I generally post on Knots, but felt this question was more appropriate for Breaktime, so I’m hoping a few of you can help me out.
I have a 20+ year old linoleum kitchen floor. The linoleum is still in good shape, but it looks horrible and is terribly dated. I’m currently a student, so my wife and I don’t have money to put down new flooring as we’d like. However, I do have a TON of pine (in various dimensions) that I could cut to 3/4″ planks and tongue and groove for flooring.
I realize that pine is less than ideal for flooring because it is not as hard as oak, maple, tropical hardwoods. However, my wife and I figure that even if this is a DISASTER, we can rip the whole thing up and lay a cheap piece of linoleum over the old floor and still improve our current kitchen.
So my question is: 1) Can I lay the wood floor right over the old linoleum (no tears or holes in the linoleum – just general wear), and 2) is there anything I need to be wary of in making my own wood flooring?
Replies
Pine is not completely untenable as a floorcovering - it just wears quickly, and is not recommended for areas of heavy use, or heavy equipment. If you put it directly over your floor, how will you handle the floor-height change at transition areas? Thats what you want to consider when retrofitting a thicker flooring. Also, will you be able to determine floor joist locations, for nailing purposes?
Be careful when removing the old flooring, if you decide to go that route, since you're not sure of the age, and some of the older floorcoverings contained asbestos.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Asbestos. Sheesh. I didn't even think of that. We believe the flooring is original to the home, built in 1985. We had only thought of recovering the old linoleum, not ripping it up.
The only area where I can see the thicker flooring becoming an issue is with the dishwasher. There would be no room for thicker flooring, so we'd have to figure out a way to butt the flooring against the diswasher but still allow it to be removed if need be (??). The fridge and range all have room to raise up a bit.
There is a crawl space under the kitchen where I can measure off to mark for the joists. One of the reasons I had considered leaving the linoleum down was for moisture barrier, but is it necessary with the crawl space underneath or would it be better to pull up the linoleum altogether and lay down something better?
I can't see any problem with going over the original floorcovering. And I'm pretty sure they had stopped using asbestos in flooring by 1985, so I wouldn't be too concerned about it, either way. Maybe others with more specific info could add their insights. Sounds like a feasible project, post some pics if you get a chance! (I've always liked the patinated look of weathered pine flooring, btw)."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
As far as transition areas: there is only one transition into the dining room. The dining room is carpeted currently and probably a good 1/2" raised above the linoleum. And if the pine flooring works in the kitchen, I'd probably tear out the carpeting in the dining room and extend it through the dining, living, and down the hall to the bedrooms.
That leaves you with the dishwasher....anything stopping you from removing the floor cabinets and flooring all thr way over to the wall with the cabinets, other applicances and dishwasher then sitting up on the new flooring? (or 3/4"plywood)
Once you get by that hurdle, I could give you some advice on homemade flooring, as I did that once.
Pulling out those cabinets would be an ordeal, but doable. Of course if I raise the cabinets, then I'll need to resize the backsplash. I was planning on building new cabinetry, so maybe I'll do that before I put in the flooring. Then I can install the flooring and cabinets at the same time.
What advice do you have for homemade flooring?
The machining process for tongue and groove is simple, given the right machinery and set-up. We used an old shaper with a regular set of high speed steel T&G bits. Should have sprung for carbide, as we had to stop and re-sharpen a few times during the run, and that changed the dimensions a bit. I suppose you could use a fairly heavy-duty router, T&G bits, and router table set up as well.
The pine will open and close a bit with the seasons, thus the purpose of the tongue & groove.
The point is, that the millwork shops that do T&G flooring in production have really industrial strength machines and bits, and so can do close tolerance fairly quickly. To duplicate that with a home-made setup is gonna be tough, but doable with a bit of screwing around. If you have lots of stock (and time) to play with, go for it.
And then you always could just face screw it, plug it, and get used to the variances and irregularities. I call it "country floor" versus a true T&G edge nailed, sanded and finished in place "city floor".
