Have a new guy, well two months, who is starting to feel his oats
now when I am not on the job conflicts are arising
send him to one job with one of the other guys, they come back, other guy sasy to me ( in confidence) I cant work with that guy
gets bossy, avoids heavy work, questions a lot on how to do things ( which is ok, but they feel its to kill time)
sent to another job with anohter, same thing
but he comes across as a good guy when we are all together
however
around me he is ok, but according to others he mutters under his breath that I dont do things right ( note this is his first construction job and he was hired a s a laborer)
he has never been late to work, he has gone out and bought all the tools he needs for his nail belt , he has commented to others outside of the group that he likes his job ( so I ws told at church) he has a wife and two small kids in diapers
he mentioned the other day his family says he should get his own licence and go for it
unfortuantely around here, good help is hard to find
any ideas
Replies
I've had guys like that in my business. If both of the guys who are reporting to you that he's making these comments etc are reliable i'd can him before he does you damage with morale. Nothing worse than a snake in the grass... BTDT.
It sounds as though this fellow doesn't have the testicular fortitude to confront you directly, but his behavior says he's itching for a confrontation: bring it to him. Take him aside and have a calm and frank discussion with him concerning your expectations, his performance thus far, and the feedback you've been getting from others; his reactions ought to be informative, as should the feedback you get from others concerning his behavior after you've met.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
He sounds like poison to me - Always back biting and causing trouble. Guys like that rarely seem to improve.
I'd ditch the guy.
A: Both of them.
thanks guys
I just needed more imput from "friends" in the biz.
I do plan to take him aside tomorrow and talk, calmly.
I guess if there is a problem, this is the time
dont need any snakes in the grass
isa... try not to burn any bridges.. you can always fire the guy... but he may be a diamond in the rough in need of cutting and polishing
do you know anyone with good people skills ? ( my wife is one ).. ask their advice..
if you can turn this guy into an asset instead of an as* , the whole company can profit...
or , you can jettison him.... but , it sunds like your insticnt is to salvage the situation... good instinctMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
In general I'm a pretty conciliatory guy Mike, and would probably agree. But in my experience there are two traits that once shown can never reliably be broken, backstabbing and stealing. I've unfortunately had a number of employees over the years who have done both and without exception despite all the sworn oaths of allegiance or reform they've all burnt me ultimately. Longer you wait the more likely you are to regret it, IMHO...
What you describe is common to me. Circumstance and timing are key elements in the mix I think, but the essential tactic is to maintain the workforce and moral--as someone else mentioned—make no bones about the pecking order. That’s all it is, I think, the guys fighting for the biggest teat.
hey, isa...
be sure and come back and tell us how the conversation went Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Me I'd try to save him. Take him aside and let him know his attitude is showing. As a newbie he needs to most of all have a good attitude. At that point the onus is on him. He either straightens up or is gone. You gave him fair warning. As you said good reliable help is good to find. And you won't feel bad about putting the guy out in the cold with a baby.
We put every new hire on a 90 day probation. We tell em that is to find out if we like them. But also tell them it's to see if they like us. Both ways.
Thought I would be the devils advocate for a moment. A lot of seasoned people forget what its like to be the new guy. Its hard, all I can remember is the other employees showing their oats and bossing around the new guy. The new guy gets every bit of sh*t work there is when the boss isnt around to keep the team reasonable. The seasoned guys can just as easily lean on a shovel. If the seasoned guys dont want to loose that bene, or the new guy doesnt seem its just, the seasoned guy can complain to the boss to protect his freedom. Seasoned guys figure they can try until they find one that doesnt have an independent thought in his head.
I fully believe everyone has to pay dues, but it shouldnt be cruel and unusual to lighten up the load of the experienced. You should find out his perspective, at least.
On the other hand he could be a toxic coworker and he may leave for the self licence thing and fall on his face. Ive met a few that think they are the beyond the need of education.
