Im working on the cabin and DW wants wooden screen frames . The old ones before looks like they used corragated fasteners that failed and some have corner Ls installed. I need to build three wooden screen doors also. The old ones used the above and finally it looks like even metal plating from Simpson.
Material; Looks like the old ones were yellow pine , non treated . Most all are rotted at the bottom where it meets the sash.
I was thinking about redwood or cedar , but its not very strong. I also thought about treated but it needs to cure a year before paint holds correctly in this climate . 65 percent realitive humidity. I took a treated fence down and have the fence boards and several are warped being 6 inches wide. Were talking dog eared fencing here 5/8s thick thats three years old and has been semi stained. I was thinking about running some of the best through the planner and ripping to 1 3/4s for window screens and 1x3s for screen doors. I was also thinking about dowels or bisquits and exterior glue but the bisquits arent weather resistent and neither are dowels. Seems all the screen doors Ive seen are pos built and sold through supply centers and not even treated or weather resistent wood. Some even look like douglas fir for crying out loud. There is a problem as I see it with making a thin framed screen door strong enough.
So, I figgured some of you have attacked this before and I would like your comments please.
Tim Mooney
Replies
I used Mexican Cedar. I think it is also called Spanish Cedar. Used 1/2" oak dowells and gorilla glue. I called around to get bids from (2) people who make wooden screens all the time and this was an acceptable formula with them. Mahogony was anther option.
Tim
No need to make the screens out of treated, I wouldn't if I found dry stuff.
Cedar or redwood would be fine, they aren't windows, you wont be opening and closing them.
Cant you get cypress in Ark. I think its better wood than cedar or redwood, plus a bit cheaper. And you can usually get clear wood, something you pay a premium for in redwood and cedar.
For screens you could do a simple half lap, the dowel method will also work fine.
You have to remember that as a screen it does not get the same use as a window.
I just reread your post, you have three doors, I would try to make these a bit stronger.
If you do dowels and gorilla glue they should hold up, I would do a mortis and tenon joint, but I think you will be OK with the dowel method.
Doug
I'm a little ignorant on the wood side but had the same experience you did about 5 years ago. Went to the local hardware store and the screen doors were crap. For $20 in 1x materials, plus primer and paint, I mortise & tenoned, then glued and doweled 1 screen door. Feels rigid, doesn't flex, just feels a little light but a lot better built than the crap in the store.
Have also made several screens the same way, and they're holding up great too.
Tim,
I would also suggest heart cypress if you can find it. Avoid the sapwood. I gotta say that I don't quite understand your "reluctance" to use doug-fir as I've always found it to be an excellent wood for outdoor exposure around here.....and it's strong and relatively light. Well, compared to white oak anyway.
Sometimes when I'm at the lumberyard and I think of it, I'll take a few minutes to scour the racks for nice clean tight-growth 1x & 2x stock. Not that uncommon to come across some that's just what I really want......vertical grain. On the truck it goes. Stockpile it for that project that will no doubt rear its head at me in the future. The big growth-ring stuff stays on the racks at the yard.
As far as joinery for your screens.....while mortise and tenon joints are still considered to be the standard of quality for these application, some folks don't have the tools to make that easily, so they need something else that will do the deed. I've also used both dowels and biscuits without problem from rot/decomposition. Call 'em experiments. Those are where I visit them frequently so I get to keep tabs on 'em. Been there 15 years now with no sign of any problems. Sturdy and sound as ever.
Here's how I did those. A simple butt joint was used and then two dowels (3/8ths) or two biscuits (#20) per joint spaced such that you can still place a screw between them. (No Piffin screws allowed) If you have a really big bottom rail, you could go to four wood fasteners. The glue was Titebond 2. It's very water-resistant and since you will slather the dowel or bisquit with it, it provides a water resistant coating to those as well.
I'll recommend that you then coat the rest of the mating surfaces in that joint with PL poly caulk or similar. Make sure to rub it well onto the end grain of the rail. Have your stile edge predrilled with a countersunk shank-slip hole and use that screw as your clamping device. Draw up the joint, remove excess caulk and move on. Check for square or maybe even a bit non-square depending upon the opening you need to fit...and then do what is necessary if anything to hold the window flat and true. Corner to corner diagonal clamp maybe. Shouldn't really need to if your stock was square and your saw was set square. You should be dead on the money without any coaxing. Leave the screws forever as joint reinforcement. Nobody can see 'em in there when the window is mounted and the nice part is they back out if you need to do a little planing. Then you can stick 'em back in.