I have had both types of flooring in pine (I didn't install either) and I recommend doing the T&G if you can. It really helps with the gaps and with unevenness.To do end grain blocks, I think you need at least a full 2" X 4" to begin to look good. Something like 3" X 6" is nice. Of course you can also mix and match, like patio paving stone. Of course, this is all just my aesthetic considerations...
Just as a by-the-way (not what you'd want here), I've heard of folks making a floor from pieces of wood cut into short lengths (3/4" or so) and then glued down with the cut edge (end grain) up. Pack tightly and then "grout" with some sort of epoxy-like glop. Finally sand and varnish.
This is similar to some old-time industrial floors. Produces a sort of butchers-block appearance.
happy?
Jay,
If the pine is dry enough, you could just fasten it down through the face. Screw it and plug the holes. It is an extremely tedious way to install a floor, but would seem to me to be less trouble than milling T's and G's into it. It will open up a bit unless the boards are quite narrow.
Ron
Would a half-lap joint work rather than T&G?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I see no reason why you can't over lay the existing unless it has humps and dumps.
I also see no reason why fabricating a FF from your own stock is not feasable..A T&G router set cost me about a 100.00 many yrs ago..a wedge T&G is what I have and it works very well with seasoned stock, and the time spent in preparing the material prior to milling.
I'd suggest you invest in a few well made feather boards ( time or money, you pick) and a healthy allowance for waste..set up, etc.
Now going to the previous posters suggestion of End Grain Flooring..man, I am all over that ( in a good way) ..I will be using white, red and a little swamp oak as my Kitchen floor. By purchasing 4x6, 4x8, and 4x10, from the mill nearby..I can "tile" my kitchen in a pleasing layout.
I'd say yer good to go, if you have the basic subfloor in order, and you may want to search the archives here, if in doubt as to your approach.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Now going to the previous posters suggestion of End Grain Flooring..man, I am all over that ( in a good way) ..I will be using white, red and a little swamp oak as my Kitchen floor. By purchasing 4x6, 4x8, and 4x10, from the mill nearby..I can "tile" my kitchen in a pleasing layout.
how do you fasten the blocks to the floor? how thick will you cut each tile/block? & how will you cut it?
I've been thinking the same thing except i have alot of cut off heart pine beams 2ft to 6ft long most are 12" x16" ... I've thought floor? countertop? stuff was grow'n when Columbus got here and when you cut it it still smells of pine... I have to use it somewhere just where & how...
thanks
p
I'm doing this as much to learn as I am to improve the floor. Like I said, if it turns out like crap, I can rip everything up and lay some peel and stick or cheap linoleum later. I'm not really trying to save a few bucks because vinyl tiles would be cheaper than what I'm doing.
I love to be in my shop. I love learning about how wood works. And I love the look of wood flooring. So this is for the experience moreso than to drastically improve the resale value of the home.
We'll be in the home for probably another three years. I consider this my "practice" home. I don't mind screwing a few things up here so I can learn and not make the same mistakes when I plan/build/remodel/purchase our dream home later in life.
So what is the value in T&G? I always thought it helped with stability and to hide the flooring staples. My planks will be about 3" wide. I wouldn't mind the butt joint, but will it separate too much in the winter? I'm also curious as to why not a half lap as suggested above?
And to the wise poster who suggested I do something more time efficient and spend my time studying - I'm currently working on two graduate degrees (JD and MBA) - this is my only break from studying! (But I can appreciate your experience :) Thank you!!
So what is the value in T&G? I always thought it helped with stability and to hide the flooring staples. My planks will be about 3" wide. I wouldn't mind the butt joint, but will it separate too much in the winter? I'm also curious as to why not a half lap as suggested above?
T&G keeps the edges at the same level when the wood moves, so you don't trip or stub a toe.
We did a pine floor recently and biscuited the ends since only the sides were t&g - it really makes a difference unless you want the rustic look.
Treat every person you meet like you will know them the rest of your life - you just might!
Since we're talking about the endgrain floor, I wonder if you could glue these planks down, rather than nail?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
If you're working on your JD, then I suggest you clean your floor with naptha and quickly (while still moist) torch it lightly with a propane flame to get a real nice effect.
