Main lug/breaker subpanel on detached
I found a lovely QO main lug panel at the Resource Store for just 25 bucks, full of breakers, that i intended to use for my new, detached garage/shop i’m building. Then i got to reading…
Some people say a detached bldg HAS to have a main breaker subpanel, though others use main lug panels in the detached-bldg mode. I frankly can’t see any advantage to a main breaker subpanel if the feed is protected with a breaker back at the service entrance, so i’m sure i need to be schooled.
This won’t be a full-on woodshop, just a place to store stuff and work on infernal combustion engines out of the rain. A Hobart 125 EZ welder Santa has instructions to bring me will be the biggest load. I’ll put in a 220 outlet just because.
I’m planning to put a 60 amp breaker in the house’s box, then come off it with #6 conductors and ground in conduit, if that has any bearing on the lug/breaker issue. I know about unbonding ground and neutral bars, separate ground (will be Ufer) at the subpanel, and have most all the tricky parts sussed out, but this one question has me stumped before i can proceed with anything except digging a trench between the buildings.
If i HAVE to have a main breaker subpanel, can i backfeed a 60(?) amp breaker in my QO main lug subpanel, clamp it down, label it, and proceed with caution?
No inspection here; i just want to be safe and look like i about half-way know what i’m doing.
Replies
No inspection here; i just want to be safe
You are safe*.......just feeding the main lugs is safe, also backfeed of a breaker used as a main is safe if you want to be able to turn everything off at once.
Labels always a good idea.
My barn, pumphouse and another shed all have separate feeds from the main panel or other sub-panels from the house, then inter-tied between the sheds/barn/pumphouse with backfed breakers in each outbuilding.
BIG bright yellow Caution labels on each panel with information about being fed from different branch circuits....
No idea what 2008 code says, 1980 code OK.............
*at least 'safer' than my buried old extention cords with roofing tar over the breaks feeding one of my loads <G>
You need a disconnect within sight of the panel, as I understand it. This could either be a separate disconnect (which I'm not sure would need to be fused/breakered) or a backfed breaker (which must be locked down and properly labeled).
Thanks, JH and Dan. I mostly needed to determine if i can use this quality QO panel w/breakers i got just a deal on, and it appears i can. Yippee! Any idea why some folks insist a main breaker panel be used? I read some apparently knowledgeable folks on electrical info boards who affirmed a subpanel with a 100 amp breaker could be used as a switch, downstream of a 60 amp breaker in the service entrance. That seemed somehow "misleading" = "bad" to me.
It might be misleading, but since you have the current limited at the source there is no safety problem.That is done all the time..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Some of the rules with regard to true "main" panels are "legislated" by the POCOs, rather than the code and inspectors. And the rules for subpanels in detached buildings have changed a bit in the past few years. So plenty of room for confusion.In your case you mainly want to be safe. This involves primarily two factors:1) The feed (and panel itself) must be protected by an appropriate overcurrent device (breaker).2) There needs to be a reliable (and reasonably convenient) disconnect near the panel (ideally within sight), so that the panel can be de-energized with confidence that someone in another building won't throw a breaker and re-energize it unexpectedly.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"Some of the rules with regard to true "main" panels are "legislated" by the POCOs, rather than the code and inspectors."
Actually, even main panels are never "legislated" by the POCO. The POCO has NO say after the meter. Unless of course an area has some strange local codes.
"There needs to be a reliable (and reasonably convenient) disconnect near the panel (ideally within sight),..."
Not so. The disconnect needs to be "installed either inside or outside of the building or structure served or where the conductors pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall be at a readily accessible location nearest the point of entrance of the conductors."
There is NO requirement as to proximity to the panel.
No, true.While the POCO can't enforce "code" they can also not hookup the service.I have heard in more than one case that in areas where there is no code enforcement that the people have said that the POCO inspects the main panel before making the connections..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
"I have heard in more than one case that in areas where there is no code enforcement that the people have said that the POCO inspects the main panel before making the connections."
Well then there obviously IS code enforcement, and it is also obviously a purely local thing.
You say this, and I believe you, but I have NEVER heard of the POCO being the AHJ.
