Replies

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 25, 2003 08:48am | #1

   I have that same one with the same problem.

   Sits on the shelf because I couldn't get it fixed.

   Dropped CH like a hot rock and went Ingersoll. Made in the US too,

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 06:18am | #7

   I know how to fix it, but it's a pain: weld a few puddles onto the chipped part of the anvil and then grind it back into shape with a Dremel. The impact mechanism in these tools isn't exactly machined to a ten-thousandth of an inch. Just have to use welding rods soft enough not to shatter under the impacting action.

   You feel like joining a class-action lawsuit??

   I'll bet what they're doing is rebuilding busted warranty returns and reselling them as new. Maybe the rebuilding is going on overseas at a contract plant, so they can claim righteous ignorance if they're ever caught. Wouldn't be the first outfit to try that one if that's what they're up to....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 26, 2003 06:45am | #10

   Use an Easy Strike by MG Industries.

   30 to 50 amps AC/DC or DC-

   Weld (face) it there and it breaks some where else on the anvil. The anvils seem to be brittle because of a superficial tempering. Flash heating perhaps. Might even be a machined steel casting. The anvil core is crystalized. The top few thousands appear to be real metal.

   Preheat before facing. Treat it the same as cast repair.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 08:22am | #16

   I'm not familiar with Easy Strike. Whassat?Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 26, 2003 08:46am | #18

   1/16" dia rod made by MG. All position. Surburb for mild steel.

   Low heat in comparison to a LH, M or N2 rod. Sortta like AURALLOY 800. Won't disturb the rest of structural metal. I think you are up against cast by all indications but please don't quote me. That's just way the metal in the anvil behaves.

   You can use it to weld 28ga. Works best in the 35/40 amp range. At 50 it will penatrate.

   Preheat the rod to some wheres around the 140*f range just before using for a few minuets and it's smoother than 10k series LH on DC-.

   Edited 7/26/2003 1:49:48 AM ET by IMERC

2. 
   rjw | Jul 25, 2003 02:45pm | #2

   I'm curious:  is there a FTPA requirement that parts be made avaialble?

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 06:43am | #9

   If the tool were clearly labeled DISPOSABLE, or NO MAJOR REPAIR PARTS AVAILABLE FOR THIS TOOL on the original packaging so the potential customer could use that information in making his purchase decision, then CH would be in the clear legally, even if they'd still be swimming in slime morally.

   But it wasn't. There was absolutely no indication in or on any of the packaging or manufacturer's documentation that this was the case. I haven't gone looking seriously (which means, I haven't looked the boxes buried under mounds of sawdust in the back of my shop) for the original documentation, but I'm sure it hasn't changed from what's available as a download from the CH website. This includes the 'parts diagram/list' which shows the air-inlet fitting; the trigger mechanism, and the regulator dial as the only parts the tool contains. The main body of the tool is shown closed in their exploded parts diagram; like a 'black box'.

   This is the equivalent of you buying a car, and burning a crank bearing on the driveshaft after the warranty has expired, and then being told that you can buy door locks, a gas cap, or an ignition switch, but that the driveshaft is not a replacement part. Would you have bought that car had you known that before making your purchase?

   As far as the wording of the FTPA, I haven't read it recently but the general intent of the law is to protect consumers from shady practices, and a lot of it is directed at requiring clear labeling so the consumer--assuming he reads the material provided--will know what he is and isn't getting when he forks over the moola. I have no doubt I could find a US lawyer willing to take this one on, for the publicity if for nothing else. (I could also sue them here in Canada under our laws; this would cost them a whole 'nother set of lawyers. If I got lucky, we could find a judge to certify it as a class action suit--because in the US class action damages include payment of your lawyers fees (if you win, of course). (At least that's the way it was thirty years ago when I last needed to know this.)

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

3. 
   nigelUsa | Jul 25, 2003 10:39pm | #3

   I take it this tool is easy to disassemble and if that is the case then replacement parts should be easy to get!! If you had to drill out rivets and funny headed screws then I understand where they are coming from. (but I would still want to fix it) Where did you get it from? sometimes they will exchange it for you, take your newer sale slip with you.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 07:02am | #11

   The whole thing comes apart with four allen screws. I've had this thing apart at least a couple of dozen times; as I stated in the original post to CH on their techAssist website, I use the thing under water when I build docks, and I give it a total tear-down, dry-out and re-oiling after each time I take it swimming.

   I don't think anyone considers allen screws 'tamper-proof' closures, like the Tri Wings MacDo's stupid Disney toys are put together with so you can't fix them but have to choke down another Big Muc so yer kid'll stop hollerin'.... (PS I think General Mfg. makes some tri-wing screwdrivers, if you're interested; check a big industrial catalog.)

   As to the retailer, I got it from Canadian Tire, one of our largest non-chain chains ('all CT stores are individually owned and operated....' so you can't even complain to the head office), which is infamous for not honouring mfg guarantee claims--'send it to the mfg's service center' is their policy.

   I couldn't pass the old gun on the receipt for the new one; the new one costs three and a half times what the old one did. CT's floor personnel are renowned for being even dumber than the 'advisors' at HD (if that's possible judging by what I read here), but their cashiers are intensively trained to tickle Her Majesty on each and every loonie and to require more personal information for each return or exchange than what you probably need to get an unlimited security clearance for access to the Pentagon.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

4. 
   jimmyk | Jul 25, 2003 10:57pm | #4

   Go to a big box and buy a brand new one then throw your old one in the box the same day and take it back and throw a fit because they just sold you a used broken tool! Get your money back because you're so pi55ed you're going somewhere else, and they ship the broke one back and CH eats it.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 07:14am | #12

   Now THAT idea I like....

   It has almost all the elements of a morally elegant solution: It solves my problem; it doesn't hurt anyone who's not guilty; it sticks it to the creeps who are trying to screw me; and it might even work, if I could find a CH dealer who doesn't have an 'exchange only/no refund' policy.

   I am sorely tempted...but the one thing it lacks is that it won't solve the problem for IMERC, for example, who's in the same boat with me and bog knows how many other poor schmucks.Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   IMERC | Jul 26, 2003 07:29am | #14

   Wally World.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 08:37am | #17

   You mean we should all call 1-800-543-6400 and chant  WALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLYWALLY a few times??

   Nooooo--that's mean. (ROFLMAO)

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

   
1. 
   IMERC | Jul 26, 2003 08:48am | #19

   Who calbrates your torque wrench? I'd like them to do mine.

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 07:16pm | #20

   Tail Twisters, Inc.... (LOL)

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   rjw | Jul 27, 2003 12:05am | #23

   Now THAT idea I like....

   It has almost all the elements of a morally elegant solution: It solves my problem; it doesn't hurt anyone who's not guilty; it sticks it to the creeps who are trying to screw me; and it might even work, if I could find a CH dealer who doesn't have an 'exchange only/no refund' policy.

   I am sorely tempted...but the one thing it lacks ....

   is honesty. 

   But go ahead; do it; write a Great Moments in Building Histroy for FHB; get the opinions of your fellow craftsmen.

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

1. 
   rjw | Jul 27, 2003 03:56pm | #30

   FWIW, I received this e-mail today in regard to this thread:

   The following message was sent to you by DINOSAUR17 while viewingyour Member Profile on Breaktime:Mr. Walker:Nothing personal, but I think we can all do without the 'holier than thou' stuff in this thread. The point is to make people aware of which companies do not live by the Golden Rule, so they can avoid doing business with them.If you want to start a fight in the thread by implying that I'm dishonest, you're only showing yourself to be intolerant and insufferable--two qualities that don't rate too highly anywhere.Why don't YOU try to live by the Golden Rule yourself, instead of throwing stones to make yourself feel superior?-----------------

   I'm not implying you're dishonest: my point was simply that Molten's suggestion that the broken tool be put in a new tool box and returned is dishonest.  The ends don't justify the means.

   You said you thought it was a good idea.  Do you think that taking such an action would be honest?  Substituting an older, out of warranty tool for a new tool and returning it?

   Is nobody hurt by the process?  How about the store that you pull the substitution on.  It will cost them employees' time to further that charade, and they might be subject to a restocking/return fee.

   Is it a major no-no?  I don't think so, but, bottom line,  it is dishonest. 

   I'm also not trying to defend the manufacturer.  I get pretty pizzed myself when you have to pitch stuff because repair parts aren't avaialable.

   Of course, perhaps they have a liability concern.  Suppose the owner repairs the major item in the tool incorrectly and is then injured by the tool.  Should the manufacturer be forced to face a potential lawsuit in such a case?

   Am I being holier than thou in pointing out a simple matter of dishonesty?Whew?