"he mentioned the other day his family says he should get his own licence and go for it"
lemme get this straight: a rookie hired on pretty much as a gofer is gonna hang out his own shingle? as what- a gofer services provider? and since when do you need a license for that?
i'd give him a little chat about the company food chain, in particular his lowly place in it, and if his attitude doesn't improve immediately, cut him loose. maybe a big shot of reality is what this guy really needs anyway. like parents tell teenagers- you better get out in the world while you still know everything. heck, long term you might be doing him a favor all around.
m
I wish I could offer more help, but I'm in a similar situation myself right now. I've got one bad egg. He's not a thief, and he's not impossible to work with, but he's just the weak link right now. None of my guys want to pair up with him. They also tell me that on the rare occasion that I'm not on site or am working elsewhere on the project, that he immediately becomes "the boss" telling everyone what to do, how to do it and not really getting much done at all himself. Basically he's lazy, talks smack about me when I'm not around, and likes to tell everyone else what they oughta be doing.
Around me, he is generally pretty good. But my lead guy is a pretty good judge of character and he's giving him the thumbs down. He's a bad seed and he brings morale down..... that creates a much slower work environment. I'm thinking it's time for him to go.
He's gonna be tough one to let go. I don't really know what to say to him. "I gotta let you go cuz you're lazy and nobody likes you". Hmmmm, I'm thinking I'm going to have to do better than that. Everyone else that I've let go of in the past has made it very easy for me. I kinda just want to run him into the ground, but I know thats the wrong thing to do. Gonna have to have a talk with him, but I've been waiting until the holidays are over.... hate to get rid of someone right in the middle of Christmas.
On the bright side, his spot on the payroll will more than pay for my new machine..... and that machine seems to keep everyone's attitude on the good side. Besides.... it won't call in sick, run out of gas money on Wednesday, "borrow" my hammer.......
I hope Mike Smith is right in your case. My experience thus far is that bad attitudes and back stabbing aren't curable. The bad mouthing and bad attitude are usually a symptom of the problem and not the actual problem itself. It's usually a person who is unhappy with himself and lashes out at others. You talk to them and they nod their head and tell you what they think you want to hear.... then they go right back to their old ways.
Let us know how it plays out though and good luck to you.
brian.. in your case.. you can tell the guy ( last one in ... first one out ) that you are reorganizing your company to get ready for the future.. in framing.. machines can replace people.. to an extent
it seemed to me that isamenon's situation is different.. he needs employees..if he can turn this guy around , it will make his company stronger..win/ win
in your case.. it will only expand your overhead...lose/ loseMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Good points Mike, thanks. I'm still working on the whole "human relations" thing. <grin>. I don't like blowing my stack cuz I come of as a buffoon and feel like an a-hole. But it burns me when I feel like I'm getting taken advantage of by someone who's skating behind my back. The yapping behind my back I can deal with.... part of being the boss, maybe? But I'm good to the guys with the coin.... no need to milk me. It's important to me that when I let this guy go, I make my point clearly so he knows exactly why he got "cut".
What you said about replacing him with a machine is very true. The machine doesn't get lazy and runs the same way no matter who is watching it. Onwards and upwards! I'm thinking I'll stick to that truth and keep it short. Gracias mi amigo.
I like DP's and Mikes response the best.
After reading diesels post........this guy(newbie) has attached himself to you guys. Maybe he needs a dad. I know thats not your job, but maybe you can make that work for you.
Perhaps when the new guy comes on, don't put him under your wing inspite of your desire to keep an eye on him. Throw him right in with the crew and see how he does.
You hired me and I've been working right by your side for over 2 weeks, (I just got comfortable) now you throw me out to these guys..........oooooo, I'm scared, so I'm gonna act like an azzhole.
Just something to think about.
Eric
edit......I always figured that showing up was the biggest part, after that I can work on ya a bit!
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Edited 12/28/2004 5:56 pm ET by firebird
Start the conversation with; "Not including today, how long have you worked for me" <grin> then ask him to write out, in 25 words or less what he believes his job description is. His answer and his attitude will lead you to the next step.
your mileage may vary,
Jim
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Just to be difficult and offer the flip side of the coin ....
coupla years ago I decided to go from self employeed to employee.
Hooked up with a GC that I kinda/sorta knew for a coupla years ...
I went in as his 3rd "lead" ...
he had just fired his last 3rd guy ... then I heard that guy had quit ... so ...
But the other 2 leads ... had been with him some 18 and 20 years. Can't be that bad a guy to work for, huh?
For a coupla weks I get bumped back and forth between helping out the other 2 leads ... brothers ... totally different guys ... one was real outgoing .. the other real quiet .. both very good carps .... thought I'd gotten along with both of them ...
