Hello All,
I was wondering if any of you could offer some words of advice for a do-it-yourselfer wishing to make some simple 2-D trim. I though about investing in a router and router table and then buying some 1x stock and running the stock through the router for some simple edge-reliefs.
The application would be for trimwork in my basement-finishing project. One room’s trim would be for a home theater that will be almost ‘black’ in nature, so I am only looking to cover some horizontal drywall seams (chair rails?) and where the drywall meets the floor (floor modling?) and soffits. All trim in this home theater room will be flat black painted. Other rooms it can be stained or painted, but its a basement.
Being a DIYer with absolutle no experience in finish carpentry, I would not be against giving it a shot. I have a DeWalt sliding compound miter saw ($600) for making corner/angle cuts, but I understand I’ll need to unmount the ripping blade in it for a finer-cut blade with lots of teeth.
Any advice or encouraging words of wisdom?
Replies
Check local pricing, you may be able to buy MDF trim for about the same as decent wood to make trim.
.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Edited 1/1/2003 2:06:32 PM ET by Phill Giles
#1 - If you haven't done this before and/or have no experience with using a router, I'd recommend that you buy, read, and understand a good book on the subject.
#2- Keep your fingers well out of the way. Use featherboards or spring clamps to keep the stock pushed up to the router table fence. You only get ten fingers and you want to finish the project with the same number with which you began.
#3 - Avoid stock with knots or wild grain structure. Choose straight flat stock (no twist) with tight straight grain.
That being said, you may find the "mushroom factor" looming before you in that you're likely going to need a tablesaw, jointer and sander ( if you don't own these) to create these moldings in a effective and satisfactory way. Depending upon what you choose for stock, you may need the use of a planer as well to get the stock to thickness. If you can find suitable and affordable stock at the desired thickness, then you won't need the planer.
None of the above is intended to discourage you from making these moldings yourself, but rather to advise you about the most basic of the basics. We all had a "first time" for everything that we do now with regularity. If you'd like to do this or at least have a go at it, then by all means have at it.
Making your own trim could be a great way to get started learning about shop tools and millwork. But Goldhiller is right, a router in an untrained hand can be extremly dangerous.
You might consider getting a table saw first if you're considering getting serious about woodworking. Planer, jointer, a couple sanders...but there's a lot a beginner can do with just a tablesaw, a vibrator type sander, and some basic handtools like maybe a jackplane or even a blockplane.
Yea the guys are right. You dont want to go and loose a finger or something using the router. power tools are dangerous. How ever you could go to a molding house and geet some molding custom made. it may seem a little pricey but if you add in the cost of the router, bits and time to do it (plus its a lot safer) you'll be money ahead.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
sorry my message was for the poster wrong guy :>)
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
Jim,
I hate to disagree with you , but in my humble experiance the table saw is one of the most overrated tools in the shop.. The only thing a table saw does well is rip. to cross cut with it you need a sled and then it's extremely awkward cutting long boards.
If you need to rip put a rip blade on your skill saw with a good fence (a piece of straight angle iron works well).
Routers can be dangerous but then so can any cutting tool. Face it, if it can cut wood your flesh doesn't stand a chance...
as for hand planes, you need experiance to get a smooth effortless cut with one of those. You need to know how to sharpen,& adjust them for them to work and frankly require too much time and effort.
With a compound miter saw, a skil saw and a router he can do just about anything he will need to..
Frenchy , A good ,sharp hand plane does not take that much effort I t takes some time and practice . But it is quiet and fun to use. on the other hand a dull one just plain sucks ,much like a dull electric planer. I think that he should get a table saw and a routerto make his moldings . then go spend more money on wood to make moldings than the moldings them self would cost. Education is not free. If he can find GETTING THE MOST OUT OF YOUR SHAPER he can use some of that info for a router. Oh by the way if you have a table saw it can also serve as the router table.
Don,
I started building my timber frame about a year and a half ago. No prior practical experiance (in fact I did lousy in wood shop) I found Black walnut rough sawn borads very cheap (17 cent.s a bd.ft.) I bought a planer for about $400 and a router for about $250 twenty minutes later I had made some very nice bull nose trim boards for the outside. (Wood is so cheap when you go to the source that no-one should ever pay retail.)
You buy the tools and give 'er a try. It just ain't as tough as some of you would have it seem..
My work looks nice and is slowly getting better.. Flawless? Nah! I can find lot's of things I would do better the second time.... But so far I've gotten a lot of compliments.. More important, I'm happy and I getting a house that I simply cannot afford any other way!
I sold my wife on the idea that I would buy what I needed in the way of tools and when I was done everything could go on E- bay and I'd get about half of it back.. I've learned enough that maybe i won't be so anxious to convert the stuff back into cash.
As for hand plane, that may be, but the object isn't to learn how to sharpen, adjust, flatten bases etc., rather to make some trim. Besides, It's something I've never mastered... (laugh here) But I do know how to shove a piece of wood through a planer or shaper. The piece comes out looking decent and acceptable.
Power tools are really terrible, I makes a dolt like me able to do things I can't afford to buy!
