Check out the picture attached.
I’ve been asked to put a mantle on this fireplace. Customer wants a full mantle that goes accross the top and down the sides. The problem that I see is the tiles are too close to the windows that are on each side. Customer wants to keep the tile up if possible and incorporate them in to the look of the mantle.
I have some ideas, but I would love some input from the “experts”.
Help!
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..†– Hume
Replies
I'm trying but all I cann do so far is gag
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I know. I wish I could take off the old mantle, just for the picture. That was obviously a mistake (customer admits that the old mantle doesn't work and that's where I come in) .“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Yup, it's ugly. And there's no way I can see that a traditional mantel will blend with the surround and the drywall returns at the windows. Plus, there's no room to properly return the shelf and shoulder of the mantel to the wall.
Aesthetics aside, though, will this fireplace allow you to get close to the metal with the legs?
That isn't all that does not work
There is no room for the fireplace between those two windows. Would be illegal for safetyreasons in many places.The whole trim package is cheap as it can be - no ccasing on the windows and the baseboard is so small it is barely existingThis is not any personal attack at you. I sat here staring and looking for a dsolution and all I could see is everything done wrong and I am the kind of guy who looks for solutions - not problems.My impression is that this place is mostly modern, so something modern, unique and not classical is what is needed todeal with it. But to look good proportions must be considered - for a change. that willl be hard to do in the space left.The tiles on the sides will have to be partly covered.That is as far as my creative juices can flow tonight on this one.
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Piffin, you took the words right out of my mouth. GAG!
Why do people insist on polishing turds?
EEEK GAD! that's ugly.
My vote would be to lose the tile and design a piece with out it. as well as ask if he wants to redo his trim package thruout the house.
I know he wants to keep the tile so I guess do a simple mock up, one with the tile and the other with your trim design going up to the unit.
I don't know what he is like - some customers are easliy swayed if you show them some thoughtful and concise ideas. Others want what they want and you just need to give them what they want so they will be happy.
I'm a big fan of proportion and because of the windows being so close I feel the tile will impede the proportion (size) of the legs of your mantel. which is why I feel the tile should go. tell him that.
Edited 10/4/2006 2:12 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 10/4/2006 9:56 am ET by alrightythen
I just looked at your photo again..
it really is bad... a very poor design, everything is already way out of proportion.
does he know how bad this. or does he think "it's all great - now build me a mantel"
I honestly cant see hwo you could keep the tile, as tile is already eating at the windows, so your trim would be even clsoer, if you used the tile as a starting point. and what if down the road someone wants to trim the windows. They'll be like who was the brain that made the mantel so big- now I can't trim out the windows.
fireplace needs to come way down in overall scale and a new trim package would do wonders. I would try an talk him in to fixing it all now - but at the very least keep things in scale, and don't create problems for down the road.
That's just my 2 cents.... I guess 4 cents if you throw in my last post :)
PS I'm not a designer...I'm a framer by trade, and this all just my opinion. good luck.
Edited 10/4/2006 9:52 am ET by alrightythen
Edited 10/4/2006 9:54 am ET by alrightythen
I agree with everyone else - the existing design is awful. Tiles are too big for the fireplace and not enough space around windows.
Here's a quick and dirty Photoshopped image to show how it might be improved.
BruceT
Bruce,
Thanks for the photo. I agree that the tile needs to go. I'm going to see if I can convince him to remove them for something smaller. With the tile out, the design becomes very easy.
By the way, this is a whole subvision of townhomes all with the same fireplaces. Anyone looking for some work? I bet others in the neighborhood would like the same thing done. “The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
How much of the tile is "needed" as non-combustible surrounds to the fireplace. (Check manufacturer's install instructions.) I'd bet its not all required, especially on the sides. Assuming the tile is well adhered, you can design your mantle to go over the tile, up to the required clearance line. There still may not be enough space for a really nice design but a whole lot better than now.
you still need the code minimum of non-flamable surface to each side and above, so You might leave the tile, and desiogn whatever to mount over it.
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Here's my first idea. The customer likes traditional. Actually he was looking for a nautical/Nantucket look. I could add some fluting on the legs and a little more trim around the edges to dress it up.