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

   Edited 7/27/2003 8:57:55 AM ET by Bob Walker

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 27, 2003 08:51pm | #32

   I don't know about the holier than attitude or whatever, but I remember being pretty offended by the suggestion to rip off a retailer by stuffing an old broken tool into a box for return. The retailer didn't build the bad tool so they shouldn't get stuck with it..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 08:24am | #44

   Piff-

   The original suggestion came from Molten; not from me--and in spite of what BobWalker wrote, I never said it was a good idea: I said I liked the idea, which is not the same thing at all. (I like cigarettes, too; that doesn't make them 'good'.) Go back and read my post.

   I also specifically stated that although it was tempting, it didn't satisfy my personal requirements for engaging in skullduggery & subterfuge, to wit: it would only benefit me, and that's not enough benefit to justify stepping outside the bounds of 'accepted' behaviour. Not in my book, anyway.

   I'm pretty PO'ed at BW for trying to pump himself up at my expense, not because it bothers me personally (I could care less what a holy-roller has to say about anything I do) but because he's hijacking the thread and I think it's important or I wouldn't be spending so much time on it.

   The reason I sent him that e-mail privately was so as not to embarrass him on the board here--a respect for his privacy it turns out he doesn't seem to appreciate--and to avoid the thread being veered off into a pisssing contest. I'm not going to reply to him; I just reported the violation and I'm waiting for SYSOP to come in in the morning and delete the sanctimonious so and so.

   BTW I've already gotten private e-mail from the board describing him in terms that would fry Prospero's censor circuits if they'd been posted here instead of sent to me privately, LOL! So I'm not too worried about 'what my fellow craftsmen think of me'....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

3. 
   rjw | Jul 28, 2003 08:51am | #47

   Lets compare statements

   First you said:

   Now THAT idea I like....

   It has almost all the elements of a morally elegant solution: It solves my problem; it doesn't hurt anyone who's not guilty; it sticks it to the creeps who are trying to screw me; and it might even work, if I could find a CH dealer who doesn't have an 'exchange only/no refund' policy.

   I am sorely tempted...but the one thing it lacks is that it won't solve the problem for IMERC, for example, who's in the same boat with me and bog knows how many other poor schmucks.

   And now you're describing that message as:

   The original suggestion came from Molten; not from me--and in spite of what BobWalker wrote, I never said it was a good idea: I said I liked the idea, which is not the same thing at all. (I like cigarettes, too; that doesn't make them 'good'.) Go back and read my post.

   I also specifically stated that although it was tempting, it didn't satisfy my personal requirements for engaging in skullduggery & subterfuge, to wit: it would only benefit me, and that's not enough benefit to justify stepping outside the bounds of 'accepted' behaviour. Not in my book, anyway.

   If you are going to quote yourself, you might want to actually reread what you originally said.  Or, maybe you did.

   And, in fact, I didn't say that you said it was a good idea.  All I said was that the idea lacked honesty.  I didn't say anything about you or about Molten - just observed that it was a dishonest approach to the problem. 

   I'm pretty PO'ed at BW for trying to pump himself up at my expense,

   At your expense?  The only way that could be the case is if, in fact, you did endorse the idea.

   The reason I sent him that e-mail privately was so as not to embarrass him on the board here--a respect for his privacy it turns out he doesn't seem to appreciate--and to avoid the thread being veered off into a pisssing contest. I'm not going to reply to him; I just reported the violation and I'm waiting for SYSOP to come in in the morning and delete the sanctimonious so and so.

   I guess we'll see. 

4. 
   Piffin | Jul 29, 2003 03:19am | #61

   I understand that you are worked up about the tool company screwing you.

   but let's just get one thing straight here.

   if you'll read what I wrote to Bob, I was responding to an idea, not attacking you in any way. I am fully aware that the idea came from Molten. Since neither one of you are particularly on my s*** list, I refrained from mentioning any names and restricted my self to speaking to the idea itself, which was particularly crude and offensive, if used instead of spoken jokingly about.

   I happen to enjoy your presence here and have no reason to lambast you personally. I save that for those who deserve it. If you want to have a personal problem with Bob Walker, be my guest. If you want to rail on against CH tools, go right ahead, But your correction to me was off base.

   ( this time at least)

   ;).

   Excellence is its own reward!

5. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2003 06:49am | #67

   Piffin,

   I'll apologize if it'll make you feel better, but honestly, and no offense intended, you sound like me when I haven't had my morning coffee. That in itself is unusual--you're usually the spirit of cheerfulness, and if something about this thread has put you in a bad mood, I'm sorry about whatever it is. (If you've just run out of coffee, e-mail me the address of that island of yours and I'll send you a handful of Carte Noire pure Columbian, black-roasted beans, LOL).

   I never intended to get on your case in any way. I thought I was just explaining my comment in reaction to Molten's wise-crack, which is the way I took it--and wise-cracked back in my turn--until BW decided to stand up in his pulpit and distract everybody from the main event.

   What I'd like to make clear is this: I am not worked up about the tool company screwing me, I am worked up about the tool company screwing EVERYBODY by selling throw-out tools which are not marked as such. (I am annoyed that I only found this out after I bought yet another CH tool, but that's a side issue.)

   As far as I personally am concerned, the blinkin' tool only cost me about $40--which is about what I spent for a new tape measure this morning to replace one that really died on Friday afternoon. I replaced the gun the same night the old one blew out (had no choice--I had another 100 linear feet of 6" lags still to put into that roof) with a much heavier-duty gun from CH's 'Extreme Duty' line . I want to repair the old one because it offends my sensibilities to chuck a fixable piece of machinery in the trash, and because I'd like to keep it around for dock-building when I need to use an impact gun underwater (the old gun is easier to strip down and lubricate afterwards). Other than that, I don't give a rat's a$$: the busted gun is currently sitting in my son's playroom and he calls it his space blaster....

   What I DO care about is letting as many people as possible know just what kind of a slimy operation CH is running, in the hope that if I am able to embarrass the clods sufficiently, they'll 'see the error of their ways' and knock off the horsesh!t--which will be to the benefit of ALL OF US--not just me.

   Hope this helped.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

6. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 11:55am | #72

   What I'd like to make clear is this: I am not worked up about the tool company screwing me, I am worked up about the tool company screwing EVERYBODY by selling throw-out tools which are not marked as such

   You've made that assertion several times.  Do you have any basis whatsoever for it?  I can' find any.  I've tried.

   My concern here is that a number of people read these posts without ever participating in the discussion; I don't think anyone is served by unchecked assertions of what the law is or what consumers have a reasonable right to expect.

   So, again, do you have any basis whatsoever for believing that a tool has to be labeled as disposal because the manufacturer won't sell parts for repair to its customers?

   _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

   Edited 7/29/2003 5:27:58 AM ET by Bob Walker

7. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 12:04pm | #73

   I thought I was just explaining my comment in reaction to Molten's wise-crack, which is the way I took it--and wise-cracked back in my turn--until BW decided to stand up in his pulpit and distract everybody from the main event.

   Ahh, the excuse du jure -  first you tried misrepresenting what you said, and got caught.

   Now the old "it was all just a joke," and the rest of us (not just me, I'm not the only one who responded) "just don't get it."

   Edited 7/29/2003 5:29:02 AM ET by Bob Walker

8. 
   Piffin | Jul 30, 2003 02:52pm | #81

   Well, if it's really all that bad and getting you so riled up, I the the phrase, "Class-Action" is one you want to become familiar with.

   I'm out of that class..

   Excellence is its own reward!

9. 
   jimmyk | Jul 28, 2003 08:34pm | #57

   "...pretty offended..."

   Geez...you sure are easily offended, that's like the third time I've read you saying you're offended about something. I hope when I get old everything written on the internet by a bunch of strangers doesn't get me all offended like you and Bob. Why don't you guys lighten up a little and also lay off Dino...it's my stupid idea, not his. I had no intention of ripping off the retailer, I thought if he took it back, the retailer would blame CH for packaging a used tool, and CH would have to pay, not the store. If I'm wrong, I'm very sorry, I didn't want to get the store screwed in this deal. I don't think you have to be "pretty offended" by that mistake, you could have simply said, "molten, that won't work because...blah...blah...blah." Sorry to offend, I hope you didn't lose sleep over my ignorance.

10. 
    Piffin | Jul 29, 2003 03:27am | #62

    "I hope you didn't lose sleep over my ignorance."

    Not a wink.

    Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   GoldenWreckedAngle | Jul 29, 2003 05:50pm | #77

   I bought a well pump from Lowes that had been returned by someone with your mind set. I wasted a good part of my installer's day and came away wishing I had the name and address of the lowlife that replaced the new pump with his old one before he returned it to the store for a full refund. Aside from the complete lack of moral principle involved, you may well be wrong about who's going to end up getting the short end of the stick on your returned merchandise.