Generally the trim is going to be cheaper to buy than the high quality stock to make it from. I'd just buy the trim and put it up. The saw is overkill, but sweet and will be a joy to use. It should not have a rip blade on it EVER. In fact, it should have a negative hook blade for the trim. If you are talking about the blade that came with it - that is probably a cheap crosscut which may cut well enough for flat black painted trim. Try to learn to cope the corners, you need a coping saw and a rasp (or a dremel, or a small grinder, or a tablesaw, or , well you get the picture).
One disadvantage to making your own trim is that if you should need more in the future (like needing just a few more feet to finish a room) you may have a difficult time matching the setup. Someone mentioned a table saw...that could be a better purchase than a router. For simple tri9m, especially painted black, you could rip a chamfer off the top edge and maybe run a groove or two along the face for a custom look. For general carpentry, you will probably find a table saw will have more uses than a router.
Unlike the others, this post IS intended tp discourage you.
I applaud your enthusiasm but you are now getting in over your head and the result won't be lots of dust and wasted material; rather, personal injury. You are jumping too far ahead of yourself. Milling your own mouldings isn't limited to buying a router and figuring it out. Especially when you don't have someone to watch and to watch you, doing it properly. It is a lot more dangerous than hanging or taping drywall, which is what you were asking about previously.
You are also trying to "reinvent the wheel." There are plenty of mouldings out there which will suit your purpose just fine and with greater quality.
With all due respect, you do not have the knowledge base (understanding) to mill mouldings - lack of knowledge what's available in terms if bit profiles, lack of understanding what is proper design and lack of knowledge of the process. A subscription to FHB and/ or FWW (do you subscribe?) and registering on internet "how to" sites does not qualify you to do the task at hand. I apologize in advance if this sounds rough but it is intended to urge you to take smaller steps.
Many of the questions asked on this site by DYI'ers don't involve great dangers as most are limited to drywall, tiling, material choices, painting, etc. But to group those jobs with milling moulding when your only "major" peice of machinery is a sliding compound miter saw - which by the way, is already too much for you - is irresponsible, if not just plain foolhardy. Grow into the compound miter saw and master it before you expand your repitoire. Bought mouldings are the perfect vehicle for this.
This is a non accident story.
I got my first router many years ago. I was amazed at the speed at which I could mould the edge of some boards. Of course I was hogging off material amd had a hss solid pilot bit, so the edge was - well crappy. I was still amazed. I had cut about 10' with this bit, so I decide to try another one. I turn the router over and loosen the collet, but the bit is stuck. I try to pull it out with my bare hand, and promptly get a slight burn and gash. Look at my finger... It's ok. Reach for bit again. Trigger on handle gets depressed, router goes on, bit flies out. I almost crap my shorts. Router goes into box for llllooooonnnnnnnggg time.
I never forget this. I have all my body parts still (some broken, but never cut off). I think about the router incident pretty regular. I probably think of it too much because I have to be able to see the unplugged cord before I can change bits, blades or whatever. Except once, I think I'll just put the chuck key in the drill and change this bit, and my hand again pulls the trigger and the key is still in the chuck. No great amount of damage done, but I did get a surprise. Now I unplug everything before doing anything I could get hurt on.
Hmm, I guess using that compound miter saw for the past six months was a waste of time. I like it a lot. It helped me to chop down studs to appropriate size, six at a time. This was my first saw, let alone a miter saw, let alone a sliding miter saw.
Then there is that framing nailer thingamajig. That was the first nailer I ever owned and used, let alone a framing nailer. Its (when in use) plugged into my first compressor. Never owned a compressor before, not even one of those Sunday inflators you see people with in the trunks of their cars.
Is there a point I am getting at? Yes. Not, I do not know everything--actually, no one does. Have I had an accident with a power tool I've used? Nope, not yet, and its been +6 months into fooling around in my basement and a friend's basement (he knows less than me, if that's possible).
Actually, I have clipped my index finger's knuckle twice on a joist hanger. This was when I was driving Simpson nails into a triple-LVL recessed beam I installed in my basement to take out that load-bearing wall. Was I foolish? Maybe. Did I get injured? Sure did. With a power tool? No.
The point I guess I am trying to make, here, is that power tools represent something a LOT more serious to me. They make me take SERIOUS precautions. I ask questions, including the same question 10 times. When its a structure (re load-bear wall), I consult the manufacturer, architect, structural engineer, contractors, etc. before take the first step. When its simple framing, I walk onto job sites and ask framers and contractors. I watch, observe, ask questions, inquire about dangers (and how to avoid them), etc.
I am sorry if any of you thought I was one to run out and buy a new power and without the proper cautions simply go at it, and throwing caution to the wind. I suppose I've been really lucky thus far, or maybe I simply I am not so foolish. So, although I know nothing of milling wood, I am not about to run out tonight and buy a router and simply 'have at it'. I do that all of you for the concern (its appreciated), but I promise not to be like Mark (joking, here).
