize it or see it anywhere on Huck model. And...the two people who said they understand it all can't tell me either. At this point, I don't believe Huck's model shows the miter. I'll be glad to be proved wrong.
Jim,Well it doesn't show it out right like the common plumb cut or the fascia miter cut.The 5 graphics I posted are views of the model. The one you need to look at is the green one. That's the back or side that was cut on Hucks model. If you look closely you'll see a small line drawn from the hip plumb cut line square to fascia miter line, its angle is ~16°. That's the one we've been talking about.You have to measure to use that one as you can't use the block as a template for the cut.Hope that helped ;-)
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/22/2009 7:25 pm ET by Joe
Blue,
<!----><!----> <!---->
If this is the same question that you were asking me earlier, I assumed those cuts were so apparent that I figured you had to be asking about something else, and I didn’t know what it was. Sorry.
<!----> <!---->
I, like you, have encountered few square hung hip roofs and did not have a practical solution to this task in my bag of tricks prior to this thread. Thanks to Huck I have an easy one. (I got it)
<!----> <!---->
I labeled the paper model the way I did so you/all could see the matching roof components that the block could be held against (face-to-face) to mark the angles.
<!----> <!---->
So to mark the fascia angle, put the block’s fascia face (face-to-face) against the fascia board flush at the deck line. The saw bevel can be set on the saw against/pivoting on the line formed by the faces of the block used to mark the miter angle.
<!----> <!---->
To me, those are the valuable angles and miters that this block solves so nice and easy.
<!---->I hope I got that right for you.
edit;
It's probably obvious, but the method I describe would be using the mirror image blocks to mark the miter angles. (You could fold the paper model inside out) =)<!---->
Edited 9/22/2009 5:57 pm ET by MrJalapeno
Edited 9/22/2009 6:16 pm ET by MrJalapeno
Thats what I'm trying to see: the miters where the rake meets the fascia.
Jim - here is a recent photo of that "hip with square fascia" miter on a fascia I framed many moons ago:
View Image
To mark the line to cut, use this part of the model:
View Image
To set bevel, use this angle (be sure to hold angle guide square to edge):
View Image
OK, this is the way I'd really do it:
View Image
I think what's throwing you is that these angles don't look right. Its an optical illusion. Until you do one of these, its hard to visualize that those could be the correct angles - but they are. Repeat the process on the opposing piece, just reverse the angles to be complimentary, and Bingo, the fascia will miter together nice and tight.
--------------------------------
If it still doesn't make sense... have a cold brew with yer buds. Probably won't help make it clear, but it'll matter a whole lot less!View Image
Edited 9/23/2009 1:55 am by Huck
miter angle of? the fascia? Woods favorite carpenter
Jim,
Maybe this one will help as well. . .
View Image
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe,
The Hip tail miter angle you are showing is the same one highlighted in the photo I posted earlier. The block can be used to mark it. Flush blue line on top hip shoulder, mark red. (face-to-face)
View Image
Mr pepper,
I'm starting to have doubts. . . . . . . . What you outlined was the
Fascia miter. The angle in question is on the
cut side of the block. Not
any edge.
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View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe,
You really should do your home work first before making such ignorant statements.
Quote: "The angle in question is on the cut side of the block. Not any edge."
Well Looky there, it is... on the edge!
But thanks for you input.
Edited 9/23/2009 11:17 am ET by MrJalapeno
NSS,I told you that 15 posts earlier. . .. .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/23/2009 9:19 am ET by Joe
More like 25. . . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/23/2009 9:23 am ET by Joe
Mr Hottie.That ain't Huck's block. The name of the pic says it is, but it doesn't look anything like his.Is that supposed to be a picture of Huck's block?
Jim,
I'm an A&M pepper, I just look hot! Lol
<!----><!----> <!---->
The title of “Hottie” really should go to you. The stuff you used to post and the speed you posted it at was nothing short of awe. You’re one of the sharpest tacks in the box, and right at the top too.
<!----> <!---->
We all have our dull moments.
<!----> <!---->
I’m just guessing at why it didn’t “snap” for some folks here is, well, It’s not that it is over anyone’s head. The simplest things are often the easiest to just plane miss. (pun intended) They’re not over our head, they are just temporarily whistling through.
<!----> <!---->
This concept is so simple… I didn’t have it figured out before this thread either. But once I realized it was just a jack rafter top cut on a block, and coupling with Huck’s somewhat awkward explanation, “I got it.”
edit: to answer your last question, Yes, the blocks are mirrors.
edit again: a mirror'd block would work. ("fold the paper model inside out")
Edited 9/23/2009 10:45 am ET by MrJalapeno
Edited 9/23/2009 10:49 am ET by MrJalapeno
"Yes, the blocks are mirrors". Im not sure that answers my question. Heres another. Would I have to cut two different blocks; one for the right side and one for the left side?
Jim,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Yea, that's what I meant, if you were to use the block(s) to mark your miters, you’d need a pair of “Book Ends”, like pairs of jacks shaking hands on a hip, they mirror each other. Otherwise you could just collect the data off one block like Huck shows and carry on too.
<!----> <!---->
I think Huck has shared something very cool with us and even if he didn’t have it fully understood himself, the collective intelligence of this forum shouldn’t have much trouble completing the puzzle he presented here. I don’t mean to steal his thunder, he is the teacher, and I’m just an observant and eager student. He deserves most of the credit; after all, it was his sleepless visions that started this.
<!----> <!---->
So I say the same as others, Thank you Huck.
<!----> <!---->
There are still lots of questions that could be rationally discussed concerning solutions to the various roof cutter tasks. Joe Bartok’s Link isn’t working for me but I’m sure his solutions are referencing everything and more than I can come up with. Maybe he’ll return and post his stuff. His stuff is usually over my head but I think that Huck’s block method is going to help me “see” what he conveys better.
<!----> <!---->
And Joe F’s stuff is trig oriented to. I’m not that well versed with it so this block method struck a positive tone for me. I seem to do OK recognizing geometry though.
<!----> <!---->
I gave props early on in the thread. I agree that Huck has done a nice service. Your illustration adds to it. Now, if we can add some geometrical numeration to your sketched up model, it might make better sense to me. If I get time, I will do that.
Huck’s somewhat awkward explanation......even if he didn’t have it fully understood himself...Thank you huck
thank you, thank you. I feel like Taylor Swift receiving an award with Kanye West as the presenter! Hey, that's OK, its not about me, its about the method and the results.
Joe - I submit the angle on the hip end and the fascia miter ARE one and the same. See my illustration. Here I've cut the hip right up the middle. The light blue line is the trajectory (cut line) of the saw. The light blue lines are parallel. The purple line is the base plate of the saw (worm-drive), and the navy blue line is the blade. All the lines are parallel with their matching color. They have to be for this to fit together tight. Its the same angle, whether you're cutting up or down.
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View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/23/2009 3:40 pm by Huck
Huck,I edited this post because it really had no value. You guys can do as you like.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/23/2009 4:52 pm ET by Joe
You guys can do as you like.
As may you.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
WAIT WAIT! I had it before. WTF! Now I'm confused! (G).
wait wait for jimjimjim.
=) =) =)
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Joes drawings made sense...I think. I'm not following yours just yet because it looks like the drawing of your connection is a butt joint instead of a mitered joint. Maybe it's an optical illusion. The compound angle has two angles (i.e., the cut angle and the bevel angle). You are showing the cut angle and 90 degree cuts. That isn't a miter, is it?
