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Discussion Forum

Lvl’s in an old home

Dan612 | Posted in General Discussion on January 28, 2008 02:56am

I have a few questions about LVL’s.  Let me try to paint a picture of my newest nightmare. . .   I am working on an old house that the second floor was drasticlly underframed (4″x5″ joists, 42″ on center).  The joists run 15’4″  As you might guess, the floor sagged over time.  Due to room having a low ceiling anyway, and using 8″ LVL’s will drop the finish ceiling into the windows, I am trying to figure out what to do.  My proposed plan is to use 6″ micro-lams with metal bridging to help divide up the load.  I know this isn’t the ideal solution, but I don’t see a lot of other options.  The space above the ceiling is a guest bedroom, and no other load bearing walls are above the ceiling.  Will dropping the spacing from 16″ to 12″ solve any problems or just hit the budget that much more?

 

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Replies

  1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 03:22am | #1

    Why can't you pull the floor up and sit the new joists on the plates? 

     

    Woods favorite carpenter

     

    1. Dan612 | Jan 28, 2008 03:28am | #2

      The house is an old timber frame with the original joists pocketed into the girt, or plate.  So the new joists would cause a step up in that room. 

      1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 03:37am | #3

        Wouldn't it just raise the floor,  not sure what you mean by a step up in the floor. 

         Woods favorite carpenter

         

        1. User avater
          EricPaulson | Jan 28, 2008 03:50am | #5

          Sound to me as though his efforts are isolated to the room in question, that which he described as a guest room in the original post.

          Thus, that would account for his description of a "step up" into the room.

          Eric[email protected]

           

           

           

           

          1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 03:59am | #6

            I must be missing something (thats not uncommon),  there is a guest room above.  Why can't that floor be raise 1-2" and 1-2" below the original joists give him enough depth for a 2x10 floor joist. 

            Ledger on each wall and hangers for the joist ends,  sister any that you can. 

            I can understand wanting to isolate issues to one area.  Woods favorite carpenter

             

          2. User avater
            EricPaulson | Jan 28, 2008 04:04am | #7

            The space above the ceiling is a guest bedroom,[email protected]

             

             

             

             

          3. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 04:21am | #8

            Tell the guests to leave,  the floors gonna be gone by noon.  ;) 

            I am not sure if I would spend all that money in gluelams to save what is more than likely an old plank floor. 

             

             

             Woods favorite carpenter

             

  2. User avater
    McDesign | Jan 28, 2008 03:48am | #4

    FIL's house was like that true 2x6 24" OC; and no headroom to be had downstairs.  I used 2x8s, 8" OC (in addition to the originals), and it's been fine for 20 years - even with some walls and a tile bathroom above now.

    Forrest

    1. Dan612 | Jan 28, 2008 04:27am | #9

      Thank you all for the replies.  My question is about the LVL's.  From the information that I have taken from the web is that lvl's will work, but the spec's say that a 7 and 1/4 lvl will be the one to use.  Unfortuneatly, I just don't have the room.  Raising the floor upstairs would be a huge hassle, and dropping the ceiling would bring the ceilings into the windows.  I am curious if smaller lvl's with metal bridging will stiffen things up, or is the strength in the depth of the lvl's.  I am a timberframer by trade, so lvl's are a little foreign to me. 

      1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 04:34am | #10

        Any way to cut a beam in mid span of the joists.  Perindicular to the joists. 

        You'll need bearing at both ends of the more than likely steel I beam. 

        This way you can straighten it,  then reframe it. 

         Woods favorite carpenter

         

        1. Dan612 | Jan 28, 2008 04:40am | #13

          A steel I-beam is a no go.  Putting one in perpendicular to the joists at mid span runs me right into a chimney. 

          1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 04:46am | #14

            This keeps getting better by the post. 

            I'm about out of hair brained ideas,  gluelams and LVLs are expensive.  Just throwing some ideas at you to save a few bucks. 

            The upstairs floor doesn't stand much of chance after you straghten this thing out. 

            I'd think 6x6's might be another option.  12" OC that'll hold. 

             Woods favorite carpenter

             

          2. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jan 28, 2008 07:51am | #19

            "Putting one in perpendicular to the joists at mid span runs me right into a chimney"

            header off the chimney.

             

            anyways ... what did the PE say?

            from the sounds of it .... that's where this should start

             

            especially since yer looking for answers via the internet.

            Jeff    Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          3. Dan612 | Jan 28, 2008 03:59pm | #21

            As far as the PE is goes, there isn't one.  This project is in my own house, so instead of a PE, I have my wife to deal with.  Actually, I wouldn't have it any other way.  Any woman who helps pull down the old plaster and lath, help with clean-up, load truck for the dump runs and then cook a fantastic dinner is the one for me.