Now, can anyone recommend some good books on milling wood? If I want to place a 1/2" bull-nose radius on one side of a 1x6 that I am gonna paint flat black for an otherwise flat-black painted room? I am open to some classes, but I live in a land that does not cater to those wishing to learn-first.
If you insist on doing it yourself, build a router table with a big flat top. Typical purchased router tables are toy size. Get a variable speed 1/2" router for power even if you are using a 1/4" shank, you'll want the larger router someday anyway. Use a fence with a guard on the router table (again this can be homemade). Dont cut too deep, and make the final pass a cleanup operation. Admire your work. At this point you will be where you would have been if you just bought the trim. Now you can begin to install your newly made trim.
I bought a moulding head for my tablesaw to make some other cuts than that are possible on the router, as yet it is unused. The reason is that I can buy 16' trim that is nice enough. 16' 1x6 without knotholes and wane and other undesirable defects is not easily or cheaply available here, but like you I figured on making some baseboard. So the only time I make trim is if I want to replicate period trim for a small job. And modern tools dont really get the old look. For that you need moulding planes and scrapers, but you can make your trim with your saw and a router and table.
I suggest that before you start that you see what is available for rough stock. I usually end up surfacing the 1x to 5/8, so you might want to check out planers, and then you'll want a jointer. Once you get those you'll want a bandsaw and a oscillating spindle sander and a...
I hope that's a typo about buying a 1/2 hp router.
Dam...my typo...you said 1/2" as in collet size.
Edited 1/1/2003 11:37:14 PM ET by ELCID72
router table?
aw come-on!
Take the average router, add the cost of a well built router table and you are so close to the price of the smaller shapers you may as well just buy the shaper and be done with it! as for asking a newbie to build a good router table, well I've seen a lot more crappy homemade ones that have serious dangers with 'em then I have good ones.....
Heck a router is a wonderful tool. Sure it's dangerous, but then so is a pocket knife used wrong!
Kinda the next tool for him to buy...
A perfectly good router table can be built from a sink cutout. It does not have to be fancy. A fence can be made pretty much for free too. Handheld routers work fine, but you will get a better result with a table. I havent seen a premade router table worth having.
I bought a Jet 1 1/2 hp. shaper for $300. (second hand) Grizzley sells one similar to mine for $225..
It may not be the finest but I'll bet it's alot better than most routers and homemade tables...
That's a pretty good deal. Does it take router bits also? Shaper cutters can cost a lot especially when only a few feet of lumber is going to be molded. Also one advantage to a shaper is having a tilting arbor for making cuts that are impossible with a router. The motors are quiter as well as longer lived. They don't totally replace a router in all applications, so I would think that the router would be the first choice to make a mop board.
It came with lotsa of bits....most were decently sharp.... Yes, the bits cost more than similar quality router bits (by about 20%) but because they are larger, turn slower, stay sharp longer...
Tilting arbor shapers cost an arm and leg. Grizzley's cheapest cost $2500.00 I imagine that brands that market thru dealersare twice or more than that!
my first shaper was a little bench top antique shaper all rust needed new bearingsand the table shimmed . I found it in the dump ,took it home . Yea the hand plane does take some learning but it is a good skill that I wish I would have learned years ago. I will not give up my jointer and planer though. My grand father and uncles used those old planes all the time when I was a kid . Wish I had payed attention back then .
I had a little block plane that I used to knock the edges of the timbers off.. It worked OK, however just as fast to grab the small router with a the roundover bit and knock 'em off.
I've used small planes once in a while but it's not faster nor as easy... but they are queiter and use less electricity...... Gotta admit I feel more like a craftsman when I grab them.
kartman,
Send me your mailing address and I'll send some books I don't need any more.
KK
KK, I used this forum's email feature to send you the mailing address. Thanks. If you do not get it please let me know. I appreciate your offering.
kartman,
Got mailing addy but email addy bounced. Please send real email addy.
KK
My apologies. I forgot to update the email addy when I changed ISPs. I just emailed you the correct email addy.
I am so sorry. I did not realize you were a seasoned carpenter. Six whole months with your first saw, and a compound sliding one at that. Whoa! And all that time without a powertool related accident! You are a champion among your peers.
Now let's get serious. That fact that you even concider compairing a compressor or a framing nailer with a router demonstrates your naivitee. As you stated yourself, you know nothing about milling wood. That is the only relevant statement in your post. Getting info from books, eng'rs, arch, and manufaturers is no way to go about learning how to mill mouldings. You also stated that you know nothing about finish carpentry. I took that at face value. FYI - Three of the most dangerous tools on a woodshop are lathes, shapers and routers. More FYI - a shaper is a giant router.
I returned to your initial post to review your question. You were asking for advice for what you seemed to concider an introductory or basic level of work. I gave you mine. It's up to you to do with it as you like.
Frankie, I do apologize if I made offense--it wasn't intended. I do not know of one friend, with or without power tools (any tools for that matter) that have thought about (let alone even attempted) some of the things I've done in 2002. Ok, maybe its not six months--let's make that a year, hehe.