   Sometimes even reportedly defective returns make it back onto the shelf. The next guy who returns it may have a legitimate complaint about being sold a used up piece of equipment. Kevin Halliburton

   "I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity."  - I.M. Pei -

5. 
   dieselpig | Jul 26, 2003 05:35am | #5

   This probably won't make you feel better, but I can relate.  I'm having a similar problem with Ingersoll-Rand.  I own two Honda power wheelbarrow compressors made by them and sold through Home-Depot.  Need parts so I found an authorized IR compressor repair place one their wevsite that was "near" me.  I drove 45 minutes and was told that "tech support" would cost me $65...that was just to ask the guy what part I needed!  I say ok and he asks me what compressor I have.  I tell him the model # and he says "oh, we don't deal with stuff that small, we just deal with larger stationary compressors".   Nice I say.  I go to leave and he wants his $65!  I tell him to put an egg in his shoe and beat it...or something like that.

   Back to IR's website, they don't even have my compressor model # listed as one I can order parts for.  I'm thinking....$800 disposable compressors?  Like H E L L. So, I Email IR and let em know how ticked I am and even give 'em my cell phone # telling them I expect a phone call.  No phone call, I get an email telling me to go to my nearest authorized service center and they will sell me the parts I need.  I email 'em back telling them the tale of my visit to their "authorized service center".    In their reply email they don't even address the issue that I STILL DON'T HAVE PARTS FOR MY F-ING COMPRESSOR!  All they want to know is the name of the service center I went to.  I say go to heck (or something a little harsher possibly).   Took the Honda off my busted compressor and put in on my riding mower.  Bought a Rol-Air as a back up till my other IR craps out.

   Sent one more email letting them know I'm all done with their products and I'm gonna talk trash about 'em to everyone I know.  No reply.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 07:22am | #13

   I'm a bit surprised, because IR always used to be 'up there' with Milwaukee as a serious tool-maker in my mind. Nice to be forewarned, especially as I'm about to change pneumatics suppliers.

   I had similar problems with Weedeater/Poulan a few years back; only one 'authorized' service center within a day's drive and WP's 800 # is TABB (Totally Automated Buttonpushing Bullsh!t) which wishes you a nice day and hangs up on you if you try to call them on a rotary phone. I finally found a small local garage to fix my brush-cutter; next one I buy is gonna be a Jonsered or a Stihl.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

6. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 06:08am | #6

   Here's an update--I got this message from CH today when I got back to the office after spending 9 hours up on 'the wall' (I'm still on that 25/12 'Roofing Job From Hell'--it's been raining for damn near two weeks on and off). I haven't written a reply yet. Suggestions...?

   Subject
   I am NOT making a warranty claim for this tool. I just want to buy the parts ...
   Discussion Thread
   Response (CAT Support)	07/25/2003 08:12 AM
   As you can see on the parts list, this part is not listed, meaning it is not a replacement part. If this part were available we would not refrain from selling it to you. Under our manufacturers warranty this product is replaced not repaired.
   Customer DINOSAUR	07/25/2003 01:18 AM
   What the devil do you mean.... I think what they mean is that their tools are as disposable as Bic lighters and ball-points. Maybe I should just send them this pic: A picture is worth a thousand words...?

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

7. 
   Mongo | Jul 26, 2003 06:30am | #8

   Find an 800 number for CH's customer service. If you can't find one, then call any other CH 800 number abd askk to be transferred to customer service.

   Once transferred, ask the rep what their direct number is and tell the rep you need to speak to a supervisor.

   Remain calm, even when the first person tries to help you. If the Level One CS rep really wants to hear your story, tell it. Tell them what you want. Tell them about the truckload of CH equipment you already own.

   If they dont offer you a replacement tool, ask again for a supervisor.

   Tell the supervisor your story and again, tell them what you want. No resolution? Ask for the supervisor's name, location, employee number, and an address where you can write a letter to tell CH that they are on the verge of losing a customer who has spent $$$ on their products over the years.

   Remain calm.

   You stand a helluva better chance at resolving this over the phone instead of by email.

   If the part is truly unavailable, they should offer you a replacement tool. If they don't, siimply walk away. Don't rant on some customer service kid who's trying to make a paycheck...rant on the corporate bottom line by taking your business elsewhere.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 26, 2003 08:20am | #15

   In fact, your method is the only one--aside from a full-blown lawsuit--that stands a chance of actually working, unless I overcome my qualms about using Molten's idea.

   I've known since I was knee-high to a spare tire that bucking your way up the chain of command will usually eventually get you to someone with enough authority to leave the printed policy manual--probably the guy who wrote the policy manual in the first place. (This is how I actually got the parts from Nokia I referred to in an earlier post. They screwed up so badly and so many times that they eventually let me have them free, too; even they were embarrassed.)

   The problem with this is that it's based on upper management's knowledge of human nature: they know that 99% of their customers will get tired of fighting and complaining before they actually do anything like file a complaint with the government agency or file a lawsuit in small claims court or whatever. So they've deliberately created a system that is difficult to bull your way through in order to tire you out so you'll quit and go away. They know that once you get into the 'complaint zone'  you're probably never going to buy their sh!t again no matter what they do, so they don't care much about threats you make to that effect.

   Like, do you think I'll ever buy another Nokia phone, even though they finally gave me the parts? When I calculate the amount of my time, billed at my standard rates, that it took me to get those 'free' parts, the bloody phone cost me something over a thousand bucks to fix. Nokia knows this, and so does CH, and IR, and Weedeater, and every other  'modern' major corporation. They've each got some smart boy with a management sheepskin working for them who's calculated the percentages and has designed a customer 'service' structure the sole purpose of which is to look good from the outside to someone who doesn't need any real help from them.

   I should mention that simultaneously with this complaint to CH, I also filed a warranty claim on the brand new gun I bought to get me through the rest of the job I'm on. Right out of the box, the gun had a minor defect: the socket retaining ring that sits in the groove on the nose of the anvil wasn't sufficiently crimped and it jammed as soon as I put the first socket on the gun. I didn't see this until Saturday morning when I wanted to use the gun to lower the wheels on my lawnmower, and I needed to pull off the 12mm socket I'd been using to attach the 2x4 crib to the roof I was insulating. The snap ring had popped out of the groove and was pinched tight between the anvil and the socket. I needed a large pry bar, a small ice pick, and three hands to get the thing off.

   But this problem will only cost CH about 25 cents, plus postage plus adminstration and overhead, so after only two go-rounds with the same techAssist website, they confirmed that my 'order' for the snap ring had been entered. Besides they are required by the terms of their warranty to fix or replace the gun since it is still covered.

   What manufacturers want today is for you to throw out their product as soon as the warranty period expires and buy a new one. So all their customer 'service' policies are designed to encourage you to do just that.

   What we REALLY need is a law that cracks down hard on our disposable culture. I HATE saying that; what we really need is FEWER laws, but until they get rid of the law that says I can't poke some smiling schlock in the nose for trying to cheat me, we need a few others to try to keep the theives' hands off our wallets....

   One of the benefits of the internet is that it enables anyone to 'get his story out'; and lots of bad publicity is about the only thing that marketing types fear. So we stand a chance of survival--a slim one, but it exists. Keep on posting, BT'ers: When this thread is long and nasty enough, I'm gonna clipboard the whole thing and e-mail it to CH's head of marketing. And to a select list of newspaper consumer-advocate reporters.

    I'm in that 1% the bright boys from Harvard haven't figured out how to control. I don't make idle threats.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

8. 
   ScottB | Jul 26, 2003 09:20pm | #21

   Here's my two cents for the big wigs at CH.  I won't ever buy a CH tool agian unless they fix their Customer service dept.  And I will be purchasing a lot more tools in the future as I am just getting into buying homes and renovating them to resale.

   Wish I had known about this a month ago.  My fiancee got me a CH compressor kit that came with a TL1002 impact wrench, a brad nailer, paint sprayer and hose.  I would of took it back and replaced the whole kit with a PC compressor.  On the other hand I'm not at all convinced PC's customer svc would be any better, but now I know CH's sucks.

   BTW, here in Atlanta Comcast (AT&T) beat out Earthlink for best cust. svc. about a year ago.  Somewhat big news here as Earthlink was based here untill they merged with Mindspring or otherway around.  Anyway Creative Loafing (Local Alt paper)  did a spread about why they won the top spot.  They had "only" something like 50 complaints per 1000 customers while Earthlink had 51 complaints per 1000 customers.  And they both used the wear you out philosphy of cust. disservice.

1. 
   Piffin | Jul 26, 2003 10:06pm | #22

   What suprises me in this thread is that anyone ever expected cH to make good tools or to have good customer service records. In thirty some years of tooling around, I have never seen a CH tool in a professional's lineup. I see them in homeowner's garages, and DIY places and at the Sears store and catalouge, but that's it.