View Image
No, its the fascia miter / hip cut right up the middle. When drawing compound angles, sometimes its hard to make them look like compound angles. Compare to the earlier picture (they're posted together here).
The cut line up the end of the fascia, and the cut line on the end of the hip, are parallel. The face of the fascia, which is the plane your saw base would ride on while cutting the fascia miter, is parallel with the cut on the end of the hip. The side of the hip, which is the plane the saw base would ride on while cutting the hip miter, is parallel to the cut at the end of the fascia.
Hence, the cut line (saw's trajectory) is parallel, the angle between plane of saw base and plane of cut (blade) are parallel, so I submit, the angles are one and the same.
I suggest you cut one of these out of a scrap of wood, or make the paper model, and play with it. What I've maintained all along, is that the angles are there. The longer you mark it up, measure it, study it, etc, the clearer it will become.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
just in case you don't believe me, I put my framing square on the fascia corner to prove it!
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
Yes and I'll get it right.
Tomorrow I'll shoot some video to post as a response to your video and how
everything you are saying in regards to the hip miter and fascia miter being
the same is incorrect.
Sorry to say that you sound like a bad politician who will say and do anything
not to look bad/wrong.
To be absolulty clear on this my positions are in regards to a
6/12 squre cut hip are:
The Hip miter cut line for a 6/12 pitch roof is
cut at a 15.76/~16° angle.
The Fascia miter cut line for a 6/12 pitch roof is
cut at a 24.09/~24° angle.
The Bevel miter's true angle for a 6/12 pitch roof is 50.77/~51°.
The (Saw) bevel angle for a 6/12 pitch roof is
the complement
of the Bevel miter angle (51°)or 39.23/~39°.This
is the saw angle that both the hip and fascia are cut at following their miter
cut lines.
When cut correctly the Fascia and Hip should form a 45° in plan
to each other and the hip should sit at and angle of 19.49/~20° from level.
The Fascia should be level.
The Hip miter and Fascia miter should align when they are both
in their correct positions.
Maybe you or Mr. Pepper can do the same.
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/23/2009 7:00 pm ET by Joe
You’ve got a real problem!<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Maybe, before you dive off the deep end and land in a dismal pool of yourself, you’ll go back and read this thread, and pick out the misinformation quotes you claim Huck or I have made, and post them for us.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
If you cut the model roof with the angles and bevels in your list then you should produce an accurate model. They are the same miters and bevels derived from the block model.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Video or not... That is the most Pointless Post you've made! What can you possibly hope to gain or share?<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Like a fart in a wind storm… utterly useless.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
That is the most Pointless Post you've made! What can you possibly hope to gain or share? That ur Like a fart in a wind storm… utterly useless. ;-)You do talk a lot of #### though. . . . lol
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I kinda wish I knew what you two guys are feuding about. I'm a little dense and I'm lost.The jabs at each other are somewhat amusing...as long as you two lovebirds still have feelings for each other.
I kinda wish I knew what you two guys are feuding about
they're just having fun...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
That's right!
If you’re not having fun, you’re not doing it right!
this is better than the Tav..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Like a fart in a wind storm… utterly useless
Did anyone ever tell you you get downright poetic when you wax eloquent? That rates right up there with Robyn's "like a hair in my soup"!! LOL!!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Joe is a pretty fart smeller. Lol<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
I'd like to suggest this as his new avatar. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
It's not really any easier on the eyes, but I like it more. =)
<!----><!---->
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Edited 9/23/2009 9:55 pm ET by MrJalapeno
I'd like to suggest this as his new avatar. <!----><!---->
I'm sorry - is that a different one? Are you sure?
Joe is just toying with us.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I like it!The only problem I see is that what's you are going to look like after the video lol. Nah, you look more like Moe ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
You've got that Ed Zachary disease.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
You look Ed Zachary like uncle Fester. Lol<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
You should do the vid in B&W. I can’t wait…<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Try to be original!
Sorry to say that you sound like a bad politician who will say and do anything not to look bad/wrong.
Man, if I could improve the way I look by what I say, I'd be rappin' like Eminem!
so...can I assume I have your vote?
Yeah, a vote of no confidence!! =) heeheehee
I want my beer back!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
The Hip miter cut line for a 6/12 pitch roof is cut at a 15.76/~16° angle.
The Fascia miter cut line for a 6/12 pitch roof is cut at a 24.09/~24° angle.
The Bevel miter's true angle for a 6/12 pitch roof is 50.77/~51°.
The (Saw) bevel angle for a 6/12 pitch roof is the complement of the Bevel miter angle (51°)or 39.23/~39°.This is the saw angle that both the hip and fascia are cut at following their miter cut lines.
When cut correctly the Fascia and Hip should form a 45° in plan to each other and the hip should sit at and angle of 19.49/~20° from level.
The Fascia should be level.
The Hip miter and Fascia miter should align when they are both in their correct positions.
Joe. We might not be so far off from each other on this. The hip miter angle and the fascia miter cut line are not the same angle, I agree. What I'm saying is that with everything in place, those lines are parallel. Then, again visualizing everything in place, the two planes formed by the saw's baseplate and the saw blade, are parallel - both for the hip miter and the fascia miter.
To me that's the beauty of this system. Arguing about angles and degrees leads to confusion. But when I have the angles in my hand as I lay out for the cuts, I'm much more likely to get it right.
I would love to do a video to school ya', but I'm at my mom's house right now, will be for probably the rest of the week. Looking forward to yours, 'tho. Anyway, I'm ahead by two right now, so you gotta catch up.
Man, you are an ornery dude. Kinda remind me of a framer! But you've stayed with us on this, gotta give you that. Methinks you've cut a roof or two!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"Man, you are an ornery dude. Kinda remind me of a framer! But you've stayed with us on this, gotta give you that. Methinks you've cut a roof or two!"Are you kidding...Joe lives for battle like this.
"Are you kidding...Joe lives for battle like this."Not true Jim, if it were so both Huck and the Mr.pepper would have been flamed long ago. Now it's just about getting and giving good information.But like good politicians both are beginning to change their positions. . . ;-). Along the hip and fascia miters were the same angle, now their not lol. Jim,I can give you everything with a square if you want it, you know I'm the the guy with the framing square ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/23/2009 9:49 pm ET by Joe
Along the hip and fascia miters were the same angle, now their not lol.
They ARE the same angle...just different degrees of the same angle (haahhaha)!
Hey, just funnin' ya'. What are you doin' with that crowbar?
--------------------------------
edited to add: OK, just to clarify. When you're describing angles, there is a lot of room for misunderstanding. Make it compound angles, and the opportunities for misunderstanding are compounded. Set your skilsaw at 5 degrees, and it cuts 85 degrees. Or wait, is that 95 degrees? Oh, but that's the blade angle. What is the angle of the drawn line that you are cutting along?
So my point is, before you go criticizing for someone's angles being "wrong", realize that its not always apples to apples in what's being discussed vs. what's understood.
That's the point of the model, which isn't your cup of tea, obviously. But I like it because it eliminates (for me) a lot of the confusion that results from reading books, articles, internet posts, and diagrams with angles, degrees, arrows, etc. And a book is a 2D representation, so to try to show a compound angle in a book, something can be lost in the translation.
The angles on the block work. They are what they are, you can call them what you want, name the degrees, argue about the terminology, argue about the math, etc, etc, ad nauseum. But they remain constant, and correct. We can err in transfering them to the framing member, but the angles themselves do not err. Which is why, when you understand how the block relates to the actual roof, you can't go far wrong.