            Running an I-beam off center of the chimney isn't going to work very well either.  The chimney stack is about 6 feet wide, making the I-beam about four feet from either wall. 

          4. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 28, 2008 05:49pm | #22

            "Running an I-beam off center of the chimney isn't going to work very well either. The chimney stack is about 6 feet wide, making the I-beam about four feet from either wall."

            How about 2 beams - One on each side of the chimney?
            Bumpersticker: If this car is being driven courteously it's been stolen.

          5. rez | Jan 28, 2008 09:25pm | #23

            yep, that was my first thought then saw yer post.

             

             

            be balanced, be symentrical, be an artist, be Mr.T! 

             

            Peaceful,easy feelin'.

          6. User avater
            JeffBuck | Jan 29, 2008 01:58am | #24

            I'm not sure what your wife pulling down plaster has top do with anything ...

            but I was talking about getting an engineer in to design a beam.

             

            more so ... have an engineer design a header around the FP so U can run the steel.

             

             

            "Running an I-beam off center of the chimney isn't going to work very well either. "

            for a guy with questions ... U sure seem to already have all the answers!

             

            have fun.

            Jeff

                 Buck Construction

             Artistry In Carpentry

                 Pittsburgh Pa

          7. Dan612 | Jan 29, 2008 02:34am | #25

            I spoke with an engineer today.  He had this for a solution.  By doubling up 6" lvls, putting them 12" OC, the numbers will (almost) work.  If the span is 15'3", everything would meet code.  At 15'4", things wouldn't pass code.  He also gave me a fastening schedule for doubling the lvl's together with nails that will stiffin things up.  Now, the hard part of installing them is ahead.  Thanks to one and all for the suggestions.

          8. notagain | Jan 29, 2008 03:12am | #26

            How 'bout specing one of these?http://www.betterheader.com/I used a 13' with double lvl's and a 1" steel plate between them.You might be able to find one that'll work for you. Rod

          9. User avater
            BossHog | Jan 29, 2008 04:25pm | #27

            A while back I did a thread on floor vibration that you might want to check out. http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=21010.1Engineer or not, I think this guy is wrong. A floor that long and shallow just isn't a good idea.
            Wouldn't it be nice if the wattage of a car stereo could not exceed the IQ of the driver?

      2. Dan612 | Jan 28, 2008 04:35am | #11

        The reaosn for lvl's is that the floor has a 7 and 1/2 inch sag from the edge of the room to the center.  Have you ever seen 6 inches of shims under the post of a bed?

        1. MattSwanger | Jan 28, 2008 04:37am | #12

          It does need to be fixed,  6 inches of slope would give the feeling of walking up and downhill. 

           Woods favorite carpenter

           

      3. User avater
        BossHog | Jan 28, 2008 05:03am | #15

        No way will 6" (or even 7 1/4") LVLs span 15'.If you're getting into a window, how about framing with deeper joists, but leaving a "cutout" where the window is?
        Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?

  3. RalphWicklund | Jan 28, 2008 05:14am | #16

    What I'm going to suggest would need to have the numbers run by an engineer who can calculate the tension resistance and deflection characteristics of a composite joist made up of a solid length of dimensional lumber, such as a 2x6 or 4x6, ripped to match the depth of the current joists AND a with CONTINUOUS metal strap running the length of the bottom of each joist and nailed off at appropriate intervals.

    Perhaps even constructed with a slight built-in camber if the joist would tend to deflect under load.

    Some time in the past, Junkhound posted a similar fix for an undersized, sagging garage door header, using a single strip of steel lagged to the underside of the header. The resistance to sag because of the inelasticity of the steel was tremendous.

    We routinely use metal straps on tension connections, primarily for uplift, but also for horizontal applicatons such as joining single top plates or across headers that are placed flush with the top of the top plate.

    Run the numbers for the addition of two joists between each of the existing, about 14" o.c.

     

  4. Piffin | Jan 28, 2008 06:16am | #17

    I have a good used anti-gravity machine that can keep those joists from sagging any further, but I don't know if it will straiten things out or not. You might need to buy or rent a Vizilazor for that

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      McDesign | Jan 28, 2008 03:31pm | #20

      <You might need to buy or rent a Vizilazor for that>

      Yep, and a Neuralizer (from Men in Black).

      Forrest - absitively posilutely

  5. rez | Jan 28, 2008 07:39am | #18

    Can you run a verticle support beam off center to a side of the chimney to split the length of the horizontal, running the verticle to the floor of the cellar?

     

     

    Peaceful,
    easy feelin'.

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