I have NEVER heard of the POCO being the AHJ.
Fill out your profile, where are you?
Just cuz you haven't heard of of it don't mean it ain't so.
Out in the boonies the POCO is the boss, if they don't like it you're not getting power.
Joe H
<<so that the panel can be de-energized with confidence that someone in another building won't throw a breaker and re-energize it unexpectedly>>Ah, now there's a decebt reason for the proximity between disconnect and the panel!
It's the main reason for the "within sight" rule for many forms of disconnects. If a disconnect isn't within sight it should be lockable in some fashion (and locks should be used), if there is the slightest chance of some dipstick coming along and flipping the disconnect on.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
It's smart in commercial use, of course, though i can see why the exception to the rule for residential use. When i'm working on electrical stuff, i always make sure the other nitwits in the area know it, if i'm not by myself.It still seems odd to me to use a breaker primarily as a switch instead of primarily as overload protection.
Once you get it set up, the circuits you have your equipment on will all probably be less than 60 amp.
This should help decrease the number times your feed breaker will trip.
This shop won't present that tripping problem i had before since it'll be primarily used for storage and mechanicking, while my woodshop proper is already on a 200 amp panel. I started my woodworking business in a generous single-car garage fed with a 60 amp breaker, though. I eventually had some big tools and as many as four people working there at a time, so the 60 amp subpanel was a PITA. I eventually put in a 200 amp separate drop to that building, mast and everythin'. All the electricians in town were scheduled way out, so i pulled a permit, looked at several installed panels, took a shot, and passed my inspection. Still, there's a vast electrical wilderness out there i don't understand, and i thank you all for helping me through parts that don't make sense.
The backfed breaker is used out of convenience. Manufacturers don't want to go to the trouble to make non-breaker switch inserts for their panels, and even if one was available it would likely be banned since some dope would use it in a non-backfed fashion and have an unprotected circuit.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Actually there is a QO switch that is rated for 60 amps.Probably not sold by it'self.But they sell simple disconnect which consists of a box with a with this switch and a 2 one slot bus bars and lugs.Pulled it out and put in a QO breaker. Needed to protect by AC with a smaller breaker and my panel uses obsolete breakers. So until I replace it that serves as both the disconnect and the OC limiter for the AC.An electrican that I knew said that he uses the switch in panels sometimes for trouble shooting motor circuits that kept tripping on startup..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I have a handful of these QO "switches" if the OP wants one (pay for a small USPS Flat Rate box and I will send you one)
They were real popular for HVAC discos.
I saw those at the big box yesterday, and they were selling for $4.90 on sale, a great price, but i see they're limited to 60 amps. I changed course a bit since i discovered yesterday that i have a 100 amp breaker in my house partz stash, which i tried in my GE main panel and found it fits.
After becoming concerned i couldn't use the panel at all, it now appears that i have a few options: Junkhound's breaker at the main panel, Bill's separate switch box, or your backfed breaker. Spoiled for choice...thanks, all!
Manny of those panels are convertable to main breaker. That is what the catalog shows.
As you said it is just a backfeed large breaker, WITH A LOCKDOWN SCREW/BRACKERT/ETC.
In the Cutler Hammer the bracker and hold down is large enough that you can't put anything opposite it in the bus. So don't break out the cover slots until you check that out.
As Dan said a detached building is suppose to have a disconnect. It does not need to have over current protection (fuse/breaker) but can.
The idea is to be able to quickly kill power to that structure if there is a "problem" or even handy just for maintance.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I'll check tomorrow to see if my panel is convertible. Thanks for that tip.
I was never sure why this wasn't available to a homeowner
"225.32 Exception No. 1: For installations under single management, where documented safe switching procedures are established and maintained for disconnection, and where the installation is monitored by qualified individuals, the disconnecting means shall be permitted to be located elsewhere on the premises."
I suppose it depends on if the homeowner is "qualified"
"Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved."
After all, even the biggest commercial operation might lay off all the "qualified" people, just ask around ;-)
If you have the 100a breaker and a hold down clip it will be perfectly acceptable as your disconnect. Feed into that breaker. The upstream 60a is your over current protection.