What I was striving for was not a brag-factor, but one to let everyone know that I was not going into any activity lightly, blindly, or without preparing and some learning. I am capable of learning. I will make mistakes. The idea for me is to avoid making mistakes that are personal injuries. But I do not see why you should be so opposed to my wanting to learn a new skill that can be used in my home.
Tools are an investment. I suppose I could spend the money paying the premiums Atlanta suppliers all want for molding, but I'd rather pay the same, or invest in more than that molding costs as the tools and skills will last a lot longer.
No, I do not plan on making this a trade for income as my cushy desk job has me sitting there 95% of time waiting for disaster to clean up. BTW, thanks for paying your phone bill on time. I would be more than happy to take some classes, but even the Continuing Education centers around me don't offer classes/workshops on this interest.
If there are some millworkers around the Buford, GA area that wouldn't mind my spending some time observing them, asking questions, using my paid-for stock, etc. to learn under their supervision (willing to sign a liability disclaimer) I'd jump at the chance!
But please don't push all DIYer into the 'don't change your own oil, you may get hurt' category as some of those DIYers are probably (me, hopefully) are capable of learning, keeping safe, and maybe easy to train. I would like ask where/how all of the millworkers responding learned their skills. I think this is going to get interesting.
I, for one, learned virtually everything I know via the same approach that I suggested to you............read and understand a book that explains the subject(s) well and then "have at it". That's why I said not to take my advice/precautions as an indication that you shouldn't attempt this.
If all us us took the cheapest/fastest route to an acceptable/desired result (not sure who would be appointed to decide this), every house around would be the same piece o' crap and totally lacking in any aesthetic individuality (lowest cheapest common denominator)........and FHB would have no audience.
Everyone here, I'm sure, had your safety and/or billfold in mind with their comments and suggestions. I don't think anyone was really trying to put you down for wanting to learn and do these things, but I can see how it would be easy for you to conclude the opposite.
We all love to build stuff with our hands or we wouldn't be in this field of endeavor and I'm always willingly to help folks get down that path if that's what they desire to do....be it for a living or a hobby. It's not always about the cost........ sometimes/frequently it's about the doing of it yourself........the human will to self assertion...pride..... and all that.
Growing is about learning and learning is about doing.
Welcome aboard.......the trial by fire may already be behind you.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
"I would like ask where/how all of the millworkers responding learned their skills. I think this is going to get interesting."
I admit that I'm a little late to the table but I'll throw in, if it's not too late to speak a piece about what has been said so far.
You can't learn technique or some safety stuff or thinking ability from a book but it is true that some of us learn better from the written word (with maybe a piucture or two) than otherwise. I'd say that half of what I know in this industry comes from reading, the other half from watching and doing. No reason kartman can't learn 'on the job'.
But it needs to be because you enjoy it as a hobby and not to 'save money' because you won't save any by making your own trims.
I've milled enough trim for three or four normal sized houses. I use a fairly efficient machine (Wiulliams and Hussey) but it costs more to make moldings than to buy them stock off the rack. What I get out of it is customer satisfaction. I can custom replicate trims to match the rest of the house, even if it is stuff that hasn't been made in a hundred years. S4S is almost as expensive as millwork. I can't figure out where any savings come in by comparing select S4S to stock milwork. But if you have all the rest of the machinery, planers et al, you can save a little by using rough lumber or remilling used reclaimed stuff. That's if as a hobbiest, you didn't count for your time.
And then there's a learning curve, especially when you are teaching yourself out of a book. Remember that I'm not against this. It's how I did it for the most part, over thirty years. I'm just trying to shed reality on your ideas. It's fun and satisfying but that learning curve will set you back some too. A few wasted pieces of lumber here, a cut off finger there, a block thrown through the window yonder...
guess I'll read the rest of the thread now to see what I said that's already been said...
.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piffin,
Ive been fooling around with woodworking for only about 9 years. I didnt know squat about it when I first started. I took some classes at the local jr college in basic woodworking and construction to learn the techniques. Got enough tools and bagan playing in my shop (a dedicated garage) and havent looked back
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
Lots of talk about safety. Maybe there have been a few close calls. Don't reach over or under the blade is my advice. Enough said. I didn't read all the suggestions here so forgive me if someone else has already suggested this. I think a great way to go would be to use MDF(fancy particle board) or even wheatboard/woodstalk available at Home Depot, very reasonable. Find a tablesaw and a helper(stuff can be heavy in a 4 x 8) rip it to whatever height you like, sand or dress with router, and/or buy some cap or backband at .30 to .90$ a foot to add to it. MDF paints up very well and when machined needs very little sanding. Good Luck, Troy
Edited 1/7/2003 12:51:41 AM ET by troy
1/2" bull-nose radius on one side of a 1x6 Save yourself some trouble. Buy 1x4 and some quarter round trim.
I'm not going to comment about your learning methods and tool purchase sequence. We have probably all done something similar at one time or another. If you look at the suggesstions here with an open mind, it's kind of like a parent talking to their child, hoping to keep the child from making the same mistakes, knowing full well that the child has to experiences things for themselves before they believe the "old man". (I'm not infering that you're a child.)
I don't get it...