   Look in a serious professional's truck and note the brand names on tools there. Do it multiple times at different locations, but not so as to make them suspect you might be considering stealing them, if you want to stay healthy.

   Note that brand names that you see. The ones that show up time after time are worth considering. The ones you see only occasionally are out of their element or so good that most of us average guys cannot afford them.

   Another way to identify good tools is to pay a visit or call to a tool service center. The guys there can always tell you which tools are routinely in for repair, which are easy to work on, and get parts for, and which are not worth the trouble to fix in the first place. They also have opinions about what companies have the right attitude..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   DanT | Jul 27, 2003 01:23am | #25

   Good point!  I also never thought of CH as a pro quality tool but thought maybe I missed a line of theirs that was considered better than their usual.  Frankly Dino how much time have you spent emailing, talking and writing about this tool?  Paid for a new one yet?  Pitch it, buy a better new one and go on.  I think most power tools today are often thought of as throw aways.  Unless you enjoy repairing tools.  DanT

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 27, 2003 07:26am | #27

   You're right--on a billable basis, this thread is a definite loss-leader. But as it happens I do enjoy repairing tools--and I enjoy even more 'repairing' rotten corporate attitudes when it's possible to do so. I also think it's important.

   CH is just one example. Our society is slowly sliding towards a state wherein the people who pay their money for things will have absolutely no say about what those things will be or how they should be made. Some would say we're already there, but I believe there's always some hope if there's someone to make enough noise that it hurts the crooks in that cash-register they use for a heart.

   The more people scream whenever they see this kind of corporate crap, the better off we will all be in the long run. If you take the attitude that every question must be evaluated in terms of cold cash, you are far down the road to your own enslavement--because you're looking at it from their perspective.

   Remember Howard Beal! The movie Network ought to be required viewing in every high-school civics class in the world.

   Okay now, everyone--open your windows and stick your head out, and repeat after me:

   I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!

    Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 27, 2003 06:51am | #26

   Piff--

   I've got a philosophy on tools I inherited from my old man: DON'T BUY CHEAP TOOLS. Everytime I ignore this, I am eventually sorry; sometimes sooner, sometimes later (depending on usage and luck). But what qualifies as a 'cheap tool' --once you get above the obvious bottom-end crap--is a tricky proposition today.

   I've got a small (¼") B&D plunge router for detail work. (My big router/shaper is a Delta, though.) Now B&D's not exactly a name you'd brag about, but they've got more than one line, and this unit happens to be a good machine. What would happen if I needed parts, I don't know, but I was able to order those silly plastic leg-hinge springs for a B&D Workmate directly from the retailer a few years ago, and it only took a week for them to come in. That's impressive. Especially if you compare it to some of the horror stories that are coming out in this thread. (And don't laugh at the Workmate: I've got two of them and they make better-than-decent multi-purpose machine stands on site. Both of mine are over 10 years old and have seen some rough usage.)

   Back to my router: the label on it says 'Black & Decker PLUS', B&D's top line a while ago.  But it was made by Elu in Switzerland, I've been told, and the only thing B&D did was distribute it under their own brand name. Within a year or so of the time that brand came out it disappeared, to be replaced by the 'Professional' line; somewhat earlier or later (I don't remember too clearly) there was also a line called B&D KODIAK. I don't think B&D's own factories made any of these tools. Finally, B&D bought/merged divisions with Big Yellow, and we all know the rest, or think we do....

   This all reflects the modern marketing trend called 'Branding'. Who actually manufacturers the product is irrelevant under this philosophy; what's important is who owns and controls the Brand Name. If 'Piffin Construction' was a nationally-known name, and you controlled it's use by virtue of owning the trademark, you could license that name to anybody who wanted to use the brand-name recognition factor to help get themselves work. And theoretically sit back and rake in the money while others got their hands dirty in order to pay you for the privilege. Nice deal.

   I've got a lot of respect for quality; and I'm always willing to pay for it when I can scrape up the pennies to do so. But it's virtually impossible without spending your whole life doing research to know who makes what and in which factory by which sub-sub-sub contractor and what part is made and which assembly is jobbed.... Delta's a good name; but a sales rep who distributes both told me that their tools are now made in the same factory in China as a crappy line called King Canada. I don't have proof he wasn't full of it, but some of King Canada's designs are virtually identical to Delta units from 40 years ago.

   We in the construction industry are not guilt-free on this either: How much of the final 'product' does a GC actually produce using regular employees that are trained by him and respond to his criteria of quality? And how much is done by whatever sub comes in with the best bid and agrees to meet the schedule...?

   As far as expecting CH to be a quality tool from the start, I didn't know anything about them when I bought my first CH tool--a twin-tank hotdog compressor. It was produced with sharp graphics and a snappy paint job, and labelled PROFESSIONAL in large silver letters. Very macho, very DeWalt-ish, if you know what I mean. It looked impressive; it sold for what I thought at the time was a pretty healthy price; and it was on the floor at a big-box retail outlet where I could see it. And this was BEFORE every Tom, Dick, and 'Norm' just had to have a compressor and a nail gun sitting in the ol' basement workshop to impress his buddies. At that time, only pro's used pneumatic nailers--I actually asked my BIL when he sold me his spare Senco framing gun if I needed a license to use it.

   That damned compressor has run lo these last ump-teen years with so close to no maintenance that it's ridiculous. And I do run the snot out of it from time to time: For instance, a hotdog doesn't really have the tank capacity to run lag bolts into red pine roof decking for 8 hours a day, so the motor just keeps on running. That sort of thing is hard on the unit, but the only things that've ever busted on it are the drain cocks, and thank bog I didn't have to go to CH to get them or I'd have had to throw the bloody thing out and buy a new compressor. This machine was my introduction to the CH brand name, and it's reliability is what convinced me to buy more of their tools. Now here I am telling everyone how great the machine runs while I'm trashing their customer service department. And there's the rub: No matter how good it is, when it finally does bust for real, I'll be at the mercy of CH.

   The philosophy of the disposable tool is unacceptable to me. Hell, I've been known to repair a DISH-MOP when the little wire that holds the yarn to the wooden stick rusted out and let go. (I do draw the line at toilet brushes, however, LOL.)

   Yeah, I'd like to have CP instead of CH and Milwaukee instead of DeWalt--at least I think I'd like to. I'm not so sure that the price difference is paying for more than the name plate in some cases. Notice that Milwaukee now sells their tools in plastic cases instead of metal, something DeWalt went to a few years before they did. Is there as much difference in quality as the price diffence indicates? I dunno.

    But the real question still remains--when it finally busts (all machines do eventually, unless you just hang 'em on the wall and admire 'em), what kind of service will the 'manufacturer'/brand-name owner provide?

    Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 27, 2003 07:37am | #28

   My only experience with PC's customer service was through a retailer; it took a couple of months to get a new latch for the cheap plastic tool case my finish nailer came in. But I did get it; and they covered it under warranty.

   And the tool itself is all-metal and nicely designed and works well. Ditto for my PC jigsaw. Bulletproof.

   I read a while ago that PC wanted to stop production on a particular tool (I don't remember which one) because it was an unprofitable, low-volume seller. But the public outcry convinced the corp. big-wigs to go back on their decision and keep it in production. That's encouraging. Anybody remember any more details on that one?

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   mike4244 | Jul 28, 2003 07:33pm | #55

   The tool you are referring to is the hand held planer. This tool is used by carpenters to fit doors to the opening. It has a spiral cutter and is an industrial tool. Porter Cable did stop making it because of low profitability and high costs. Carpenters raised hell and I believe they are making the planer again.

   mike

1. 
   CAGIV | Jul 29, 2003 08:42am | #71

   Mike,

     You got it right

   http://www.portercable.com/index.asp?e=547&p=2841

   that's the one, It's got to be hard to market the tool when you can pic up a POS at the local box for a fourth of the cost.  But the few smaller units I've used can't hold a candle to this one on there best dayNever be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.

9. 
   fredsmart48 | Jul 27, 2003 01:07am | #24

   Campbell Hausfeld 30 years ago use to be tool for the home owner with a 100 psi compressor and use to change tires on the car once or twice a year, that kind of use. Has CH improved their tools to jump out of home owner market.

