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Lull, Cat, JLG, IR??????

dieselpig | Posted in Tools for Home Building on December 19, 2004 11:25am

Howdy fellow framers….  I’m finally getting serious about purchasing an RTFL.  My old boss always had Cat machines, a TH63 and then a TH103.   I’m currently renting a LULL, but I don’t recall the model number offhand.  I like both brands of machines… they both have their strong points and weak points.  I’ve been doing a lot of research on the web, looking at used and reconditioned machines.  It’s all very confusing and of course, everyone swears that their machine is the best.  I recently read that Tim Uhler (who I am hoping stops by here) bought his IR for like $40,000, but I’m looking at what I believe are comparable Cat machines USED for around $60,000?  What’s up with that?

Anway, I guess what I’m asking is, what machines do you or have you owned?  What do you like and dislike about them?  How have their service records held up?  What to expect for monthly maintenance $?  Do I need a 6000lb, 8,000 lb, or 10,000 lb machine?  I don’t work with trusses very often at all, will be used mainly for lifting stock.  Probably heaviest use it will see is a lift of shingles (44bundles) or a lift of 3/4 sheathing and I honestly don’t have any idea what either item actually weighs.  I’ll take any and all information you have regarding your jobsite fork lifts….

Thanks in advance,

Brian

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  1. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 20, 2004 03:35am | #1

    Brian, I'm currently running a Skytrak 8042.  We can lift the entire lumber load.

    I had zero experience with lifts before we bought ours, so we rented one on a month to month basis. After one month, instead of renting again, we contracted to buy a new unit, and they credited the month's rent toward the purchase. It ended up being two months by the time they shipped ours.

    I took the advice of a framing ex partner and friend to order the 8000# unit instead of the 6000#. He had warned me that the 6000 gets tippy when fully extend with a load. He knew we were going to be aggressive, like he is, and gave us good advice. He was upgrading from a 6000 Skytrak (6036) to a 8000 (8042). He bought a used one with 2000 hours. He felt very comfortable buying a used machine because he said there is nothing that can go wrong on them and they are very easy to service. After using ours, I agree. They are built to take a beating...and win the battles! Ours just hit the 250 mark and got it's free warranty checkup and serviceing.

    Servicing should be a major part of the equation. We use a service here that has specialized in Skytraks for 20 years or more. They are very reliable and know the product inside and out.

    The 8000 pound units are actually built for masons, who lift heavy loads of block. The 6000 pound machine is for framers but the framers around here are often seen with huge walls and trusses dangling as they traverse the streets. It's not uncommone to see them raising really huge walls. Often, a 6000 pound machine will be too small for the crazies that work the sites here.

    I don't know if all machines are alike, but I wouldn't consider any that didn't have a horizontal levelor. We paid an extra 3k for an articulating boom, and that often comes in handy, but its a luxury, not a necessity. We also bought a 12 boom, but I would prefer a 15' boom...but they couldn't sell us one because the machine is not rated with it and they have the laws to constrain them. My ex partner bought a 15' boom from a diferent source when he upgraded. That extra 3' doesn't seem like a lot, but when your raising a huge gabled wall, that extra length/height makes a world of difference.

    We also bought a bucket and filled the tires with foam.

    Forest (ex par) mentioned that the 6036 was a better mudder...but the 8042 manages the mud pretty good. When you finally bury it, you can usually push yourself out with the forks.

    ONe reason that we bought the new machine was a huge tax break on new equipment. We were able to depreciate 80% in the first year! I think the law expired, or it expires at years end. If you need a tax break (we didn't, but it will help), buy new....but don't fret about buying used.

    blue 

     

    Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 20, 2004 06:16am | #2

      Thanks Blue, that's exactly the sort of feedback I was looking for.  If you don't mind me asking, what do your monthly maintenance costs look like?  Do you have outriggers, or stabilizers on your machine?  Any idea what the difference between a mason's carriage and a framer's carriage is? 

      There's a few things that I'm sure that I want on this machine, a tilting carriage, ballast in the tires, a leveling body, and I'd like to purchase a 12' work platform as well.  I'm still not sure if the outriggers or stabilizers are necessary or not and have never even seen an articulated boom in action.  When you were talking about the 12' and 15' booms, were you refering to the truss boom attachments?