Until ... I ws set off on my own jobs with a helper who'd been there for 4 or 5 years ... started hearing things from the helper about how the company really worked ...
Seems that "3rd" position had been open pretty much the whole time he'd been there ... seen about 3 guys a year either get fired or quit. Said about half were junk .. about half seemed OK guys ... but all got talked bad about by the two brothers.
They set ya up then gang up on ya ... they did pretty much the same to each other behind their backs too ... but I guess always hearing 2 against one was enough for the owner ...
He never figured out that after how many years maybe the problem is his two FT guys letting someone else join in on the fun ....
That was going on 4 years ago .... I still run across his ad in the Help Wanted section of the paper every coupla months ...
I got smart and started looking 4 weeks into it and left after 6 weeks ...
Got welcome into a good company ... little bigger so harder to have the bad apple spoil the bunch ... but did run into the same kinda personality in one of their leads ... I'd been tipped off by everyone ... even the Project Manager ... so all he did was annoy me when we had to work together ....
But those guys that hate the new guy are out there.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
issy- is there anyway you could take this guy, and send in by himself for a coupla weeks , punch lists,tray cielings etc. stuff that needs knowledge and a self starting attitude . see how he does with the task ,progress ,cleanup, so forth and see if you can register a change in attitude and would cull him from any laying blame on others and maybe there's a place you can utilize him . there are rogue workers who do great work and are best for 75% be by them selves. and any lofty ,bullsh!t behavior takes the guess work out of it for you , and what to do with guy......b.."expectations are premeditated resentments"
1) called a friend who is also a former co-worker, this is a pattern
(did not know friend knew him until the other day)
2) pulled him aside and we talked ( his answers , take for what its worth)
says he has a bad back ( never told me that up front) so he is avoiding heavy work
promised his wife he would not get up on a roof
has brought his brother in law to the job site after hours, his brother in law is a contractor, and he says I am doing things wrong, so he was just repeating this,
his brother in law does less then 500k a year. Im not much better , but 500k I would be out of biz
his wife says he lacks "balls" and needs to assert himself and "aspire" to better things
thus the family says, go on your own you can do better
and lastly " construction is just hard labor, and I don twant to spend my whole life doing constuction, I want to be the lead person and/or sell the jobs, let others build them"
anyway
my responces
should have told me about your back
I d enjoy talking to yor brother and seeing what tips he can offer, but until then , shut the furp up
aspire to better things, hey is there something better then this ????
hard labor..........duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
if you didnt know that go to McDonalds
just kidding on the duhhhhhhhhMcdonalds thing
actually I was very polite
and in the end told him that everyone has to chase their dreams
, this is my dream, so I wont be hurt if this si not what he wants
if he needs to go , see ya
I'da said ... Looks like U and the bother in law can run off and go be rich together ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
totally agree...vaya con dios..... he's a slouch, get a lull and dont worry about the headaches good luck.....b."expectations are premeditated resentments"
Edited 12/29/2004 8:34 pm ET by the bear
After that latest interview, I would tell him that since he wants a job doing sales and management, and I need a laborer, and his back makes him incapable of being a laborer, that he is free to find the sort of work he is looking for. Goodbye and no hard feelings.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You handled it very well.
One Question:Did you pull the trigger on him or leave it up to him to decide it's time for him to go?
You know what needs to happen.
"I will never surrender or retreat. " Col. Wm. B. Travis, The Alamo, Feb. 1835
Attitude is a learned behavior.With that said, I would make him think long and hard about his future.Work him hard, thank him for his efforts at the end of every day, and see how long he can hold out before he quits. He may just surprise you.
Personnel is one of the biggest hassles of owning any business. The second biggest is clients. Get rid of both of them and work would be a blast. But seriously, this is a gofer. It's good that he was so frank to you, telling you in his own words that he doesn't want to do the job and that he thinks he's too good to do the job you're paying him for.
But he's a gofer. This whole episode is worth about 10 minutes of your time, tops. If it takes more, it's just not worth it. If he was your lead, then maybe treat him like your wife (only better). But he's a gofer, and the last thing any business owner needs is the lowest man on the totem pole causing problems.
BTW, he's bringing his brother in law to your job site to critique your work? Nice.
SHG
then maybe treat him like your wife (only better).