I conjectured when I made these that the performance would have definite advantages over an old-time traditional thru mortise and tenon joint, as far as longevity goes. A thru M&T leaves the tenon end subject to sucking up water. That sets off an expansion and consequential compression setting inside the confines of the mortise. When things dry out again, there's a crack between the tenon and the mortise (like a loose hammer head) and so next time even more water can enter. So far, that conjecturing looks to be true, judging from how well these have held up.
I think you can safely build yours the way I did those, but make sure you keep all end grain primed and painted for the longest life expectancy.
I have those screens placed with storm window hangers and brackets. That allowed me to keep the bottom edge of the window suspended off the sill about an 1/8th or a tad more. If I were fitting them without those hangers, I'd place a couple of sheet metal screws in the bottom edge for 'em to sit up on........for the same reason. The water that gets thru the screen will need a free route out again so you'll also have to decide how you want to bump the bottom out a tad as well. Little screw heads down there on the windows might work, depending upon how your sills are built, etc.
As for the doors, I'd use a blind mortise and tenon, I think. About as deep as you can go while still leaving maybe a 1/2" bottom in the mortise. That should provide plenty of meat for any necessary planing and still keep the ends of the tenons tucked away from the weather.
If your windows were going to hold large heavy pieces of glass, I'd do the same there. But these frames you need are for screens.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/25/2005 8:52 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I'd probably be inclined to use cedar, as a decent compromise in terms of rot resistance, warp resistance, and stiffness. Redwood will work too. It depends a little on the width of the frame and the size of the opening -- you can use a softer, springier wood if the pieces are wide and the opening not too large.
An open mortise and tenon joint (finger on one piece, slot in the other) would probably be the best joint (easy to make, and strong), but you could go with a half-lap instead. Another fairly simple joint, is a mitered joint with a spline cut into the corner.
Dowels are a PITA to place accurately, and they really don't provide that strong of a joint. Biscuits aren't really that good for such a small joint.
Glue with resorcinol or urethane glue. (Resorcinol's not as messy and will probably produce a slightly stiffer joint, but it doesn't fill gaps quite as well as urethane, and hence isn't as forgiving of poor jointery.)
Make yourself some sort of jit for the glue-up, to assure that you hold the frame square while the glue sets.
There's always controversy, eh? Here I am to toss mine in the mix. <G>Both cedar and redwood aren't woods that take all that well to gluing/adhesives......comparatively speaking. The contained resins that inhibit rotting also confound good adhesion from gluing. Actually, the same holds true to some degree for cypress and DF, but IME redwood and cedar fare less well in this regard.While phenol-recorcinol is literally waterproof, the minimum temperature requirements and long cure times at this minimum temp are problematic in many shops and jobsites during the winter. Fall below that minimum or time span and big trouble is at hand. A glued half-lap joint out in the weather is asking for trouble. Cross-grain expansion and contraction. BTDT. Sometimes it works, frequently it comes "undone" from the oppositional forces within a matter of years. The greater the surface area of this cross-grain joint, the better the odds of failure from adhesive fracture. The more flexible the cured adhesive is....the better your odds that the joint will remain viable. Cured resorcinol isn't all that flexible. Titebond is more flexible when cured. I've had no problems with the screen windows I described and they see -20 F during the winter here and get soaked with rain and drenched in blazing sun during the 100 F summer temps. Zero problems with performance and consequently no reason to question the advisability of doing it again.Edit: General makes a dandy little self-centering doweling jig that has multiple-diameter interchangable bushings that are fixed distances apart. Using that jig, doweling two pieces together a piece of cake. Edit Again: I see what you're saying about a biscuit not really being applicable here. Not sure what would be reliable. Tim's talking about making screen frames that may end up 9/16" or 1/2" thick. ?? Yikes. I'm talking about frames at the conventional 1 1/8" thickness. 1/2" frames? I just wouldn't. Flimsy from the get-go. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 1/25/2005 10:11 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 1/25/2005 10:29 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
I have two under-deck doors that are at least 15 years old. These consist of an open frame with a decorative lattice and sunshade fabric behind that, to look like the rest of the under-deck treatment. They are approx 3x6 feet and consist of four pieces of 1x3 heart redwood lap glued with resorcinol, with the additional decorative members deck-screwed to that frame.When I built them I put turnbuckles on the frames, assuming that they would sag. But the turnbuckles are still hanging loose -- no sag in 15 years, and no sign of joint separation. (The clearance to jambs and sill is about 1/4".) One of the doors is opened quite frequently to get gardening tools out (a few hundred times a year). The other is opened a few dozen a year.I did have trouble with temps when I built these, as it was probably early November. (I remember having an ice storm and having to chip the ice off of stuff while working on it.) I ended up tenting the clamped-up frames and placing a milkhouse heater under the tent.