The bevel angle on the hip miter and the bevel angle on the fascia miter are the same. But that's only the case when the fascia angle is measured on the fascia, and the hip miter angle is measured on the cut-off piece. And the cut lines are parallel - but not the same measurement in degrees when measured along the top edge of the pieces to be cut, because the fascia is level but the hip is sloped. But if you use the model, mark your cut lines appropriately, set your bevel with the model, and cut appropriately, it will all fit together snug.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/23/2009 11:45 pm by Huck
Huck,
Are you sure you haven't thought about running for public office? You're quite
good lol. You already have forgotten your past statements and remarks
and have placed the onus on others and simple misunderstandings ;-). You might
want to start going back and rereading your posts and make the appropriate
edits to match your fiction lol.
View Image
http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/24/2009 5:52 am ET by Joe
?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hey Joe,
<!----><!----> <!---->
Maybe I should remind you of your statement about not finding the miter angle for the hip’s tail cut on the block and not being able to use the block to mark that line.
<!----> <!---->
Quote from post number 144;
Jim,
Well it doesn't show it out right like the common plumb cut or the fascia miter cut.The 5 graphics I posted are views of the model. The one you need to look at is the green one. That's the back or side that was cut on Hucks model. If you look closely you'll see a small line drawn from the hip plumb cut line square to fascia miter line, its angle is ~16°. That's the one we've been talking about.
You have to measure to use that one as you can't use the block as a template for the cut.
Hope that helped ;-)
<!----> <!---->
“You have to measure to use that one as you can't use the block as a template for the cut”. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
So what did you really mean?
<!----> <!---->
Are you a politician? Or a Statesman? Or just some loud mouthed Bozo who looks like Uncle Fester with a chip on his shoulder and talks out his toilet hole?
<!----> <!---->
Maybe you should look in the mirror yourself you arrogant hypocrite.
<!----> <!---->
Or you could just apologize for being wrong.
<!----> <!---->
<!---->Is that why you're making this video, to cover that one up?<!---->
To the contrary Mr pepper,My statement was exactly as it should have been and I'm glad you quoted it. You can't use the block as a tool to mark the ~16 hip miter angle, you have to measure and then transpose it. You can use the block to mark:
The common plumb cut
The hip plump cut
the fascia miterYou can use the block to adjust your saw to:
The hip backing angle
The saw bevel miterBut you can't use to mark or adjust your saw to the hip miter angle. You would need to record it, then transpose it.On second thought I don't think you'll make a very good politician.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Just like a politician, hiding behind his own stupidity.
<!----><!----> <!---->
I don’t know why you can’t mark that angle because I can!
<!----> <!---->
See the blue line? Mark it on the hips tail!
... then stick it! Lol
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Edited 9/24/2009 9:34 am ET by MrJalapeno
That blue line was never the question. The discussion has been the miter cut on the fascias.
Then mark the blue line on the fascia.
I think they already told me I had to mirror the block. Anyways, the point is that the block was not labeled in a way that identified where the miter was. I was asking, and asking, and asking and it took forty posts. Now I have a different question. Does this same block work for a gable and fascia connection or does it only work on a hip roof?
Hey there Mr Vegetable. The goal here is to educate me...not prove each other wrong. Stop dragging up ancient history!
Blue Vainer, <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Posting the last graphic made something become apparent to me. You can use the block to mark both sides of the hip miter. For opposite side; Hip face of block to hip face, the blue line flush at the rake shoulder…so I’m still learning about this block too.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Next up;<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I would now like to nominate Joe Fusco for World’s Most Renown Roof Cutter.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Is that better?
Mr Long Green Thing that sometimes turns read,Why are you calling me names? I'm not a vaineer? I thought someone here said we couldn't use the block on both sides to mark the miter. Are you guys messing with my head? And no, I'm not satisfied that you sarcastically nominated Joe for Roof Cutter extraordiare or whatever you said.
I meant that sincerely, and along with the nomination, I’d like to present him with this.
<!----><!----><!----> View Image
Edited 9/24/2009 10:18 am ET by MrJalapeno
All in fun. =)
Jim,Don't let Mr pepper bother you, he talks in bunches when he's clueless lol. Don't you know peppers are very thinned skinned ;-).Hey Rich,The more you post the better that pointy hat looks on you ;-) Keep it up and soon it will be as pointy as the Empire State's building spire lol. Hope I don't have to sit on it LOL,LOL.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Edited 9/24/2009 10:25 am ET by Joe
Hey Richard Birch,That's you in there lol. Nice pose, was it sticky lol,lol ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Well I'm cashin' only because if we keep this up a pretty good tread will wind up being deleted. I'll only post with good info, maybe huck and the pepper can as well.Time to make a video ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Can I help? I've got some great ideas...
Joseph Fusco,
That is the hallmark tactic of a politician. Avoid the issue of possibly having to apologize or defend their dumb actions or statements and divert the observer’s attention with offensive remarks. <!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
When you make this movie, are you going to bother actually proving that the block won’t work as Huck and I know it will? I mean, what's the point if you don't do that?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Btw, I’m glad you’re amused; I just wish you’d act with a little integrity too.
"I just wish you’d act with a little integrity too."Why would wish for that? Do you really care?
Whew! Having done a quick read of the posting, for equal roof pitches:
There's certainly nothing wrong the the geometry of Huck's block. I've attached a wireframe sketch from the one of the pages linked to in the calculator I posted ... Projection of Angled Fascia to Hip Rafter ... with the tetrahedron corresponding to the section cut from the block circled. The angle measured at the Hip tail and the angle measured on the fascia can be transferred directly from the block to the sticks. The dihedral angle between the triangular planes representing the fascia and side (plumb) face of the Hip rafter can be measured, the complement of this angle is the Hip-Fascia saw blade bevel setting.
Joe Fusco also posted a list of angles appropriate to make the cuts for a 6/12 roof with a compound miter saw (which is also how my web-based calculator returns the angles).
It seems the bone of contention is which angles being defined as the "miter" and "bevel" ... are we reading them on the saw, or measuring them on the sticks? And with reference to what line? The plane on Huck's model representing the fascia has a right angle so we can pull the saw miter angle from the block. Not so for the Hip rafter saw miter angle ... to find this angle we have to drop a perpendicular from the line representing the long axis of the Hip to the opposite vertex of the triangle (see the other attachment, an annotated version of the leftover peice Huck's model).
Peace, guys.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/24/2009 11:42 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 11:49 am ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 11:54 am ET by JoeBartok
The forum won't let me add another image to my previous post, so here's the annoted picture of the "leftover" section of Huck's block showing the Hip rafter miter angle as used on a compound miter saw.
The triangle seen on the leftover section of the block is triangle a'-b'-c' in the second drawing titled "Common and Fascia Pitches projected to plane of Hip Rafter": Projection of Angled Fascia to Hip Rafter.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/24/2009 12:07 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 12:59 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 1:00 pm ET by JoeBartok
If another line has to be dropped, then I think Joe was right about not needing any other tools. I'm not picking sides.... and I sure hope the Vegetable guy doesn't get upset with me. I'm going to be honest here....I'm not that much closer to understanding any of this LOL.
Damn that Vegetable guy, where is he, let me at him... Lol
And the beat goes on. . . . and the beat goes on. . . .Give it a rest Richard.You can not use the block as a tool the draw the line for the hip miter no matter how many colors you make it. All you can do is record the angle (if you know where it is to begin with) then use that measurement to scribe the angle. The block will give you the angle if you know where it is.