   Most professional mechanics back then would buy Chicago Pneumatic (CP) It was about 4 times the quality of CH. Today I don’t know what brand of air wrenchs I would buy. To find out I would stop ask in a of the automotive shop that don’t sell tool out of the front door.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 27, 2003 07:51am | #29

   Snap On. When I was a mechanic thirty years ago, I always lusted after the Snap On air tools the older guys had managed to save up for. But under the circumstances my tools are used today, it might be overkill. An auto mechanic uses an impact gun all day every day, but he's the only one who touches it. On my sites, an impact gun is used only for driving lags or socking down stove bolts in certain special framing situations. This doesn't happen on a daily basis. In addition, any member of the crew might be using it, and it won't get the care an auto mechanic will give his own personal tools. I'd also hate to see a $500 Snap On tool dropped off a roof to hit the concrete 35 feet below. Even Snap On won't guarantee that, and I can't blame them.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

10. 
    deadmanmike | Jul 27, 2003 05:40pm | #31

    Dinosaur, you get what you pay for. CH air tools are light duty homeowner disposables. Chicago Pneumatic is even worse, and Crapsmen not much better. You can get away with the cheaper stuff in non critical roles, but an impact gun gives itself a ton of abuse above and beyond the owner inflicted type. CH obviously doesn't repair those, they exchange them. Most likely the reason they won't send you the part is due to manufacturing variances over the life of that tool's production(different suppliers alter design, etc.), and the new anvil may not match up to the rest of the gun. Swapping the gun is easier then matching parts.

    I know you don't want to hear this, but you've just learned a hard lesson. Buy a good one once, or get used to buying new cheap ones. You can't expect a Nissan pickup to perform like a Super Duty, or last like one.

    What is your time and aggravation worth? What do you expect for $30????

    Stop complaining and go buy another one.

    Mike

1. 
   fredsmart48 | Jul 27, 2003 10:51pm | #33

   Just for my curiosity when did Chicago Pneumatic start producing junk.  

   30 years ago I worked for a farm implement shop as a mechanic.  The dealer had three set up crews that did nothing but put together equipment all year long. They used  CP air tools. The shop supply 3  CP 1/2 impact drives.  Those wrench were always in use. They were never quiet.  I never recalled the boss in the 7 years that I work there chewing out the crews for braking a air wrench but he was always on them for cutting the air line or cutting extension cords and braking the drills.  I bought a CP about 28 years ago and it is still going strong, all though it has not got much use in the last 10 years.  Back then as I recall all most every one had CP air tools -  tire shop, car shop, farm implement shops, gas station.

1. 
   nigelUsa | Jul 28, 2003 02:48am | #34

   Can you send the tool back to CH and ask them to fit it? Buy the craftsman and get the longest exchange warranty you can with it.(main Reason)

    As a side note . My minolta printer won't work with windowsXP. Called Minolta. all I got asked for was name address and Credit card number and to keep an eye out in about 2 days as an new upto date printer is on its way, please return the old unit. The old printer was 2 years old. NO CHARGE. THATS SERVICE.

1. 
   rjw | Jul 28, 2003 03:39am | #35

   The old printer was 2 years old. NO CHARGE. THATS SERVICE.

   They updated an antique like that for free?  2 Years old?  Isn't that one of those kerosene driven printers? {G,D&R}_______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

2. 
   rez | Jul 28, 2003 03:42am | #36

   Buddy bought a new larger monitor for his puter. Ordered it from dell, it arrives and for some reason he's not happy with the brightness or something. I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

   So he calls them and tells them his opinion. Dell says no problem they'll send him a new one and he can send back the other in the box the new one comes in at their cost. It's there at his door in 2 days.

   I think that's pretty good service too.

    

    

1. 
   CAGIV | Jul 28, 2003 03:51am | #37

   Same with gateway, kind of, well I actually dropped my monitor box walking up the stairs.

   I brought it back to the gateway store and told them the story of it taking an un-expected trip down the stairs.  Expected to have to pay for a new one, they exchanged it at no cost and said no problem.

   Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.

2. 
   nigelUsa | Jul 29, 2003 04:48am | #66

   Interesting what you say about dell. My buddy ordered a NEW pc system. It arrived damaged. Dell sent another unit. This second unit turned out to be a total dud. And it turned out to be a refurb,  NOT new as paid for. My buddy was major upset to say the least. Took a while for dell to take it back. so beware!!

2. 
   IMERC | Jul 28, 2003 07:01am | #39

   Just for my curiosity when did Chicago Pneumatic start producing junk.

   When they went ove seas. 

3. 
   deadmanmike | Jul 28, 2003 11:09pm | #58

   I've been using air tools as a pro mechanic for 15yrs, and 5yrs as an amateur before that. I've been through just about every brand of hand or air tools made. I started out with CP, crapsmen, SK, etc.

   Every one has bit the dust early after everyday use, and none ever performed up to the level of IR or Snap-on. Maybe earlier in their history they were better, but now they're light duty only.

   Mike

1. 
   edwardh1 | Jul 30, 2003 03:13pm | #82

   we have a small CH air comp that we use only once or twice a year.

   It came with some funky rubber foot piece on it that would not stay on. i wrote and e mailed the co and I think I called once. No response.

   As long as Sears and Waldo Mart keep buying them CH does not care, as YOU are not their customer, Sears and Waldo mart are

2. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 07:27am | #40

   Mike--

   See my reply to Piffin on tool quality; I think that answers part of your argument.

   I agree with you on one level--if I were to do a cost-benefit (benefit to ME) analysis on this whole shebang, it's obvious I'd come out a financial loser. But that's not the whole point, nor even the main one.

   The very concept of a disposable tool shouldn't even exist. Hell, the concept of a disposable cigarette lighter or ball-point pen shouldn't exist, but it not only exists, we lazy, self-centered slobs have made that sort of thing so highly profitable over the last twenty/thirty years or so that it's gonna take major societal screaming to put this particular evil genie back into its bottle.

   In many parts of the world, there is no such thing as disposable packaging for foodstuffs: the homemaker arrives at the food market with bags, baskets, bottles, or whatever is necessary to carry home the foodstuffs he/she plans to buy that day. In North America (Canada is better than the States in this regard, but not a whole lot, I'm sorry to say) we have gotten to the point where consumer items costing well over a thousand dollars are considered disposable and repair parts are simply not available or are sold in 'modular engineering assemblies' specifically to discourage people from repairing the old instead of buying a new. Look at your computer, for example. My first computer was a Compaq laptop that originally retailed for close to three grand. When it was less than three years old, one of my customers GAVE it to me for an $80 discount off her bill, because the CD drive was non functional. The idea of repairing it never even passed through her mind.

   So where does it stop? At a $3000 computer? or at a $50,000 pickup truck? Or, should we be asking where does it START? With a 1.5-cent brown paper bag, or with a $45 impact wrench?

   This planet is made up of a certain amount of stuff, and when we've transformed it all into disposable junk and then thrown it out, we are gonna be over our nostrils in thrown out junk and left with no more raw materials. Is that what we want?

   Everytime a company like CH gets away with pulling this crap on somebody, that event validates this obscene business philosophy one more time, and the scum-sucking MBA's who think they run the world pat themselves on the back and have another Perrier.

   From a disposable bottle, of course....Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   Luka | Jul 28, 2003 07:46am | #42

   Before the last quarter of this century, landfills will be valuable resources.

   Mined for materials for more products. (Which will probably be engineered to last longer for exactly the reasons you give.

   As for the whole idea of returned a used tool in a new package... Dishonest.

   In a nutshell, stealing.

   As for any justification... because you were "ripped off first", etc...

   Bullsh*t.

   You are responsible for your own actions. If you intentionaly decieve, you are decietful. If you intentionaly steal, you are a thief. Period. Feeling that you were ripped off first does not mitigate in even the slightest way, your responsibility for your own actions.

   This is not an attack. And I do not intend to point the finger at you. (You just happen to be the one this response if addressed to. LOL) I am simply cutting through the situational ethics.

   A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time

1. 
   Luka | Jul 28, 2003 08:02am | #43

   P.S.

   Dino,

   I am behind you all the way on this. Give it to them ! (Just don't compromise your own ethics to do so.)

   A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 08:32am | #46

   Luka--I agree with everything you said, and see my reply to Piffin.

    http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=33228.45

   I'm a Rational Anarchist--which means I do what I think is right (once I've figured out what that is!), but I recognize that the responsibility for the consequences is mine and mine alone. No truly honest person can behave any differently, I believe.

   Now I'm going to let this aspect drop; I'm trying to prevent the thread from being hijacked, so I'd better take some responsibility for that myself LOL!

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   Luka | Jul 28, 2003 08:55am | #48

   I thought you would.

   : )

   I think that anarchist side sometimes comes across as a chip on your shoulder.

   But I was pretty sure I recognized a responsible sort under there. LOL

   Disposable butanes are very convenient. But what happens to a few billions of them in a few short years ???

   I totaly agree that this is a sign of trouble in our future.

   I do see landfills being mined for plastics, metal, heavy metals, etc, in the future. I also see engineering eventualy being chained down to making the best use of the limited resources there will be.