Interesting. What did you use as your corner joinery?My experience with using glued redwood in outdoor applications has been hit and miss, particularly when it involves a joint under stress. Choice of adhesive had a little bit to say about success and longevity, but it wasn't a huge factor from all appearances.I remember my first commission years ago using redwood in an outdoor application was the construction of an umpire's chair for a tennis court. Tall SOB, too. You be sittin' WAY up in the air. Lotsa torque on those joints. While the joinery held up well for maybe ten years or so, it eventually had to have those joints mechanically reinforced. The main problem areas were were the leg rails were half-lapped or let-in to the legs themselves. Didn't figure I could use a M&T joint there because of the dimensions of the parts, the general softness of redwood and it's relative propensity to split out or fracture. So half-laps was the call. They wanted this chair tall and yet lightweight so it would be easy for one person to move it about. Did what I could. It's still in use today some 30 years later.First time I used phenol-recorinol was to make a pair of custom waterskis.....many moons ago. That was learning experience for sure. I also let the temp fall about 5 degrees too low while I was gone for the night. Argh.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Like I said, simple lap joint (not even half lap). (That style of joint was chosen because it was most compatible with the decorative treatment.)I've used resorcinol with redwood in a number of cases (all exposed to weather) and never had a joint failure.I'll admit I have relatively little experience gluing cedar.
"Like I said, simple lap joint (not even half lap)."Sorry, I missed that. Duh.Got alot going on here this morning. :-)Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
It may make a difference that all of the redwood I've glued has been well-seasoned -- "aged" for a year or so. Redwood seems to have a fair amount of shrinkage in the first year.
Thanks every one
How big are these window screens, Tim?
I thought about commin and gettin yea for this post after what Luka said. <G>
Their 32 to 36 x 48.
Tim Mooney
At that size of screen and the intention to use thinner stock to boot.....I don't think you'll likely be able to tension the screening properly, or at least keep those frames from succumbing over time to the constant tension......... without adding some center pieces/braces, dividing those frame into four sections. One vertical and one hoizontal.Or maybe you already realized this and intended to do same. Probably so,....... so ignore me. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
'I don't quite understand your "reluctance" to use doug-fir as I've always found it to be an excellent wood for outdoor exposure around here.....'
I dont know where around here is , but here its poor choice out side . Now I wonder why you are high on it . We have a realitive humidity average of 65 percent . When something gets wet , it stays wet for a while. Constant moisture every day and really at night douglas fir rots out quickly. Pine untreated does too if its not under an over hang and even then paint doesnt last on it. Another poor choice for this area. Now if you were in California or Arizona where the humidity is non existent , then I could see it . Ive replaced plenty of western cedar that wasnt properly drained here. Ive got some rotten cedar on my house now that abutts a concrete porch. Its rotting 12 inches high. North sides are killers here. Masonite has to be elevated 2 feet and well drained. Concrete siding is the best thing that has happened here . Too much information. <G> Treated lumber seasoned and dried is a good choice . Redwood is good but isnt strong. Good enough for screens , but I question screen doors. Someone mentioned cypress and thats puzzels me . We grow the stuff boo coos here in the Eastern and Southern part of the state , but you wont find a stick of it for sale . We dont have it where I live , so its not accesssable. We do have Arkansas red Cedar or what is probably better known as white cedar. Thats in abundance here and is shipped . It gets very brittle in time and thats the biggest problem with that . It normally cracks in a moving installation such as a door. The only thing we use it outside for is fence posts. Ive seen some cabinets and paneling made from it , but its a strong statement . We ship it for cedar flake board and specialty lumber. Ive seen some houses sided with it but its not popular. The cedar chest is what its known for best.
"Or maybe you already realized this and intended to do same.
