I have read different takes on this over the past few years but often no one had any hard numbers.
I was approached by the Lowes here in town and asked if we would be interested in doing kitchen installs. They require 1 mil in liability and a bond but I didnt’ ask the amount.
But they gave me there price sheet that is broken down into a points system. Each points value is supposed to equal 20 minutes. We sat down this morning and compared it to our last kitchen job.
They would have paid us $1484 for 2 men for 3 days work. Figures out to about $31 an hour. So I figured what if we used a helper and worked alone more but still only got it to $44 an hour.
The only advantage I can see is that they stay out of any structural stuff and you can quote the electrical and plumbing if there are any. Tough to make money. Think I’ll pass. DanT
Replies
when HD first came into my area ... I went to a cattle call meeting ....
never stuck around for the one on one's ....
at that time ... forget the specifics ... but I would have had to add them to my insurance ... talked to my agent about it ...
he said how ever the wording they wanted was ... I'd be crazy to do it.
nothing like faxing a certificate for each job ... they were to be listed on my policy as one of the insured? Didn't make sense to me ... which is why I ran it past him.
I know for a fact HD put 3 local granite CT guys out of biz in the last coupla years .... kept making promises ... kept lowering their rates ... and these guys kept falling for it.
I also know a guy that subbed himself to a company that did HD/Lowes installs on a pretty regular basis ... said it was a big mess each time .... he was there as an extra hired gun ... but got to see the miscommunication between the customer and the GC .. and the GC and HD/Lowes .... first hand.
he stopped subbing for them .... they eventually stopped subbing for HD/Lowes.
Haven't heard anything positive about the process.
Jeff
Jeff,
>>Haven't heard anything positive about the process.
I can't imagine anyone making a decent living off of these companies.
On another subject though..........
>>at that time ... forget the specifics ... but I would have had to add them to my insurance ... talked to my agent about it ...
>>he said how ever the wording they wanted was ... I'd be crazy to do it.
>>nothing like faxing a certificate for each job ... they were to be listed on my policy as one of the insured? Didn't make sense to me ... which is why I ran it past him.
I'm curious about this. To get my local license, I need to send the county a certificate listing them as "addittional insured". To be pefectly honest with you, I am not exactly clear what that means. Same goes to pull a permit. The locality receives the certificate. Sometimes there is a charge for this, up to $50.00 but often there is not. i assume that if my client attemts to assign some liability to them for licensing me they will be covered by my insurance?
Jees, I better check into this!
And on another note.........
>I know for a fact HD put 3 local granite CT guys out of biz in the last coupla years .... kept making promises ... kept lowering their rates ... and these guys kept falling for it.
There's a fair sized co. right up the street. A guy I know gets a price from them (like always) for his client after a cabinet install. The ho tells him he can get the same tops from HD for something like 30% less! Guess who's making the tops for HD? Well the ship hit the fan and the fabricator just lost another customer. I wonder how long it will take before he finds himself doing only HD's work?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Eric, that happened to me about 9 years ago.
I called my "wholesaler" for a quote. He quoted about $1200 for my "wholesale" deal.
Curiously, I had Home Depot quote the same thing. They were $1100. I casually asked them where their stuff came from. It came from my wholesaler.
I've never went back.
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
.......never went back to which one??
Tough situations sometimes. You're loyalty to one supplier is dishonered as he cuts your legs out from under you........then you are often left to deal with a new supplier, an unkown factor.
I can't deal with the boxes for much of anything but supplies......outlets, wire and boxes; some tape or caulk, a few plumbing items.
Lumber yard or a specialty retailer is the way for me. I see guys in HD with 60 2x10's on a cart that they then reload onto their truck, yeah, great bargain.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I never went back to my wholesaler.
I didn't expect to beat a retail price by much, but don't charge me MORE!
blue
If you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Lumber yard or a specialty retailer is the way for me. I see guys in HD with 60 2x10's on a cart that they then reload onto their truck, yeah, great bargain.
not that I wanna start another HD bitch and moan session ...
but I don't get that either? I call the local yard ... have it delivered for $40 or $50 ...
and they send 2 kids that politely ask where I want it all carried to and stacked.