Kartman says he wants to put a simple half-inch roundover on some 1-by lumber and we're telling him it's too complicated and too dangerous?
What better way to learn about woodworking than to buy stock 1-by, round over an edge, cut the board to length, nail it in place, then prime and paiint? In a basement!
Can it be any more basic?
Kartman, I have Trim Carpentry Techniques by Craiig Savage. Published by Taunton. Good book. Maybe not the best, but it might be worth checking out.
Do a google seach for "Pat Warner"and "router". I'm pretty sure that's his name. He's written several books on router use and used to have a detailed website with a lot of router info.
Enjoy your project.
Go for it Kartman!
Take advantage of the previous offer of the books.
I second Mongo's go-for-it encouragement.
If no one ever tried anything new, we'd all still be living in wattle sheds.
Often your local hardwood supplier will have a 'kindling pile' where they throw out the trim cuttings from big jobs - I've gotten literally TONS of oak, walnut, purple heart, etc free this way, makes great moulding - what is not suitable for moulding still makes great kindling.
IMHO, a sturdy router is one of the safer tools (with a big table), especially compared to a wicked moulding head on a radial arm saw (what I first used for DIY moulding 35 years ago) or carving with a chainsaw or logging operations, etc. etc.
>> If no one ever tried anything new, we'd all still be living in wattle sheds.
Heck, if no one ever tried anything new, we'd all still be living under the broad and starry sky. The first wattle shed was probably a startling innovation.
'course no one can say there's anything wrong with broad and starry skies.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Except in the winter.
Ya but sometimes when the opportunity presents itself ya just got to adapt.
Shiver me timbers.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Proceed please and put an end to all this talk. Ear muffs are highly encouraged, as the router will make a lot of noise. It will be fun, but you probably will not save much money, you might consider mdf for the first batch. Always knot free, and won't splinter much. Helpful hint, you willl end up with a small router for freehand work, and larger for the inevitable table. If you buy the big one first, make sure that it has soft start feature, as it is much easier to control. Not to scare you, but out of my large pile of tools, the router is the one tthat I am most careful of. They are very fast, and sharp, so just treat it with the respect it deserves. Buy good bits, they are worth it if you store them carefully.
Dan
Mongo, thanks for the reply and information. I will go looking at both that book and for that website.
Look to a Williams and Hussey machine. It produces moulding. The problem with using a router for making moulding is that you will have some inconsistent feed speeds. UNless you rig up a power feeder you could create some chatter marks or burn marks. Shapers are more suited for moulding but are more dangerous then routers. Shapers need and should require a power feeder in its use. The W&H moulder has a power feeder built in and is probably the best buy. You can have custom knives made for both shaper and W&H but usually not the router.
Making most moulding with a router will require multiple passes and different stages. Much more prone to having profile errors due to the changing heights of your router bit.
Start digging up books before you tackle this project.
I say power to you if you want to make your own mouldings.
Bill, interesting! I just sent them an email. Not sure if their online feedback form is actually working, but if I hear nothing by Monday evening I'll pick up the phone.
Although I am sure that a dedicate tool with probably be the best solution, doesn't this restrict oneself to that tools abilities? Of course, this would make an excellent excuse to buy both a pair of routers and a molder/planer.
You want to edge a few boards and now you are looking at spending over $2000 for a moulder? I thought I was bad.
Also, you might find it easier to freehand the edges on long boards, rather than to bother with a router table. Even the chamfered edge someone was saying you could cut on a tablesaw, just buy a chamfer bit for the router, no big deal, no saw marks to deal with.
I did a chamfer detail on some of my trim, I don't know how well the pics will come out as it is dark and snowy right now...
I have no idea what that thing costs. I could have sworn the poster that posted that idea in my head said it was about the same, costwise. I gues I responded before the morning coffee took place. There is no way I am spending $2K on a tool--not before I retire, that is! Ok, back to the router/table saw discussions. :)
Figure about $2000 for the machine and one set of cutters. Lol.
I am trying to e-mail you through Breaktime but it keeps getting returned due to a non-valid address. Please check your profile/ Breaktime's contact for you, or send me it through my profile.
F
Frankie,
When I first joined the FHB forum I was with another ISP. They turned out to be less than desirable, so I moved on. This created a situation in which my email addy changed:
[email protected]
PS: Anyone know how to update their profile for this kind of change?
I just managed to update the email addy in My Preferences.
Bill1010,
Awe com-on! really ? Molding machine? that's like saying your kid wants to build a tree fort and needs a framing nail gun, hose, and compressor!
walk before you run...
Ha! You guys don't know the 6 year old where I'm working!! Not a day goes by that he doesn't want to bulid a "fort", and wants to use every power tool I touch. And I have to watch the supplies like a hawk! (He sure can hammer though! Needs a little work on the aim, though!)Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Sounds like me about a half a century ago....
i was refering to a W&H machine not a 4 head moulder monstrocity. ;) but whats wrong with nailguns and and compressors for forts? :D
kartman as for the W&H machine it can be used as a thickness planer as well as profile moulder. If you want to make moulding and trim youll need boards of consisent thickness, and store surfaced lumber isnt consistent. even s4s will vary.