Never mind. Don't do that. See, I'm not a lawyer and my conscience wouldn't let me post without a retraction.
P
I have a tape of an old Bob Vila show where he(or I should say his floor guy) lays end grain flooring.
He used some sort of thinset or mastic, dont remember, been a while, and grouted with saw dust and varnish mix.
The floor looked great.
I have a bunch of oak beams that I tore out of a barn and plan on doing and end grain floor in a kitchen someday.
Doug
I'd be glueing w/ Bostic adhesive ) I mean I will be,over pre laid plastic(..'I am cutting the 4x at 1.5'' thick, I set the door up to allow.
The grout is gonna be sawdust and BLO with J.dryer added.
I love the look of endgrain flooring, my substrate is ? but what the hey,,,I ain't flippin, and can fix any hiccups as they arise.
BTW..great project ya got in the works,,wish I was closer to lend a hand.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Here are couple shots of an endgrain floor I put in for a customer a few years ago. Cut the tiles from 6x6s. Piece of cake.TIPI,TIPI,TIPI!
thanks... if you are ever near memphis... drop in... i can usually put anyone up my lakehouse is only 30min into arkansas and doesn't get used much...my next question is... i hate to think I'd have to cut these 12" x16" every 1.5" with a chainsaw...
p
ok ..there was an old poster from Alaska I think..she did the endgrain cuts w/ a bandsaw or had it done for her..at a mill yard.
My take is I got a Bosch 12 slider.just for the floor ( yeah right)..my mill nearby can't/ won't dry the thickness..so I be stickered out back under tarp ( on and off, depending on windage)..patience is virtue, but ...............fill in the blank
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I've done 1000 sq ft in pine (the cheap stuff bought from a big box retailer before I knew better). It can be done. You don't mention size, but a kitchen might be only 50-100 sq ft so - like you say - what have you got to lose. The stuff I bought I ripped to 2 1/2" wide and it wasn't well seasoned so it shrunk a lot - up to 1/8" per board in the winter. Maybe that won't be a big issue with you. Also would help to rip them thinner. I would stick to T&Ging and hide the nailing in the conventional manner. In such a small space you could even just do that by hand and avoid the fancy nailer. Lay it over felt paper over the linoleum. I just did the T&G on a table saw. Tedious and less precise than a fancier set-up, but it works.My floor wound up costing less than $1/sq ft in materials (12 years ago) and, although the imperfections bugged me because I knew where every bad spot was, everyone else who saw it raved about it.Good Luck.
Back to the dishwasher .
Is there a style above it ? If there is picture removing 3/4s.
There was a thread here we just finished up on the subject.
Pull the dish washer and measure the heights to see what you have to play with as it wil slide out right now after unsetting two screws at the top [also the flange plate at the bottom] provided the lines are long enough as they are supposed to be.
They also make a shorter model but its more expensive.
You dont need a style at all above the DW.
Tim
Jay - just a thought: my local planing mill charges .20/ lineal foot for milling your lumber. They did 100 s.f. for me in less than 15 minutes - one step from rough sawn 1x6's to t&g, planed both sides and relief grooves in the back.
If this is not an option for you, the countersink screw and glue option right over the current floor would work.
a. currently student
b. married
c. no cash
High probability that after you finish school you may move somewhere else. Resale value of the house will not be much different if you T&G or simply butt joint and face nail and fill. T&G will likely shrink as much as butt joint. In similar situation decades ago, would have opted for the butt joint, for resale you can slap on a layer of better looking self stick that will alst the new owners 4 or 5 years till they know what thyey want.
you can slap on a layer
I can see the future question:
"We just bought this cute older house, and we desperately need to do something to the floor. It looks like self-stick vinyl tiles that are very hard to remove, and they're stuck to this really cheapo pine flooring that looks like it was home made, and then yet another layer of sheetvinyl that won't come up with any kind of stripper, and finally this beautiful old hardwood floor. Does anyone have any suggesstions as to how we can take off all this mess?"