I'll stop by HD on the way home if I need say 10 studs for first thing the next morning ... but I go in knowing there goes another hour of my life.
Jeff
There's a fair sized co. right up the street. A guy I know gets a price from them (like always) for his client after a cabinet install. The ho tells him he can get the same tops from HD for something like 30% less! Guess who's making the tops for HD? Well the ship hit the fan and the fabricator just lost another customer. I wonder how long it will take before he finds himself doing only HD's work?
from the story I heard ....
that's pretty much how it went with the stone guys I was talking about.
They were undercutting their long time buyers to meet HD's prices ... someone got wise ... they were stuck selling to HD after everyone got pissed and left them ... then ... the HD snake squeezed the life outta them.
Almost has a "Sam Walton" touch to it.
Jeff
I worked as a maintenance super in some large business hotels. The company I worked for would hire a local crew to hang vinyl, remodel etc.
They would always pay a good rate, say 2 bucks a yard on 54" vinyl. The company would be glad to get the business and do the work. Then the company would say, hey we have place in Memphis, want to work there?
After a year or so when the the contractor had been working for them full time and he let his local contacts fall by the wayside they would slowly start lowering the rate. These guys would be sucked in and own not a business but a job. It was sad.
All big corps are the same in this regard in my opinion. I do think nothing will stop the growth of these home centers and their install programs. And I was thinking it might be a good hedge if the economy dumps. But the money would have to be better. DanT
I am putting together a kitchen now. I just took delivery monday afternoon.
I've been thinking a lot about guys who sub from the big box that throw the cabinets together in a couple of days.
Some times I think maybe I'm slow. Then I hear from people who had big box subs install their kitchens and they tell me their nightmare storys.
The point is if you're gonna do it right it takes time to scribe and fit everything and thats what I get paid to do. Anyone can slop 'em up and butch 'em out.
You can't totally blame those guys, they have to feed their familys too. But the day I have to work like that I'll go find another way to make a living.
I agree that the nightmares may not always be the installers fault. They don't own the whole process.
This may explain some things:My buddy hires a builder for an addition. The builder tells him "I'll install any kitchen cabs except HD." Intrigued I asked another buddy who works at the HD in the area. He says "Oh, yeah, we get a lot of returns on them. We had a real good estimator, even worked weekends and holidays. His only request was to have Wednesdays off to visit his daughter. New manager shows up and proclaims 'He'll work when I tell him to'. The good guy walks and the replacements are not even trained! Sometimes they forget to subtract for future drywall, etc.."
So: If one guy does the measuring, maybe another does the design and a third party does the installations - how can it NOT be a nightmare?
The only advantage I can see is that they stay out of any structural stuff and you can quote the electrical and plumbing if there are any. Tough to make money. Think I'll pass. DanT
Hi Dan. Why they ask for insurance? And why they give you the price and the scedjule? This is the biggest CON against the construction trade.
Where is the labor department? And where is the IRS?
Two of the Major 10 criteria that can classified you as a sub contractor and responsible for the insurance and taxes is that you set your price and the schedule.
I think that this calls for a major class A lawsuit to take back our trade and our rights as professional contractors.
There any smart lawyers around here?
YCF Dino
"There any smart lawyers around here?"
Here?
No.
Jeff
LOL
There is an outfit here that builds low cost houses in his yard and then trucks them out to the site. The kitchens are all kitset stuff from another outfit. They come packaged as a cabinet per box, stacked flat.
Easy to put together, then fix to the wall. My employer at the time got the job of fitting these things and sent me round to do it.
I found that by going like hell I could do a kitchen in a day. Problem was I didnt get a plan of what went where until I asked for it several times. Then got a hand drawn cheesy thing.
Got started and 1/2 way into it couldnt work out why the kitchen didnt work. There was a cabinet missing and a coupla parts for some others.
The aggro wasnt worth it and I refused to do any more. The boss told them to forget it. In any case I doubt very much that the money was worth the huge effort each day to get it done. Ya gets what you pay for.
Everything, 100% of it, depends on how you look at it.
DW