Been in the same boat you are now in . Ignore the nay sayer BS , if you have an interest and a brain you can make trim : SOME advice should be heeded : if you plan to never do any more woodworking than in this basement : forget it : you wont recoup your cost : buy stock ready-made trim : if you plan to continue you will definitely need a table saw : so I would reccomend a good contractor saw and a MOULDING HEAD : plus cutters so you can make moulding.
I started 5 years ago when I needed to replace some windows and could only afford DYI : I realized that I could buy rough lumber , AND a planer for 1/2 the price of just finished wood from HD : have never looked back : pretty much a full shop now (lathe, shaper, jointer , drill press etc : all used at bargain prices) so realistically look at your intentions and act accordingly.
Go find a house ready to be torn down, ask to get some trim from inside.
Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
Wow,
Wear a propholactic too! Can't be too safe.
Seriously, Mop or baseboards can be simple. Just a 1x6 or so is fine. If you chamfer (cut a 45 degree bevel on the top) you make a simple mop board that when painted or stained is attractive. If you want to get fancier then take 1/2x2" wood and do a roundover on the top edge. You can then nail that above the chamfered baseboard for an attractive look.
You can use a router, a shaper, or a router table. In your stage I'd use a standard router with bearing guides on the 45deg chamfer bit and the same on a 1/4" roundover.
Clamp the work to the table edge and figure out how the router works. Yes everything is dangerous. Just figure out what will hurt you and where the sht flies. Then avoid both.
With that and the Miter saw you should succeed. Start with the painted wood. You can "fill" the joints you hose up. As you get better the joints get tighter.
All the best.
Just my opinion but when I started figuring out how to use my router I found it alot safer and easier to use it hand held (with bearings or edge guide) rather than in a table where my hands are moving wood into the bit.
I started out exactly the way this poster is , I bought some 1x4 and dressed up the edge a bit for some basement trim about 15 years ago.Now I've got 2 routers and a laminate trimmer(which gets more use than both combined).cheers Good luck Rik
Wear a propholactic too! Can't be too safe.
I have ten brothers and sisters, all married, and their collective efforts I stopped counting at +30 off-spring. Yes, I'm married, without children, and that's by deliberate action: protection.
Booch, you just brought up an interesting idea. I didn't think of a 45º chamfer cut. Hmm ... You may just have simplified that basement activity. Still, when the basement is done I wouldn't mind learning the router.
I can see it now ... at work, my personal-built router table, going at it like I want to and then I get a call say all of South Florida's data network is down. "Can they wait? I'm in the middle of something, here. Its important, too."
Thanks for the advice, both for the tools inside the pants and outside of the pants.
Kartman:
I am thinking that if some classes are not available in your area, I bet you could get some instructional videos. It is the old "a picture is worth a thousand words." Too bad there is no one in your area to show you how to use a router and some of the basic (and safe) setups. I read what you had for a saw and I must say that I am a little surprised. I have had five other miter saws before I bit the bullet and got the big DeWalt this year. What a great saw. You are right in that the blade that comes with it is pretty cheesy. You do not need to spend a fortune thought for a replacement, Freud makes a nice blade that you can get at HD or Lowes for under $40.
Feel free to email me at [email protected] if you want some more info. I did not always do this for a living, I started just like you and worked and practiced and got to the point where I could make a living at it and decided that the office gig was not happening anymore.
Of course you'll want a Paslode cordless nailer to help put up your trim as well as the aforementioned router. Once you catch the tool disease it gets expensive!
Good luck, have fun and be careful, hearing and eye protection and know where your hands are at all times!
Cheers,
Jeff
This is to encourage you.
I ran 40 ft of moulding for my current home project yesterday. Bought some 2x1 and 2x2 pine and ran it through the saw and router to get the profiles I wanted. However, I don't use a router for moulding - I use a Delta Router Shaper - takes 1/2 and 1/4 in shank router bits, has a built in lift, and costs less than a router AND router table. The way I looked at the purchase was that if I bought a router and table I would end up leaving the router mounted and buying a second one, so what not start with a dedicated machine. I've had no problem so far with the 10,000 RPM speed and small size cutters - this is the usual critism of this setup.
Ian, if you do not use a router for moulding what did you run that 2x1 and 2x2 through the saw & router (for the profile you wanted) for? Curious, here.
Somebody mentioned seeing it in person.
I believe that you are in Atlanta area.
Highland Hardware is a major tool pusher to addics. They also have woodworking classes.
Also check if you have a Woodcrafters store in your area. They rent wood working videos (among selling many other things).
Bill, I typed in Woodcrafters into the yp.bellsouth.com online yellow pages for the Atlanta area and got several hits:
American Woodcrafters, Woodcrafter's Supply Co., Griffen/Quality/S&S Woodcrafters.
Any of these seem like the most likely candidate?
Sorry I did it by memory. The name is Woodcraft.