Thanks for that. I'm pretty qualified, having wired or re-wired three houses/shops now from the meter onward. The first shop i ever had, i hired an electrician to put in a subpanel, and now realize it was the main lug style with no disconnect. It was irritating to have to trek back in the house to reset the breaker when i got a piece of wood stuck in the drum sander, though, so it would seem that putting the same size breaker as a disconnect on the subpanel as in the house panel would be a better idea. I'm not experienced enough to know if both breakers would trip, or if the one in the shop would trip first and spare me the trip to the house....? Can you tell me the rationale for the 100 amp breaker you recommend in the panel to be backfed, considering there'll be a 60 amp breaker in the house?
If both breakers are the same size, it's a tossup as to which one will trip first. Even if they are different-sized, the larger breaker may trip first in case of a dead short (though probably not in the case of a simple overload).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I suspect that you're sloshing through a swamp of poor information, incomplete information, misinformation, local ordinances, and trade practices. Since you say you have no inspection available, you lack the pleasure of asking a real expert before you mess things up. Anyway, I'll try to sort out some of the terms, and try to make some sense of things.
You only need the panel to have 'overcurrent' protection (fuse or breaker) in one place; this place can be either at the panel that feeds it, or at the new panel. Actually, it can also be nearly anywhere between the two as well; I'll return to that option.
What you absolutely must do, though, is run four wires to this panel. At the new panel, you need to keep the grounds and the neutrals isolated from each other; this means adding a 'ground buss' and NOT using the green screw that comes with the panel. You also must have a ground rod.
Generally, you also need the detached structure to have a disconnecting means on the outside of the building. This would generally be a fire code, rather than electrical code, issue, and is a good idea anyway. This disconnect switch is often a convenient place to have your overcurrent protection for the panel inside.
As far as 'back feeding' a breaker is concerned, that is generally allowed; however, you will need to buy (from the pamel mfr.) a clip of some sort to hold that breaker in place.
I already had a 100 amp breaker for my main panel, it turned out, so i fed 2-2-2 AL, with separate ground, through conduit yesterday. Ground buss is already in the QO subpanel i bought, far from the neutral buss, and i also have a separate Ufer ground. I'll look for a separate disconnect that will handle 100 amps. From a previous poster, code grants an exception for homeowners, but i can see the advantages of a disconnect on any detached structure.I do have one additional question, for you or anyone else, since i decided to use the larger breaker and wire: When i was planning on using copper wire, the ground was a bare wire. Yesterday i was sold insulated AL wire for a ground wire, and i haven't been able to figure out from my reading it if matters. Conduit is SCH40 PVC underground and SCH80 above, so i can't see that it would matter, but i surely don't want to miss anything i'd have to dig up later.
The thing you missed is #2al is not big enough for 100a
Now i'm cornfused! I must've used ten wire calculators online, since maddog turned me on to them for my last pump wiring, to check and check-again that gauge. In addition, the chart at the store said #2 was good for 100 amps, though i thought that was over-broad considering the chart didn't factor in distance...in my case, 100'. Good grief, that's one thing i thought i had well in hand. Are the online calculators not to be trusted?
Splintie,
Fret is correct. If your 2AL wire is already in place, you can only go up to a 70A breaker in the main panel. But you should be able to find a GE 70A 2-pole breaker for < $20. You originally said you were going to use a 60A breaker, so I'm assuming your new main lug (sub)panel will handle 70A - all but the smallest would.
Regards,
Jim x 3
My subpanel is listed for up to 125 amp with CU, 100 amp with AL. I was all excited when i found this 100 amp breaker in my stash, which drove the whole #2 buying spree. Feeling blonde here... <G>
You will never have a problem with your #2 Al conductors hooked to a 100 A breaker for your underground service. Forget worrying about code related interpretations, even if you only have 60C wire.
You are never going to pull 100A to your shop anyway unless your BF is over runnng a 2nd 230A stick welder, so a 100A voltage drop calculation has no meaning (except to ratio it down to what you are pulling).
Own house has a subfeed of 2 2AWG in EMT feeding a subpanel with 12 breakers and 2 different heat pumps, one a 4T, the other 5T. 35 YO, zero problems.