   Meantime, we have to live with the huge pollution and waste until it starts to cost a large enough amount of human lives that the powers that be are forced to take notice and do something about it.

   I don't think that we will be rid of pollution, for instance, until it costs more to create the pollution, than to control it. That cost is not going to happen until enough people are obviously being killed by the pollution that even the big busuness interests cannot afford to keep it under wraps.

   Politics is in the back pocket of big business. The politicians are not going to pass legislation that costs big business money, until big business no longer has enough money to cover up the cost to society and humanity of their pollution. That is not going to happen because a few politicians grow some semblance of morals. It will happen when the death toll is too great for all the mugwhumps on their couches to miss.

   (OK, so I got off on a tangent about the pollution end of things. LOL Same basic principle applies.)

   Common sense should be a legal requirement for all manufacturers. Common sense, well ahead of the bottom line...

   A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time

3. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 09:14am | #49

   You're not on a tangent--you're right on target. The end result of CH refusing to sell me a new anvil for an otherwise good tool is exactly what you described.

   If we let them get away with it....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

4. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 09:32am | #50

   Here's an update:

   I sent the following reply to CH earlier tonight, based on a lot of what's been said in this thread. We'll see tomorrow if they respond, and how.

   ----- Original Message -----

   From: CHPower Customer Service

   To: dinosaur

   Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 8:12 AM

   Subject: I am NOT making a warranty claim for this tool. I just want to buy the parts ... [Incident: 000-000-000]

   Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.If this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction, you may reopen it within the next 180 days.Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.You may also update this question by replying to this message. Because your reply will be automatically processed, you MUST enter your reply in the space below. Text entered into any other part of this message will be discarded.

    Subject

   I am NOT making a warranty claim for this tool. I just want to buy the parts ...

    

    Discussion Thread

    Response (CAT Support)

   07/25/2003 08:12 AM

   As you can see on the parts list, this part is not listed, meaning it is not a replacement part. If this part were available we would not refrain from selling it to you. Under our manufacturers warranty this product is replaced not repaired.

   [===> Please enter your reply below this line <===]That is not an acceptable answer. If you really didn't have the parts available for your own use, you'd have to throw out all TL1002's returned to you on warranty instead of rebuilding them to supply future warranty claims, and I don't believe even you people are that stupid.

   I repeat: THIS ITEM WAS NOT CLEARLY MARKED 'DISPOSABLE--MAJOR REPAIR PARTS NOT AVAILABLE' WHEN IT WAS SOLD TO ME. I therefore have a legally enforceable right to expect that you will support the product with after-warranty parts at a reasonable cost. If you don't find a way to ship me the part I need, you'd better figure out how to ship me a re-built TL1002, and bill me for what the anvil alone would cost if you had a part number for it (and don't try to tell me your accounting or engineering departments don't have that information somewhere, I won't believe you). If you include a return shipping label, I will send you back my old gun on receipt of the re-built one. (If you don't, I'll keep if for parts.)

    

   If you yourself do not have the authority to solve this problem, I want your name, employee number, and a direct-contact e-mail address, as well as the name and e-mail address of your immediate supervisor.

    

   I warn you: the longer you try to 'wear me out' with non-responsive answers, the longer CH's rotten product support will be exposed to public scrutiny on every tool-buyer's on-line forum I can find. Keep it up long enough and you won't have a customer left who knows how to read.

    

    

   [===> Please enter your reply above this line <===]

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

5. 
   ian | Jul 28, 2003 11:53am | #51

   I feel your pain and understand your frustration.  The following may help you better understand the situation. 

   I've recently discovered that for all major tools there are TWO spare parts lists:  one lists what are known as "user servicable parts" - this is what the kid at customer support sent you.  The other list is intended for "service technichians" and lists all the parts of the tool, with the appropriate catalogue number and there is usually an accompanying price list as well.  From the company's perspective if the repair requires the tool to be taken apart they cannot afford (ie liability) for YOU to put it back together the wrong way, so generally "end users" cannot get the spare part.  Like with the Nokia, if you escallate far enought up the food chain you can usually find a manager who will recognise that you know what you're talking about and hence will trust you with the repair.  The core problem (IMO) is that the big boxes, and cheap chinese imports, have sent all the small sales/repair shops out of business.  Your options really come down to: get a new one made by someone other than CH, ship the TL1002 back to CH for repair or SPEAK and WRITE (snail mail) to the company for assistance.  I personally find that Email is too informal, too easy (to ignore) to be much use.

   BTW It's the same with cars, ever lookefd at the cost of building one from spare parts.

   Ian

6. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2003 07:18am | #68

   Funnily enough, Nokia said exactly what you suggested: that it would take a 'Level IV service center'  (and $150 in labour charges) to replace the parts I wanted to buy (happened to be the outer case for the phone--I'd cracked it by keeping it in my back pocket). I laughed at that and told them my then-3-year-old son could do it given a mini-Torx #5 screwdriver and about 10 minutes to unscrew/rescrew the seven screws in question (it's no more complicated than changing the battery in his little toy train, which he'd been doing since Christmas). The veep of Customer Service finally allowed as how my local dealer could do the repair in his 'Level I' service center (the closet off the showroom next to the crapper) and said she'd call to alert him the parts were coming and tell him to call me when they came in so I could bring in the phone.

   When I hadn't gotten the call in another two months, I stopped by one day to ask them in person if the stuff had arrived. They looked confused, then searched the 'stock room' (a shelf in the 'service center') and found a FedEx package that had been sitting there for five weeks by the date stamp on the label. At that point, I hauled out the phone and told them 'head office' had said they had to do the repair because I wasn't competent.

   The manager looked embarrassed and finally said he didn't have the proper tools to do it. I went out to the truck, got my torx#5 and offered to loan it to him. He looked embarrassed again, and finally just gave me the box and said to take it and keep my mouth shut.

   When I got home, I opened the box.

   They'd sent the wrong parts.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

7. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2003 07:36am | #69

   Oops, got so wrapped up in telling a good tale I forgot to respond to your point about liability for customer-performed repairs.

   My old man finished his 45-year career as a mechanical engineer as the company expert witness in product liability cases, so I got a pretty good inside slant on how this works. Basically, if the owner of a machine wants to lay the fault on the manufacturer, the burden of proof will be on him, and he will be required to show that the installation of the parts in question was done correctly by competent personnel--there is no requirement that I'm aware of that said personnel be approved in advance by the manufacturer--and that the problem arose because of the quality of the parts or the design of the machine.

   If I buy parts from CH, they'll have a record of that sale; and they won't have a record of service charges, thus showing that I did the work or had it done elsewhere. It would then be up to me to prove it was done correctly if I wanted to sue them because the thing flew apart in my hand and gave me a shiner.

   Besides, if this was their only reason for not wanting to sell parts, they could get around it by having parts-only customers sign a release when they bought the parts.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

8. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 12:13pm | #74

   My old man finished his 45-year career as a mechanical engineer as the company expert witness in product liability cases, so I got a pretty good inside slant on how this works.

   Glad to hear that experience gives you such a deep knowledge "how this works."

   Of course, expert witnesses don't even get involved until well into the process of an action brought against a company.

   Defending even losing actions costs a lot of money.  Companies often choose a course of action because they don't want to incur all of the costs incurred in defending even "baseless" actions; nor do they want too many product liability suits to be filed against them because that could affect their product liability costs or even availability.

   So, you might be right on the law of product liability (and that law varies significantly from state to state, and cannot possibly be accurately described in one sentence, no matter what the experience of he who utters it) but there are other parts of the picture which you haven't taken into consideration.

   BTW, you're on a one man crusade against that company, so you obviously don't have any objection to one man crusades.

   Edited 7/29/2003 5:18:41 AM ET by Bob Walker

9. 
   rjw | Jul 28, 2003 01:30pm | #52

   Dinsaur - not trying to bust your chops here, but you seem to have a fixed idea that you have some sort of rights under the federal Fair Trade and Practices Act (I'm assuming US since the manufacturer is in the US.)

   I've skimmed the regs, and can't find anything which provides the right to repair parts or, in the alternative, requires the packaging to be labeled "disposable."

   I don't claim to have done an exhaustive search, but given my research experience, I think I would have found such a rule if it had existed.

   I mention this because there might be some readers who think such a right exists because you think it should.

   I'd still be interested to know if you have any actual knowledge of such a legal requirement.

   (BTW, it is much harder getting class action certification these days; but mentioning it can sometimes get a large company's attention .)

   BTW, the FTC site with the FTPA reghs is at http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_99/16cfrv1_99.html

    

   Edited 7/28/2003 6:35:19 AM ET by Bob Walker

10. 
    Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2003 02:01am | #60

    Further update-- I just checked the mail before supper; Cat Support, who/whatever he/she/it is, is kicking this upstairs or initiating delaying tactics:

     Subject

    I am NOT making a warranty claim for this tool. I just want to buy the parts ...