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You could paint the linoleum. Lots of possibilities.
I spent 8 years heating with wood only in the early 80's. I spent every Sat. in the winter cutting, splitting and hauling wood. Later I realized I could have worked in town on one Sat. to buy the pay the electric heat bill and had the other 3 off.
Moral of the story is that it sounds like you are taking on alot of work and problems to save a few dollars. The milling, T&G, planing, installing, sanding, the DW, your wifes's patience and finishing costs are all going to add up. Go get some nice looking peel and stick and spend your time on more productive things like studying.
That's the perspective of age. But I did some pretty crazy things too when I was young and poor.
That's the perspective of age. But I did some pretty crazy things too when I was young and poor.....
guess i have yet to learn your lessons but i'm try'n really i am...
it's not just the money you save doing these things it's the lessons you learn... things that really do shape you, it creates and lets you see value in the things you and others do... even a total disaster project has value...
If i was to guess all the time you spent cutting wood for heat was time you had to think and reflect and now you have the well earned advice to give others... this has value...
I'm constantly being told by friends & family... if you'd just hire more people you could be finished with that...(whatever "that" may be)... they have yet to understand... I do what I do because i like it... I like make'n every call I like designing on site I like changing things to suit the design better... all these things I've learned by doing what i could have paid others to do...
as for your floor... I did my sunroom in face nailed pine 1 x 12 it's what my wife wanted... put em down on 15lb felt and with ringshank nails..nailed em down.... she then painted and put clear poly on em... yes they dent some but thats "character" or an "endearing feature" the boards had been in a warehouse for 5-6 years so moisture content wasn't an issue for me... she's happy so I'm happy... put your floor down and the next person who owns your house will post here and ask how to remove the dishwasher without tearing up our great pine floor....
p
Jay
theres absolutly NO reason you need to T&G the planks although I would make some relief cuts in the back side.
I did my "entire" house with wide plank eastern white pine flooring well over a year ago with zero problems and next to no movement and I'm in NY where we have seasonal change. I glued and nailed every plank down to my advantech subfloor. USed PL Premium glue and rose head nails, nailed about every thirty two inches. Face nailed! Looks awesome.
I then made up my own stain and then three coats of matte' poly. Looks GREAT! and as I said its been over a year with zero issues.I left the planks stickered in each room to acclimate for a good month which was probably longer than I needed to. Just take a moisture meter to your planks and check it that way.
Have fun bro...It'll look awesome
andy
I tend to agree with your wife and the others that see this as a money hole with low odds of a good result. There are better ways to get a low cost floor. As a learning experience, you can get that with smaller projects that have a higher chance of success.
Having said that, if you want to make a good wood floor take a look at what the mills are producing. You'll want to come close to their quality and wood selection.
What kind of pine do you have exactly? Do you have enough for the entire floor? What's the moisture content and how close is it to matching the conditions within the house? What kind of tools do you own? Without at least a planer and router table I'd say there's little reason to even attempt a decent t&g floor.
On the flip side, we've worked on a $1m mountain home with the most horible pine floors you can imagine--by design. They wanted to duplicate a rustic face-nailed wide plank pine floor with wide shrinkage gaps. The floor was face nailed with a high moisture content.
I have all the basics: router (with bits), planer, tablesaw, jointer, miter saw, etc. I even have access to a floor nailer (my brother-in-law is building his home and laid his own floors - albeit milled flooring, not home made). I have a sample of professionally, well milled, oak T&G flooring to provide a template for dimensions, relief grooves on the underside, etc. My wife is actually very supportive; I have a decent track record for taking leftover scraps and making something decent - I took an old porch and deck and turned it into a queen bed. The wood was full of nail holes, stains, etc. but it finished up nicely and looks incredible now, even if the wood itself is not ideal furniture wood. It has character and value beyond a "queen size bed".
I like the idea of something a bit more "rustic" although I don't want the house to turn into a Country Cottage. Character is good, but not if it equates with poor workmanship. I don't mind if the wood is distressed, knotty, or imperfect, but I do want to avoid gaps, warpage, cupping, and bowing once the floor is laid, and I want to prepare and install the floor well.
