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Ed,
Nice to see someone having fun with an electrical remodel. We were just wiring a kitchen on Saturday for a Habitat project. Eight circuits for just the kitchen. Eight home runs.
In fact, over half the circuits in the house were for the kitchen. Which leads me to wonder about the pros and cons of mounting a sub panel just for the kitchen. Smaller loadcenter and one run of feeder. But it would be a spendy feeder and a 12 position panel in the kitchen. (Make a fine discussion topic. There are assorted NEC “no-no”s in panel positioning that need to be sorted out.)
BOOK – If you don’t have it, buy B&D’s Advanced Home Wiring. It’s a great DIY book, excellent photos, and a fine section on kitchen wiring with pix and plans.
Your wife is right about a dedicated microwave circuit. Why not? Do it up right. Re: Item 2 – the applicance circuits are normally wired so that alternate duplex outlets are on opposite legs of a balanced circuit (shared neutral). You could wire the top and bottom of a duplex outlet on alternate legs.
CONDUIT – EMT? I like the stuff and use EMT when possible (being traditional). My condo is wired in EMT and has plaster walls. BUT – I would have to question the time and labor involved in using it in a kitchen remodel.
There are so many short runs and bends in a kitchen. Even with Romex, the kitchen is the most labor-intensive part of wiring a home. There is a very high device-density (ADW’s model 170 SF kitchen shows 25 devices – lights, outlets, switches) Getting it bent right is a real art form and the subject of specialized tools, books, videos, and dedicated calculators for the pros. Now days it is almost unknown in home wiring.
Have you worked with it? (If not, you are in for a steep learning curve.) Is the plaster off and the walls open for access? EMT is not something I’d normally select for Old Work. Romex (NM-B) would be the least expensive and is flexible. Tract housing or custom – that is what they wire with these days (unless you want to pay). One nice custom home had a pair of 200A loadcenters in the lower garage (there was also an upper garage) and was still wired with 14g Romex in most places. I’d wonder about the voltage drop in the 3d floor back, which was about a half day hike from the loadcenter.
MC – metal clad would be the second choice. It offers some armor and will flex to a certain radius. It comes preloaded with conductors (14/2,3 and 12/2,3 and so on). Check first with your local electrical inspectors to see what they want in a kitchen remodel. This prevents nasty surprises at the back end. If your heart is set on EMT, send me Mail for some suggestions.
Here is a rough list of kitchen circuits. Your milage may vary based on kitchen size and stylistic differences:
(2) 1P20A – small applicance circuits – normally wired as a 12/3WG balanced circuit (shared neutral, outlets on alternate legs) on a 2P20A breaker.
(1) 2P50A – dedicated range circuit.
(1) 1P20A – dedicated microwave circuit
(1) 1P15A – dedicated disposal circuit
(1) 1P15A – dedicated dishwasher circuit
(1) 1P20A – dedicated refrig. Circuit (Some stick this on the small appliance circuit. Never on a GFCI or GFCI-controlled outlet unless you like rotted steak. On a dedicated circuit, there is no confusion.)
(1) 1P15A – basic lighting circuit
Goodluck,
ToolBear
Replies
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Ed,
Nice to see someone having fun with an electrical remodel. We were just wiring a kitchen on Saturday for a Habitat project. Eight circuits for just the kitchen. Eight home runs.
In fact, over half the circuits in the house were for the kitchen. Which leads me to wonder about the pros and cons of mounting a sub panel just for the kitchen. Smaller loadcenter and one run of feeder. But it would be a spendy feeder and a 12 position panel in the kitchen. (Make a fine discussion topic. There are assorted NEC "no-no"s in panel positioning that need to be sorted out.)
BOOK - If you don't have it, buy B&D's Advanced Home Wiring. It's a great DIY book, excellent photos, and a fine section on kitchen wiring with pix and plans.
Your wife is right about a dedicated microwave circuit. Why not? Do it up right. Re: Item 2 - the applicance circuits are normally wired so that alternate duplex outlets are on opposite legs of a balanced circuit (shared neutral). You could wire the top and bottom of a duplex outlet on alternate legs.
CONDUIT - EMT? I like the stuff and use EMT when possible (being traditional). My condo is wired in EMT and has plaster walls. BUT - I would have to question the time and labor involved in using it in a kitchen remodel.