The SINGLE ONE THING you need to remember is to use nickel loaded grease on the Al connections; AND, check the tightness of the Al connections similar to linseed oil finish - check tightness after one week, after 1 month, after 1 year, and after 10 years. This was 40 years ago I installed the #2 feeders, but recall I was able to add a 1/2 turn after a week, 1/4 turn after a month, another 1/4 turn after a year. Think I forgot and did not try again for maybe 10 years, no further tightening needed. A few months ago opened it up again 'for kicks', no need to tighten.
Going back to IL next month to redo Mom's main panel disconnect, installed 1913 with copper, same 60A fuse for 95 years, one finally blew during a hot AC day this year (probably combo of crystalization and oxidation and contact heating). Will be interesting to see if 95 YO #2 Cu has taken any set. Pop and his kids (incl me<G>) ran all the power tools off that panel.
You're pushing the #2 Al with 100 amps; you ought to use no larger than a 90 amp breaker.
I'm sure it's a matter of bad grammar, but I do hope you're actually running the power through an additional breaker, and not adding another set of wires to the existing main breaker in that panel.
Another possibility for a disconnecting means is to use a 'shunt trip' breaker in the new panel. With this type of breaker, your 'disconnect' is an ordinary switch mounted on the wall and suitable marked. The only 'trick' is that you mount the switch 'upside-down.'
On a side note, one advantage to having an outside disconnect is that it makes the job easier to do. That is, you run your pipe out of the ground, directly into the bottom of the disconnect. This is a lot easier than trying to run the pipe through the foundation and mudsill, at just the right spot, and there's no need to open the wall.
When you say you have a separate insulated ground wire, I start to worry. It sounds like the other wires were contained in a cable that you pulled in along with a separate ground; this is at the minimum a bad practice; all four wires ought to be separate wires, and not a cable. In any event, the ground wire (generally speaking) need not be insulated.
Sorry for my lack of clarity. The 100 amp breaker to feed the subpanel is one i added to the main panel yesterday, just bec i discovered i had it in my box of electrical goodies from past jobs. No double lugging allowed, unless the breaker's built for it, which i've found some are.I'm apparently using the term "cable" incorrectly. I thought it meant an insulated wire, but i guess it means a bundle of them in a plastic sleeve. (?) In any case, this 2-2-2 came off the spool with the three insulated wires very lightly twisted around each other for convenience, but not inside a jacket/sleeve. The insulated ground was pulled/pushed through the 1-1/2" PVC at the same time as the 2-2-2 group, is what i intended to say.
Sounds good to me. I just have not used that particular wire type.
I've been reading about shunt-trip breakers, but they seem like an added layer of complexity, and mostly used for cases of cutting electricity in case of water presence. Sort of like a GFCI, isn't it? I'm still trying to get to the bottom of why all the wire calculators i checked, factoring in the distance between panels, came up with #2 AL wire? I will replace the 100 amp breaker with a 90 or 70 amp one if necessary, but one of the calculators (electrician2.com) showed a 2.61% voltage drop over 100 feet with my inputs, and i thought i read that 3% was allowable. I'm not at all arguing against your experience, just trying to know what the limitations of those calculators might be. Do they push the limits of safety, while you are more conservative in your allowances?
I based my statement on the tables in the NEC, which has a little 'catch' that you probably overlooked. (You wouldn't be the first!)
The tables show #2 aluminum as good for 100 amps, assuming the wire has "90 degree" rated insulation. Fair enough. What's not mentioned is that the places you connect the wire - the terminals on the breakers - are only designed for 75 degrees (C). So, you wind up reducing the wire's capacity to that lower (90 amp) value.
A shunt trip can be confusing. All it is, really, is a 'main breaker' you put in the panel that has a set of contacts added to it. Close these contacts, and the breaker trips, killing power to the panel.
The advantage is that it lets you control big wires/breakers with little wires and an ordinary switch. Think of it as a relay built into the breaker.
Let's look at this in terms of your panel. Imagine that you have already run the big wires to your panel, and there is no pipe outside the building. Do you really want to tear it all out, just to add a disconnect? If you use a shunt-trip breaker, the big wires stay in the panel; all you do is run a bit of romex to a switch you mount on the outside wall. Flip the switch, and you kill power to the panel - with just an ordinary light switch. Think of it as a 'remote control' for the disconnect.
