We recently moved onto a farm with a well. The well is 250′ deep with a newer submersible pump. The pressure, however, is poor. Last night the toilet ran in the barn, and it shut off all water to the house!
Talking to a plumber in the area, he told me that we should have a pressure tank somewhere. I can’t find one, and don’t recall the previous owner ever mentioning one. I was under the assumption that the well pumps directly into the house, but the plumber thought there had to be a tank somewhere. Am I correct that the water could be pumped into the house without a tank?
Assuming there is no tank, what is the best way to bump the pressure to our city-slicker standards? Will a pressure tank help? What about boosters (such as this www.low-water-pressure.com)?
Thanks much! Brian
Replies
For a Sub pump to work properly, a pressure (holding tank) is required. This tank stores an certain amount of water and eliminates the need for the pump to start and stop every time a tap is opened. Along with the pressure tank there should be a pressure control which also can be adjusted. You should also have a pressure gauge to indicate what the actual pressure is in the tank.
Look around, I,m sure you have a tank and a control. Post back with the control's particulars (type, make, model,etc) and we will advise further.
A pressure tank is basically just a cylinder with a bladder inside that does just what your previous response said- it prevents the pump from having to come on all the time. It is preferred to have it plumbed between the pump and the first water outlet (tap, sink etc.) That should solve all your problems. The bigger the cylinder, the less your pump has to come on.
There's a lot of places a pressure tank can be. The manufacturer I spec most often (Amtrol) has tiny models that can be hidden in a crawlspace or joist bay, corrosion-resistant models that can be buried, and some that just don't look like pressure tanks. Usually, though, it will be a simple vertical cylinder with a slightly domed top, if it's more than 15 years old it may be galvanized. You may have a pump house, I have seen them buried in uderground vaults or stuffed in a closet somewhere.
IIRC, a submersible pump can possibly run without a pressure tank installed, but in order for that to happen, your entire water system would be under pressure constantly, and as soon as you opened a faucet or flushed a toilet, the pump would run. It would also still require some kind of pressure switch to tell it when to shut itself off.
Assuming there is no tank, the first order of business would be to install one. Have your plumber size it properly for the demand. Low pressure boosters are only good for city water when the incoming pressure is too low, typically below 30 psi. If your submersible pump can't get the pressure in a pressure tank up to the upper limit for the pressure switch, then the sub pump is too small.
I am positive there is no tank in the house. I gutted the house to the studs and that makes hiding hard. The water line comes in the basement and goes directly to the plumbing. It's all in an unfinished basement, so a tank would be hard to miss.
I know the previous owner put a new pump in a few years back, but he isn't around anymore to get more details.
As for it being outside, it's pretty darn cold in Minnesota, and it seems like it wouldn't make sense to locate it outside. I know where the well is, and there is no pumphouse.
Thanks, Brian
There needs to be a "controller" somewhere that senses pressure and controlls the pump. Now there are fairly new variable speed systems out within the last few years. Those don't need a tank, but I probably a small one would be used in most cases. But there would be a pressure sensor and an electronic controller at some location in system.Otherwise you would have a tank and a pressure switch. Trace the electricity.Onething that you can do it so tap the line at the well. See what kinf of pressure and flow that you have there.That will quickly isolate the problem between the well/pump and the lines/valves/filers/tanks in the distribution "system".Also you did not indicate if there was any significant changes in elevation.
I just got ahold of the previous owner (he was in the hospital and without a permanent residence, which is why I know little about the system).
I do have a pressure tank with a bladder. It's "down in the well pit." It was there when he bought the place in 1973, and is about 80-120 gallons. The pump is 4-5 years old, submersible, and the pressure cut offs are 45-65.
He told me that he had problems 2-3 times per year with low pressure, which he fixed by removing the water softener at the bypass and cleaning the screen of "lots of sediment and rust."
He also told me that the tank could be waterlogged, and to fix it I should turn off the power to the pump and run the freeze-proof hydrant (hand pump by the well) until the tank is dry, then turn the power back on.
Make sense? Good advice???
I also found out that my septic in the barn goes to a big metal above-ground tank behind the loading dock, which will be my next post...