Atlanta , GA
1085 Holcomb Bridge Rd.
Roswell , GA 30076
(770) 587-3372
Bill, I called that number and briefly spoke to an older gentlemen. I asked about tool rental and class/workshops. He said they do not rent tools and only the Norcross location holds classes, but nothing on mill work. He seemed in a hurry to get off the phone (probably with a customer) I took the information he offered, http://www.woodcraft.com, and tried to dig up the information for the Norcross location online.
Well, that website does not list any other store than the one I called. Wierd. The website has a link for Stores & Classes, which takes you to a page that only, and briefly, mentions Seminars & Demos (i.e. no classes). I found an email address to send this question to and hopefully it will turn something up.
You could take a course at the local vo-ed and get to use all their equipment. They usually got those big dog sit on the floor planers that'll shave old oak like pine with a sharp hand plane.Character? I never had any problem with character. Why, people've been telling me I was one every since I was a kid.
So many of us that do this for a living get hung up on costs of time versus material etc. that we forget the real joy that comes from doing something new and interesting yourself.
I made all the door and window casings in the spec/rental I am building using a Bosch 1/2" router attached to a $35 router table insert from Mcfeely's and the best router table I have ever used.
The router table was made from a 10' laminate countertop that was damaged and we had to replace on a commercial job. I cut a hole for the plate with a jigsaw and ran a 3/8 rabbet bit around it to make the recess. two pieces of plywood ripped to 3" wide and screwed down made the fence. I even put a little plywood hood over the bit like a guard. The slick laminate surface worked great and the long table made everything work really easily. All we were doing was putting a 1/4" roundover on teh verticals and the tops of the plinth blocks for what is a standard craftsman style trim in these parts. It's also great to make window stools etc where the profile (ussually just a roundover) turns down the ends and you don't have to cut those ugly (time consuming) 45 deg returns.
Just another self-taught woodbutcher.
That's my kind of router table. Not one of the sissy sheet metal junk affairs.
Like Bill said..the Williams and Hussey is a great molding making machine and open sided planer. I've had one now for about ten years. Its not as expensive as a good shaper "plus" its portable!
My question is.....being that I'll be making LOTS of moulding on my new 1680 house in the very near future (sping 2003) I was wondering if anyone had a Viel profile grinder to make their own cutting blades. How does it work? Any good? For about $700 it should pay for it self pretty quickly if it works well. I can't even find their website..I saw it in an ad in Fine Woodworking.
Be a cut above,
Namaste'
Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Andy,
Doesn't appear to be a website, but here's contact info.
Viel Tools
33 Rue Beland
Isle Verte, QC
G0L 1K0
418-898-2601
Fax: 418-898-2606
Sharpening machines, woodworking tools, supplies and kits. Catalog $3, refundable with order; 100 pages.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Goldhiller
Thanks...going to call them tomorrow
Be well
Namaste
Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
KK,
The Router Basics book is an interesting read. I didn't know one could make raised panels using a router (call me ignorant). I was so surprised I blurbed that out in the presence of the wife (now call me stupid). I can see the wife will have about 5-10 pieces of cabinetry-type furniture requests upon finishing the basement (home theater).
I know she wants bookcases in her study (to look like they are built-in), with the base being deeper with cabinet doors. Dear god, what a monster I have created. Maybe an accident will save me? Is it worth the pain? I'm going from her initial requests to make her some simple picture frames to cabinetry?
I have to ask, how on earth did you guys manage to keep this secret (you ability to make furniture) from your wives?
You're screwed for life now. Just go to the tool stores and go in debt. It's hopeless... We tried to talk you out of it, but now, well it's just too late.
Not really my wife but I made bed for my girlfriend, took over 1 1/2 and still not finished, :) If people ask you make them something and you cant get out of it and its not a customer just take your sweet time make it last really long eventually they come to the realization you dont finish things and they stop asking for half finished pieces of furniture :)
But on the other hand you have to live with your wife so that might be more painful then doing it.
As to raised panels on a router it depends on the profile your cutting, personanly I dont feel to comfortable spinning a 3 inch bit even with it mounted to a router table, there are ways to make simple raised panels on a table saw but that could be addressed much better by more quailified people then myself especially over at knots
Now you could use this as an excuse to get yourself a shiny new shaper :)
Well, thanks to KK the next book (that he sent me, also) will be Tablesaw Basics!
Wait till all your friends find out how handy you are!
Lets start small and make a little molding before you start cranking out furniture. The vision of a 3 1/2" bit in a handheld router made me shudder.
KK
Made you shudder!?! Its scaring me to death!
Basically you cant really do it, 3 inch and 3 1/2 inch in a hand held is not safe. I dont know for certain, but I would imagine you probably have smaller hand held if its your first, even in a table the router is most likely underpowered and not designed to spin that size bit. If you had a larger plunge router in a large table its theoretically possible but for that size work your much better off with a shaper. But again Im no expert
Do NOT spin a raised panel bit in a hand held router.
You can use them, but please, use a router table. A variable speed router is required as well, as it's nice to slow the large bits down to the 12000rpm range.
Waste the cut on the table saw, then finish wth the raised panel bit on the router table.