Probably so,....... so ignore me. <G>"
Are you kidding ? You wrote some good stuff here. I feel like Im in class !
Thanks ,
Tim Mooney
Tim, The T&G siding on my shop is fir. Been there since 1957. Still just fine. IMERC saw it when he was here although we didn't discuss the species of wood on the shop. We was too busy tryin'
to get him patched up from my attempts at electrocution and finger mashin'.Another example......All the cattle bunks on the farm were/are fir. These included both the hay bunks and the grain bunks. Now those grain bunks get the cracks in the floor filled up with grain bits in a hurry. Consequently they don't drain much or very well when it rains. You end up shoveling the water out as a rule. Some of those bunks have been there since about the time I was a kid. And we built more around '80 or so. The legs of those grain bunks and the hay bunks sit in cattle poop and water for most of the winter and spring. These have performed admirably. Occasional repairs once a decade to the fasteners, but not to the wood itself. Needless to say, none of them are painted 'er nuthin'. Meanwhile, the damn T-111 on another building erected in '74 is shelling badly on the south and west sides. Sure wish that had fir T&G on it instead. Vertical grain fir is a great wood for an exterior entry, too. Pricey these days though. I built all the balustrade parts for our front porch out of fir,,by choice. North side of house. Trees in yard that it keep that porch well-shaded when the sun might have a chance of drying things out. CCA steps and porch floor will grow algae and need to be pressure-washed each year. That's how damp it is in that location. Zero problems with the fir.You sure what they're selling you as Doug-fir is really Doug-fir?I agree with what you say about cedar and stressed structural puposes. Cracks/splits easily.From what you've described, maybe you should be considering some locust or osage orange for all things exterior around there. <G>Oh...and there's still a couple of old round wood water tanks around these parts. One is just up the road a piece and around the corner from our farm. Haven't personally seen that one filled with water since around '82/'84 or so. Been there forever and a day. Erected when they were filled via windmills. Guess what wood was the choice for most of these wood tanks around here. VG fir.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/27/2005 11:54 am ET by GOLDHILLER
Whoops , I messed up. LOL.
I called the old man at the lumber yard . He wasnt there but I spoke to his right hander. We dont stock Douglas except in framing lumber . It is usualy very long lenghts for rafters. The yard carries it up to 28 feet in 2x6s and 2x8s. . Its very straight lumber .
I asked about exterior uses and he said that Douglas has the highest rating for exterior siding . Its too high to sell here . I guess I was mistaking hemlock or spruce.
Thanks for correcting me . DUH me .
We would have used white oak or treated lumber for that barn and farm stuff.
So I could buy a board and use it for the screen doors?
Tim Mooney
So I could buy a board and use it for the screen doors?
You could do a lot worse. I've seen douglas fir on porches that dated back at least 100 yrs here. Another choice I've often used was walnut, particularly if it's to be painted. Much friendlier to work with. And it's local.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
In fact, see if there are any local sawmills or millwork outfits around. Visit and ask them if they have any wood to suggest. There may be a local wood (hemlock? buckeye? sumac?) that is just what the Dr ordered.
"Their 32 to 36 x 48."
Are these going over double hung wood windows, Tim? Or alluminum? Or what? That climate you live in, do you take the screens down and put up storm windows every year? Or will you maybe leave these in place once you install them?
That douuglas fir you have access to, can you get 5/4 stock there? 1x?
What tools do you have at your disposal? Table saw? Router? Random orbital sander? You pretty handy in the shop?
Over double hung wood windows. Screens stay at this point .
"What tools do you have at your disposal? Table saw? Router? Random orbital sander? You pretty handy in the shop?"
Ive got a full shop plus. Only thing I dont have is a shaper and probably a full selection of router bits for this project youre probably gonna lay on me . But yea, Ive got a nice shop thats equipped with multiples of tools. Im fair mebbe , Im not really a shop person. My shop holds a lot of equipment for job use . But I do keep an area for projects . I keep a shop saw and a scms on a long fence setting there all the time.
They said they had 2x6s and 2x8s . Ive got a 3hp table saw and a planner.