Gonna let your wife read that? Hope you know a good laywer.I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
and lastly " construction is just hard labor, and I don twant to spend my whole life doing constuction, I want to be the lead person and/or sell the jobs, let others build them"
Isamemon, your "problem" is a classic example of the dilemma that faces small construction crews.
If you want to expand, you will need ambitous employees. Some of your employees will need to love wearing the tools. Some of the employees will need to love to lead. Some will need to love to sell.
It sounds like this guy wants to be a supervisor and or sales agent. It also sounds like he might need people skills. Or, it might mean that your crew views him as a threat to their cozy situation.
My gut instinct was to immediately tell you to get rid of him because of "back problems", then I remembered I have a "back problem" and I could probably be very effective at most construction sites, as long as we all work smart....
I once hired a person that wanted to "learn construction so I could go on my own". I looked at his ambitous attitude as a strength, not a weakness. I'm now partnered with him.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
His attitude worked better for a bout two days
walking papers now
thanks all
tell him to go for it and buy the five thousand in tools he needs to go on his own, then see what he says.
Ill let him find out on his own, but he should have agood idea on tools as he sees what I have and he loves Home Despot
how do ya get by for 5K???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
He figures he could forgo your 400 foot #6 extension cord! Roar!
be electrified
but what about all the other toy... er.... tools ya GOTTA have...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Even though this wasn't my thread, I offered up my situation with a troublesome employee to the conversation. Though I'd give an update on how things turned out....
I ended up pulling him aside and letting him know that I was seriously considering letting him go. He seemed puzzled. I explained that I've been getting reports that his work ethic was less than desirable when I wasn't around and that I didn't feel that he was a team player. I also explained to him the sort of crew I was trying to build and what I need from him in order for him to fit in with this plan. Thought I kinda put the ball in his court, so to speak.
Well he was on his best behavior for a day or two. Mid week, two weeks ago we were wrapping up a house that I framed. It was about 1pm and we had maybe and hour or so of work left. I grabbed this employee and pulled him aside. We needed more shots for the Hilti so I wanted him to run down to HD and pick some up and then grab a couple pizzas and sodas for everyone on the way back. I handed him my company credit card (I know, big mistake, but I've know him for three years) and handed him the keys to my truck. He said he'd rather take his own truck... no problem, right?
While he was gone my credit card company called to let me know that there had been four charges on my credit card in the past hour. (They called because the card is rarely used). I asked them for the types of businesses the charges came from. Two from a food establishment, one for a warehouse type store, and one from a gas station. Hmmmmmm.
When he came back I didn't say anything to him.... figured I'd let him come to me. He didn't. I called that evening as I didn't want to chew azz in front of the whole gang. He denied stopping anywhere other than HD and the pizza joint. I asked him why there were two charges on the card from the pizza joint. He told me he bought himself some smokes but forgot to let me know... said he'd give me the cash tomorrow. Then I asked if he stopped anywhere else.... nope. Told him about the gas station charges and he told me that he deserved a fill-up for using his own truck.
Whatever.
He made it very easy for me. Seems like they all do... sooner or later. Give 'em enough rope and they hang themselves.
Thanks for the follow up. Sometimes it works but alot of the times it doesn't. How the heck did he figure you weren't going to see the charges on your monthly statement?Who Dares Wins.
Probably knew he was gonna be gone by then.... I'm thinking he gave up right around that "talk" I had with him.... even though I thought it went fairly well.
Easy come, easy go.
Diesel, I made the mistake of handing my card to an employee that I had known for years.
$2500 later I learned a big lesson.
I got the 2500 back, with 18% interest but the most intersting lesson was dealing with the credit card company. Don't ever tell them anything! It would have been much easier to simply tell them that it wasn't my signature and I wouldn't pay...case closed.
I still give my card to my trusted employees...I don't have any that are drinkers anymore.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Here's my lesson from the school of hard knocks. A few years back there was a fella who used to walk our neighborhood (all industrial) going door to door picking up janitorial work etc. I used to give him work, a couple times a week and this guy was good. Very polite, worked like a dog, A+. He started working for us fairly regularly, and when winter came I'd drive him home. Met his family, nice folks, Mom lived with them, real salt of the Earth types. Well, this went on for about 8 months, he was working about 20 hrs a week with not so much as a blip.