There are so many short runs and bends in a kitchen. Even with Romex, the kitchen is the most labor-intensive part of wiring a home. There is a very high device-density (ADW's model 170 SF kitchen shows 25 devices - lights, outlets, switches) Getting it bent right is a real art form and the subject of specialized tools, books, videos, and dedicated calculators for the pros. Now days it is almost unknown in home wiring.
Have you worked with it? (If not, you are in for a steep learning curve.) Is the plaster off and the walls open for access? EMT is not something I'd normally select for Old Work. Romex (NM-B) would be the least expensive and is flexible. Tract housing or custom - that is what they wire with these days (unless you want to pay). One nice custom home had a pair of 200A loadcenters in the lower garage (there was also an upper garage) and was still wired with 14g Romex in most places. I'd wonder about the voltage drop in the 3d floor back, which was about a half day hike from the loadcenter.
MC - metal clad would be the second choice. It offers some armor and will flex to a certain radius. It comes preloaded with conductors (14/2,3 and 12/2,3 and so on). Check first with your local electrical inspectors to see what they want in a kitchen remodel. This prevents nasty surprises at the back end. If your heart is set on EMT, send me Mail for some suggestions.
Here is a rough list of kitchen circuits. Your milage may vary based on kitchen size and stylistic differences:
(2) 1P20A - small applicance circuits - normally wired as a 12/3WG balanced circuit (shared neutral, outlets on alternate legs) on a 2P20A breaker.
(1) 2P50A - dedicated range circuit.
(1) 1P20A - dedicated microwave circuit
(1) 1P15A - dedicated disposal circuit
(1) 1P15A - dedicated dishwasher circuit
(1) 1P20A - dedicated refrig. Circuit (Some stick this on the small appliance circuit. Never on a GFCI or GFCI-controlled outlet unless you like rotted steak. On a dedicated circuit, there is no confusion.)
(1) 1P15A - basic lighting circuit
Goodluck,
ToolBear
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Get a better quality receptacle ($2-$5) Break off the little tabs between the binding screws on both sides (brass colored and silver colored). Now you have two single plug-ins on one strap. Run two 12-2 w/g NM-B cables to this recpt. One for the micro and one for the tea kettle. Or one for the top and one for the bottom.
Don't waste your time on #14 cable or multi-wire circuits. They can become built in problems. Building centers sell breakers and romex so cheap it's not worth it. You can get more good info further down the menu at other wiring posts.
Wiring is one of the physically easiest and mentally most rewarding phases of residential building and remodeling. Good Luck
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Ed,
Toolbear gave you some good advice. Get a good (Current)book on the subject. Kitchen wiring is becoming more complex and you just as well do it right.
Since your wiring is old has your service been updated? An old panel with no main breaker can easily be overloaded with the addtion of more circuits, sub-panels etc.
Overloaded wires without proper protection with breakers work just like the burners on your electric range.
You can do it, but do it smart.
Gregory
*Thanks for the info, guys( Toolbear, Alex, Gregory ). We are getting the service panel upgraded from 60 amp type with fuses to a 200 amp with circuit-breakers.That'll be done before the kitchen re-wire. By the way, I keep wondering what size conduitto use ( probably 3/4", but maybe 1" ). I guessit depends on how many wires I run thru it. Doyou have that info. Also, although the conduititself will be grounded back at the service panel,I intend to run groups of 3 wires ( hot/neutral/earth ground ) thru the conduit. Sooo, I guess Ican put multiples of 3 wires ( 3, 6, 9, etc. )into the conduit.How many can I safely/easily get intothe various conduit types ??? We don't have or plan to have an electric range.But I have given some thought to having a subpanelinstalled for the kitchen electrics. Any ideasor opinions on that ?
*I think EMT for a remodel would be a real pain with little point. Is there some overriding reason to use it? (I.e., you live in a backward jurisdiction that doesn't allow plastic.) If not, use NM (Romex), much much much easier and faster.A subpanel is a good idea, especially if the run from breaker box to kitchen is long. Search this site for "subpanel, it's been discussed quite a bit recently.
*Yes, EMT will be a bit of a pain, especially drilling thru soleplates of the floor, after I bashout some of the plaster. The problem with the old stuff is that the insulation is falling to pieces,and we've had a bit of arcin' 'n sparkin' fromthese. So, they do need to be taken out.