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thought this might help demonstrate how the block relates to the hip miter angles
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
this is the angle to scribe to cut the hip miter bevel
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This is the angle I use for cutting the hip miter bevel. As mentioned earlier, I really just set the block on the saw base and adjust the blade. This is the angle for the offcut on the hip miter bevel.
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
this angle:
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is this angle:
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Now we are getting somewhere!
No it's not. . . . . . .It might be the one you used though. . . Their only about 3° apart so it really wouldn't be a big deal in the smaller rafter, but if the rafter was 2' wide you'd notice. . . .
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No it's not. . . . . . .It might be the one you used though. . . Their only about 3° apart so it really wouldn't be a big deal in the smaller rafter, but if the rafter was 2' wide you'd notice. . . .
OK Joe, I'm listening. As persistent as you are, I'm willing to go back and rethink that detail. Especially if your calculations show it being that close, that would explain why it has consistently worked for me. I think it would take a deeper hip and deeper rafter, more than a wider rafter, to really show it.
I'd have to go back to my sketchup model, and examine that statement. And I don't have access to sketchup on my mom's computer (downloading the freebie version as we speak). Thanks for staying with us on this one, I'll go back and re-evaluate that particular detail when I get a chance.
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/25/2009 2:28 am by Huck
How is your mom doing?
Better, I hope.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eliminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
Thanks for asking, and thanks to the others, too, who mentioned her. She's home from the hospital, recuperating. All the tests came out negative, so they don't know what it was. Stress maybe - she has a "spot" on her lungs that they noticed in a recent x-ray, and she's been worrying over it. My stepfather was a heavy smoker, and she breathed his 2nd hand smoke for 30 years. She goes in for a consulation on the lungs soon (she was scheduled for the day the paramedics took her to the hospital for dizzyness and shortness of breath). So we'll see, but for now, its all good.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Glad to hear she's feeling better. Too bad you don't live closer. Any plans about that in the future? Just moved closer to my mom. Even with 5 kids, somehow, I am The One.
I really like your clever sculpture!
;-)
Seriously, have enjoyed this thread...well, for the most part.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eliminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
Thank you!
I am still un-convinced. I went back to sketchup and re-evaluated, and came up the same. I can't see another plane 3 degrees different. The two planes below the fascia are 90 degrees to the roof pitch, as you would have with a square cut fascia, and they intersect right where I figured them. The line of their intersection is used to make the model, and it works for the fascia miter AND the hip miter. If I'm missing something, someone will have to show me.
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"If I'm missing something, someone will have to show me."
Looks good to me (ooh, the pretty colors too!). I am quite sure they will be along shortly, lol.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eliminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
Huck,
I'm running out of different way to show this. . . . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
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I'm running out of different way to show this. . . . .
I can't make heads or tails of that. Oh no, I think I may have Jimallen's disease!
View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/25/2009 2:24 am by Huck
I've got optical delusionitis.
Huck,
I get the feeling you think I'm breaking your chops over this, and to some
extent I am, but not for the reasons you may think. I'm all for the simplest
and easiest way to do anything. . . with the greatest degree of accuracy period.
Your block to some extent does just that and for many will work just fine
whether they use the angle you call out for the hip miter or they just record
the true hip
miter.
I just wasn't comfortable with your persistence in telling that that angle
was the hip miter when I know it's not. I've done this once or twice so I think
I have a handle on it. I'm usually about 98% correct with my posts and my experience,
but there has been a few times where I have stuck my big foot right into my,
at time even bigger mouth. I also know how to admit when and if I'm wrong.
To bad I can't say that about some others that I've met here.
Once again to be candid, I think your block is a nice exercise in this, but
it's something I see most guys only doing once, if at all. You can do all of
what's on the block with a square with just about the same effort. There really
is no need to cut the block or spend the time to make one when everything (almost) is already on the framing square.
If you hold your fingers on the square at:
The unit rise (6) and 12 you have the common plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and 17 you have the hip plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and the hip unit length (it's on the square) you have
the backing angle.
The unit rise (6) and the common unit length (it's on the square) you have
the Fascia Miter Angle cut line.
The unit run (12) and the common unit length (it's on the square) you have
the plywood sheathing angle.
The unit run (12) and the hypotenus length of the Fascia Miter Angle (measure
it) and you have the saw bevels.
The only thing that gets a bit tricky is:
The hip miter (lol)
And here is the impetus of the issue, does it take less time to construct
the angles using a square then it does to layout and cut your block. Sadly
at this time i don't have the answer to that, but when I do, I'll let you know.
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Edited 9/24/2009 6:43 pm ET by Joe
Joe, I helped you out a little here. I found my square in the garage. It was right on top...If you hold your fingers on the square at:
The unit rise (6) and 12 you have the common plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and 17 you have the hip plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and the hip unit length (18) you have the backing angle.
The unit rise (6) and the common unit length (13.42) you have the Fascia Miter Angle cut line.
The unit run (12) and the common unit length (13.42) you have the plywood sheathing angle.
The unit run (12) and the hypotenus length of the Fascia Miter Angle (measure it) and you have the saw bevels.I'm real fuzzy (that means I don't have a clue) about that last line. I'll have to dredge up some of the drawings and see if I can figure out what you are saying.
Edited 9/24/2009 9:05 pm ET by jimAKAblue
This is the way I see it... and the way my block shows it. I've tried seeing the hip miter angle as being different, but am unable why that would be the case at this point.
Joe Bartok says "...the angle measured from the long axis of the Hip is correct. There's no reason whatsoever the block can't be used to mark the correct line on the Hip rafter.", so I take it to mean he sees it the same?
If I get a chance, I'll frame up a hip with larger pieces of lumber, and see if it makes a difference.
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View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/24/2009 8:43 pm by Huck
Your SU model isn't showing you the angle you need or you don't know how to make it show the angle you need. As long as you think the model is showing what you need, you'll never know what you are missing.To that end there is nothing I can help you with. Also Joe B didn't say what you think he said. But if you want to think he said what you wanted to hear that's ok too.
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Joe Bartok says "...the angle measured from the long axis of the Hip is correct. There's no reason whatsoever the block can't be used to mark the correct line on the Hip rafter.", so I take it to mean he sees it the same?
Huck: I've attached another annoted version of your pic of the "leftover" block showing both the angle on the tetrahedron you are using to scribe the miter line and the angle Joe F. is talking about (the Hip rafter saw miter angle for a compound miter saw, complementary to the angle you are using).
I don't really understand what the controversy is about. Your model illustrates the square fascia geometry, lines, planes and angles clearly, and both angles produce the same correct miter line at the foot of the Hip. Which method or angle to use depends on how one intends to make the cut.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/25/2009 9:54 am ET by JoeBartok
Theres no controversy. That stuff goes on in other threads, not here.
Controversy?
I made a remark that the easiest way to mark the miter angles found on the block was to use the block it self. I highlighted the angle in Huck’s block photo as an example. Flush block’s hip line with hip shoulder (Blue) and mark the hip tail miter (Red)
From:
MrJalapeno <!----><!---->
Sep-20 11:16 pm
To:
Joe <!----><!---->
(70 of 284)
124518.70 in reply to 124518.65
flush hip at blue, mark red
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These subsequent graphics and statements post by Joe F seem to contradict each other, “Align with hip top/edge" and “You have to measure to use that one as you can't use the block as a template for the cut”. <!----><!----><!---->
From:
Joe <!----><!---->
Sep-23 5:21 am
To:
MrJalapeno <!----><!---->
(150 of 284)
124518.150 in reply to 124518.147
Mr pepper,
I'm starting to have doubts. . . . . . . . What you outlined was the Fascia miter. The angle in question is on the cut side of the block. Not any edge.