I KNEW I had seen some vertical panel raising bits somewhere. Here are a couple of links:
http://www.freud-tools.com/freudverrais.html
http://www.cheyennesales.com/catalog/cmtvertrp.htmOne nice thing about egotists - they don't talk about other people.
Boss I've tried those but there not exactly user friendly. You can do it reasonably easy if you build up a larger fence to push the panel against but its much easier to do it with the panel laying flat opposed to vertical
I've never used vertical raised biits, but here are a couple of tidbits that were passed along to me from soomeone whoo has:
1) He gets better results by mounting the router horizontally and running the panels flat, over the bit. (As CAG mentioned)
2) He said that they sometimes tend to "delaminate" MDF causing rough and shaggy raised edges.
3) He said that with some woods, depending on grain, the bit can pull the grain instead of shear/cut it, causing rough edges.
On the whole, he reported having to do occasional touch-up work with edges milled with verticlal bits, as well as having some MDF panels totally ruined and rendered unusable.
If you on tight budget delta makes a small bench top shaper that I have used and had great luck with, especially if you can make a larger table for it. Its not good for larger panels because of its size, an larger table helps this, but for cabinet doors and such it works good. It makes a better router table then a shaper though
Well, for roughly $400, which is less than a router and a table, you can buy a 1.5hp shaper that will even take router bits. I'm not sure the value equation closes on the table-top units..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Phill,
This the model I was talking about
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006K00P/qid=1042592820/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-9840447-9095308?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013
It does not have a very large table, I've used one several times which has been mounted on a stand an extension table on the outfeed side, it can also be taken on site and used a pretty sturdy router table. If your looking for a standard router table by time you buy a quality table and router your looking at more then $250 that this one cost which you pointed out. I like this delta a lot, and also takes router bits as well as shaper bits.
Edited 1/14/2003 11:07:06 PM ET by CAG
It doesn't take shaper "bits", but I'll let you and Phill sort out the value end of shaping wood.
Ok I apoligize shaper "cutters" wrong terminology
Also wanted to say thanks for the faming fix I asked about
That looked like a group effort to me, but no problem.
Bits, cutters, what ever you call them that machine doesn't take them. Does it? I thought it just took router bits.
It doesnt come with a spindle for shaper cutters but you can buy an accessory spindle to use with 1/2" cutters
Ok, I thought it might be something like that. Chuck an arbor into the collet, not pretty, better off with router bits, the last thing you want to do is leverage a wide bit off a machine that can't handle them. Shaper cutters run at a different rpm as well.
Later,
Yes its definitely a better router table then shaper but it is possible, the big down fall is the machine is its lack of variable speed
A few years ago I toyed with the idea of buying a shaper. Even though I mill a helluva lot of wood, I'm not a full-tiime cabinetmaker/woodworker, so I never pursued the idea.
Over the years I've amassed a pretty good selection of router bits. That certainly influenced my decision to stick with routers.
I am lazy in regards to wanting to avoid repetitive setups during a project, though, and that has resulted in me collecting a few routers along the way. I have a 3.25hp PC for spnning the large bits, and a several in the 1.5-2 hp range for general use...several 690s and a couple of Bosch variable speed units.
Best thing I ever did was make a very large and very well-made router table.
You don't necessarilly HAVE to use 3.5" bits to make raised panel doors. I've seen raised panel bits that were made to work in the vertical position - I think either Freud or CMT makes them.If electricity comes from electrons... does that mean that morality comes from morons?
I do agree with some of the other posts about running enough trim the first time. The Millwork shop we install for has a $200,000 molding machine and even they occasionally have trouble getting two different set-ups to match.
For a project I had in '01 I looked at getting a router table, variable speed router and router lift so I could run different moulding profiles on the edge of MDF. At the time my existing router (inherited from my Dad) was close to the end of its life and unsuitable for mounting in a table. I eventually settled on a Delta branded machine called a router shaper. It has a 1 1/4 hp motor, the spindle goes at 10,000 rpm, and the verticle travel is 2 3/8 in. It takes 1/4 in and 1/2 in shank router cutters. I've been happy with the ease of use and finish I've gotten so far using the machine. The point I was trying to convey was that a router and router table were not the only option for small scale production of mouldings.
For my attic/second floor remodel I made all of the trim so that it would match the rest of the house (1931 bungalow). I used a table saw, jointer, planer and a router mounted in a table. I made 260' of 1" x 1" birch back band (rabbet, cove and radius bit) , 300' of birch 3/4" x 1 5/8" base cap (rabbet, box core bit). I also used a mouldings head cutter on the table saw to hog out some of the waste one the base cap. It's not easy jointing 14' 5/4 stock but the results were great. The worst part is sanding everything that you made, but since I'm anal retentive I sand out all of the mill marks on the trim I buy from the lumber yard. The most important thing I have found, is to use feather boards to hold the stock against the fence and down against the table for both the router and table saw. The feather boards shield the blade and make for consistent pieces. Consistent sized and profiled pieces yield tight joints. Try to run all of your trim at the same time. If you run out use the new pieces with other new pieces (it's hard to exactly match each run).