Thanks for all the great advice, Brian
"He told me that he had problems 2-3 times per year with low pressure, which he fixed by removing the water softener at the bypass and cleaning the screen of "lots of sediment and rust.""Exactly what I suspected. I don't know what kind of screen that there is, but you might want to look into getting a sediment filter and then expecting to replace the cartridge several times a year."I do have a pressure tank with a bladder. It's "down in the well pit." It was there when he bought the place in 1973, and is about 80-120 gallons. The pump is 4-5 years old, submersible, and the pressure cut offs are 45-65.""He also told me that the tank could be waterlogged, and to fix it I should turn off the power to the pump and run the freeze-proof hydrant (hand pump by the well) until the tank is dry, then turn the power back on."If it is a bladder tank and if the bladder is working then it can't be water logged. The air is on one side of the bladder and water on the other. There will be a schrader valve (tire valve) on it for filling it with air and testing with a pressure guage. If you press on the center pin in the valve and water does not come out them the bladder is good.And if it is a bladder type and air pressure is low then you need to use an compressor or tire pump to refill it. Because of the bladder air is separated from the water and opening the hydrant will not all air into the bladder side.Now a water logged tank or a bladder tank with too high or too low pressure will not cause low flow. What will happen is that the pump will cycle too much or too little, i.e. you will have good flow until the tank runs out of water and the flow will (nearly) stop and then the pump starts and flow returns.Inspecting the tank and checking the pressure sound like good spring project.
I think......If the tank has been there since '73 it could easily not be a bladder tank. My house was built in the late seventies and the original tank was not a bladder tank. It starting water logging maybe ten years ago and had to be replaced a couple of years later.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I built my house in 79 and a couple of years later I get a blader tank and convertal jet pump from Sear outlet wharehouse. I am guessing around 82-84.
Brian, Welcome to rural life and a well system. <G> Sounds like you want to get educated about how all this stuff works, so I'll toss a couple links in here that should help…..provided you take the time to read and make sure you understand. You need to determine if you have a single compartment tank or a bladder tank to start with. That 's because there differences in what you can expect from the two and because there's devices you can install on a single compartment tank to help prevent water-logging……..or the opposite, because it's also possible for a tank to become air-logged. Depends upon your particular well system and circumstances. Note the aforementioned and then realize that you cannot necessarily install a bladder tank on every system and expect it to perform properly. If a particular well system tosses a bit of extra air at the tank during each cycle, you'll end up with an air-logged tank unless you have a single compartment tank equipped with a deep-well air release. Usually, a galvanized tank exterior will indicate a single compartment tank while a painted tank indicates a bladder tank……..but not always. A better way to determine this is to look where the delivery line exits the tank. If there's a "largish" metal plate down there with a series of bolts around the perimeter, you have a bladder tank. And usually in this instance there will be only one pipe entering that plate. IOW, the inlet and outlet pipe are one in the same. On a galvanized tank, there will be a separate pipe for the inlet and the outlet. And please note that while turning off the pump and draining the tank will help to restore the air to water ratio, it does not restore it to the optimum ratio. It's a bit quicker fix than also adding some air to the tank, but your pump will run more frequently than if you restore the optimum air ratio. While bladder tanks need to be pre-charged, there's no reason why you can't also pre-charge a single compartment tank. The only difference is that in a single compartment tank, there is no bladder separating the water and air…..and so the possibility of losing that ideal ratio over time is increased. The basics of pre-charging any tank are pretty simple. Turn off the well pump and drain the tank of all water. This is best done at the bottom of the tank, not at the hydrant above the well pit. You may have a drain on the tank, but if not you can loosen a union down there to accomplish the same. Once the tank is drained, close off the drain again and using your air compressor, charge the tank so that the pressure gauge indicates a pressure 2 or 3 lbs. LESS than the kick-in on the pressure gauge. I think you said 40-60, so you're headed for 37-38 lbs. Then turn the pump back on and you're set. A bladder tank can become water-logged for a few reasons, the most likely of those being that the Schrader valve (like an tire valve) on the tank is leaking air….. or because the bladder has torn (rendering the tank the same as a single compartment)and so over time it can now become water-logged for the same reason. (the water in the tank absorbs some air over time)http://www.peekspump.com/tanks.htmhttp://www.drilleronline.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,3643,22239,00.htmlhttp://www.drilleronline.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,3643,80055,00.htmlhttp://www.bradyproducts.com/products.htm#airEdit: One more thing. It's possible that you have a Morrison well-head. If so, then there's a bit more you need to know. To determine this, go look at your well-head and see if it says Morrison" on the cap. If it does, come back at me and I'll explain how that works and what can go wrong there that can/will cause your tank to frequently water-log.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 12/9/2004 12:12 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 12/9/2004 12:17 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
As an update, I pulled the cover off the well this weekend. There is a big tank down there, and lines in and out. One of the lines (apparently out to the freeze-proof-hydrant) has a good leak going, with water spraying out under decent pressure. The bottom of the concrete whatever-you-call-it had a good puddle of water going. I got the name of the well company off one of the pieces of equipment and will let them figure it out. Thanks for all the help!