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He has maintained this statement/position that the block cannot be used to mark the square hung fascia hip tail miter angle. <!----><!---->
I think he has simply missed it here and evidently wants to be right so bad it’s blinding him. He’s a big boy, he’ll get over it.
The block can be used to scribe miters from and it's a simple great tool to do so with! Thanks again Huck!
Edited 9/25/2009 11:30 am ET by MrJalapeno
Richard,No the other left. . . .
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http://www.josephfusco.org
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The angle in question for me is the hip miter angle. You can not use the block
to draw that angle. You can only record it and then transpose it to the work.
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Joe's drawing doesn't show the saw bevel angle it shows the hip miter. The
hip miter is just the counter pitch - hip pitch. The full angle there is 30.51°
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Edited 9/25/2009 2:25 pm ET by Joe
In either case you still can't use the block to draw it.
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Joe,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
If you orient the block in the fashion that Huck and I have been trying to show you, it’s a piece of cake.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Just keep looking at it, you’ll see it.<!----><!---->
Joe, true, the block doesn't give the 14.09252° Hip saw miter angle (this is for the 5/12 roof). We have to draw a perpendicular as shown on the development.
But we can place the block as Huck or Richard show, along the line of the Hip length, and scribe the complementary 75.90748° angle (Hip Pitch + "counter Hip" pitch = 16.41644° + 59.49104°). Then place the stick in the saw and align the blade along the line, use the block or cardboard model to find the bevel angle as measured from the saw table, and make the cut.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/25/2009 3:33 pm ET by JoeBartok
Joe,Unbelievable. . . . You are absolutely correct.I've been looking at that block for three days and have been seeing the hip/fascia edge purely from the prospective of the fascia's top edge. Seeing the common/hip edge as the edge to mark the hip with and the duality of also marking the common. The same duality just didn't occur to me for the other edge. I just kept seeing the fascia miter angle on that side. . . Kinda like tunnel vision.What set me off was when you said the complement. . . Well, time to wipe the egg from my face ;-)
Beers are on me. . . , literally and figuratively ;-)
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No other left...You hardhead! =)
"Joe,"
"Unbelievable. . . . You are absolutely correct."
That's really my favorite quote from this thread,
Do you mind if I use it?
I don't drink beer. Do you have any jalapeno's instead?
I've heard they're good for headaches, Therefore aka, Nature's Assburn. ;0
Edited 9/26/2009 1:53 am ET by MrJalapeno
The angle in question for me is the hip miter angle. You can not use the block to draw that angle. You can only record it and then transpose it to the work.
Just for the record: I dont use the block to draw any angles. I do exactly as you say, record it and transpose it to the work (with a sliding t-bevel). I do use it to set saw bevel angles, 'tho - but then I'm setting it on the saw base plate, not on the work to be cut.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I'm not a framer so I don't completely understand how to implement your hip roof mockup, but I get the concept. And I certainly don't understand any of the so-called "controversy" even though I've read the entire thread.
What I do want to say is that you are truly a class act for offering this tip and for fielding all of the questions in a very gentlemanly manner and even putting together a video to help. Yours is the kind of contribution I that come here for so a big thanks. It does not go un-appreciated.
Im glad Huck hung in here too. This has easily been the best thread for me to learn anything from in 2009.
Well let's not forget Jim,I had to wear some egg on my face for you to do so. I think that if I wasn't as steadfast in my thinking that the block couldn't be used to mark the hip miter many more people would still not quite be "getting it".But hey, what are friends 4 lol.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
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That'll teach you to show off your fancy wood jigs on the internet! On yeah, and if you post another picture of someone holding a circular saw by the blade I'm telling the mods. It made my skin crawl ;)
That'll teach you to show off your fancy wood jigs on the internet! On yeah, and if you post another picture of someone holding a circular saw by the blade I'm telling the mods. It made my skin crawl ;)
Hey, simple is the opposite of fancy! The questions were fancier than the point of discussion! Saw was unplugged - hard to demonstrate by photo sometimes when you're demonstrating with one hand and photographing with the other!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
The saw was unplugged, the gun was unloaded. Tell it to someone whose fingers all bend like they should.
Your simple block generated more than 300 posts of great discussion, at points ascending to high comedy, with a satisfying ending. What more could we ask for?
Your simple block generated more than 300 posts of great discussion, at points ascending to high comedy, with a satisfying ending. What more could we ask for?
that's funny right there.
You never know what reaction you'll get, when you post something on the internet! I posted that tip on FHB's tip competition, thinking it would be taken as an obvious stroke of genius (well, OK, that's a bit of a stretch, but an original tip that has useful applications at any rate), and got beat out by a drywall patch method out of a time-life how-to book 20 years old thats already long been posted on the internet D-I-Y websites!
Then Matt Swanger brings the subject up here, in front of y'all, and well, the rest is history! Now my block will forever be linked with the full body condom LOL!!!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
No idea why, when this song came on today, I thought of you and this thread...lol:
Tryin' to find me something better here on the streets of Bakersfield Hey you don't know me but you don't like me say you careless how I feel
How many of you that sit and judge me ever walked the streets of Bakerfield
Best wishes for more work for you in the future.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eliminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
Joe,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
All kidding aside, “With every negative comes a positive”. Fact in Math? Supposed in Life.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I got to say, “That was a pretty good little slug fest.” A lot of cheap shots (-), below the belt hits (-), kindergarten debating, adolescent controversy, major BS (-, -, -), and some really cool graphics, (+++…)…. A few things may have even gotten into the red zone of the acceptability gauge. Wasn’t it Great!<!----><!---->
Btw, <!----><!----><!---->
“Joe,<!----><!---->
Unbelievable. . . . You are absolutely correct.”<!----><!---->
(I knew I’d get to use that one.)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
That is my picture on the wrapper on the FBC costume! (From about 35 years ago) Lol =)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For what it’s worth, you made me look. I didn’t see it, but you still made me look.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Also, I think this is a good analogy for some lessons in life. "Like the bite of a jalapeno, the fires eventually fade." (And it fades quicker with a little sugar actually, that’s why the candy’s on the counter.) <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
So put some sugar on it Joe. It wasn’t all bad. Thanks for the memories…<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
How about a big round of applause for Joe everyone?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
(Clap, clap, clap, claa………….)<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Isn’t that kind of funny, I wear the condom, and you get the …applause?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Edited 9/26/2009 11:44 am ET by MrJalapeno
I liked you better when you were being mean.
Blue,
I talk a mean hammer, but I can back it up too. +)
I don't talk a mean hammer, now swing one. I'm a #### cat...declawed.
jimAKAblue,
<!----><!----> <!---->
“Talk a mean hammer” is an old framer’s verbal slight applying to boaster who shouldn’t be boasting. I’d hire a new guy who’d claim he could frame any house, cut any roof, and within a day or two he reveals that he doesn’t even know what square is, and can’t read a tape, much less the plan. They “Talk a mean hammer” and the truth gets them broomed down the road.
<!----> <!---->
Point is, if you’re going talk big, better be able to walk, one way or the other.
<!----> <!---->
Remember the old metal Sands Levels with the “Tell the Truth” script embossed on them?
I don't remember the slogan anywhere. I guess I'm not as old as you.
The guy I got it from was older than us, and He probable got it from someone old than him.
Here's the development of Huck's square fascia tetrahedron to make a model from a cereal box or posterboard. Start with the common run, rise, Hip run (to any scale that's convenient), draw a few perpendiculars and mark the line lengths with a compass. Cut it out, fold and tape and you're good to go.
Better yet: try making the wood tetrahedron described by Huck. It's easier to lay out and cutting with the saw creates the triangles. Use the tetrahedron (posterboard or wood) to make a Hip roof mockup the way he shows in his photos.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/25/2009 11:27 am ET by JoeBartok
Why do I suddenly crave an ice cream cone after seeing that?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
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Don't they serve ice cream over at the tav? First one's on me! Lol
Edited 9/25/2009 11:37 am ET by MrJalapeno
I'll have a chocolate twist please.
I want a beer.Joe Bartok
Coool! Party time!
I need some asprin, y'all gave me a headache.
I think I'll rethink timber framing my Spheramid.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
View Image
Brain Freeze! You're not 'supposed' to gulp it. =)
(get it?)
Edited 9/25/2009 1:01 pm ET by MrJalapeno
That is how I did mine. I left out the developing arcs for the cutout.
Thank you Joe. This is the first model or block or pattern or whatever....that is properly annotated. Within ten seconds, I can make sense out of it and have an intelligent discussion. I'm glad you didn't pop in here with this illustration in the first ten posts or this thread wouldn't have been much fun.
Uh Oh! Trouble is brewing.Your numbers and angles don't match Hucks.
"Your numbers and angles don't match Hucks."
Blue, which numbers and/or angles? The development is based on a common rafter slope of 5/12 (Common Pitch Angle = 22.61986°). I was in a hurry when I drew that and may have made a boo-boo. (EDIT ... or I might have labelled angles complementary to those Huck shows on his model).
Also, there's one thing this development doesn't give us ... the Hip and fascia saw blade bevel angle of 40.74654°. Alternatively, if we make the wooden model the complementary dihedral angle of 49.25346° may be measured with a gauge and set from the saw table as Huck shows in his photos.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/25/2009 12:04 pm ET by JoeBartok
Well that explains it. Huck and Pepper's paper model are using 6/12. I forgot where the mixup occurred but I think it was explained somewhere in post #2,134.
"Huck and Pepper's paper model are using 6/12. I forgot where the mixup occurred but I think it was explained somewhere in post #2,134."
Sorry about that, I should have given the common pitch as well as the angle on my drawing. I was using the original 5/12 seen on the tetrahedron in the photo waaaa...aaay back in Huck's Post #5.Joe Bartok
I like 5/12 better anyways. Nice clean easy numbers....5 12 13...12 13 umm....17.69. I had to look...I don't remember them by heart anymore.
Joe,No I'm taking about the hip miter "cut" line who's angle 15.76° not the saw bevel angle.
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Jim,You have the unit lengths for the common (13.42)& hip (18) backwards in line 3 & 4.The last line means that when you find the fascia miter just measure the length of the line from 6 to 13.42" it around 14-3/4 or so then use that and 12 to get the saw bevel angles.
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http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Good eyes! Thank goodness someone is reading this stuff!
Joe, your explanation was: "The last line means that when you find the fascia miter just measure the length of the line from 6 to 13.42" it around 14-3/4 or so then use that and 12 to get the saw bevel angles."to explain this: "The unit run (12) and the hypotenus length of the Fascia Miter Angle (measure it) and you have the saw bevels.""The unit rise (6) and the common unit length (13.42) you have the Fascia Miter Angle cut line."I had to post them together to study it.Okay, I got it..it measured 14.75. Now..i gotta take all these dimensions and annotate Hucks block. If I can get them all on the block, I'll finally be able to make sense out of it.
Okay...here is the numbers (corrected) and finalized. If you hold your fingers on the square at:
The unit rise (6) and 12 you have the common plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and 17 you have the hip plumb cut angle.
The unit rise (6) and the hip unit length (18) you have the backing angle.
The unit rise (6) and the common unit length (13.42) you have the Fascia Miter Angle cut line.
The unit run (12) and the common unit length (13.42) you have the plywood sheathing angle.
The unit run (12) and the hypotenus length of the Fascia Miter Angle (14.75) and you have the saw bevels.See, we'll never have to know any degrees although it will be helpful to note what those bevels and miters are after I get them marked on the lumber. I'll write a note about them on my saw base...what's left of it.
Well Jim,
That depends ;-)
The most difficult part of this is finding the Hip Miter Cut Line.
It is by far not an easy construction to do and can take a few steps. Basically
the
Hip Miter Cut Line is equal to the Counter
Pitch - the Hip Angle. Sounds easy enough ;-)
Just as a secondary note, you asked about the top scribe line for cutting
with a hand saw. Well you already have it and it's the complement of the sheathing
angle. That angle is the scribe for both the hip and the fascia.
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http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
"Just as a secondary note, you asked about the top scribe line for cutting with a hand saw. Well you already have it and it's the complement of the sheathing angle. That angle is the scribe for both the hip and the fascia."HUH????!!!!LOL. I was doing good until you unloaded that one on me. I thought we already had the numbers for the top scribe line.
Well we did. I just pointed it out lol.
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Excellent. Thank you for posting those numbers for the square. They will help me sort out all the red, green, blue, pink, fuscia, yellow, purple, black, etc lines that I have endured in this 300 post thread. It would have been nice if you had posted those numbers back there in the first ten posts...but it wouldn't have been as much fun. I'll do my best to annotate Hucks block pic. Tomorrow.
Joe,<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I hate to bring this full circle for the forty forth time, I must be thick as a brick…huh? (Hanging out in the produce department to long?)<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
If you could clarify by red lining the paper model why some of the geometry works and the other (Hip miter angle?) don’t, maybe what you’re concerning yourself with will become illuminated to me.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I have scaled it to the most recent framing square dimensions (6/12 with a 12” run, decimal), I’m still not seeing it. Are they the same or not?<!----><!---->
<!---->View Image <!---->
Edited 9/24/2009 11:43 pm ET by MrJalapeno
That looks cool, I wish I could print it up to double-check it. I have to say it appears you have totally grasped the concept I've been trying to convey. My mom's computer screen distorts the image, so its kinda deceptive for me to study it until I can print it up and fold it.
One thing, probably not a big deal, is that the end of the fascia that you have shown at the soffit end of the hip would in actuality be to the left of the green line - so it wouldn't really be visible on the model. The angle that the block gives is the angle that takes place where the back of the fascia meets the end of the hip. The reason I mention it is because its the reason I see the line at the fascia and the line at the mitered end of the hip as one and the same line.
View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
maybe what you’re concerning yourself with will become illuminated to me
I don't get it either. I posted my SketchUp model, with the hope that the area of concern could be identified on the model, and explained.
Maybe when the video comes out???
Meanwhile, I'm planning a bigger mock-up, using some beam scraps, which I think I have enough of. Have to check when I get home!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Hey, keep it up you guys. I'm way below all y'all's expertise, so I actually haven't been able to figure out who's right, but I love, love, love this thread. I've read every single post as they've come up.The intention to clarify, the argumentative ballsiness, and the level of experience it takes to distill the argument. All the drawings and models and printable paper, that's some deep ####.Just wanna say thanks, for the education, and for the entertainment. Good stuff.And Huck, thanks for the demonstration- I'm not sure if you're 100% right or 98% right; and I don't much care: either way, you have made me think about and see roof framing in a whole new way. Thanks.k
And Huck, thanks for the demonstration- I'm not sure if you're 100% right or 98% right; and I don't much care: either way, you have made me think about and see roof framing in a whole new way. Thanks.
My work here is finished. Just kidding. Nice to have some new voices in this crowded little attic under the hip roof!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Oh, we've been up in the rafters (and fascia boards) enjoying the view the whole time. It took me 250 posts before I got up the nerve to peep. There's whole flocks of us up here, I'm sure.For now, I'm just soaking it in. k
Okay Mr Hottie,We are getting closer. Thanks to Huck's followup comments, I finally figured out that your maze of lines and goofy drawing was a paper cutout doll. I really wouldn't have pegged you for playing with dolls and stuff, but, IT WORKED! So, I printed it out and borrowed my granson's scissors and I'm now armed with a a small pointy paper doll that I can take out into the world and build houses with. Very unique. I think you should patent it. Anyways....it helped me a lot to glue and staple and study the thing...even though it's not in living color anymore (I didn't want to walk to the color printer).But alas...even though my tetrhadeon blob looks like Huck's thingy...it's wrong handed! So, when I hold it up like Huck is in his picture, with his dollhouse roof, it don't work for me. I have two solutions. Help me out here. Should I print another one and turn it inside out? Or, can you do a reflection with your fantzy schmatzy drawing program and print the right handed version of this dehedryal monstrosity? Just wanted you to know I was perusing the pepper section last night...I voted for the Seranos.
Hey there Mr Green Thick Skinned Hot Stuff,I got bored waiting for your mirrored image so I built the righthanded one by using your cutout doll inside out. That actually was a good thing cause now I can annotate the thing differently so it make sense to me. Good job with that kindergarten idea!
Huck, right there is the way to go about explaining this block thing.
Beats twirling it around and talking about how you can find everything including your way home with it.
thanks.
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Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
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That helps a lot.
See you in the produce aisle!
I thought the point of contention was whether or not you could use the block to mark the miter angle on the hip’s tail. It’s funny (to me)that the fascia miter is obvious but the hip miter isn’t. Same arris, adjacent faces?
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That, I don’t get. Just because that face is not a right triangle does not mean it cannot be used to scribe the hip’s miter angle with. The edge of the model has common lines that can be used. (And it doesn’t take Einstein to see them .)
Maybe that was the "point of contention" and I missed that post (not surprising as there were only about 230 to read through). At any rate, while the scalene triangle doesn't give us the miter angle as used on a saw the angle measured from the long axis of the Hip is correct. There's no reason whatsoever the block can't be used to mark the correct line on the Hip rafter.Joe Bartok
Half of the questions and controversy I don't understand - the other half I'll answer as best I can. Joe Bartok has added another dimension to the block - the use of the leftover piece to mark angles too! Which is probably valid, I just haven't explored it yet. Problem is he used a drawing of the leftover piece from an irregular hip to annotate, which just muddies the water methinks!
I try to remember that the angle of the hip roof miter (not the bevel for same) is marked along the "hip" of the model, the fascia miter angle is marked along the "fascia" edge of the miter. The bevel is the same - sorta. The bevel from the block is used to cut the bevel on the fascia, and here's an important point - its used for the cutoff piece of the hip miter. I know that doesn't make sense to anyone but me LOL! In other words, its the compliment of the hip miter angle, so you can still arrive at it using the block.
Just to satisfy Joe (hahahaha - never happen, I know), I built a hip this morning using only the block to find all the angles. Here are the photos. My framing isn't perfect I know, but the angles all worked.
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View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/24/2009 1:30 pm by Huck
Huck, funny you should mention an irregular Hip, I was just going to post on exactly this topic, and I recall you posted regarding this way back near the beginning of this thread ... Post #21:
"Here's a model for an irregular hip with a 5:12 pitch meeting a 10:12 pitch at the end of the building.
It would require two pieces to get all the angles. One side, the 5:12 pitch, would be easy. Start out just like the other one, but don't set your sawblade at 45 degrees, set it at 26.5 degrees. The tricky one is the other side, the 10:12 pitch side. Haven't got that one totally figured out yet!"
Your block model will work for irregular roof purlins, purlin miter angle, the miter line on the Hip rafter, and the Hip-purlin dihedral (and therefore saw blade bevel) angle.
The problem with irregular Hip-Valley roof square hung fascia is that the planes of the fascia cross one another (as opposed to purlins which stop blind at the plumb face of the Hip). This dramatically affects the fascia miter and bevel angles, and creates the oddly skewed line at the foot of the Hip: here's another of the links in the calculator I posted: Square Cut Fascia Models. (The quality of the images kind of sucks; they were taken with a webcam).
The "block" will work for square fascia if the roof pitches are equal, for any corner angle measured between the eave lines (change the angle of the cut from 45° to the complement of ½ the corner angle). But at this time I can't see how to get the angles from your current models for irregular roof square fascia. That doesn't mean it can't be done and do post if you come up with a resolution.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/24/2009 1:45 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 2:02 pm ET by JoeBartok
Edited 9/24/2009 2:04 pm ET by JoeBartok
Irregular hip with the block: deserves another thread, when I get some time. But yes, I'm sure it can be done.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,Would have been nice to see some progress shots and not just the finished product from two angles. I'd like to see how you used the block to draw the hip miter? To quote "My cousin Vinny" was it a "magic" block, did you get it from the same guy who sold Jack is bean stalk beans?Sorry, I just couldn't resist ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
I didn't mean that you live to flame people. I mean that you love to debate this roofing kind of stuff. I am interested in the numbers that you would have to mark on the top of the hip, and top of the fascia to make the cuts if you were using a handsaw. I'm ashamed that I haven't hunted down my framing square to figure this out. I wasn't aware that you used a framing square that much. I thought you were a trig and speedsquare kinda guy.
I am interested in the numbers that you would have to mark on the top of the hip
You made me think: One of the reasons I gave up on the framing square books is that they would frequently describe how to mark the top of the framing members - but with the handsaw in mind. In other words, before circular saws, they didn't just set their blade at 45 degrees and make a plumb cut. the angles had to be figured orthographically (ha! I don't even know what that means!) Anyway, the old timers really had to know their stuff to frame tricky roofs with a handsaw. Can you imagine?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
"I am interested in the numbers that you would have to mark on the top of the hipYou made me think: One of the reasons I gave up on the framing square books is that they would frequently describe how to mark the top of the framing members - but with the handsaw in mind. In other words, before circular saws, they didn't just set their blade at 45 degrees and make a plumb cut. the angles had to be figured orthographically (ha! I don't even know what that means!) Anyway, the old timers really had to know their stuff to frame tricky roofs with a handsaw. Can you imagine?"Translation. . . he has no idea ;-) If he did believe me he would have said so lol.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
"I am interested in the numbers that you would have to mark on the top of the hip, and top of the fascia to make the cuts if you were using a handsaw. I'm ashamed that I haven't hunted down my framing square to figure this out."
Jim, it can be done. While I prefer solving the angles with trig the solutions can be obtained using developmental geometry. (There wouldn't be any trigonometric formulas without geometry, the geometry is the foundation upon which the rest of the roof math is built. Carpenters have been doing some impressively complex joinery with nothing but Euclidean geometry for centuries).