It's not a matter of "worrying about code interpretations", which I personally do. It is a matter that many areas allow the use of 310.15(B)(6) for feeders, and rightfully so IMO.
310.15(B)(6) allows the use of #4cu or #2al for a residential 100A service or feeder. If you area does not allow this then use a 90.
Have those areas specifically amended the code. Here is what it says."(6) 120/240-Volt, 3-Wire, Single-Phase Dwelling Services and Feeders For individual dwelling units of one family, two-family, and multifamily dwellings, conductors, as listed in Table 310.15(B)(6), shall be permitted as 120/240-volt, 3-wire, single-phase service-entrance conductors, service lateral conductors, and feeder conductors that serve as the main power feeder to each dwelling unit and are installed in raceway or cable with or without an equipment grounding conductor. //For application of this section, the main power feeder shall be the feeder(s) between the main disconnect and the lighting and appliance branch-circuit panelboards(s). The feeder conductors to a dwelling unit shall not be required to have an allowable ampacity rating greater than their service-entrance conductors. The grounded conductor shall be permitted to be smaller than the ungrounded conductors, provided the requirements of 215.2, 220.61, and 230.42 are met. "This feeder clearly does not meet those requirements.Now knowing that how that feeder will be used I would say that the installation is safe, but does not meet the letter of the code..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
I agree that is why I said it is not the most serious violation in the world. 310.15(B)(6) assumes the normal amount of load diversity you have in a home. I think he would have that much diversity in his shop too and it would be very hard/impossible to approach the 100a he has wired for.
Unfortunately as a licensed inspector I can't say it is OK on a public board.
Nope. No amendment. Simply interpretation. Correct interpretation in my opinion. YES, it absolutely CAN be interpreted both ways. In a residential setting (outbuilding or not it is STILL a residential setting) there is no logical reason not to allow 310.15(B)(6) to be used for any feeder.
Speedy, you better hurry. The 2011 is going to remove or severely limit the word feeder to end all confusion. It will only apply to service entrance conductors according to the draft.
Lets see what comes out of the comments phase.
I had heard something like that. Let's just hope it doesn't come to pass. If so then 2011 may shape up to be more of a mess than 2008.No matter for me, NY does not follow the NEC for 1 & 2 family dwellings anyway.
Sorry i didn't get back yesterday to answer, but i had a fall frost threatening my garden. The #2 is all safely in conduit and ready to be hooked up at both ends as soon as i get the wall built to hold the subpanel. Golly, that graphite lubricant i used made a mess... I have no trouble erring on the side of caution, so at this point, my easiest remedy is a 90 amp breaker installed either at the main panel or backfed at the subpanel and used as the disconnect. I'll look at the ReSource store for either a GE (main panel) or QO (subpanel) 90 amp and go either way with that.Alox inhibitor is already purchased, and i'll wire-brush the AL strands before clamping them down, and then re-check periodically. I'd read that the failures/fires with AL wire run to 110V outlets were due to expansion/contraction issues, so i was aware they needed a bit of maintenance. I'm with Junkhound that i'll likely never max the breaker out with my usage of the space, but i won't be the very last owner. Also, if i ever want to add electric space heating, i'd have that option now with the larger wire and panel, compared to my original idea of a bare-bones, 60 amp circuit.I truly appreciate the discussion, and only wish to further clarify that the OP is a woman with her own Kleins, if not her own copy of the NEC. Thanks, guys!
I don't know if it is NEC, local code, inspector bias or what, but I was told that a subpanel in my shop (outbuilding) could not have more than 6 individual breakers without have a main breakers, as it could take too long to turn everything off in an emergency. Something similar to that may be the source of the advice your originally received.Woody
I'm not sure i'd personally use more than six breakers, since this subpanel will serve mostly as my "subshop", but there are certainly more spaces than that for breakers. I got to thinking that it's odd that any panel wouldn't include an obvious spot for a main breaker. I guess i'm not sure what function a main lug subpanel of the size i bought (100 amp w/AL, 125 amp w/CU) would even serve, that wouldn't be better served with a main breaker subpanel.
Yeah, it always seemed to me they would have a main as well, but many don't. I saw one of our panels at work the other day that had no slot for a main but they used one of the top slots to put in a 100 AMP breaker wired backwards to feed the panel and it served as the main. It was mind boggling to me when I first saw it (not an electrician as I'm sure you have figured out), but it worked fine. I'm sure sure how Kosher that is, or perhaps others have already recommended it, but just thought I would mention it. Anyway that is the explanation that I got from the inspector regarding the requirement of a main breaker. Good luck!Woody
Backfed breaker is kosher if clamped down, labeled, outlined in fluorescent orange paint. <G> I've wired several houses as a DIY, but i'm probably more cautious now than before. Out here in the wilds of MT, home-ownership is hard on people: three houses on my lane have burned to the ground, and a guy got chopped to bits when he screwed up with his pressure switch in a well pit. I'm REALLY looking forward to winding up the spring on the garage door i got off Craigslist! Goddess bless the folks who write good instruction manuals and, of course, Al Gore for inventing the Internets.
, and a guy got chopped to bits when he screwed up with his pressure switch in a well pit
Is there more to that story?
I was messing with mine just last week, it needs a nudge to go when the power goes off and tank goes to zero.
Gotta kludge it when I get to it, but don't want to be dismembered if I can avoid it.
Joe H
That may be normal. There are some set up that way so if the pump sucks air it won't run "dry" once the pressure falls off.
Just plain ol SquareD press switch.
Think it's moving too far out & the coil isn't strong enuff to pull it in.
Works most of the time, except when it doesn't.
Thinking wrap a tie wrap around the stop on the back side that stops the contacts.'
Need to get out there with a flashlight and see what's up, maybe it'll look different with some light on it.
Joe H
I don't know the details, whether it was pilot error, a bad switch, or a bad tank, or a combo of mistakes. Maybe he asked someone to hold his beer...?Reading your second post about it...you can buy a new switch for what you're spending on flashlight batteries to check it out in the dark! ;^)
Edited 9/27/2009 10:37 pm by splintergroupie
Splinter, on that garage door spring, be sure you get some good rods, the right size. Mine were 1/2" but check yours. I got a 3' stick of cold rolled steel and cut it in half. That gives you some nice leverage. Make sure they are seated well before you pull on them.
Yep, i've read the horror stories about garage springs, too, so i'll take the cold-rolled-steel advice to heart. I got to looking over my house's 16' garage door for guidance about the RO for the one in the new shop, and now realize how badly it was installed. It doesn't look like any of the lags were pre-drilled, and they're screwed in kittywampus. The center bearing block on the rod that holds the spring is one of my own 1" oak wood scraps he grabbed, with about a dozen 16d nails driven into it, with variable success, to fix it to the header. Once i get the 8' door up and working, i'll take my new skill and redo the one installed by the "expert". Why i DIY...
Were we feeding a dwelling of some sort, you would be correct. However, I do not think the OP is building a dwelling. Unless his main is supplied by #2 aluminum, we're not asking for the feeder to be larger than the service drop, either.
It's a fine point, and, as gfretwell said, not the worst error one could make. Personally, I doubt that there will ever be an issue.
Yup that twisted wire is triplex. I see the utilities use it a lot although one conductor is usually bare. As for the 90 vs 100a deal. To get 100 you have to use table 310.15(B)(6) which really only applies to the main service into the house, not a sub panel. 310.16 in the 75c column gets you 90a.
In the grand scheme of things it is not the worst violation in the world and lots of people get confused about this (in fact the wording will change in the 2011 code).
To be legal you still should be using a 90a breaker.
Your voltage drop at 100a is 6.3v so that is under the recommended limit of 3%.
Did you ever decide what you were using for a disconnect out on the garage? That may be your "out" on this.
The feeder tap rules would let you protect from overloads on this feeder at the load end. If you back feed a 90a or smaller breaker in the garage (with a hold down clip) you are OK.
no inspection available, you lack the pleasure of asking a real expert before you mess things up
LOL!