     

     Discussion Thread

     Customer (Dinosaur)

    07/27/2003 11:46 PM

    That is not an acceptable answer. If you really didn't have the parts available for your own use, you'd have to throw out all TL1002's returned to you.... Response (CAT Support)                                                   07/28/2003 03:04 PM

    Your information has been forwarded to the service who will get back to you as soon as possible.

     

    Back later; this is hungry work....

    Dinosaur

    'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   rjw | Jul 28, 2003 01:55pm | #53

   Before the last quarter of this century, landfills will be valuable resources.

   Some are already mining for methjane gas!_______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

1. 
   Luka | Jul 28, 2003 08:29pm | #56

   Yup.

   I've seen some in this state that were drilled, then pipes stuck in, and simply lit. Methane flames going constantly.

   Why couldn't they have piped that to a storage facility for a nearby community ???

   It was waste in the first place. Now they are wasting a valuable by-product.

   A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time

2. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 01:45am | #59

   I've seen some in this state that were drilled, then pipes stuck in, and simply lit. Methane flames going constantly.

   Why couldn't they have piped that to a storage facility for a nearby community ???

   In some cases I think the sulpher or other chemical content might make it unprofitable to try to store and use._______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

11. 
    pm22 | Jul 28, 2003 06:32am | #38

    Mr. Dinosaur,

    I picked this up from Jerry Pournelle's forum and hope nobody minds:

    Why can't American companies think for the long term? Around what time did this extreme short term mindset >come into dominance in corporate America?

    Back when I worked for Earthlink, I was astonished to learn that the then Director of Tech Support had an MBA. I asked him one day why so many MBA's only looked at the short-term bottom line, and didn't care about long-term consequences of their acts.

    He told me that what most MBA's were doing was trying to give the short-term bottom-line a big boost, then use that as "proof" of how good they were for the company in their constant search for a new job at a higher salary. Their idea is to jump ship before the long-term damage becomes apparent, so they don't care, as they're not the ones to deal with it.

    IHOP, the International House of Pancakes, a chain of coffee shops, is an excellent example of this. For many years, they featured a "bottomless coffee pot;" a carafe of coffee on the table, allowing you to refill your cups as often as you wish. If you emptied it, they replaced it at no charge. Then, the MBA's came in. They decided that this was wasteful and ended the practice. Yes, having servers giving refills saved money, but customers hated it and stayed away in droves. The chain almost went bankrupt, even after they'd gone back to having carafes on the table because it took years to recover their customer base. Did the MBA's care? Of course not, because they'd gone on to other jobs at other companies.

    As long as MBA's do this, and the people doing the hiring only look at short-term changes, the trend will continue and businesses will go down the drain.

    Joe Zeff

    Either this is a deliberate strategy on the part of Campbell Hausfeld or else it is plain stupidity [which is common in corporate cultures. I, for one, will not buy any Campbell Hausfeld  compressors and thanks for alerting me.

    I have briefly looked at their site and they are located in Ohio. They didn't list any corporate information such as who their leader is. What I would do is contact them and request specifically what the e=mail addread of their head honcho is and send him a copy of this thread or print it out and snail mail it to his address.  Usually sending your conmplainrt to the President gets results. It becomes a matter of not this customer wants something done to correct this situation but one of the President wants something done to correct this situation. And it's only fair to let the President of Campbell Hausfeld  know that something is wrong in the depths of his company.

    ~Peter

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 28, 2003 07:45am | #41

   Thanks a lot for bringing in that post from the Pournelle forum. Do you have a link to it? I know of JP from the Sci-Fi  heydays, and it would be interesting to see what he's up to now.

   What the poster described is the MBA Mating Dance, as subliminally taught in major North American universities and refined by executive head-huntering firms and in OJT. A corollary is the Corporate Mating Dance, where a corporation about to go buns up (because so many hot-shot MBA's have short-sheeted it for too long) courts a merger with another corporation at a less-extreme stage of the same disease on the theory that, as long as you keep increasing the gross, you can continue to lose money indefinitely (BTW, that actually works--but the only people to profit from that scenario are the company execs, not the line employees nor the stockholders, and certainly not the customers).

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   pm22 | Jul 29, 2003 03:32am | #63

   The link to Jerry Pournelle's site is:

   http://jerrypournelle.com/

   ~Peter

2. 
   rjw | Jul 28, 2003 08:25am | #45

   He told me that what most MBA's were doing was trying to give the short-term bottom-line a big boost, then use that as "proof" of how good they were for the company in their constant search for a new job at a higher salary. Their idea is to jump ship before the long-term damage becomes apparent, so they don't care, as they're not the ones to deal with it.

   The only problem with that explanation is that it fails to explain why the problem has been around a lot longer than the recent phenomenon of people jumping ship regularly.

   It is an amusing illustration, perhaps, of how so many people are subconsciously sure that the world didn't exist until they came along.

   The problem of bushiness' short time shortsightedness has ben around and been recognized for far longer than the last 15-20 years, and dates back to the days of old when people stayed at their jobs, and even, gasp, to days before having an MBA was common.

   Although I'm sure there is an element of this personal gain issue (hardly restricted to MBA's I suspect, for some odd reason) the problem is also considered primarily a result of the e focus of Wall street on short term goals; revenues and profits; typically really focused on at a 1/4ly basis.

   Also note the strong element of anti-intellectualism.  How we Americans love to hate education beyond the mind-numbing norm

   BTW, any proof for the IHOP story?  I couldn't find anything like that on the Web (although I didn't spend a lot of time on it.)

    _______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

1. 
   pm22 | Jul 29, 2003 03:49am | #64

   I have no idea about the IHOP story. I just cut and pasted the entire message - or most of it - by the fella. It's perhaps not even pertinent.

   I've heard that Amazon.com loses money with every sale or every day or something like that. But I guess its' stock goes up. Where does the cash come from?

   When a company announces a large percentage of layoffs, it's stock goes up. Most people would think layoffs would be a sign that the company is in deep doo doo. Stockholders and buyers evidently don't. Oh well.

   On the other hand, if some doofus at a brokerage house predicts that some company should announce a quarterly dividend of 18¢ a share and the actual amout is only 16¢ a share, the stock price drops $4 a share. "Darn, I just lost a theoretical 2¢ so I better sell now at a $4 loss." Is it possible that the doofus could have guessed wrong?

   ~PeterView Image

1. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 04:41am | #65

   When a company announces a large percentage of layoffs, it's stock goes up. Most people would think layoffs would be a sign that the company is in deep doo doo. Stockholders and buyers evidently don't. Oh well.

   Amazing, isn't it!.  Mid eighties, there was a big round of layoffs which resulted in stock price rises.  The whole thing was cheerlead by some financial analyst "wizard."

   The idea was not that the company was in the deep  stuff, but that it was getting lean, mean and efficient.  Hence the stock performance.

   After about 5(?) years, the guy who lead the charge did a financial analysis of the companies which had joined in the blood letting, and found that their true economic vitality (my words - I forget how he expressed it) hadn't changed one bit.  But heck, if you were a C[dodah]O (Chief something or other officer) you couldn't get a decent round of golf with your fellow C[doodoo]O's unless you had canned a bunch of folks.

   On the other hand, if some doofus at a brokerage house predicts that some company should announce a quarterly dividend of 18¢ a share and the actual amount is only 16¢ a share, the stock price drops $4 a share. "Darn, I just lost a theoretical 2¢ so I better sell now at a $4 loss." Is it possible that the doofus could have guessed wrong?

   I think the theory is that the doofus is watching the monthly financials and the market the company is in and making a highly sophisticated analysis, so that if performance is "lower than expected" it indicates the company is failing to perform in some significant way (or the markets it's in aren't supporting its needed activity.)

   The impression I get is that the co's being watched, ah, are careful with how they announce their numbers, so that the financial analysts' figures include a rapid departure from reality.

   There truly is some madness apparently mixed at random with some achingly boring financial fundamentals!

   [Can you believe Prospero doesn’t even know what a doofus is? I feel safer than ever from Hal.]_______________________

   10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.

   11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.

   1 Corinthians 3:10-11

12. 
    ETG | Jul 28, 2003 05:27pm | #54

    Unfortunately you are stuck with a dud CH machine.  Up till the 80's, tool manufacturers produced 2 to 3 levels of product - Industrial, Tradesman and Homeowner.  Today those lines are blurred with a mix of product.  CH never got above the Homeowner level and you now see why.