Time came when I wanted to paint our interior, so I gave him 50 bucks, told him to go to Sears in my car and get rollers, paint, etc. An hour... no Ronnie... two hours, three...four... I call a friend at the PD. Nope, no accident reports but he can't list the car as stolen because I gave him the keys. Long and short of it... (although the long version makes a great story) it turns out he was a crackhead who had been clean for months. He used the 50 bucks for crack... then traded my car to his dealer for more. In the end I got the car back (told you it was a long story) after a little song and dance, but that's a story for another thread ;)
Some day we have to start a thread about crack heads we've known. I've got a brother inlaw that has pulled some real wild stuff all in the name of scoring crack.Who Dares Wins.
but that's a story for another thread ;)
We have time....
paul, that's funny. I almost woke my wife up laughing out loud!
I'm in for the long version when you have time to tell it..
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
OK, just remember you asked for it. I'll try not to set a ecord for the longest post;)
Well, since I knew where this guy lived, after work I went to his home and told his wife and Mom what had happened. They started the whole "Oh Lord... you didn't give him money?, oh Lord Lord..." And explained to me that this guy had once been the head of maintenance for an entire school system and had lost it all to crack. Had gone so low as to steal his parent's air conditioners out of their windows to sell for crack.
I went home, got my Glock, put on a jacket and had a friend drop me off in Crackville, where I just walked loops around the crackhouses. I imagine a large crew cut guy with a bulge under his jacket shrieked "cop" which I'm sure is the only reason I'm here to tell the story. After a while I noticed a young kid sitting on the steps of a house for a long time, a lookout I assumed, so I went up to him and asked "hey, you know a dude named X?" He said he did so I gave him 20 bucks and said tell him Paul's looking for him and isn't leaving till he finds him. About 10 minutes later who's walking down the street but Mr X. He was a mess, stoned, crying, begging forgiveness, etc. This is when I found out about what had happened. he explained he had traded my car to KSI, a large drug gang in New Haven. I called my friend to come back for us, and told X he would show us where my car was.
We drove into a scene from a movie, literally throngs of guys walking around in the streets buying and selling, and obviously unhappy with our presence. X had to roll down his window and vouch for us. Halfway down the block, there was my Jeep parked in the driveway of a house who's porch was packed with ummm chemical entrepeneurs. I had my buddy take X home, and called the cops to explain the situation. I waited a few hours, sure they would leap into action... nada. Called again... it's a busy night, we'll get to it... a few more hours...nada. Finally fell asleep and when I woke up called again, and found out that with the shift change, no one knew diddly and I had to start all over. At this point, it was apparent this wasn't a high profile issue.
I called some friends from my misbegotten youth, and five of us (all with carry permits) piled into a car and drove back to the house. All the businessmen were apparently asleep so I knocked on the door, and when one answered through the peephole I told them why I was there. (I should mention the car had an alarm with an ignition kill and they had the only remote for it). The door opened a crack, and he expressed ummm doubt that I would be leaving with the car. I gestured to my friends and explained why he was mistaken. The door slammed, and there was some muttering inside for a moment. The peephole opened and my keys were chucked out.
What became of X? Well, I sponsored him to get into a rehab program. I got periodic updates of his progress, he graduated in a few months and about a month after release, came to see me at work... to sell me some stolen skis. Haven't seen him since...
Well handled, amazing story. Again glad all worked out. DanT
Literally everyday day in the local paper here in the backwoods of nowheresville, Ohio is an article about arrest for crack or busting a meth lab. Bloomin' epidemic it is.
PaulB has ballsSphere, not greencu, invented the cyberwedgie."
LOL... Rez... I just did a "what theeeeeeeeeeee???" when I read the fine print.
Thanks for the compliment...
Paul, your story is great! Mine is so lame compared to that...I didn't even need a gun!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. According to him I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Good story. Heck that took as long as the short version.Who Dares Wins.
wow paul, youre a good writer, that was addictive to read; really painted a picture-->
measure once
scribble several lines
spend some time figuring out wich scribble
cut the wrong line
get mad
Thanks guys...
Nice to feel I can add to the entertainment value here ;)
had to get rid of a similar employee what i told him was " don I don't know how I can do without you but come monday morning i'm going to find out"
PS he told another employee he thought he was getting a raise but was let go in the neatest firing he ever saw
You beat me to it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!