      Thanks for all your help Blue.

      1. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 20, 2004 04:06pm | #6

        Diesel, our machine does not have outriggers. The Legacy series (2003 and later I think)  has internal stabilizers that lock all the axles when the boom reaches a predetermined angle. This effectively shifts the center of gravity back to the rear counterweight. Skytrak claims that they have significantly reduced tipping accidents with this technology.

        Maintenance is surprisingly easy. Every 250 hours, you need to change the oil. The mechanics have been very helpful and make suggestions, but they tell us that we just have to do the 250 maintenance and everything will be fine.

        We were offered a service contract, but when we broke it down, it just made more sense to pay the guys the $150 (that number is not accurate...I don't remember what it actually was/is)  or so for the 250 hour oil change. Anyone with a little bit of mechanical ability can service the machines....we probably wont..we'll let them do it for two reasons: it will be done right, all the filters will be changed right and our service records will reflect a well cared for machine that will translate into thousands of dollars when we sell it.

        The masons carriage vs the framers carriage was a wash...or maybe a slight extra. It certainly wasn't anything to make or break the deal.

        Outriggers only come on the 10054 Skytrak model. The machine will only extend to a certain limit before they have to be deployed.

        Our carriege tilts to about 45degrees. Because we bought the articulating attachment, it also rotates about 40 degrees each way. Rotating it is helpful if we are approaching the loading zone from an angle, but when you tilt and rotate, weird things happen and we quickly learned that it's not a simple matter to slide the forks out of a load from an angle. Additionally, I was disappointed to find out that the boom cannot be attached to the forks, which house the articulating features. I had envisioned using the rotation feature in conjunction with the boom, but that wont happen unless I figure out how to rig the boom onto the carriage, which I probably won't pursue.

        And yes, when I used the words boom, I meant the truss boom attachment. I should be using the word jib instead. These jibs are essential for handling trusses. It is much easier to cheery pick the trusses with the jib and it keeps the trusses far away from the machine and operator. The jib is also a great wall lifter. If I could only purchase one attachment, it would be the jib.

        I haven't looked closely at any platform simply because we do so much prebuilding on the ground, that a platform is not essential. I have however thrown up a couple of quickie scaffolds using the skytrak as one of the supports. That in itself has been extremely helpful. One end anchors to the house, the other out on the forks....it's very fast and easy and strong like a bull!

        No framer should be without a machine....any machine.

        One other think I should mention: credibility. You credibilty stock rises significantly when you show up on any job with a machine....even if its just a hollow shell and no motor. The builders automatically elevate your status to their "professional" ranks and understand that your "overhead" is greater and therefore your higher rates are 'justified". For them, time is money, and when they see a machine, they think they will get their houses faster.....and usually they do, but perception is everything. There are a lot of builders around here that won't hire a framing crew without a machine. 90% of the builders will ask if you have one during the sales process.

        blue

        blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

      2. User avater
        G80104 | Dec 20, 2004 04:30pm | #8

        Brian,

                    We have been using the IR now since 2000. Its been good so far. Few things that come to mine. 1. Does not like the cold ( we have a block heater on ours) 2. Make sure you get some type of lock-out. (almost any Bobcat /Case key fits the IR) . Many a time we have showed up after the weekend & the forklift was not where we left it on friday. 3. I would say we spend about $1200 a year on service & upkeep. 4. like others have said, make sure you get the tires foamed, flats =$$ 5. When we have to move it from job site to job site which is not often, it cost us $250-$300 .

           We also have a Case skid loader with a set of forks that we use often. Works great for unloading the trucks & moving small loads from point A-B. We have used other brands of RTFLs in the past & I would say The IR is right @ the top of the list.

           To bad we can not find Frenchy to post on this topic, if I remember right he was in the biz of equipment  sales / rental  & would be a good source of info.

                                         Happy Holidays!

    2. User avater
      Timuhler | Dec 20, 2004 08:05am | #4

      Blue,

      With that tax break we've got 3 new vehicles in our company.  2 cargo vans and 1 box van with boxes on the outside.  I get to drive the box van :-)

  2. User avater
    Timuhler | Dec 20, 2004 07:58am | #3

    Dieselpig,

    Ok, Blue gave you a lot of really good info.  Here is how we initially got into using forklifts.  A few years ago, we were looking at Cats, but they were about 50K and we didn't have any experience.  We contacted a few dealers in our area and one had an old old 70's machine for $7500.  We bought it and it ran pretty well and was such a huge help.  It started to break down so we contacted the same company.  A salesman recommended an Ingersoll-Rand VR-90B.  It was a 1998 with about 3000hours and all the maintanence records.  It is a 10,000lb machine with a 39' reach (I think, I have to check).  I talked to other dealers and rental yards.  One guy told me they only buy and rent Gradall and not Lull because Lull can have front end problems.  I'm not sure I believe that.  Both the Gradall and the Lull were very competitive in price (used) vs the VR-90B, but both had larger turn radius.  We sometimes build on lots that have 5' setbacks (10' between houses), so the shorter turn radius was a huge plus. 

    I did some research on the net and found that a lot of road crews use the VR-90B and from what I understand they work their machines much harder than we would.  For the price, 40K, we got a machine with the capacity, reach, reputation, etc. that made us comfortable.  It's been about 16 months with the machine and the only problems we've had were: loose wire on the horn, loose wire on the starter and the ebrake needed to be adjusted.  The Hyster mechanic comes out 4 times a year and does a check and tune up and that is it for maintenance.  It hasn't been expensive to run this machine.  The motor in it is a Perkins turbodiesel (supposedly a bulletproof motor) and we go through a full tank of diesel about every 5 weeks, so fuel isn't too bad.  Our excavator has a flatbed that he can move the forklift around with and charges $100 to move it.  If we are within 5 miles we just drive it to the next job.

    The Hyster mechanic told me that the newer Ingersoll-Rands are made in France and aren't as good.  I trust his opinion.  If I had to buy tomorrow, I would probably go with Gradall, or Lull.  Although Blue's lift sounds pretty good. 

     

    If I think of anything else, I'll post it to you, but that is all I can think of now.

    1. blue_eyed_devil | Dec 20, 2004 04:11pm | #7

      Tim, the ttight turning radius of the Skytrak still amazes me! The crab steering system is incredible and it comes in extra handy when we're positioning loads that are dangling from the extended boom.

      I always thought that the older style lifts were too cumbersome for small residential subs, but these latest versions are incredibly adaptive.

      We can shift out of crabstyle steering with the touch of a button, but I've never done so.

      blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

  3. caldwellbob | Dec 20, 2004 08:07am | #5

    I've used the 6000 lb and 8000lb Sky-Trak units. I like the 8000 one best. The rental place here is always selling them, too. One buddy of mine bought a used one, 6000 lb., I think, for $25,000.00. The rental place is Sunbelt rentals. Let me know here if you want more info. I can get the local and national address if you want it.

  4. gzajac | Dec 20, 2004 04:54pm | #9

    Brian

    My best advice is to buy a machine that has a reputable dealer close by. A lift is only as good as the service department backing them up. They do break down, even with preventive maintenance, and always at the wrong time, usually in the winter.

    I've had a Skytrak 9000# machine since 1989, and always changed the oil, filters etc.Bought it new with outriggers,foamed tires,framers carriage, tilt carriage and engine heaters for the winter.The dealer I bought it from went out of business in 91, so there wasn't a dealer in Connecticut for a number of years. The nearest dealer was out of Massachusetts, and they were excellent, but it cost $300 just to get them here.Parts can cost an arm and a leg,and some are available only through the  dealer.

    I have a problem  with the forks going up and down, and the machine is basically useless without the forks.The new dealer in my area has looked at the problem, and told me to junk it.There were only 3 made with my hydraulic system,  and they had problems with it from day one, but mine only surfaced recently.I have basically 8 tons of junk on my hands, so much for Skytrak longevity.I would say longterm they don't back them up.