    When buying a tool today, you have to pick and choose - wormdrive from Skil, recip saw from Milwaukee, etc.  And that doesn't always guarantee the best product.  And many major lines are dropping parts support on a number of items - Dewalt has been around about 10 years (the reconstituted brand owned by B&D) and they have already eliminated parts for items older than 5 years.  Even PC has dropped support for items no longer made that are over 10 years old!  Brands like Souix (now owned by Snap-On) still produce the extra heavy duty product but you won't find it in the big boxes because the industrial user doesn't frequent those stores for tools - they buy from suppliers who cater to the industrial user's needs.

    And the off-shore, third world manufacture of tools will only increase.  Our whole manufacturing base has erroded - today, WalMart and Target have passed the manufacturing giants like Ford and US Steel in sales.  There are many reasons for this but one glaring one is lack of trained workers.  I live in the shadow of B&D and a plant that was the largest power tool manufactuing facility in the world in the 80's.  They started having difficulties in the late 70's finding cnc machinists - those were the days when gear trains were milled (today, many are  pressed using powder metallurgy - something a high school drop out can master).  Pick any high school and walk through it - see any cnc training?  Better yet, pick an average high school, go to a senior class and offer $5 for the first person who can tell you exaclty where to cut a 2x in half that measures 45-7/16ths.  I do it all the time - amazing the number of students who can't answer correctly.  And you expect a low end CH tool to last and their folks to give good customer service?  Too bad you didn't get it from WalMart - at least they have some understanding of customer service even though their "value added" activity is minimal.

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 29, 2003 08:07am | #70

   Let's see--half of forty is twenty; half of five is two and a half; half of 7/16s is 7/32nds, sooo....that's twenty-two and sixteen thirty-seconds plus seven thirty-seconds, minus half the kerf of 1/8th which is 1/16th, equals 22-11/16. Whew! Good thing I wasn't using a thin-kerf blade that only measures 3/32 thick.... (Wait a minute, I'm doing this in public; I'd better check that on my slide rule....)

   You really want me to cut a 2x that fine...? ROFLOL!

   I couldn't agree with you more: 'education' today is pathetic. If you want to find out how poorly really basic skills are learned, next time you buy something, for, say, $10.47 or some other odd number, give the cashier a twenty, then wait till she's hit the 'total' button on her keyboard and the change amount shows up on the little screen. Then say, 'Wait a minute: I've got the 22 cents' and give it to her. Watch her face.

   If she's under 40 years old, the likelihood is great that she'll get all confused, turn red with embarrassment, and not be able to figure out how much she now owes you. Don't be mean, though--as soon as you've seen what you need to, get her off the hook--give her another quarter....

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   rjw | Jul 29, 2003 12:15pm | #75

   I couldn't agree with you more: 'education' today is pathetic. If you want to find out how poorly really basic skills are learned, next time you buy something, for, say, $10.47 or some other odd number, give the cashier a twenty, then wait till she's hit the 'total' button on her keyboard and the change amount shows up on the little screen. Then say, 'Wait a minute: I've got the 22 cents' and give it to her. Watch her face.

   If she's under 40 years old, the likelihood is great that she'll get all confused, turn red with embarrassment, and not be able to figure out how much she now owes you. Don't be mean, though--as soon as you've seen what you need to, get her off the hook--give her another quarter....

   I admire your "holier than thou" attitude.  I think I might  give it a try myself someday.

   Edited 7/29/2003 5:30:02 AM ET by Bob Walker

2. 
   DanT | Jul 29, 2003 02:52pm | #76

   I couldn't agree with you more: 'education' today is pathetic. If you want to find out how poorly really basic skills are learned, next time you buy something, for, say, $10.47 or some other odd number, give the cashier a twenty, then wait till she's hit the 'total' button on her keyboard and the change amount shows up on the little screen. Then say, 'Wait a minute: I've got the 22 cents' and give it to her. Watch her face.

   If she's under 40 years old, the likelihood is great that she'll get all confused, turn red with embarrassment, and not be able to figure out how much she now owes you. Don't be mean, though--as soon as you've seen what you need to, get her off the hook--give her another quarter....

   Dino,

   Having taught a little bit of school in a vocational enviroment I would like to comment on this theory.  My mom taught me to count change.  And I went to school 35 years ago.   So I don't think the state of education has a lot to do with this issue.  Further I find it in poor taste to embarrass someone for sport.

   I have a customer who cannot read or write.  He is 74 years old and simply never learned.  He is retired from 47 years of service as a railroad worker.  When I do work for him I write out my own check and fill out his check registar.   I make an effort to act as though I do this for all my customers although I am sure he knows I don't. 

   While I appreciate your crusade against "big business" and its effects on consumers I don't agree with your making sport of public humiliation of people.  I do believe strongly in holding people accountable for their actions but do not agree with the idea of the "set up" just to prove that the entire education system is flawed.  DanT

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 30, 2003 05:53am | #78

   Sorry--I don't seem to have done too well on a few posts last night. Must've gotten carried away by the self-defense urge and let it influence the prose to the point where the point itself got buried in snappy repartée. Duh--to me.

   You're right--it's unacceptable to embarrass someone for sport. (You have an educational justification for the embarrassment suffered by the kids who can't answer your arithmatic question.) You can, of course, create exceptions to this rule for 'special cases' you know whom you think deserve it--in which case it stops being sport and becomes something else--but I rarely do this; it's easier and less trouble to just ignore those people and try to stay out of their orbit. I must be getting old or something....Thank bog.

   In fact, the excercise I described is not something I've ever done deliberately, nor would I. So it was pretty crappy of me to suggest it--however hypothetically--to you. But I don't like walking around with 13 pounds of change in my pants pockets any better than the next guy, and if I can, I usually give whatever change will reduce the number of coins weighing down my trousers. As a result, I've noticed this phenomenon as a sad fact of modern life. When it does happen that the cashier becomes embarrassed, I try to help out as gently as possible, even taking the time to show him/her how to count off the change if it won't increase the embarrassment of the poor kid. Often, older cashiers who take great pride in this ability which their juniors lack, will come to the rescue without me having to do anything.

   This state of affairs points to a generalized de-emphasizing of basic arithmatic skills in the public schools. While it may well be true that 'counting out change' is one of those things usually learned at home or on the job, anyone who can do simple mental arithmatic would be able to figure out how much change to give without going through the verbal routine of "twenty-eight, twenty-nine, thirty, fifty, seventy-five, ten dollars. Thank you sir. Come again." Sadly, kids are using calculators in grade school now instead of learing their times tables. (And they're using Spell-Check instead of participating in spelling bees.) I wasn't allowed to use a slide rule until the second half of my senior year in high school. (Electronic calculators didn't yet exist, of course.)

   The method of mental calculation I demonstrated at the head of my post to you was not taught me in school, either, BTW. It was my father (a mechanical engineer who by the time he died had forgotten more math than I've yet learned) who taught me that. He, of course, held the same opinion about the schools I attended that we hold about the schools our children are attending: When he was in school, he was required to memorize the times tables up to 20 times 20. I can extract  (with some difficulty, I admit; I'm rusty) a square root with a pencil and paper; he could do it in his head, and be accurate to two decimal places. In one way, he made my adolescent life hell: I always had to learn two ways to do my math homework--the way my math teacher taught it, and the way his math teacher had taught him. I still have some of his textbooks, too.  Now, I appreciate them. (Not then, of course! LOL)

   The phenomenon of making money by catering to lazyness--whether mental or physical--is pandemic, and is very likely the root of many of our world's problems. A silly example: It used to be that dart players had to be able to simultaneously  multiply, add, and subtract in order to know at what to throw in a game of 301--and they had to be able to do that while half in the bag, too! I haven't been in a real dart-players' bar for many years, but I understand that now there are dartboards with sensors in them hooked to computerized score boards which will automatically suggest your 'outs' before you throw. (Yes I know there used to be 'outs cards' published; but people who used these aids were not considered serious players back when 'dinosaurs' roamed the earth.) Does this improve the game? Does it encourage people to exercise their minds? I don't think so.

   Is it any wonder industry can't find enough good technical workers? I think we agree on that one. And that may indeed be a good part of the reason for the degradation in the quality of tools and merchandise in general.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

1. 
   Dinosaur | Jul 30, 2003 06:00am | #79

   Latest update:

   Received from CH today.

    Subject

   I am NOT making a warranty claim for this tool. I just want to buy the parts ...

    

    Discussion Thread

    Response (CAT Support)

   07/29/2003 04:17 PM

   Please provide a daytime phone number. The service manager would like to speak to directly to resolve this matter.

   Okay. I wonder if he's going to validate my (deliberately) obnoxious behaviour by greasing the squeaky wheel, or offer to send me a coupon good for 10% off my next purchase of a CH tool...?

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?

2. 
   Luka | Jul 30, 2003 06:19am | #80

   Maybe he read this thread ?

   A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.

   Quittin' Time