*Ed,Conduit is never used in a wood framed residential kitchen...And as far as giving you ideas...it's hard to understand what you are explaining...ie "arcin' 'n sparkin' from these. So, they do need to be taken out."...these?... what are you talking about?...insulation falling?....Have you had a contractor or knowledgeable friend take a helpful look?...Eyes on site are needed.Waiting for my web cam,Jack : )
*Actually, I kind of enjoy the stunning and unpredictable light displays that result when electricity is untethered from the narrow confines in which we channel it. Saw one of those step-down transformers on the utility poles fail once -- it was like the Fourth of July. Impressive what 19 kV can do, compared to this crummy 120 V they let us use in the house.Unless there is an overriding reason to use conduit (I think Bill said you still have to use it in Chicago for some archaic union reason), NM will suit you fine, like millions of other of post-60's built/reno'd American households. IF your current wiring has malfunctioned, you MUST first determine WHY so it doesn't happen again and torch your house. 60 y.o. BX in our house is still working fine, better than the unfortunate aluminum wiring flirted with in the 60's. I'd guess overcurrent??? Defective outlets???
*andrew,I would think if metal sheathing is the code then BX would be OK...I would use bx anytime...and avoid conduit unless mounting to concrete, running under driveways, on docks, boathouses, exterior exposed landscape projects..etcJack : )
*Ah, yes. i didn't mean to -rule out- BX. but I think NM is easier (in protected locations).
*Andrew,It's not really that much easier if one has a BX jacket stripper...but it is less money...BX is great in "rat" land too.Jack : )
*I'll have another look at the BX - there maybe enough excess length. It was installed years ago ( late 1950's ) and was strung a bit loosely in the basement, so maybe I can pull bit moreup to the receptacle. The insulation in the BX seems to be cloth of some kind, not plastic. The insulation is pretty decrepit near the receptacle, but is okay a few inches back. A guy we were going to hire for some kitchen re-model work refused to have anything to do with it, claiming it was unsafe. Original owner-builder ( 40 yrs ago ) put in mostly BX. 2nd owner put in a few runs of ROMEX and conduit. Wiring throughout is a hodge-podge.I'm the 3rd owner. The metal prongs on thepower cords for electric kettle and coffemakerare burningly hot when unplugged immediatelyafter use. ( My 1st guess is that the wire gage is too small ). And, as I previously posted, the wife wants to be able to run the microwave and the electric tea kettle SIMULTANEOUSLY from onedual receptacle. So, one way or the other, I haveto run more wire. If we run 'em now at the sametime, we get a blown fuse. The arcin' 'n sparkin' is a problem at one of thedual receptacle, which we now rarely use. I intendto have a look at that. I've worked a bit with ROMEX, and I like it, butit's "not code" in this area ( not that the village officials need to know, )
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why not run 10-3 romex with ground and be done with the whole problem? You can either have a seperate circuit for each half of the recep, or a seperate circuit for each recep. Jut finished gutting my kitchen and dining room, ran 10-3 to each GFCI and it worked beautifully.
*
I bet! But a generous squirt of wire pulling lube and the NM just slide right through, around corners, etc. And i should get one of those BX strippers; using the Sawzall is a bit tricky... and I'm too lazy to use the hacksaw.
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Alex,
The smooth move on the split outlet is to pull one run of 12/3 WG, giving you two hots for either side of the outlet and a shared neutral.
ToolBear
*Ed,Yes, the conduit size is stipulated by the NEC based on the type of wire, the size of wire, the number of conductors and what you are using for conduit. I have a calculator that does this for me. Example - you can run 9 #12 THHN or 12 #14 THHN conductors in 1/2" EMT.Appendix C in the code has the fill tables. Fun reading. With mixes of different sized conductors, it gets more fun (area circular mills calculations).So - how many conductors? What size/type? I suggest you prepare a circuit table showing the circuit number for the panel, the breaker required, the service (dishwasher, lighting, whatever will be on that breaker), the wire being used, etc. This will help you plan the layout and think about what you are going to do before you spend. Easier to correct mistakes on paper.Next, you get into route finding of the assorted home runs from panel to kitchen. Do you have benders for the normal EMT sizes - 1/2, 3/4? I don't have one for 1" myself.Got an electrician on staff? You're getting into the deep end of the pool here.If it were romex, the Hole Hawg would be cutting holes in the floor joists for the runs. If there are a lot of circuits in EMT or whatever, you might consider a large conduit of X inches diameter from the panel to an auxillary wiring gutter (a steel box, normally 4"x4" x X' long with knockouts) below the kitchen floor. At this point the individual 1/2" runs depart the gutter for their destinations.Another option might be to locate a subpanel for the kitchen in the basement below the kitchen. Have to check code on this - or chat up the inspector. ToolBear
*Ed,You are having fun! Hot conductors is Nature's Way of telling you to fix the problem or buy a lot of smoke alarms. And, arc and spark!Do it right so you can sleep nights and not make the 11 PM News. Sounds like you have two generations of "hodges" now. Don't add your own "podge". When you go to sell, non-code wiring is going to be an issue. Lack of disclosure raised legal issue. Non-code wiring done without permit will be a bigger issue. The purpose of the NEC is to keep you from burning something up or getting zapped.Just where are you? Back East? Who does the inspecting and what do they like?The BX you describe is antique. We had a project wired with what I call "proto Romex" - a very early form of it with braided sheath. We abandoned it all in place, cut it off the panel and ran surface mounted EMT (it was not a house, BTW). Not only was the wire scary, their past DIY wiring practices were terrifying. I pulled one "splice" out of a wall - no box to contain it. Someone just scraped some insulation off the proto romex and "T"ed off it for another run - and about 3" of loose tape to cover it. Lots of copper showing. How many more like that in the walls? No way to know and who wants to find out?ToolBear
*Om,Try the MC, preloaded with the conductors. Saves time. Pull it once.ToolBear
*Jack,It sure was in mine. Whole condo (60's), kitchen and all, is wired in EMT. And - the walls are plaster over backerboard. I think it was done round the end of that era. We now live in the bright golden age of gypboard and romex, which was what I was pulling today.I like EMT, I run EMT but the though of trying to remodel a kitchen with it is very challenging. I hope the walls are totally open. It doesn't fish too well. Time and materials? BX or MC if it must be in metal.TB
*
Lynn,
10-3 ?????.....Absolutely 100% overkill and wrong. This board is read by many and I must say "way oversizing your wire to 15 or 20 amp 110v receptacles is not a DIY or standard residential practice anywhere...
NO need to spend the money...and possibly unsafe in many respects that you might have overlooked. You didn't mention that receps. would have to be wire nutted through proper gage wire and that breakers used would have to be labeled and kept at 20a max. and I could go on.
No, read this as "NO" 10 wire for 20a common 110v receptacle circuits. Don't try to... "do what's right" , "twice as right"...it often leads to "totally wrong."
Sorry "Dangerous" Lynn,
Jack : ) )(
*PROVIDED that the two hots are 180° out of phase.
*We have the old cotton insulated BX from the 40's. The cotton was impregnated with some sort of fire retardant. My first experiences with it were of fried insulation as you describe. I discovered that this had only happened in the vicinity of overlamped flush ceiling fixtures and that the BX was otherwise in excellent condition. Still I hesitate to run more than lighting off of it.The heat problem you describe is very serious. Rewire the circuit from scratch, and probably the rest of the kitchen too -- the high current draw increases the likelihood of fire (as the square of the amps carried). A fire in the wall will get you a nice kitchen wall tearout when the firemen arrive (for free!). Heat alone can eventually cause wood to combust.Toolbear, what you saw was nuthin. The DIY here, like yours, did a dozen splices concealed in the basement ceiling with no boxes; but also deliberately wrapped BX with electrical tape at the entry to the boxes he did use, defeating the ground; snipped off the ground wire at the box in the Romex he used (distrust of grounding? and contempt of polarity); mixed aluminum and copper wire with abandon, sometimes more than once in the same circuit (so that it looks like copper at the breaker and at the device ... but elsewhere in the run...); used whatever color wire he felt like, including hot greens; couldn't fit boxes in the furred-out paneling on the basement walls (yup, that brown and black masonite stuff that stuck into everyone's bsmt during the 60's), so didn't bother, just stubbed out the wires and nestled the connections in the paneling.... I got a mild shock the other day reaching in the wall to work on plumbing and brushing a receptacle box -- didn't ever figure out why, but replaced all the wiring nearby before someone got an overly stimulating shower. To push the envelope farther, the last tenants apparently loved light 'cause they stuck 100W bulbs in every socket on every fixture, including a 4-light, frying the cloth insulation and nearly burning off the "Caution: Do not use more than 60W bulb" sticker. Yet the house did not burn for these past 30 years, so maybe all these rules are bogus? :)A word of caution to the homeowner: a electrician can make mistakes too (or be a bozo). The one we hired to do the pre-move-in fixup added grounding wires to the 3-prong metal-boxed receptacles, not once checking whether the boxes were grounded (nope).
*Toolbear, we're about 25 miles west of Chicago.Thanks for the info on how many wires can be putinto conduit. I'm an electrical engineer, but NOT an electrician. Even so, my work in the past hasinvolved wiring up equipment using the black/white/green wiring scheme for power suppliesand transformers. Years ago, I learned the hardway what happens when you don't ground the chassis. For a number of years I had to workwith high-voltage "hot" chassis TV's, measuringthe anode voltage on picture tubes ( typically25 kilovolts DC, that is 25,000 volts. ) Did thatdaily and never once got "zapped". So, I'm acutelyaware of saftey issues involved. Andrew, thanks for mentioning how old insulationcan deteriorate when subjected to heavier loadingconditions. I think for the moment we're safebecause the BX is, of course, metal-jacketed. ButI think I'll feel even safer if I have EMT containing the THHN ( high temp ) cable. We're getting service upgraded by a licensedelectrician. Because of cost considerations, I'llprobably do the kitchen re-wire myself AFTER the service upgrade. The service upgrade must havea permit from the village. For the kitchen rewire,the electrician said I don't have to inform thevillage if I do it myself. New construction here in DuPage County mustuse conduit. I could run new BX because its use has been "grandfathered" in if its already in an existing house. There's a lot of other work to be done in thishouse, but it looks fairly easy compared to allthe work to done in the kitchen. Thanks for allyour advice !
*Wow, restrictive rules. If you're compulsively law-abiding (like me) you might want to ask the village about their permit reqs. directly.I ... think ... the wire in modern BX and NM is "high temp" -- the 90° or 120° C or whatever it is -- same as THHN? If it's all conduit for you, the subpanel idea would be a particularly good labor saver. You could have the electrician do it too -- it's just one easy circuit.Don't forget you can daisy-chain a few outlets off of one GFCI, save a little trouble. Good luck!!
*General Cable's Romex brand NM-B uses THHN type (90degC) conductors in the cable, but the PVC jacket is only rated at 75degC and the NEC rating for the cable assembly is still only 60degC (though I'm not sure why the cable is still rated 60degC with the improved insulation).
*
TB,
Yes,it is smooth and will work well for one outlet. But, the multi-wire method requires more care if you extend to more outlets. The outlets should be pigtailed (as mentioned in other Breaktime posts). Also, multi-wire for GFCI protected circuits like kitchens doesn't work that well. I think it is easier to run two 12/2 cables, each to a GFCI, then proceed to alternating outlets along the counters. Pulling 12/3 to a larger box and splitting to 12/2 and GFCI "upstairs" doesn't seem worth it.
Probably I'm missing something...
*
Dangers of three wire circuits...
Seems an inspector talked me out of using these circuits once...and one of many things he pointed out was that splitting a receptacle for two circuits hooked to opposite legs was potential for 220v "bites" in many ways being that 220v energized screws on the receptacle side are right next ot each other...And there must be a huge list of don't do's associated with 3 wire trickery that's totally non-DIY-friendly...Could someone help out with the list?
Unravelling "3 wire mystifies",
Jack : )
*
Ed,
I used to live thataway - Wilmette, IL. New Trier for high school. But it's warmer in Newport Beach, CA. I can wear shorts all year.
I should ask: Is the kitchen going to be stripped back to the studs so you have access to the wiring?
It would certainly ease your DIY joy.
And: Have you bent much EMT? It's a form of metal sculpture. Which is why sparkies like Romex and MC.
I have one bender that does nothing but the box offsets in 1/2 EMT.
If it's legal in DuPage, I'd consider running new MC - the preloaded form of BX, because kitchens have way too many bends for easy pulling in EMT. This means much harder pulling in BX owing to frictional losses on the walls (Yes, the pulling lubes do work!).
It's a time and materials issue. The MC already has the conductors loaded. YOu get to do the cost tradeoffs. MC is more. Now factor in the wire costs, the pulling woes, etc.
BTW - if you are going to pull thru BX or EMT, buy the stranded conductors. I hardly ever use solid nowadays. The stranded pulls soooo nicely.
ToolBear In Shorts
*Jack,He has a good point. I wrap the finished outlet in tape so all the screws are covered. I can visualize the arc when a hot screw contacts the metal box. (Don't ask why I can visualize this.) However, they do it. The 3 wire balanced applicance circuit for the kitchen is stock - but normally the outlets in a box are wired to one leg or the other, not split - but I've seen that too. The fun is in the disposal, dishwaher circuits. Pull a pair of 12/2s or one 12/3? Guess what usually happens.ToolBear
*Om....You win! I raise my paws and show my tummy!You have the scariest DIYer! Hope he didn't rewire the whole house.We don't need no stinkin' grounds.The color changes in a run are similar to Taiwanese boat wiring. The wire is imported and has high duties so they stretch it real tight - and if you are out of black, green will do.Like the CU-AL mixture. I pulled one DIY bit like that out of a kitchen ceiling - where it has been slowly frying for a long time. All the insulation for several inches was crispied off. I was asked if grey smoke coming from a wall outlet indicated a problem. "Yup, an excessive rate of oxidation." Tempted to say, "No, it's just something smouldering in your wall. Now, black smoke or blue, that's a problem called fire."Nice thing about the DIY books such as B&D's Advanced Home wiring; they show you what the correct method is.ToolBear
*
Why does the disposal get its own circuit? I know breaker size on motors should be kept down, but the 1/2 hp we have draws like 5 amps....
*Toolgrizzly,You type well with those paws...More three wire yak...I see the problem being down the road when some unfortunate person like me comes along to work in one of these boxes thinking 110v lives inside, when all of a sudden 220v rears its ugly head and grabs hold in the worst way!...And in the kitchen with great grounds everywhere (sinks and appliances) I would think there will be some refried human remains buried six feet under three days later here and there across our internet hyperspeed addicted country...I dicovered these money saving circuits and "welded" my eyelids pretty good a couple years back.Semi-more cautious,Jack : )
*
Om....
The disposal is one of the dedicated kitchen circuits. Normally the stove, dishwasher, disposal, are on their own breakers. To be modern, add the microwave and the frig. This is in addition to the two 20A applicance circuits.
Our current project, which is "affordable housing" - and not that shabby, had washer, disposal, fridge on dedicated circuits and gas for the stove.
ToolBear
*
Toolbear
Are you running separate neutral wires to each outlet? If not, don't you run the risk of overloading the neutral if you are running two high load appliances at the same time?
*Scott,Read this whole topic...three wire circuits are well explained earlier...the neutral carries the amps of one circuit minus the amps of the second circuit...as long as nothing is screwed with and the neautral never fails, then the circuit works well...If is the key...If????Not for today's kinda people,Jack : ) )(ps What I'm saying is that if you gotta ask what it's all about, then this circuit is one to stay way away from...Stick to the DIYer books.
*
Scott -
RE - 3 wire balanced circuits
Two hots on opposite bus bars and a shared neutral.
Richer and Schwan, "Practical Electrical Wiring", 16th Ed., cover balanced circuits in some detail and enthusiasm, complete with diagrams. Their point is that the shared neutral reduces the voltage drop and the amount of wire used, both of interest to the electrician.
As the flow in one half the circuit is opposite the flow on the other half at any moment, the shared neutral acts as a neutral conductor if the same load is on both legs. So, instead of overloading the neutral, it's just coasting.
If half the 3 wire circuit has a 15A load and the other half, 5 A, then the neutral is carrying the difference - 10 A (Richter).
They also stress that you DO NOT wire thru the outlets on these 3 wire circuits. Pigtail so the removal of a device does not convert the rest of the devices into 240V outlets. Hummm...
ToolBear
*Ed..Wow I just started reading this message line last night and it took me forever to read all the good advice that has been given to you. ToolBear knows what he is talking about and gives excellent advice about the circuitry you need for your kitchen. I thought AdirondacJack was going to havea kitten when someone suggested 10/3 for a 20amp appliance circuit good call Jack. To summarize everything that was given to you and to use it properly then you must admit a couple things. 1. If your going to remodel your kitchen then remodel your kitchen, remove the plaster from your walls like Toolbear suggested, why punch holes all over and then do a patchwork quilt job on fixing the holes. 2. EMT is not the way to go, at least not for the branch circuits. I'm trying to figure out why you worry about the Village ord. about the wiring methods to use but you are not going to get a permit. ALL wiring methods are safe that are in the NEC or they would'nt be there. If you are not permitting the job and the walls are bare then run a 1" pipe to the range recpt enclosure and branch off of that. Run a ground or do'nt run a ground but if you do make sure it is sized in accordance with the NEC. You can then run pipe or romex from that range box (why not romex your not getting it permitted). You now have the best of both worlds, pipe to your J-Box then romex throughout the kitchen. By the way why put in a sub-panel when you will have plenty of space in your new 200amp panel sounds like a waste of time and money along with the worry about where you are going to put it in or near the kitchen. If you do not strip the walls of plaster then you must know you are in for the long haul and it will take you forever to do this job and by the way you'll get about half way throught it and the plaster will come off so do it now. (remodeling kitchens includes plumbing so how are you going to do all this and keep the walls intact?)