Tim Mooney
Edited 1/28/2005 7:32 am ET by TIMMOONEY52
Tim, If you're going after some of that DF, I'd try to pick some stock that's vertical grain…..or as near to it as you can find. Make sure you look at both ends of the plank. Might be VG one end and plain at the other. The VG will be more stable when the outside of the frame has the sun beating on it, or is being drenched with rain, while the interior side isn't. Less chance of significant cupping and warping that way.I'd personally advise bringing the wood home, stickering it, or at least setting it on edge so the air can flow around it evenly (in a heated location, of course), for a minimum of two weeks before milling. Then when you plane for thickness, take even amounts off both sides.Make your initial rips some over width, as those pieces may crook when freed from the motherboard. That way you'll hopefully still have enough width left to straighten 'em out and yield the desired dimension yet. You got a jointer in that shop? Face-jointing before planing to final dimension is a big plus. Jointer is better for edgte-jointing, too. The truer your stock when you start assembling, the better the odds you'll have a door that works well and that you won't mind telling folks you built. If it doesn't come out perfect, tell 'em you got it at HD. <G>Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
. If it doesn't come out perfect, tell 'em you got it at HD. <G>
Crackin me up.
Yes , I have one .
Thanks ,
Tim Mooney
Okay, well, there's a lot to say about as simple a task as building screens, huh? I'm no expert, and I'm not trying to discount what anyone else has said. Goldhiller and others have given some excellent advice. But I will tell you my opinion, Tim. Just take it as that, though, okay? I like to experiment alot, try new ideas out. Sometimes I hit, other times I whiff.
First off, I'm not a big fan of mecahnical fasteners, like nails, or screws. As wood expands and contracts with humidity fluctuations these work loose. What I DO like is glue. In this case I'd use a two part exterior epoxy, like West System. I've used other two part epoxies too, but West System lets you choose the appropriate catalyst for each particular project and the squirt measuring system they use makes it real easy to get the proper mix.
I guess for screens that big I'd like to use stock that measures 3/4" x 2", but that's becuase you said these would stay in place. I'd like a full 1" stock for an opening screen that large, or one that will be taken off and on every year.
Now I'm not sure what the name of this joint is, might be "open mortise&tennon", but where the boards abutt at the corner the vertical piece (stile?) has two fingers and the horizontal piece (rail?) has one finger, which slides between the two from the adjacent piece. These joints are easy to make with a table saw and a simple to build jig (I'll see if I have some photos of mine on my hard drive. If not, I know I have a bunch of photos and I'll try to find time to scan a couple in).
You with me so far?
More to say about applying the screen, thoughts on screen material itself, screen doors, lots of stuff, but have to get back to the salt mines.
Okay, I just looked. I don't have any of those photos in my computer. Let me know if you want to see that jig, or how to quickly and accurately cut that joint and I'll dig out those negatives.
"Okay, I just looked. I don't have any of those photos in my computer. Let me know if you want to see that jig, or how to quickly and accurately cut that joint and I'll dig out those negatives."
If it wouldnt put you too far out , Im sure everyone would like to see .
Can you give us a site on this two part epoxy?
Tim Mooney
I got a few of these scanned in, Tim. Now you have to understand, these are photos of window sash so the stock is 1+3/8 x 2+1/2" instead of the dimension you'll use for screens. Plus, there is a rabbet all the way around the sash for the glass to sit in. Your screen frame could just be rectangular, which makes the joints simpler, but you'll get the idea.
I mix a little epoxy in a butter tub and apply it with a disposable brush. After I'm done here I'll try to track down a link to West System. I'd be surprised if they don't have a site.
These two are clamping. First across the sash, then a squeeze clamp to get pressure on the joint itself.
Okay, that's assembly. This is cutting the joint.
Here's a pretty clear shot of the jig. It's really two pieces. The bottom one is a sled with a key that slides in the keyway slots of my table saw. The top piece slides back and forth, paralell to the blade, so you can make a cut, loosen the knobs that hold the two pieces of the jig together, slide the top piece 1/8" towards the blade, and make another pass through the blade, loosen the knobs, slide another 1/8", make another pass through the blade, and so on until the slot is the desired width.
Sorry I don't have any other shots of this jig, but FHB does. If you pester one of the editors I bet they could find them. They took several shots of it from every which way a few years ago. Very simple jig.
I've never posted these photos, Tim, but as long as I was scanning in those of making the joints, this one was on the same negative sheet and I thought "why not?", so here's one of a double casement window for our new house. I built 6 like this. Even meets egress requirements, but not by much.