Brian
Well, see?A problem I didn't even think of. (The little underground room down there is called a well-pit.......in case you were wondering.) Probably the only dang thing that didn't get covered by someone here. A big ol' leak in a supply line. That would certainly account for low pressure and volume at the house. <G> I guess we all presumed you'd have a big mud hole in the yard somewhere if there was an ongoing leak .....cause there usually is. But your leak is apparently in the pit itself.Things should be better once you get this resolved, but you might as well get your tank's air/water ratio where it belongs while you're at at. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
The well guys came out today and fixed the leak. They said the tank pressure was fine, but found that my pump is running continuously. Either a bad pump (it's only 4-5 years old) or a hole in the pipe they say. So there were actually a couple problems.
Thanks again for all the advice, Brian
I know where the well is, and there is no pumphouse.
Take the top off the well and take a peek. You may very well find the pressure switch in there. If so, the tank's likely buried within a few feet.
Nothing I'd do, but I've seen it more than once. Bad time of year for you to be doing those kind of repairs. Good luck.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Is there a large difference in elevation between where the top of the well is, where the barn is, where the house is?
If not I suspect that there is not a pressure problem as much as a flow problem. There might be a restriction in the system. It could be down in the well, but more likely at a valve in the system, at a filter, etc.
See if you can contact the previous owner about where the tank and whatever is in the system.
Also try calling around to plumbers and well service companies to see who serviced the equipment. If the pump was recently replaced then you should be able to find them uless the HO did it.
There is a substantial change in elevation. The house and well (at least the access - the well is 250' deep) are at the top of a hill, and the barn is at the bottom.
Thanks, Brian
With no pressure tank in the house, that would explain why you get no water in the house if it is running in the barn. Toilet in the barn? Sweet.
We just replaced the pressure tank at our place. 60 gallon steel, cost about $900 CAD installed w/ the valves. Prior owners put the pressure up to 95 psi. Great pressure for the shower, but hard on the pump and it likely explains why the bladder in the old tank burst.
Also put in an shut off switch for the pump, in case it sucks air as our capacity is low - we draw about 2 gal a minute for 1 hour sustained. Those pumps and the labour to pull it up are expensive, so the switch is cheap insurance - detects the elec change when sucking air and times out for 10 mins or so before switching the elec back on.
If there is plumbing in the barn, maybe that is where the pressure tank is???Someone suggested tracing the electricity. I agree that is worth doing.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
you're in for some fun. i was a lifelong city boy who moved out to the country a few years ago and have become somewhat of a half-a$$ed expert on wells, pumps, pressure tanks, switches, filters, piping, back valves, calcite neutralizers, back flushing, softeners, the politics and laws of shared wells and what happens when the property the well is physically located on changes hands and the new owner is a complete %#$&*$ A$$H__E and a grossly stupid one at that, etc....
one thing in particular i'll add to this discussion- unless you don't mind throwing fairly serious money at it, forget having municipal water supply-type pressure. and get used to the 20psi variation (usually 30 to 50, but can get 40-60 switches) as the tank level changes, too. maybe you could buy a surplus water tower from a small town?
m
LMAO...too real for my memory..last place I had in NC had a spring box to a pump to a tank, to the house..moles, lizzards, POLY pipe with hose clamps, you name it..had no water more than with water..I gots 'city' water here now, we don't drink it but atleast we have it...lol
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
FYI, most pressure switches of 30/50 can be adjusted to reach 40/60 , or even higher cut-in/cut-out points.
Prior owners put the pressure up to 95 psi. Great pressure for the shower, but hard on the pump and it likely explains why the bladder in the old tank burst.