This too deserves another thread, but briefly: the angle on the top (narrow) plane of the fascia is the Sheathing Angle (this angle is on Huck's block). Ditto for the Hip rafter if it's already beveled. The attachment shows one method of developing the angle (labelled 90° – R3) on the upper shoulder of an unbacked Hip.
Joe Bartok
Edited 9/24/2009 3:39 pm ET by JoeBartok
Thats it! You, and Mr Tasty Pepper have answered the question! Now...I wonder if there are any grasshoppers in here learning how to create a roof using geometry. I'd love to see them show the numbers using the framing square. Of course, they'll have to show their work....
As I look at your sketchup model, it occurred to me that no one ever taught me anything about that style overhang. We didn't learn anything about them in school and I never had any carpenter or mentor discuss them. I probably would have spent time figuring them out if I ever had to build them because I would have had to make all the cuts from a theoretical basis to build the overhangs down on the ground. It looks like an interesting thing to learn about. Your block solution is something I would have liked to see, use, understand and implement if I was building them...back in the day. Alas...I can only discuss this in theory though.
The hip is just a hip, of course. With the square cut fascia, I'd run my tails long, snap a line, and cut all the square cuts on the regular tails. Then I'd run a straight edge along the ends of the cut tails, to scribe a line on the hip or valley tail. Which worked fine. The bevel angle was always a little off, but close enough.
I really just wrestled and wrestled with this, because like you, I just wanted to grasp how the angles related to each other. Just for my own satisfaction. I read the books, studied the drawings, did the framing square thing (don't even remember now), did the trig, read Scott McBride's and Don Dunkley's stuff in FHB, and I still kept thinking, there has to be an easier way.View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
As you know, our methods are different. We would always have our overhangs built before the rafters were cut or installed. I would have to know how to cut everything in theory to make it all work. At this point, I really don't know how we did it back then. Since we didn't see it much, we probably just boogered our way through it.
we probably just boogered our way through it.
Man, you should have seen the scrap pile on the first one I did LOL!! What a mess!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I can imagine. One of the advantages of setting the trusses first, then cutting the tails is that you can use the visuals of your saw lined up to know if you are somewhat cutting the hip angle correctly. I've carved a lot of lumber by eye and it works fine if it's sitting in it place like a hip would be. The fascias are a different story. I'm sure I whacked them at 45 degrees and was dumbfounded that they didn't work LOL.
Jim,
I hope this makes the bell go off ;-)
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Took me awhilie to realize what Joe and Blue are referring to - but I think I see now the question you're addressing - the angles show in green are identical. They follow the same (in other words, parallel) line of cut, with the saw set at the identical bevel. The dotted line is the center of the hip, also the edge of the model.
(picture got added twice, sorry about that)
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View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 9/23/2009 8:49 am by Huck
Thanks Huck, I'll take care of this.
I don't know if I can make blind men see, but I'm going to try anyway.
Hey if you want to see a blind man look in the mirror, but wait, that's an oxymoron. So if you're blind, ysool.The angle highlighted in green is the saw bevel angle which is the same for both cuts.The cut line of the hip and the cut line of the fascia are different. They might look the same in the graphic, but that's simply because of the angle of the view. If you look at them both in plan, they are different.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Joe,
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I can see just fine, …and really man…. you’re kind’a ugly. Can you do something about that? Maybe some dark shades would help. Lol (Stevie…)
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No disrespect intended, the banter has been all in jest.
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I really love ya man! But don’t try to make me like you, it ain’t go’na happen. =)
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So, Mr Hot Pepper, tell me more about that block.You showed it on the right side jack. Would it work on the left side jack?
Rich,and really man…. you’re kind’a Fugly. Can you do something about that? Nope, not even some dark shades would help. Lol (Stevie…)Fugly, it's all in good fun lol.
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http://www.josephfusco.org
http://www.constructionforumsonline.com
Hey man, framing gave me big round shoulders. That stuff slides right off.
And you could be right about the dark glasses too. Every time I open this thread there’s that photo of you accosting my retina like a welder’s arc. It hurts so bad I have to close my eyes so I won’t really go blind. Please take it away?
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Oh, and I looked up Fugly and just about went blind again. Full page of you ...welder’s arcs out the kazoo. Lol =)
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Make it go away…..
Huck,
This explains it all.
This is the block tucked in the corner where it fits.
Thanks for the pic.
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Now we are getting somewhere!
That illustration is the best graphic displayed so far. I'm going to open both Hucks pic (of his block) and your graphic and I think I'll be able to have an intelligent conversation about this topic now. Remember, we are not all geniuses. Some of us have to work hard at seeing and understanding this stuff.
Jim,<!----><!----><!---->
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I would also recommend printing out and constructing the paper model I posted. <!----><!---->
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“A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”
Yes, thats the miter I've been asking about. Now, if you've answered it, I have to go back to the beginning of this thread to find it.
Huck,
I have been following your thread, and like many I was lost.
After seeing your first video, I finally 'got it'.
My problem was I could not 'see' that the top of your block was a little mini mock up of a portion of the actual roof.
I was thinking that others may get it easier, if you put two of your blocks together to show the 'mini mock up' from one hip rafter to the other, and then pull your first block away to show the common rafter and the angles.
Just my thoughts, keep up the good work.
Rich
I'm waiting for you guys to post videos. I've been slow in picking this up and frankly just don't have the time right now to go through it.
I thought it was great though that last video, did you see what your video is "related" to ;-)
That is cracking me up.http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
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It was related to all boring stuff for me. What was it related to for you?
a bunch of hip hop stuff. http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler
I don't know the difference between visceral and tactile but I know this: some people learn things faster than me. I also know that I can explain things to some people and the same explanation doesn't help others. I liked the idea of having that big chunk of lumber with all the angles and cuts marked on it but I guess it doesn't exist. The video didn't clear anything up for me. It did raise a few more questions but I don't know how to ask them, without causing a stir, so I'll let it die.
" I made and posted a video that specifically addresses your (and Joe's) questions." Ahh...maybe I'm understanding why we are having a hard time with this. I was under the assumption that this was all that was needed based on the pictorial. There were five pics in there that explained things. I didn't realize that I had to watch a video somewhere. I haven't seen the video yet and therefore I'm still hazy about all this. If I wasn't so lazy, I'd dig out my framing square and reconcile all the ratios myself.
I don't see "rake/fascia" miter either.
I'm not trying to bust anyones bells, I just am saying that if there were a few more labels, the thing would make more sense to more people.
I know Huck.<!----><!----><!---->
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It’s more about the geometry than the math… skipping the hoop jumping.<!----><!---->
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I edited post #22.
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The cuts to the remaining portion of the block to model the other side would be: (? correct me if I’m wrong)
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1) The first 90 deg cut is along the same line plumb line of the original cut from the same face.
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2) The second 90 deg cut is off the newly created face and gives us the plane of the adjacent facsia.
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3) The third 90 cut is along the level eave line on the fascia plane and gives us our roof plane for the other pitch.
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Those cut may be tricky to perform with a circular saw.
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If your run fascia square to one side and ‘relative’ to the other (sensibly), then the fascia miter would be solved as if it were a regular hip. There would be some interesting fascia thickness factors involved in getting the fascias in plane and meeting at the corner. I would probably just do a full scale overlay tails detail drawing for solving that.
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