*
Unexpected 240 V ---> Zap! Boom! Crash! Uh-oh.
*Well, the plumbing can come out of the floor, as it now does in our kitchen. For that matter, wiring could too if you devise a way to protect it from nails etc. (e.g., metal plate). Demo'ing plaster is a bit messy (that stuff is heavy!) and, if you like plaster, replacing it with d'wall is a disappointment.
*Andrew, tmeg, toolbear, The hot & cold water pipes come up through the floor, but the waste-water pipe comes through theplaster wall. Having done some small jobs previously,I know that plaster rubble is very heavy. The kitchenplaster is about 1" thick. For the small jobs, I usually put a piece of drywall into the hole in thewall, then use drywall screws to hold it in place.After that I slather on the plaster, smoothing it andsanding it as necessary. I understand what you'resaying about taking the walls down to the studs. Thatmakes it much easier to put in EMT, just like in newconstruction. On the other hand, I don't want to losethese plastered walls to drywall. So, I'm thinkingI'll break into the wall at points where the old BXis already installed. With the BX removed, I can thenexpand the already existing hole in the floor plateto accommodate the EMT. Of course, that only workswell for existing wiring. As I see it, the two trickyparts are : 1. Installing new outlets. Practical issue here is : How to cut out a minimal amount of plaster but still have a hole big enough so you can use hammer & nails to attach the new box to a stud ? 2. When running EMT to an existing box just above the cabinet counter, I think I may run into horizontal 2" x 4" pieces between vertical studs ( I think these act as firebreaks ). The kitchen has had ALL old cabinetry, sinks, andappliances removed - we're back to bare plaster now.New cabinets, sink, etc. are getting installed oncethe electrical work is done. Toolbear makes a good point about using the singleneutral line. When each outlet of a dual-receptacleare wired to separate phases, there is some cancellation ( lowering ) of current on the neutralline, owing to the phase-difference of the returncurrents. This also saves on material costs. On the other hand, a handheld DVM would indeed measure 240 VAC between the hot sides of a dual-receptacle wired in this way. Thanks for the advice you've given !
*An observation that took quite a while to occur to me: It's OK to maroon old wiring and pipes in the wall -- you don't have to root them out if they're safe. So I sawed through (via electrical box cutout) old sewer vent line (something the former remodeler overlooked) so the vent would stop "f*rting" into the basement every time the clothes washer emptied. Replaced drain & vent with PVC, patched into vent & sewer at logical point. New drain has very few turns, fast 45°+ drop, & only about 6" horizontal. What i couldn't easily remove is inert. Same with BX.1) Use "old work" plastic boxes. Hole size is no bigger than box. For heavy use outlets, I screwed the box to the stud. Oh damn, you can't do that with EMT. Oh well, just make the hole a little taller, fasten with screws and a long magnetic driver.I didn't worry about firebreaks; just blew in dense fire-retardent cellulose (for thermal & sound insulation) that pretty much would suffocate a fire. Very easy to fill wall from a small hole, fewer blades ruined cutting plaster, less plaster waste clogging landfills. (So New Yorkers can stuff their waste in there instead, great.)
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TB, AJ, AD, etal;
The safest way to run a 3 wire circuit is to wire a full square box. The left duplex is on the "A" leg & the right duplex is on the "B" leg. This avoids the 240 biter on the duplex for us fat fingered types.
The pigtailing is required not for the potential of 240 volting a duplex, but due to the current carrying nature of the neutral. I've been bit more by neutrals than hots. Even though code requires a handle tie on the breakers feeding 3 wire circuits to make sure the whole loop is dead, you have to remember to turn them off! The worst is when one leg trips, but the other leg is left hot and you start working on it assuming the loop is dead. Remember, a handle tie will not trip the second breaker (trip free handles). Common trip is needed for that and the safest way to use 3 wire circuits.