I plan on stickering my wood inside the house for two weeks prior to installation (hope to install by late March). It is currently inside my garage (unheated) and I am in Utah (averaging 20's - 30's temp lately). I have a humidifier hooked up to my furnace and we try to keep the humidity level in the house somewhat constant throughout the year. I understand winter is the best time to install a wood floor, and with the relief cuts in the back, wood movement should be minimalized, right?
Stop agonizing and go for it. Putting solid wood flooring down is one of the most rewarding things an accomplished DIYr can do. From what you say about your experience and tool collection, you'll do fine.
Let us know how it works out.
Stop agonizing and go for it.
Yup all keys on for system start up .
Its a go .
He will need a digital camera and lots of time posting us pics . We will need pics !
In fact we are missing some right now of the current floor and the project lumber . So lets get busy out there !!!!!!!!!!
Tim
It sounds like you are on the right track.
Feather boards were already mentioned, and that's a biggie when running this stuff through your router table.
Since this is a learning experience, picking up a moisture meter would be quite a good investment. You'll learn more about wood movement in a month with the meter than 4 years of guessing. Once you own one it's just not possible to not check every piece type of wood in your house.
You'll learn what levels are common for furniture, wall framing, floor framing, crawlspaces, decks, siding, storage lumber, old wood, new wood, wet wood, soft wood. You can check it in your shoes, you can check it watching the news. You'll check down low and up high--learning more than the other guy. Check wood you will--what a thrill.
I'm hungry for eggs and ham--gotta go.
Best of luck it sounds like your floor will turn out well. Many times it's not what someone says they can do that is a good indicator of how well the project will turn out, but rather how the secondary questions are asked and answered. Some will call it a test, but it's just the way many of us evaluate those in this industry. You passed as far as I can tell.
Being a former poor married college student I can understand your situation well. If for some reason the floor idea is put on the back burner (building furniture perhaps?) an untapped reasource for nearly free flooring is close by. Getting to know the flooring installers in your area will produce huge amounts of cut offs and short pieces of otherwise fine quality wood. Locally I've been told by an installer that their shop has a huge pile of things like Brazillian Cherry, oak, etc. just being sold as firewood.
I've seen a carpenter use small sections of various kinds of wood in a well thought out floor pattern that was very well done. He chose to stain it all a dark cherry color so the various types of wood would, overall, match in color. A person had to look closely to notice that three or four different woods were used side by side. He also used oil-finished ipe deck scraps for soffit, running perpendicular to the house that looked very nice indeed.
Cheers,
Don
PS I have one of those mba thingies, and it was a thrill working on the house of a retired CEO who was the captain of the ship and living one of the case studies we read back in our business policy class. Spending time with the guy taught me a great deal about how someone of his caliber functions on a daily basis. Quite a treat really. Quite a treat.
Jay,
I am also in the process of milling my own flooring. I only needed 150 sf of flooring milled.
I started out with red oak from my own property, had a portable mill rough cut it, then had it kiln dried, then sat in my shop for 2 yrs. I then started to run 170 sf through the joiner, followed by the planer, to the table saw for the final width of 3".
I then ran it back through the table saw putting a 1 degree bevel on all four sides, because if you look at commercial flooring, its beveled to keep the face tight. I could have kept the table saw run to once, but I was trying to get the widest flooring, while keeping waste to a min, so I did not decide on the width till I reviewed each board and decided 3" was the best option.
Now I am starting to put the T&G profile on it with a 3 hp router and table . I am going to use a Freud T&G bits.
I milled the wood to 13/16 so after its installed can sand to final 3/4. So far I have had no problems and have found it to be very enjoyable after my regular job. If your not in a hurry, do it yourself and do it right once.Your Pine floors will look very nice and will continue to do so with a little care.
I would estimate my final cost for the flooring from the portable milling, drying and I will pay a installer to do the final sand and finish to be about $ 1200.00
But I still have another 400 bf of rough red oak taking up floor space in my shop, and I hate red oak funiture.
good luck