I run my water system 80/100 psi due to a major pressure drop to the house (50 psi), altitude caused. No problem for the tank, just make sure it's rated. As for submersible pumps, the manufacturers I've spoken with indicate no problem. I know my pump's been doing 80/100 for 15 yrs without complaining. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I run my water system 80/100 psi due to a major pressure drop to the house (50 psi), altitude caused. No problem for the tank, just make sure it's rated. As for submersible pumps, the manufacturers I've spoken with indicate no problem. I know my pump's been doing 80/100 for 15 yrs without complaining.
Wish I had your problem. ;)
My well installer had put in the pump for the previous owner and was concerned when I had him over for a service call that the pressure had been put up to 95 psi. I recall part of his concern was the lack of the operable bladder in the tank and the pump being over-worked. The back flow valve was really hammering shut when it hit the 95 psi level. He drained the tank and hooked up a compressor to at least give me an air pocket in the tank for a few weeks/months pending tank replacement. Now that the tank is replaced, all is quiet as a mouse - just a soft click when the valve closes.
I'll have to make a few phone calls re: putting up our psi higher. If the tank and pump can handle it, some more pressure would be nice.
Brian's last post is interesting re: the tank being down in the well. Our tank is in the basement, but our drilled well head is about 15' below grade, with a 4' diam cement shaft heading down to it. You have the same thing Brian, but with the tank down there as well? Bill H. had said trace the elec. I'd trace the plumbing lines and try to figure out where all is going. That alone could yield some answers. If the tank needs to be regularly drained, then it might be due for replacement - your well installer could give you some answers.
My well installer had put in the pump for the previous owner and was concerned when I had him over for a service call that the pressure had been put up to 95 psi.
Obviously I don't know anything about him, but my experience with both installers and supply companies left me with a problem. I was told that there would be no problem with my tank/switch placement, considerably down the hill from the house.
Wrong. 50 psi pressure drop. I gave up on installers and their suppliers, going direct to the manufacturer for advice. The first call (pump mfg.), the woman answering the phone took my installation specs, spent 20 seconds with her computer, and said "that won't work at all well". No news to me, I didn't have a shower unless the pressure was on the high side, with the switch adjusted as high as it'd go. Then it went from minimal to zero.
Local suppliers here don't stock a switch that'll go 80/100 and I was quoted amazing prices. Turns out they're worth about $15, Grainger and others. My 3 check valves are fine too. Had a couple people tell me that my pipes wouldn't take the pressure. Says right on the pipe 160 psi.
When you have an out-of-the-ordinary system, good luck with the local installers/suppliers. Read the specs, talk with people who know what they actually are, and you'll be fine.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I've got my money on Bill Hartman. I think there is a filter somewhere that needs changing.
Is the pressure consistently low?? Has it been low since the day you moved in? Gotten worse? Better?
A also agree that there is almost certainly a pressure tank somewhere.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
If there was no tank, the pump would cycle many times a minute during use, you would know it immediately during a shower (btdt.) There should be a tank, and the pressure switch that controls the pump is usually nearby. I had to hunt around for an expansion tank in a heating system I maintain for some beach folk's cottage and discovered it behind the formal wear of the master bedroom closet. So you never know...
With the comment that the submersible pump was replaced, it gets me think'n that you have an older system and maybe galvanized pipes that are corroded???. You get water pressure at the well head, but the restriction in the pipes reduces the flow.
When our old neighbor bought their home, a well cert was done and reported that the pump was needing replacement. The previouse owner paid for that, but they used the same old galvanized pipe when they put the new pump in. Basically, the corrosion broke off and started to weck havic on the rest of the system, including clogging the check valve.
Did you buy you home recently? And if you did, was the well system included in the first year's home warrenty(if any was purchased)
Also, if you can find out who installed the new pump and see if you can get a warranty on the pump.
What Bill Hartman said .
Tim Mooney
The man constantly amazes me with his broad background of knowledge! He is a deep well of information. ...wondering now what kind of pressure tank he is hooked up to? LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I needed a new well pump to fix the low pressure problem when I bought my house. Needed a new pressure tank too.
Last night the toilet ran in the barn, and it shut off all water to the house!
I think that's the whole problem, right there. Life is getting kinda easy out there on the farm. LOL You're supposed to have an outhouse, or hold it until you get to the house. :^)
Brian,
There is almost without doubt....a pressure tank and pressure switch somewhere.
Impossible to say from here exactly what may be wrong, but there's a few possibilites that come to mind as to why the water delivery is so poor.
The possibility of a clogged pipe has already been mentioned.
There's also the possibility of 1- a 240 pump that is only currently receiving 120V. 2- The pump is shot for some reason. 3- The pump is too small for the distance it has to lift the water. 4- The suction screen on the pump is clogged. 5- The pressure tank is completely waterlogged rendering the situation the same as not having one at all AND the pump is too small or the screen is slugged or the delivery pipe is clogged or the pump is not receiving full operating current.
Edit: Okay, here's another possibility. I've seen this just one time (over at the neighbor's), but it can happen. You have a bladder-type pressure tank, the bladder has torn, fallen and become lodged in a position that impedes water flow both into and out of the tank.
I guess there's also the possibility that the guy who owned this place was too cheap to install a pressure tank and just decided he could live without it and put up with poor performance while working the nuts off his pump......which is likely also too small cause he wouldn't pop for an adequately sized one.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 12/7/2004 1:04 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
hey, could you help ANDY C on his stain problem?Flooring glue thread I think..I know you got the fix..you da man.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Looks like I'm not gonna be of much assistance. He's goin' withthe Minwax cherry from the sounds of it.....and running out of time for experimenting and trials.Be a day late and a dollar short.Gotta do a couple service calls anyway and then to the shop to finish off a little stained glass unit.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Roger that
I turned his another direction as wellwe'll hear..and(not be culpable)..smoothe move.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Please ,repeat what you said in plain English
in line flow sensor.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
i've played with them on air compressors plenty of times and figgered i could probably do the same on my pump, but since it wasn't a particularly expensive pump- 1/2hp flotec- (i only have it to supplement pressure at our house- the well is actually a couple hundred yards away and underpiped with 3/4", at that) i didn't have a lot of faith in the switch and a higher pressure, better quality replacement was only about $16.
however, i'd love someone's semi-reliable opinion on the process, wisdom and potential problems of jacking up the range on my set-up to at least, say 50-70, or even 60-80?
m
It really depends on the pump curve.All centrifical pumps have pump curve.http://www.cheresources.com/centrifugalpumps5.shtmlFor steady-state flow you are limited to the pump curve and the demand curve.If you have large enough tank, with regards to the amount of water that you are drawing at one time then you can basically separate the two.The limiting factor is that you are working against the uppper left part of the curve. High pressure and low flow.You might start by bypassing the pressure switch and watching the pressure and see how high it can build.DON'T LEAVE IT. YOU WANT TO WATCH IT CONTINUOUS SO THAT YOU DON'T OVER PRESSURE AND BLOW A LINE.
Or maybe............collapsed piece of black poly pipe downstream of pressure tank...if there is one.We had to replace one of those damn buried PTs about ten years ago. What a stupid deal that was. Original owner buried the damn tank, didn't tell the new owners where it was. New owner managed to DIY a deck right over the thing and never knew. This place had a nice big basement, but the guy evidently didn't want to give up a couple sq. ft for a pressure tank. Duh. That's the only buried tank I've ever heard of around these parts.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
In line pressure / flow switches...
yes...
but never a buried PT...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
When we moved to the country (28 yrs ago) we had a shallow well with a stroke pump in the well pit. The pipe went out the side of the well pit to the pressure tank which no one had seen since it was buried there years ago. Once in a while the tank would get water logged and the pump would cycle on and off constantly. The local plumber would come out and do his thing and it would work ok for a while. When we finally dug a deep cased well, we put a new pressure tank w/bladder in the basement and have never had it so good! No more banking the well pit and no more froze up pump on the nastiest day of the year. We never had very good pressure with the old system. The old iron pipes get full of rust and sediment. We've cut pipes apart and you couldn't fit a pencil in the opening.
When we dug up the old mystery pressure tank, it was a 500 gal. iron tank. Maybe out of an old steam engine.
Good luck
Pete
Brian,
It looks like you got a lot of advise! I personally have suffered from the EXACT same problem. I do however have a 25 gallon "Wellextrol" pressure tank in the basement. The tank is a necessity, however the problem I experienced was the fact that when the water lines were installed the installer failed to run the water supply line from the well to the house first. Instead he put a "T" in the supply line coming off the well casing, and when there was a call for water at the barn, the house supply stopped. Water is lazy just like electricity, the house is set higher than the barn & closer so that's where it went. I assume that you have the same elevation situation. Hope this helps your situation.
trimslim
Edited 12/8/2004 10:34 pm ET by trimslim