Try tangling with the "B"(i***) phase on a delta service sometime. That nasty thing runs about 160 - 180 volts to ground.
JE
*Ed.. If you are so intent on keeping the plaster then I guess it will stay. Also if you are intent on using EMT then you will use EMT (Never talk a customer out of what they want it will always come back on you). So now that we know you are going to do those 2 things then here is what I would do ... Buy yourself a good sawzall with about 20 good blades because the plaster will wear the blade down VERY fast, then I would channel the walls from floor to the first new box you are going to use (prferrably that range box with the 1 inch home run pipe) then channel to the various openings for your branch circuits. We can discuss what is going into the 1 in. later just want to get your mind set on how your going to get into you walls first. If you do the channeling then you can use 4 sq boxes and then plaster rings. As far as this 3wire circuit goes that you are so intent on having I think that if you use 2 recpts in same 2 gang plaster ring box and use a 2 pole 20amp breaker then you will have it. I hope this helps it is not the way I would do the remodel because most every one I do the Contractor (general) strips the walls making it much easier for all the trades. I know it is a rough way to go initially but in the long run it saves time and money. (is'nt that the bottom line?). What about your lighting? switches? etc. lots of work without stripping walls and using EMT. Good Luck..Tom Meg
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tmeg, and all speed wanna be's,
The speedy kitchen redo method around here is to strip out the drywall/plaster horizontally from just below base cabinets to just above wall units....then redo electric to modern standards and perform any other mods...Very little three coat taping...A hole kitchen job can be done in a day with separate trades or three if done by one lead.
Blue speed remodelling,
J
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Adirondack Jack...You bring up a good point and I really do agree with you on it, the only problem is Ed wants to do this thing in EMT. Any other wiring method does'nt seem to flick his bic. I guess with all this info he has received he can now figure out how to do this job. It's really difficult to change his mind on EMT but then again it's his house and I wish him the best
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Toolbear;
Some locales do not permit Romex! New York City/Yonkers area
I agree with "over" wiring the kitchen. I will often install double duplex receptacles (4 "plugs") instead of one. Hate having to use a plug strip on a counter.
Regarding EMT. The rough out is something else. Exacting and time consuming. If done by the uninitiated it can be a real mess.
The most rewqarding part is pullin the wires and buttoning it up, knowing that the future is secure if any changes are needed.
Regarding the sub panel: If you have 8 circuits, you save 8 home runs. A 70 A subpanel is around $30-40, then you need a breaker on the main panel. The wire costs are a push. The savings is in labor. (Clients may like the though of "needing" a sub panel just for the new kitchen.)
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Adam,
Would the places that don't allow Romex also have big unions? Chicago? New York? Just wondering. It sure is popular in the West.
I prefer surface mounted EMT - as seen in Costco, Home Depot and the like, but most homes don't go for the industrial look.
It's certainly faster to pull that or MC than bend EMT so that's what they get in houses these days. My condo ('60s) was probably one of the last in EMT - and plaster.
ToolBear
*>BOOK - If you don't have it, buy B&D's Advanced Home Wiring. It's a great DIY book, excellent photos, and a fine section on kitchen wiring with pix and plans.<I second the above, but must add that Rex Cauldwell's "Wiring a House" (Taunton Press) is what you should read after the B&D has introduced you to all the important concepts, and before you get into a big remodel or rewiring.If I had to suggest only one, I'd go with Rex, unless one was a very new beginner. Buy both!
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Item #1 :
Will be replacing / upgrading all
kitchen electrical outlets, switches, and wiring. Old 2-wire receptacles are
to be replaced with 3-wire receptcles
and GFCI's. Old wiring is BX/Armored
type. Will replace this with new wires
contained in conduit. Walls are PLASTER.
All or most of the BX is accessible from
the basement. Would appreciate any
advice which would make the job easier.
Item #2 :
There will be several dual-receptacle
outlets in the kitchen. These will be
nominally 20 amp types. My wife says
she wants to be able to run the microwave ( about 13 amps ) AND her
electric tea-kettle ( 12 - 15 amps )
at the same time from a dual-receptacle
outlet. Of course, that would exceed the 20 amp limit.I think we could run
separate wires to each outlet of the
dual unit. Is this do-able ? What safety
issues are we looking at here ?
Thanks for your opinions and advice !