After making the two rip cuts, I cut the cheeks off on the radial arm saw. But you could certainly do this just as easilly on your table saw. In fact, you could easilly make this 1/2 of the joint very easilly with repetitive cuts on the table saw, but I needed the jig to make the other half, so I use it for both pieces.
you da man...same as i been doin fer yrs.some 25+ and still holding out the gnats..pita to make, but well worth the effort..i guess them newfangled houses come with anti-bug shields huh?GGGGG
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"We try for conversation, we die in consternation..they kill prophets for profits"
wow, thanks .
In the first pic , I notice you have staggered the joint . Did you do that for added strengh and and was it necesary ? Im probably missing something .
You said something about moving the saw blade over and such . Did you use a dado blade and if not why?
Very cool jig . May be simple but you put some work in it .
Would you suggest this for the three screen doors?
Tim Mooney
That stagger you see is because the stock is rabbeted, Tim. Try to imagine that joint if the stock were rectangular. Both cheeks would be the same length, see?
I do doors differently, I dowel them (deep). But right now my brain is starting to sizzle. Been a long week and I gotta give the missus some attention. I'll check back later, or maybe tomorrow if she gets to chasing me around the couch.
Hey Goldhiller - yeah, I thought what you said about blind tennons and not exposing at least one piece of endgrain to moisture was a great point. Thought that when I first read it yesterday I think it was, or either this morning.
FRIDAY NIGHT! Catch you guys later.
It as bridle joint.http://www.diydoctor.org.uk/projects/timberjoints1.htmhttp://www.technologystudent.com/joints/brid1.htm
Thanks Bill. Let's see how lomg it takes for me to forget the name this time.
Tim - woke up with the thought that I never did google West System last night. Sorry. Here the link - http://www.westsystem.com. Just read up on it a little before buying. They have a few choices you can make, depending on working time, I think gaps to be spanned...maybe some other choices. Good stuff.
Okay, on to screen material.
I think I've seen brass screen, but the common choices in local glass shops out here are alluminum and fiberglass.
Fiberglass is easier to work with, but it can fray after a few years and get kind of fuzzy looking. Alluminum stands up better to ultraviolet rays, but dents and creases pretty easilly.
So what I like to do is use alluminum (charcoal but that's strictly an appearance preference) for windiws and fiberglass for doors, which get dented up by little kids hands (or aunt Tilly backing into the screen with the Thanksgiving keg up on her shoulder).
There is also what's called "pet screen". I've never used it, but this is fiberglass, super stout to prevent Fido from damaging it when he takes a swipe at the family cat through the screen door. I guess this stuff is virtually indestructable, but the fibers are really thick, too, so you really see the material, instead of seeing through it.
Now here's where others will have differing opinions. I use the same installation techniques for alluminum and fiberglass. I rout a groove all the way around the opening...I thnk it's 5/32", or maybe 3/16?...then roll the screen down into that and secure it with the appropriate sized rubber spline.
If you DO roll your alluminum this way, go slow. Make several gentle passes with the roller to form it down in there. It tears pretty easilly. In fact, plan on wasting a little material until you get the feel for it. I think many people staple alluminum screen material, but lots of times I don't use anything to cover that spline, no screen mold, and I think it looks a lot cleaner. But again, that's just a personal preference.
Those screen rolling tools are available at virtually any hardware store around here. The are a simple handle...maybe 5" long...with a rolling wheel (maybe 2" diameter?). One wheel the rolling surface is convex for rolling the screen down into the groove. The surface of the other wheel is concave for rolling the spline down on top of the screen.
Thanks Jim .
There is no dealer in Arkansas. But whil;e I ws looking for a dealer I noticed that it was all marine places that carried it . So I duppose Im looking for a marine two part epoxy. DW may be able to pick it up in Dallas.
Tim Mooney
Yeah, I guess virtually any marine epoxy would work, why not? Geez, I guess I take a lot for granted. Never occurs to me that other folks would have a hard time getting stuff. We live within driving distance of Tacoma and Seattle, both large ports, so I bet we have access to lots of stuff you don't.
Do you know Rockler woodworking stores? I THINK they used to be "Woodworker's Supply"? They carry it...just a second...okay, here's their catalog...try http://www.rocklerpro.com. There might be issues with shipping liquids like that, but give them a try.
Hey Shag! Let's see some photos of that screen door, man!