    I rented a new Skytrak 8042, and it was a nice machine, but not as ruggedly built as my old one.The best thing it came with was the seat, very comfotable.The extra reach was very useful.On uneven ground , fully extended, felt tipsy.The service guy told me the only problem they had with the new ones was the brakes/planatary gears. I would ask your dealer if they have had any problems there.Supposedly 3 or 4 thousnand per hub to fix, maybe bull, but I'd ask about it.

    Foam filled tires are great, no flats, no down time. They bounce like hell when transported, and you will get some complaints.Kids cut off valve stems on my first machine, let out all the air and the calcium chloride, about a grand to fix.The framers carriage is 6 feet wide, fork to  fork, where the normal is only 4 feet.Framers carriage is very useful.Outriggers are useful when lifting heavy weight at maximum reach of boom, provide a lot more stability.

    If you frame every day, all year round, a forklift is the only way to go.The monthly payment comes due whether your working or not. I bought mine before the slowdown in the early ninties, and the payments came awfully quick, when we were slow.You will be amazed at all the new friends you will have when you own your own lift, they use it, you make the payments.

    Greg in snowy Connecticut



    Edited 12/20/2004 9:01 am ET by GZAJAC1

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 22, 2004 01:07am | #10

      Just stopped back in to thank all you guys for the great feedback, it's just what I was hoping for.  It's going to be a tough decision and it's probably gonna come down to either Lull, IR, or Cat.... reason being is that they are all local so I'll be able to get service when I need them.  I'm getting great feedback on all brands including Skytrak (too bad they're not local) so I'm not really worried about which brand I choose... that means it's probably gonna come down to price and availability since I'm buying used.

      Anyway, thanks again fellas.

      1. User avater
        bobl | Dec 28, 2004 09:35pm | #11

        , 

        bobl          Volo, non valeo

        Baloney detecter

        1. User avater
          dieselpig | Dec 28, 2004 11:39pm | #12

          ?

          1. User avater
            bobl | Dec 29, 2004 01:23am | #13

            just bumping it up so Frenchy would see it, but Muke put a link in the other post. 

            bobl          Volo, non valeo

            Baloney detecter

          2. User avater
            dieselpig | Dec 29, 2004 02:59am | #14

            Gracias...

  5. kcoyner | Dec 29, 2004 05:21am | #15

    dp

    I use the Telehandler TH63 and they are expensive.  Mine has 3 way steer, front outriggers (a must for safety), 3 way fork tilt, and will lift most anything I want around the jobsite given the correct geometry.  It's rated to #6000.  

    Cat is a fine piece but at a premium price.  FWIW I feel it's it's fairly simple to operate (joy stick) easy to service, and will move down the road at between 20-25 MPH if you don't have far to go. 

    k

    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 29, 2004 05:33am | #16

      k,

      Thanks for the feedback.  I've used Cat's extensively in the past.... TH63's and then later my boss gave me a brand new TH103 with heated cab and man lift (spoiled rotton).  I really like the CAT machines, but I've been renting a LULL for the past two months or so and have decided I really like that too!  Wanted to test the waters and see what's out there.

      I'm looking hard right now at two used Cat machines, a 63 and an 83.  The 63 is a 2000 that is short on hours but also short on features.  The 83 is a '99 with more hours but more features, (cab, stabilizers, larger forkset).  Tough call.  Both are around $62,000.  I'm leaning towards Cat because I'm more familiar with those machines and know of a very good local service outfit for them.

      I'm still waiting to hear back from Lull.  I really like the Lull machines too. 

      Probably gonna come down to price, availability of used machines, and service.  I don't think I can lose either way though.

      Thanks again,

      DP

      1. kcoyner | Dec 29, 2004 05:41am | #17

        dp,

        My bricklayer just bought a Lull (used newer model) and one thing he told me really likes is that somehow the entire boom will slide foward on themachine making it easier to move heavier loads higher.  I don't know what the specs on the machine are and haven't seen it yet cause he always uses mine when he's working for me.   He does a good bit of commercial work and keeps it on the bigger jobs and says he really likes the machine. 

        k 

         

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