Greetings
My name is Jasen Coen, I work with Tim Uhler( or does he work with me?) Anyway we had a discussion the other day about Commercial carpenters and Residential carpenters and which area takes more skill, Commercial or residential.
My background is 50% residential 50% commercial and Tims is 100% residential
I’m not going to say which side Tim or I was on( you guys can probably figure it out) So without any more pontification, What do the masses have to say?
Replies
yes, carpentry, done correctly, requires skill.
bobl Volo, non valeo
Metal studs versus wood? Framing only, or framing & finish?
Good carpentry is good carpentry.
jas
I've got commercial, residential and civil carpentry experience and from that background I can definately say that a good carpenter has lots of skills.
SamT
Quality construction is quality construction, if you're going to do either well, I don't think one takes more skill then the next.
After saying that, I've noticed higher quality in the trim and finish of residential over commercial.
The discussion we had revolved around whether the average high end residential framer (high end being 750k and up and including stick framing roofs) had more skill than the average guy who works commercial. I don't recall us talking about carpenters.
From the guys I've talked to who've done residential and commercial, it seems that as a residential (high end, not cookie cutter houses) framer you are required to take more responsibility than the average commercial guy.
For instance on my jobsite, I study the plans (but any one of the guys could), draw the roof (we stick everything), figure the roof package (lengths, structural ridges, hips,valleys, etc.). It's my job (or whoever is in charge on that jobsite) to understand the plans and be able to organize and run the crew, schedule material drops and sometimes schedule in the other trades. We have deadlines to meet and often times we have to think of the HVAC, plumbing, electrical and trim guys as we are framing because our blueprints don't always have the necessary info on them.
The house we are framing now is an 8-12 & 10-12 irregular roof with 3 different wall heights on the first floor (5 or more if you count some of the garage walls). This is not an easy roof to figure and frame correctly, and efficiently.
My contention is that the average commercial guy is not required to wear as many hats. He is not a crew foreman, he does not have to make sure his blueprints are accurate before he starts framing. Much of the legwork on commercial jobs is already figured and he follows the directions he is given.
I've worked with some guys who had a commercial background. They had a hard time crossing over to residential. It required more hustle and a more acute understanding of what they were doing. Especially in our area where codes are becoming tougher and siesmic requirements require a better understanding of what you are doing and why you are doing it.
On our jobsite, we have to be proficient at foundations, some flatwork, framing, siding, etc. We have to be able to do it well and efficiently because there generally isn't as much cushion to make a decent living.
This is all basically a moot issue, it's just one of those jobsite "conversations".
My personal feeling is that for the houses we frame, it takes a higher and more diversified skill level than is seen on commercial jobsites or even some of the other high end residential in our area. The average commercial framer at 25 isn't going to have as much responsibility as you can have in residential at 25.
I think industrial form carpenter takes the most skill, You got to work backwards, all the foundation are on the inside.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
Most resiential construction is done on time and material whereas commercial seems to be more piecework, square or linear foot charge. So the guy laying 400 feet of baseboard wants to increase his per hour earnings by not putting as much detail into his joints, etc. Commercial application usually use less expensive materials as well.
A commercial carpenter(I know that lable is thrown around loosely) Is reqiured to be able to do Concrete, frameing(steel &wood) Finish work and all the other very complicated hardware( panic bars, door closers ect) I know nobody knows it all but a good carpenter worth his salt, will be able to almost anything that is thrown at him, with the help of his forman or work mates. That beeing said( I hope not too poorly) I think it's a wash. Just to be clear I'm not talking about foremans.
My reply is not as big as Timmy's because he types like he talks really fast, but I type like I talk s l o w :^)
Can the avg commercial guy do panic and all the other complicated hardware?
itakerealissuewithyousayingitalkfastidon'ttalkfastijustthinkfastsotherehahahahahahaahahahahaahahahha
"itakerealissuewithyousayingitalkfastidon'ttalkfastijustthinkfastsotherehahahahahahaahahahahaahahahha"
If you'd type that slower we wouldn't have so much trouble reading it. I don't read very fast.Save a tree. Wipe yer butt with a spotted owl. (Beak side down)
That was the joke :-)
I think the biggest problem with commercial is trying to drive a nail into those studs without bending the nail.........Base is probably a little faster cause they usually roll it out and glue it, and just how the heck am I supposed to get this 12' piece of sheetrock in that elevator?
Just pullin yer leg..............
It really depends on what type of carpentry you are talking about. I've seen some absolutely beautiful finish work in both commercial and residential.
I think you have a little less restrictions in residential add-ons than in commercial.
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
don't know as to residential vs commercial ...
but I will say remodeling takes the most skills.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I think Jeff is right.
and I forgot to add...
what ever I'm doing at any particular moment in time is twice as hard and exacting as anything anyone else on site is doing!
..... along those same lines ...
an oldie but a goodie from when I used to play tennis-to-the-death against my buddy Mark ... when he'd skim one right across the top of the net ... and I'd try a similar return but hit the net ....
"yeah ... but the net's higher on MY side a-hole!......"
feel free to adapt that well reasoned excuse to your everyday life....
Like ...
"of course I'M sweating more ... I'M carrying the heavy end ...."
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You are comparing a top of the line residential Carpenter/Foreman to an average commercial carp??!!
I think you BOTH already know the answer to that one!
I have worked with Carpenters and even Laborers in BOTH venues that I would put up against anyone.
I have also worked with ones I would not let sweep the floor.
Any good worker is one who can do what it takes to get it done.
I DO agree with Jeff tho, Remodeling (done well) Demands the most skills.
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
That's why the issue is moot. I was never comparing an avg residential framer. I was always talking about guys doing high end residential.
Well done remodeling takes a lot of skill and patience. Period restoration with a modern addition to blend takes even more skill than anything else, ever. Period. You all can argue all you want but I will not hear you. Therefore I am the greatest that ever lived and that is all there is to that!Hand Hewn Restorations Inc.
Restoring the past for the future.
Yer Hired!
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Commercial jobs generally have higher paid architects involved. I'll just leave it at that...
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
so you don't work commercial??
he he he
I think the major downfall of the trades is specialization whether in commercial or residential, I think that a commercial carpenter interested in learning will find as many things to learn and gather as many skills(not necessarily the same ones) as an ambitious residential carpenter. You'll find commercial 'carpenters' who steel stud frame and rock the same walls day after day and I'm sure there are framers who work on the same style of tract home for years and couldn't install a door or cabinet if their life depended on it. I like residential and commercial work, and am trying to learn as much carpentry as I can as well masonry, eletrical, etc... except plumbing(something about drain pipes and toilets just doesn't do it for me).
-Ray
If you ever build a slab on grade you going to need to know plumbing so you can get your elevation right for the forms.
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
except plumbing(something about drain pipes and toilets just doesn't do it for me).
Don't even go there, today I was demoing a bath in a house that pre-dates this centruy, last time this bath was remodeled had to be the 50's based on the fixtures. Pulled the toliet, old heavy bastard, stunk to high heaven and I left my plumbing box at home so no plug for the drain... nasty... and a rag just wasn't doing it.
The whole thing is a mess... everything from the walls to the framing is just fubar.