"First off, I'm not a big fan of mechanical fasteners, like nails, or screws. As wood expands and contracts with humidity fluctuations these work loose." And I would heartily concur. Just trying to suggest something that someone without the whole shop setup can do to make screen frames that will hold up darn good. I'd never suggest such a thing if the frame was for storm windows.....particularly of this size.Slip joint is another term I think, for the joint you describe. I'd sooner do a blind mortise for storms or screens as that way at least one end-grain tenon is tucked away from the elements. The screws in the instance I described, serve a dual purpose. 1- The clamping pressure for the gluing of the dowels, biquits or floating tenon and 2- A "metal dowel" reinforcement for the joints. Not really intended to do the job all by themselves. Just the fact that the screw is headed into the end-grain of the rails means it shouldn't be left or intended as a sole fastener and sustainer of the joint. Is this top drawer joinery in the world of cabinetmaking and millwork? Nope. I built furniture exclusively for too many years to think that it is. But I've had great success using the "cheater" procedure for simple screen frames, nonetheless. Actually, it's surprised me how well they've held up these last 15 years. Zero problems.Sometimes it seems to me that a guy has to balance which approach, to what project and the size of the wallet involved to decide what's best or adequate in any given instance. PS- You build very nice windows. I saw the pics here and saved 'em to disc. Thumbs up from me, as well as Luka.Edit: And now I see you've posted pics sometime today, too. I'll have a look/see at those also. Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/28/2005 11:22 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Yeah, I agree, Goldhiller. Geez, didn't mean to disparage screws. I guess that's one of the things that doesn't come through very well whenever I write something online. I sure as heck don't claim these are "better". Just trying to explain what I do, and why. I just haven't had good luck with screws (or half lap joints which I used the first sash I ever built, you can imagine how long that poor thing lasted).
Honestly, I'm just putzing along, trying stuff and trying to pay attention to what gives the best results over time. Some of the stuff I see here is awesome, some of your stuff as I recall. That's why I so seldom post photos, seldom feel anything I've done measures up to what others post.
I made a few out of WR Cedar last year. Lightweight and weather resistant. Take a look at tis little contraption:
http://www.beadlock.com/
I know its not the same as a true M&T, but this little gadget works really well. Stronger than just doweling, I used this to construct a 2" thick door on the front of my dad's house. He wanted the door out of beech, so this thing was heavy. The Beadloc joints have held up quite well especially given the weight and slamming of the door.
Pino
Theres nothing wrong with a floating tennon, if glued properly its just as strong a joint.
Tim this idea would help if you don't want to bother with true m & t. And it would still give you a strong joint.
They make a titebound III now, use it over the II if you go the way of yellow glue.
Doug
Edited 1/25/2005 10:30 pm ET by Doug@es
I did a couple of sreen projects a few years back. We used redwood, rabbeted & grooved for the screen bead & spline (just stapleing the screen doesn't get it tight enough), mitred & biscuited w/gorilla glue at the corners(pinned together while the glue sets), hung on traditional screen hangers... a nice work table w/ a square corner set up helps a lot....
The best homemade screen doors, and window screens I have ever seen...
Are on Jim Blodgett's house.
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
Ponderosa pine accepts glue real well and holds up fantastic to wheather.
I used it to build my first canoe.
Its grown in Alaska and readily available in most every state.
Be well
####
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
After you get them made coat them with some paintable water repellant/protectant.
They contain a copper or tin oxide to resist fungus and insects. And they have a small amount of wax that will going to the end grain so that it won't aborb water.
But a small enough amout of wax that it is still paintable.
Jasco has several products that fill that bill.
From the US Forest Wood Prodcuts Lab.
You may wanna give Shglaw a yell...he made one that would make any carp proud for his front door.
Makes him look like a finish carp rather than a lawyer.....but then again he may have sued the painter that painted it....lol.
Actually I think he painted it.....so he might have a hard time suing himself as good as he is.
A
N
D
Y
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Actually I think he painted it.....so he might have a hard time suing himself as good as he is.
A lawyer that sues himself has a fool for a wife.
hey Shaggy...The Honorable Blodgett kid is adressing you (just a heads up bro)
a...
PS.....I'll let you know about the brushed nickle knob tomorrow as soon as I'm sure its an extra.
a...The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
I honor the place in you where the entire universe resides,
I honor the place in you of love, of light, of truth, of peace.
I honor the place within you where if you are in that place in you
and I am in that place in me, there is only one of us.
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM