I went to the lumber yard yesterday to pick up 5 – 4x4x10’s for the posts for the railings of a deck that I’m building on a house that I framed this summer. I went with my friend who is the builder and nobody came out to help which is no problem because I pick through everything to get the best ones which is something that I do all the time but I also stack whatever is bad in a neat pile, I don’t throw everything all over the place.
The guy who works in the yard finally comes out but by that time I’m just about done searching through about 20 pieces and only finding 2 good ones.
I asked him if he had a pair of snips to cut the band of the next stack. He said why? I said because all of these are garbage and I need good ones. He said that’s going to be a problem. I said why? He said because his boss will be pissed if he cut open another stack when they didn’t use the ones that were there already on top. I said that I went through all of these and there garbage and I’m not taking garbage. He said it again about not opening the stack. Now I’m PISSED.
I went to my truck and took my snips out and cut the band. I told him, what do expect your customers to do when we’re paying good money for this lumber and there all garbage, take them because there on the top of the pile? He said, well there not that bad.
I told him that I could care less what you think or your boss thinks because I’ll go through the whole F!!!!!G pile until I find 3 more good 4×4’s and I’m not one of these fly buy night contractors that will just nail up any SH!T in the pile on their jobs, so you can either go through the pile with me and I’ll help you stack the bad ones or you can go get your boss or walk away.
He helped me stack them until I found what I needed.
The point I’m trying to make is that when I go to a lumber yard I always do this and never had a problem befor and I’m sure everyone else out there wants to pick through the pile and see what’s good to use if it’s very important. What are you going to do, sit in the truck and let these idiots pick out pieces for you and load your truck and then when you get to the job there all garbage and now you have to go back to get good ones. That’s not happening!
Has anyone else had a problem going to a lumber yard and trying to pick out good material?
Joe Carola
Replies
High grading is expected where I buy. It's a small local yard, but even the owner (yes, the owner sometimes is working the yard and helping load) sorts through the pile. He knows damn well I won't take away any crap.
Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
I also said to the guy that it's not his fault or his boss' fault that the lumber is bad and you or them can't expect contractors to take bad lumber if they don't want too.
I thought that this guy was joking at first but when he kept talking I felt like hitting him in the head with the 4x4's. ;-)
He just pissed me off because that was the first time that ever happened and I don't use garbage nor would I ever use garbage material for any of my jobs.
Even though I do alot of framing I will pick out framing material. I wont take anything that on the top or the bottom of a beam is not 1-1/2" wide. Sometimes there missing 6 7 or 8" off the top or bottom and all you have left to nail decking or sheetrock to is 1/4" so I throw them aside also.
Joe Carola
When I was in Building Trades school in 1977 we had a spokesman from some national lumber group come and speak to our class. He told us we should buy the worst lumber we could and get used to building with it because in 20 years there wouldn't be anything else... He wasn't far off! At the time, I couldn't believe it.
I never thought I'd see the day when the most valuable man might be the best one to go to the yard and get the lumber!
I gotta hand it to our local guy, he sells the crap to ranchers for cheap, has his guys cut stakes, lath, etc. out of the crap, and sometimes just gives it away for firewood. I'd hate to have his overhead...Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Hasbeen, I know you are in CO, but I wasn't sure where. Want to share the name of your lumber yard?
I like our lumberyard, but they've sent some incredibly bad lumber at times.
He's almost to the NM border and I'm half way between you two....
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Thanks. Yeah, I guess I won't be going THAT far for lumber. :-)
Besides, they all know me by name at my lumberyard.....I don't think they get many women in there so I kind of stand out. Still, the 2x6 that was pretty much all bark with moss growing all over it was a little bit over the top. Kiln dried? Really? It seemed green to me.....well it was green because it had moss all over it. :-)
How close are you to Pine or Fairplay?
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Not very close to those towns. We are closer to the I-70 Corridor and our lumber comes from Boulder.
Sorry.. No help.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Zorc Lumber 719-738-3700
Owner is Frank Zorc. He might be able to drop ship out of Denver...
At least I can vouch that he's a good guy. I checked prices and got bids from CoSpgs and Pueblo and he has met or beat everybody. And I don't have push hard to get it!
When I was building forms and he didn't have enought 3/4 CDX for me, he gave me BB form material to complete the order - no extra charge. I'm buying 1 1/8th t&g subfloor ply from him for $34 each. He had it in stock, so he didn't pay too much for it, but most places would have gouged because they could.
Out of Boulder, you say? I used to live just off Hwy 72 in various Coal Creek areas, twenty years ago. Had to leave, though. It was just too crowded for me!Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.
Thanks for restacking with the junk on top where it protects the goods below. What does it too me bad is when i walk up to a pile of freekin spegetti that came from the stack of 2x6x20's next door on top of the lift I MUST go thru for the five boards I need to be perfect. Thanks again for your excellence in lumber yard takeover/management skills. Customer is the boss. Jack
Hey...hey...hey... Take it easy pal. Back up a minute there. Remember something... you can go shop for your lumber elsewhere instead of taking over the lumber yard by force. Sure we all pick through a pile of lumber and try to pick the best ones, But you must be reasonable. If the guy said his boss would be pissed , you should have respected that and not put his job in jeopardy. He is just trying to assist you not get his but kicked or fired. Something i do is to go to the lumber yard and specifically ask for the crappy ones, for instance fire blocks dont have to be pretty ...so i'll take garbage 2x4 materials they usually throw in a few extra. Point is now when i go there looking for a good one they will allow me that opportunity knowing that I will be reasonable. Remember that lumber yard boss had to $ purchase the same lumber before you ever set eyes on it , and it is his intention to sell it to you for profit of course. You will learn to go to specific lumber yards for specific items, some just have better things than others. i have a lumber yard where i can go to buy 4x4's where i know each one is perfect straight off the pile. The lesson to be learned here i think is to take a deep breath and try not to be too pushy with the people that you will be dealing with sometimes daily, we are all just trying to make it through the day hopefully with a profit. Try going back and bring a dozen donuts, tell him you were having a #### day and you didnt mean to take it out on him, and you hope you didnt get him in trouble with his boss now pass me a jelly donut. Maybe your not that type. But it could be the start of a new attitude on your part which would appear more professional. you could also talk with the boss and express your concerns with quality. the donuts would help make those guys say here comes "Frank" ? vs. here comes that *#@*! *#*hole Take it easy and good luck. Shots
Framer
Or.......... you could do what you usually do.
When I worked at a lumber yard as a Contractor Sales Rep we often had the problem of retail customers sorting through the lumber. We had a policy that allowed our regular builder customers the opportunity to sort the product. This was achieved by sending someone in the yard to assist the customer with tthe loading BUT (and it is a BIG BUT....) we set the cull lumber to one side on a regular basis to keep the inventory fresh (and hopefully straight). We would send out in our monthly statements a flyer that listed our cull as well as other specials. Man sometimes the cull would go out faster than the regular GOOD stuff. Farmers particularly are keen on the cull. Our yard foreman was on top of things and the manager was on board with the program. One of my customers after meeting with me on site asked for a leftover material pickup. We went over to look at it and naturally some was crooked. He remarked that we would likely save it at the yard and send it out again with his next order. i agreed with him ......... told him we take the bad stuff back and cut it into cross bridging and stakes and then sell it back to him at a higher margin!! He got the idea.. The cut shop was a good profit center that used any residual cull. Between a few different ideas we got rid of the cull so everyone was happy- the builder got his good stuff, the farmer got his cull at a barn burner ( couldn't resist!!) price and we got our extra margin on the stakes and cross bridging..My DW says I'm a tool head with a sawdust brain !!
Or.......... you could do what you usually do.
What is it that I usually do?
Joe Carola
Joe
I just meant that you could disregard the post previous to mine and do what you and everyone else normally does.
Doug
I just meant that you could disregard the post previous to mine and do what you and everyone else normally does.
I had to go back and read it and I guess I really didn't pay much attention to all of it but he's a comedian. It's all your fault. ;-)
Joe Carola
Hey...hey...hey... Take it easy pal. Back up a minute there. Remember something... you can go shop for your lumber elsewhere instead of taking over the lumber yard by force.
That's a good one Shotsy.............. yeh, I went in there like gang busters trying to find nice pieces of 4x4's for railings on a deck that I'm building.
If the guy said his boss would be pissed , you should have respected that and not put his job in jeopardy. He is just trying to assist you not get his but kicked or fired.
First of all he didn't come over right away, I saw him standing buy the trim shed doing nothing and I was going through the pile with the builder who is my friend. When I told him that I wanted to open the other pile because all the ones but two I went through were garbage and I can't use garbage because they were for a deck, he should have RESPECTED that right from the start. I am the Customer RIGHT?
Secondly, when he started complaining, I told him to go get his Boss because I'm not buying garbage Period! He didn't do it. So if he was really in jeopardy of his job he would have gone to get his boss.
The lesson to be learned here i think is to take a deep breath and try not to be too pushy with the people that you will be dealing with sometimes daily, we are all just trying to make it through the day hopefully with a profit.
There's no lesson to be learned for me with this one Shotsy because I am a reasonable guy, in fact very reasonable. I'm not the type of guy that put myself in situations where there can be an argument because I don't like arguing with people unless they hit a sort spot with me and he did. This guy was trying to tell me to take garbage lumber for my job and use it.
There isn't anyone who will tell me to use garbage lumber on a job especailly a guy that works in the lumber yard. I have pride in what I do and love what I do for a living and this was the first time in 20 years that this happened and if it happens again I will do the same thing.
Try going back and bring a dozen donuts, tell him you were having a #### day and you didnt mean to take it out on him, and you hope you didnt get him in trouble with his boss now pass me a jelly donut.
That wont happen because I wasn't having a bad day until he was trying to tell me to use garbage lumber for one of my jobs and I was teaching him a lesson on how a Quality Contractor does work.
I'll see him Wednesday and there will be no problem at all because I have a good sence of humor and I'll make him smile. He has a pretty good built on him so I'll ask him if he wants to wrestle.;-)
Joe Carola
Edited 10/6/2003 8:52:42 PM ET by Framer
Hey Joe, I guess I got the wrong impression from your story. There are some guys out in the trade who have no clue how to conduct themselves or their business and i was just trying to help make the contracting world a better place. The lumber yard I go to has a system in place where the guy who takes your order also goes out with you and loads along side with you, so the experience is flawless, and the yard carries absolutely the best materials. of coarse wood will be wood and you get a bad one time to time, and you're right you do'nt have to buy that one no matter what anyone says. I too have been at it for 20 + years and can apprteciate your insistance on working with only the best quality, even if it is hard to find from time to time. Obviously a thought provoking story. Good luck keep smilin' Shotsy
But it could be the start of a new attitude on your part which would appear more professional. you could also talk with the boss and express your concerns with quality. the donuts would help make those guys say here comes "Frank" ? vs. here comes that *#@*! *#*hole Take it easy and good luck. Shots
Shotsy, I just read the rest of your post and it's pretty funny how your trying to give me advice but I don't nead your advice at all, you sound like you've either taking a few to many shots to the head or you drank a few to many shots.
The guys who work in the yard where you probably go say when your coming. "Here comes that Unprofessional A##HOLE Shotsy stuffing his face with jelly donuts looking to by our garbage wood for a new deck that he's building".
Take it easy Shotsy and happy crooked building.
Joe Carola
Joe,
Last week I went to pick up 3 16' pieces of casing, the new guy (least I never saw him) in the yard "helped" me get two of them, but looked very insulted when I asked to look at them before he put them on the rack on my jeep.
they were just the top two beat all to hell and I said they won't do, offered to put them back myself and find two that met my needs. He got all huffy bitched a littke and walked away.
Guess he went to the "boss" or someone higher up and started bitching. One of the guys I sort of know came over, and apoligized for the guys behavior and told me he'd re-stack the dozen or so I rejected and set aside for me and I could get on about my business. I always restack the crap I move aside.
so I guess it's not everywhere.
Around here the good yards now would call the police.
You buy the grade stamp and that is all.
I hope you are joking....
Around here the good yards now would call the police.
You should move.
You buy the grade stamp and that is all.
You should move.
Goerge, I'm talking about when I have to go to the lumber yard and get some material wether it's framing material, trim, decking etc.......... I will pick through everything until it's all good.
When I fax a lumber list to a yard for delivery and the materials get there during the framing process or trimming process or whatever it is that we're doing we will put all the lumber aside in a pile and when I ask for my next load to come out we will put the bad material back on the truck and send it back.
No lumber yard can tell any contractor that they have to use whatever material they send you if it's bad or if you go to the yard yourself and pick through a pile until you find good material and they get pissed off then you should go somewhere else.
So, if you where serious about what you said above, are you saying that you're the type of contractor that would use garbage material because the yard would call the police if you cut the band and picked out your own good stuff and that you buy the grade stamp and that is all?
I'm sure if you look at it legally I wasn't supposed to cut the band because of liability reasons, it's like going to a Home Depot and walking up one of those ladders that they have in the isles. Being that I've cut millions of bands over the years and know how to do it without it snapping back at you and cutting you, I just did it and wasn't going to waste time with this GOON any longer so I could go back to work.
Joe Carola
Had virtually the same occurrence about 15 years ago at the local yard here. Yard guy got officious on me and attempted to ream me a new one for cutting the bands. Said I couldn't have any of that new unit until the old one is totally gone. Huh? I'd been sorting and buying lumber there for years without any previous objections whatsoever. Always put everything back nice and neat, just like you.
And so………….I walked up to the office and had a "discussion" with the head honcho about the "new policy". Finally told him that either I got the lumber I needed there or I'd drive the 15 miles to the other yard where I knew they encouraged sorting so as to minimize returns and keep everyone happy. He told me to take what I needed from the new unit.
Return to yard and inform the yard boss what I'd been told. Didn't believe me and so he called up to the office. I could see the steam rolling from his ears as he moved the forklift out of my way, but he never challenged me again. Cold-shouldered relationship from that point on though……..until he retired. Now I run into him around town and he's just as friendly as can be. Actually goes out of his way to come over and shoot the breeze. Damndest thing.
There's nothing quite like having a grown man come yelling and screaming at you for cutting open a bundle of 2 x 8s because he hasn't sold the last 6 on top. The time this happened was subsequently the last time we used that yard.
All this is making me feel more fortunate. For all my little gripes with the yard from time to time, my rep there pretty much knows me and knows what I'm doing, and he sorts it before it goes on a truck. I've had him send a truck out before with a couple of boards he put a black X on the end when I said I needed two of the pieces absolutely straight for something specific. I think I'll thank him again.
"The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb " lyrics by Roger Waters
There is a sh**hole in Howe, OK that gets vicious when you sort. But they use the culls to build mini-barns on the cheap. Crappiest oufit I ever saw in my life as far as quality ans attitude go. One of my Bro-in-laws does business there. I tried to show him how it was COSTING him more to use them but he never could see past the low cost per board. Oh well....
Our yard alows culling. They'll even help.
The better culls go into building sheds. The rest for fire wood for some of us locals.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
I guess I'm spoiled some; both the yards I deal with operate their own mills right on site, so the stuff on the stacks is pretty good.
But for framing, I don't bother culling at the yard. I just order about twice what I need, toss the bananas and hockey sticks aside on my site, and when the job is done, call the yard to send a truck to pick it up and credit my account. No restocking charge, no pick up charge, no BS.
But they know I drive the extra 15 miles to go to them first, whether it's only for two pieces of gyprock or to put in the BM for a $20G job.
One hand washes the other....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
I have a problem with it.
Everybody says they want better lumber but no one wants to pay for it.
I get complaints about the quality of lumber in our trusses from time to time. Sometimes I ask the complainer how much more they would have been willing to pay for trusses that are better quality. The answer is always the same - NOTHING.
If customers don't want to pay for quality lumber, why would you think yards would have it?
While I don't agree with you about the lumber, the attitude of the employee certainly wasn't good. But that's a different subject altogether...
"I want either less corruption, or more chance to participate in it." [Ashleigh Brilliant]
Wrong..if Iam paying full price for lumber or anything for that matter I want what Iam paying for not crap.
forget that its lumber and say your buying a tv and they hand you the one off the shelf thats been a display no box no manual scratches been on for 12 hrs a day for 3 months etc. theres a new one on the shelf NIB but the retailer insists you take the display at full price and no discount because its in front of the others.I think you would walk out..I know i would
why should we pay full price for crap. if iam buying new i want new,if iam buying lumber why should i buy the junk lumber.why would i buy it if i cant use it? the yard is going to send the crappy stuff back to their source anyway.
Ive run in to that from time to time. guy in the yard trying to pawn off the crap thinking your some rube that does'nt know the differance.
sometimes I'll take the crap lumber(if i can cut a few good pieces out of it) for concrete forms,blocking etc. but never at full price. I tell the order desk guy and he gives me a nice discount or free,nobody else is going to buy it except maybe a DIY'er that does'nt know the diff.
"Wrong..if Iam paying full price for lumber...I want what I am paying for not crap.
What's "full price"? Do you assume all lumber is the same?
Take your TV thing for instance. If TVs were only bought based on price, the screens would keep getting smaller and smaller. Quality would decrease as manufacturers and retailers found more and more ways to cut corners.
This may sound ridiculous, but that's how lumber is sold. Quality means almost nothing to most people who buy lumber. They shop around for the cheapest price only. So lumberyards seek out the cheapest lumber from their brokers. And the brokers have to seek out the cheapest lumber from the mills.
Given a system like that, why would you think you could buy good quality lumber? Buying quality has to be a lot more than just talk. People have to vote with their wallets, and they simply aren't doing that."The road to success is lined with many tempting parking spaces."
Boss,
I gotta agree with you on this one.
we are using second growth (and it's called second growth if it's the third fourth or fifth cutting) timber and the wood grows so qickly that it's gonna be be crap.. don't blame the lumberyards.. and if it's not crap now by the time it's erected it may well be crap. take those 4x4's that he found that were so striaght. set them on the ground over the weekend and then look at them..
crap..
If you want your eyes to open, drop a plumb bob on posts that have been used to build a deck that is a couple of years old.. or snap a stringline (OK so I'm old fashioned a lazer will tell you the same thing..)
you better learn how to build with low grade lumber because less than 2% of the nations forests are old growth stuff.
In the time he spent sorting I could easily accomidate the warp or twist. If the board is a little waney I'm certain there is a place where you can put the board where the wane either gets cut off or hidden.
In the time he spent sorting I could easily accomidate the warp or twist. If the board is a little waney I'm certain there is a place where you can put the board where the wane either gets cut off or hidden.
Gee, Frenchy, what a smart guy you are, that's a pretty good observation.........
It took all but 5 minutes to pick them.
Maybe you can find a place where you can build a deck with a 4x4 with a one inch crown in it but not me. How can that be hidden?
Look from where I'm from I don't put up boards like you say that have warps, twists or waves in them. So I'll build a nice straight deck and you can use whatever crap wavey twisted warped board you want and I'll be happy and you'll be happy.
Joe Carola
Joe,
wood is a fluid medium, it moves.. it expands in the sun and shrinks in the cold.. get it wet and it moves evan more.. I watched an oldtimer build a wood boat and he started with some nasty loopking wood.
when finished it was a beautifull masterpiece that anyone would be proud to own..
I doubt it took 5 minutes to sort, I mean you had to confront the lumberyard employee and all that plus go get a pair of snips etc..
But If you feel that there should be a certain standard of wood then you are entitled to your opinion. The fact that you rejected so many before you found some acceptable to you indicates that either you are shopping at the wrong place or you have other issues..
remember the trees that the wood came from aren't eaxactly straight..
I don't know if Joe is being unreasonable in his expectations but I do know that I have found twenty or more pieces on top of a pile that were completely unacceptable. The reason was that there were the worst pieces of an entire unit that had been picked over, maybe some from a previous unit. Not only should Joe be able to open a new unit, but he should not have to search through a pile of culls in the first place.
We all can find a place to use the worst boards if we have a big enough job and if we are given a big enough pile which hasn't been picked over, but a lot of the value of our experience is knowing when to use those lousy boards and when to use the best board that we can find. I use those 1" crown and twisted 4x4's under the deck. I have enough left over to keep the boatbuilder in wood for the rest of his life.
That's certainly true.
"I've been on this forum for a year now and I can't think of anyone here that would use a 4x4 for a deck that's shaped like a Banana or has splits in it or chips in it."
That is what I said in one of my posts above. Now I've just been proved wrong.
wood is a fluid medium, it moves.. it expands in the sun and shrinks in the cold.. get it wet and it moves evan more..
remember the trees that the wood came from aren't eaxactly straight..
Frenchy, I don't need an meaningless essay on wood. You've obviously missed the point of this thread. I'll say it one more time and read it slowly.
I PICKED OUT STRAIGHT 4X4'S FROM A PILE IN A LUMBER YARD FOR RAILINGS ON A DECK THAT I WAS BUILDING THAT WAS A FINISHED PRODUCT!
I could care less about wood being a fluid medium, it moves and all that crap.......
Frenchy, let's move onto another thread.
Joe Carola
can't believe how much crap you took for picking out good wood.
Ok people, anyone here that objected to Joe's little rant, Have you yourself not selected the best wood you could find for a certain project of part of a project?
Geeezzz....
Let the guy blow some steam...
can't believe how much crap you took for picking out good wood.
I amazing Isn't it.......... Shame on me for taking time too pick out good material to do a quality job. Like I said befor I didn't think there was anyone on this forum that would use such garbage for a project but I guess there is and if they can't take 5 minutes or 10 minutes out of there time to pick good material they must think that those minutes will make them go broke.
Cag, I don't mean this towards you but I really don't have to explain myself to anyone but I really didn't think that people here wouldn't pick out bad material for a job, I'm surprised. It's not like I go to the lumberyard every day and do it. It was a lumberyard that was down the shore where I framed a house that I never use and I went to pick up 4x4's and the stuff on the top was garbage plain and simple.
I'm a framing contractor and of corse there's lumber that wont be seen but even with that thought you can't use lumber with BIG crowns in them for any part of the frame because you'll see big humps in the floor, sheetrock and roof so you just toss them aside and cut them up for small pieces.
What George R said was a complete joke and it's not even worth responding too.
I guess there's quality contractors and ones that just slap it up and hope too get paid no matter how it looks.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/22/2003 6:57:23 AM ET by Framer
Edited 10/22/2003 7:28:28 AM ET by Framer
What this shows is that there are people on this forum that are willing to turn any subject into an argument..........
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Your Right!
Joe Carola
No he isn't!
Yes there is...
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
No he isn't!
Alright Jim, I said to him"Your Right" you said to me "No he isn't"
Are we going somewhere with this or do we just let this thread drop?
Joe Carola
Well, he said "it only goes to show that some folks here will disagree with anything" (or something like that), right? Then you agreed with him. Then I disagreed with you. Because I hardly ever see people disagreeing here at Breaktime, even though the best discussions usually revolve around differing points of view, and I'm glad we have them.
But the long and the short of it is that I disagree not only with what you said in agreement, I disagree with what Svenny said about people here disagreeing. And while we're at it, I disagree with IMERC, who disagreed with me.
But no hard feelings, Joe, agreed?
Agreed, I still love Ya! ;-)
Joe Carola
I just have to say that every time I REALLY need it to be good stuff, I say so at the order desk, and mention that I will pay the extra if needed. That makes the point and they pick the good stuff out and I give me the final 'yay or nay' at no extra cost! Oh yeah, I don't buy lumber at the big box stores. :)
I would agree to disagree, were it not for the fact that I once resolved to disagree with you on everything. On that I hope we agree, however, do not misunderstand this to mean that I would, in fact, ever agree with you about anything, at any time, in the the future. Agreed?
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Some folks can be so loveably, agreeably disagreeable, while others can be terribly disagreeable while they are agreeing with you. I have even seen fights begun over the fact that the two parties agreed with oner another.
Dis is an agreeable continueumn for such a disagreeable thread..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I think that we can all agree that there can be disagreements and arguments when it comes to talking about Religion, Racism and Politics.
I really didn't think that there would be any arguments or disagreements with picking out good lumber for posts on a deck.
Well enough said.
Joe Carola
Yes, this is quite egregious.
"Aunt Tilly"! hahahahahahahaha...man oh man, I don't know if any two words can make me grin quicker than those two Don...wait...is "pay day" one word or two?
Depends on the size of your check.
Jim, If you are tryin to start somtin I am a gonna have to send aunt Tilly over an have 'er sit on ya till you fech up some manners.
Frenchy,
I watched an oldtimer build a wood boat and he started with some nasty loopking wood.
That loopking wood is just what is needed for the building of boats. Or propellers, or tobogans,
But it ain't for decks. Stands out like a sore thumb. Crooked is crooked, crap is crap.
They charge just as much for crap if you're willing to accept it.
Joe H
It's easier to just nail down straight wood and have it come out straight, but it only takes a moment to straighten the wood prior to putting it in place.
You can stand there and sort but since wood doesn't grow straight you will find the majority of wood isn't lazer straight, or you can learn to put it down straight.
There is a world of differance between just slapping it up and putting it up staright, the condition of the wood isn't the determining factor..
One final point, we may be talking apples and oranges here.. I see contractors reject wood for trival bow or warp. nice long 16 foot boards. ones that are easy to put into a straight condition.
If that's what you are speaking of then we do have a major differance of opinion. On the other hand there are boards that are only good for cribbing or firewood. I'll give you the benefit of doubt and assume it's the later and not the former..
Just for information when I went to lumber yards back in the early 50's there was always someone complaining about how crooked the wood was. Nothing new..
Edited 10/22/2003 11:53:08 AM ET by frenchy
Framer,
Here is why the sorting issue touches my hot spot.
I spend a lot of time at a sawmill.
I see wood that goes to waste or becomes a pallet simply because it has cosmetic defects. not all over the board but on a few spots..
50% of a tree remains in the forest as scrap, branches twigs etc..the remaining portion, the boll is used as follows, roughly 30% of the tree becomes waste from slab wood and sawdust much of the rest of the wood is sorted and graded. Much of the wood is #2 or #3 Less than 10% of the wood becomes FAS (the top grade)
boards that are 8 feet long and will be cut into small pieces to make furniture (where it is very easy to cut out defects) become pallet wood simply because a knot that falls inside of the area.
If you go to a hardwood store with great wood and no "crap" there still will be boards that are rejected not because they can't be used but because the buyer can get "perfect" wood for the same price..
Tell me, have you ever made furniture? If so you know how seldom you use all of a 8 foot board. and if you did use perfect wood the piece will simply have no charcter, no soul.. it will look plastic.
My point is that so much of a tree goes to waste..Waste not want not! I believe it deeply and it matters not if it's my waste or others waste. Waste is waste! If poor handling causes perfectly good wood to warp or bend or have some other minor defect that is easily corrected there are two choices here,
You could ignore it and let others worry. or you can do what you can..
I do know that here in America there is less than 2% of old growth forests left, the rest is second growth or worse, wood that is plantation grown.
the faster we use the wood up the worse the problem will become..
I went to the lumber yard yesterday to pick up 5 - 4x4x10's for the posts for the railings of a deck that I'm building on a house that I framed this summer.
Boss, that was my first sentence of this thread. I'm building a deck and these are the posts for the railings. These have to be good, they cant be bowed, crowned , s-shaped, chunks missing out of them, they have to be Perfect.
I don't think that there is anyone on this forum that would build a deck and use GARBAGE posts for their railings including you.
When I frame a house I order 20-50 thousand dollars worth of material and have it delivered without checking it and during the framing process we through all the junk aside and cut it up and use it for fire blocking, squash blocks etc......
What I'm talking about here is going to the yard for something that will be used for a finished product, something exposed. When we trim the exterior of a house or addition and some of the pieces are no good I'll go to the lumber yard and pick them out myself. I can't install Rakes , Fascias, soffits Freeze Borads, corner boards that are in bad shape.
Everybody says they want better lumber but no one wants to pay for it.
I pay whatever they tell me the lumber costs and if I want to use my time picking through it that's fine with me and the job will get done right and no customer or builder or GC will tell me to rip the bad piece of material off.
Joe Carola
I guess I'm spoiled.
My local yard expects me to pick out the lumber. The yard hands always offer to help and load, but are quick to suggest that I pick the quality I want.
One time, the yard hand wouldn't let me pick from the pile, said they were all bad and sent me across the road to get the premium quality were he knew they were good. Charged me the same price.
Sometimes when I order a load of wood, I say it needs to be good (for a roof or something) and the last 2 times I asked, they sent out twice what I ordered, and told me to keep the extra. Surprised the hell out of me.
Last order of 2 x 8 x 20's, 18 were almost perfect and I didn't even ask.
I pay more at this yard, but service is worth it.
Jeff
Yeah, I (almost) always pick out my own sticks. When I'm working far enough from home to use a new yard for materials I always make sure the person who writes the order knows I need to select my own stuff and that I'm willing to pay extra for that, if that's what it takes. If I ever came to a yard that wouldn't allow that, I'd have to go somewhere else.
The other thing I haven't heard mentioned yet in this discussion though, is that I don't believe in returning stuff that I select. I take responsibility for what I select, and how many pieces I take. Can't have it both ways. Fair is fair.
Every once in a while I'll order a unit of something and feel justified returning something, like finger jointed studs that came apart, or are misaligned, but that knid of thing only happens once every few years or so.
You could try running a yard where every customer pays for #2 and sniffs through every board to find #1 quality pieces. You buy a grade where the average quality is the average quality you need. Some are better, some worse. You buy from the top of the pile. Know the specs for the grade you're buying. If it doesn't meet those specs, toss it aside. If it does, you take it. If you need #1 KD, buy it. If you can use #3 SD and want to save the money, use it. If the lumber your yard sells does not match the grade stamp, tell them. If they want your business, they'll correct it. If not, buy elsewhere. If there's a stack of lumber with lots of warped garbage on top, I don't want any of it. Not from the top or the bottom. All will look the same eventually.
Bob,
Thanks for the responce but it has nothing do do with grade #1 #2 #3 or lumber yard policy.
The bottom line is I was building a deck and I needed the 4x4 post for the railings A FINISHED PRODUCTand what I saw was GARBAGE plain and simple. I could care less what any policy or yard worker or the owner of the lumber yard says, I will not ever put garbage up on anyones job, some contractors I know will and then the homwowner will go back and tell the contractor to rip it out or they don't get paid, so I will shift through the pile and pick out what I want on every job I do need be.
You can specify what grade your using in a contract but do you also specify that it's acceptable if the posts can look like bananas and they can be split and chipped?
I've been on this forum for a year now and I can't think of anyone here that would use a 4x4 for a deck that's shaped like a Banana or has splits in it or chips in it.
For me I would go somewhere else to get the material until I find what I want but for this situation it right there under the 20 garbage pieces that I went threw and stacked neatly aside.
Bob, just wanted to add that some contractors will say that "Well we had to get the job done and that's all the material they had". So what there doing is saying it's more important to get the job done with whatever material is there GARBAGE instead of doing a quality job and every time someone looks at the deck they will say"What the hell kind of contractor did this job".
For me it's more about the quality of the job. I've seen decks that were built the day after where let's say for example you have a 37' deck like I just built, when I looked down at the ralings the post were in and out like a snake. How could that be, they probably plumbed every post. What I do is I bolt in my two end posts plumb and then string a mason line across from one end to the other and then I'll bring the rest of the posts to the mason line.
I'ts like straightening walls, I plumb all the corners and then nail a small block on the outside of the top plates and use a mason line and set the rest of the wall to that line with a piece of 5/4.
Joe Carola
Edited 10/21/2003 7:32:13 AM ET by Framer
Edited 10/21/2003 8:04:10 AM ET by Framer
Its yards like the one you mentioned that will take steel framing into the future.
Its becoming more and more cost prohibitive to cull your lumber due to the time it takes. Ive had lumber delivered that i would find 1 in 8 boards that i can use. Its really really making me go ICF and steel framing with a wood stud here and there.
With the kiln operators trying to meet volume drying schedules for the long term the RMC is way off making even good lumber bad.
If a yard wont let you cull on site, then its probably wise to find another yard. Vote with your dollar, its the best say builders have anymore.
Framer ---
Consider this:
I can order clear Western Red Cedar 4x4s for $7.75/bdft.
I can sometimes find a clear Western Red Cedar 4x4 in the 4x4x8 posts at Lowe's where the price is $1.50/bdft.
When I find a suitable post at Lowe's I pay them the same $7.75/bdft. I ask Sheryl to give 4 free posts to the next person who buys in quantity without picking.
As I understand grading rules ...
5% of the lumber is allowed to be below grade. If you take all of the above grade wood, some one is left with building with a set of boards that while marked to grade are below grade. Your actions can lead to unsafe structures, and you should stop.
If you take all of the above grade wood, some one is left with building with a set of boards that while marked to grade are below grade. Your actions can lead to unsafe structures, and you should stop.
George, You have got to be kidding me.
Joe Carola
"Your actions can lead to unsafe structures, and you should stop. "
I gotta butt in here, if you don't mind. I don't know if Joe plans to waste anymore time in this thread or not, but this statement of yours is pure BS. Paying that extra price for a piece out of the common stock is too. I doubt anyone gets free lumber from your generousity. You just reward Lowes for their stupidity.
But the comment quoted above is laughable. To put it in context;
If you are dining out and the food you are served smells and tastes bad, and you send it back, are you causing the next diner a risk of eating it and coming down with food poisoning? If the waitress says that the owner of the restaurant tells her that you have to eat it, do you shovel it down?
If you purchase a set of new tires for your vehicle and notice a day later that there is a blister bubble in the sidewall of one of them, would you be causing someone else to have a possible accident if you take it back and demand that it be changed? How would you react if the guy who mounted it says that the store owner was demanding that you drive on it instead of getting a good one?
If you went to the pet store with your grand-daughter to buy some exotic fish or even plain old goldfish, would you expect to let her select which ones to take home, or would you let the sales clerk force you to take the first ones that came into the dipnet? Wou;ld you worry about the next little girl coming into the store not getting the one SHE wanted because you already had bought it?
Same Same.
Excellence is its own reward!