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
The City of Naperville has adopted the 2000 edition of the International Building Code published by the International Code Council for residential, commercial and multifamily construction.
Anyone here have access to the code that could provide the requirements for a non-combustible surround on a fireplace?
thanksJoe“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
FYI,
I don't know if you are a resident, or that's just the location of your client, but the Naperville public library has copies of the 2000 IBC in their reference section as well as several books on interpretation, etc.
Have fun.
Mantel and Trim. Any wood can not be within 6". And within 12" it can't project more than 1/8" for every 1" from the opening.You can download a copy of the IRC2000 here.http://support.broderbund.com/download_desc.asp?dlid=384It is a self exmpanding set of PDF files.
Didn't he mention ICC? instead of IRC?
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Actually I misread it.But so did you.The ICC is not a code. They publish the codes, including the IRC and the IBC.It looks like they adopted the IBC.But the IRC is a sub-set of the IBC (and other related codes). But that does not mean that this is the same, although likely it is.But to really know what is going on you need to check the adoption ordiance.I see there that they really adopted the "package" which includes the IRC."Below is a listing of all applicable Naperville codes: *
2000 International Building Code
*
2000 International Property Maintenance Code
*
2000 International Electric Code
*
2000 International Energy Code
*
2000 International Fire Code
*
2000 International Fuel Gas Code
*
2000 International Mechanical Code
*
2000 International Plumbing Code
*
2000 International Residential Code
*
1999 National Electric Code (N.E.C.)
*
Illinois State Plumbing Code
*
1997 Illinois Accessibility Code
*
Naperville Building Code Amendments, Municipal Code Title V
*
Elevators: ASME A17.1 1996 Versions"But notice the next the last item.You have to go through that to see wha they have screwed with.In fact it is not until you get way down into it that you see that Don't allow the use of romex, UF or even AC (BX) cables.But a quick look did not see where the fireplace clearance in the IRC was modified. But no guarantees.http://www.naperville.il.us/dynamic_content.aspx?id=261
Edited 10/4/2006 2:09 pm by BillHartmann
dam you're good at this research.You do as well finding stocks to invest in?
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I understand the 1/8" of depth per 1" away from the fireplace, but how do you account for the actual top shelf? According to this rule, a 6" shelf would have to be 4 feet from the fireplace. “The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
That is only in the 6 - 12" range. After you get 12" away it can 10 ft wide.
that is a mater of local interpretation tho
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I was thinking along the same lines as your design.
I'd try to reveal an equal width of tile around the perimiter, both the top and sides, If the customer for what ever reason will not go for replacing the tile, there is a chance you could cut it in place with a diamond wheel in a grinder.
Maybe 6" instead of 12", peel the cut waste portion off and hopefully leave the remaining in-tact.
IMO that will still look like poop. I'd really to sell the H/O on using new tile or other material, maybe thin black granite slabs glued up in between your new mantle and the firebox and replace the floor tile with a matching granite tile?
Either way, it's hard to polish that big of turd.
That would work, as long as the AHJ does not require something silly like 8 or 10" non-combustable around the f/p box (as some local ones do).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Bruce, and it is still a turd. A nice turd, but still a turd. I am sure the customer would like to hear that. Ouch!
The idea it's a modern look doesn't fit the mantle. Everyone is right that this sucks in many ways, thinking traditional.
Consider a wrought iron ledge type mantle with side bracketed or corble legs down to the hearth. Border between the tile and flooring with a band of the same iron.
The edge of the mantle could be radiused or flourished with scroll work. You could go from a very industrial look to victorian to modern.
This could also be done of a powder coated metal and done in many colors.
Using metal your able to reduce the basic size of materials and give some since of proportion.
Good luck
That would be "Mission Impossible" around here. Local rules call for 12" (minimum) between the fireplace and any combustable material. If those are 12" tiles, you get about 2"-3" on each side to make something pretty.
If I really had to do this, I would remove the window stool and try to do something that ties the whole thing together.
As my moniker suggests, I'm a door guy, but I used to build custom mantels back in the 80's.
I wouldn't do ANYTHING without addressing the code issue first.
There have been some good ideas for solutions. My idea would be to attach a simple wood shelf--possibly 3-4 inches tall and 6-8 inches deep, made from the same material or species as the floor and finish it to match. Simplistic, clean, and modern--like the rest of the room.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
That drawing is similar to what I am trying to envision. The problem is that the end projections from the top mantle will end up in the window, I'm afraid.
The setbacks are from the firebox openning so that is where you will measure from to meet code, but you should paay attention to proportion too, leaving more tile than metal, and the top is a greater non-flamable requirement than the sides. find that out and go from theere. Another problem is that you show a fair projection as drawn. But the more it projects, the more it must move to the side away from the openning. You don't have that room, so the projection can only be a couple inches for the legs and maybe three for the base of the top.
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So, after I cleaned the coffee off the flat screen . . .
What national/big builder built that?
Ok, seriously; best bet to match, design-wise, is to go Modern. The mantel should clearly be as wide as the tile (anything less looks like the abomination they already have). I'm thinking a box about 8" tall, 10-11" deep, full width, with a smaller box underneath, oh, 1 1/2" less wide, 1-2" tall, stepped back at least an inch in depth, to give a "rabbetted" sort of look. (I'd sneak a slot up in there with some dowels behind the upper skirt to hang xmas stockings from, too.)
Since this is going to be open to do it right, and the customer really can't get what they want with a "legged" surround, offer one of those things that can make a less-happy customer moreso, put in a flush electrical outlet on top of the mantel. (Worth buying a nice brass floor box, to my thinking & experience.)
One I have played with is the idea of asome sort of tile bolection for legs, but I can't get it top work through in my head.Actually, now that I think of it, a tile bolection perimeter and a higher separate wider mantle would do the job here, except for the fact that it will be too crowded no matter....CAG said it best. There ain't enuf paper and wax to polish this tird
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Actually, now that I think of it, a tile bolection perimeter and a higher separate wider mantle would do the job here, except for the fact that it will be too crowded no matter
I had a thought (dangerous though that may be) while going to lunch--go with a tile/stone column/pilaster to make the surround. Something about not beating but joining "them" on this one.
Tricky part there, is that I'd likely have to slip some stonework into the window trim to tie it all together, and the "simple" mantel job gets all out of hand . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
yeah, we'd have to redecorate the whole room as a Roman slave quarters.
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Ouch!
Well, from what I remember, if this considered a fireplace, then setbacks are going to kill you. If it is a heater, then the codes are a little more leinient. But I can't rember the idfference since I haven't delt with in 6-7 years. Codes have probably change since then.
It also depends on the interpretation of the code. One inspector that we worked with said it was from the opening or glass face, another said that it was from the outside metal edge. I would ask first, solves your potential problem.
___
This was in about 1990. so specifics are foggy
One mantel I did was basically 2) 6" legs that stuck out about 2" or so and they had nothing but a 3/4" bullnose on both sides. A corbel was mounted on each leg. These corbels were plaster and had sort of a "modern" feel. They probably hung down 12". No base detail. Legs just sat on the hearth.
The top was 2) 1 1/2" thick tops that were full 1/2 round bullnoses(maybe it was 2", I don't rember). Then there was a smaller piece of 3/4" or 1" material sandwich between the two tops.
For me, it seemd to work since I built about 10 of these for one track of homes. Probably took about 3 hours to build one and 1 hour for each install. 1 1/2 days worth of work in the end, including priming. $1000 a pop wasn't bad
By the way. It's funny now, but I once lost a customer because in a newspaper ad I spelled the word M-A-N-T-L-E, (as in The Mick, or a cloak or cover) instead of the correct M-A-N-T-E-L. She would never deal "with anyone as ignorant as that"
Oh well. I got over it, but I now know how it's spelled.
"Kinky for Gov. of Texas"
Thanks for that information. I didn't know the correct spelling either. Interestingly, dictionary.com lists MANTLE as an alternate spelling for MANTEL, but that's probably just in response to its common mis-usage.
-Don
cast stone columns with bases and capitals, stone mantel on top.
or stone pilasters and mantel
I think you've got your hands full coming up with something that works here.
I agree with a lot who have already responded. I would try to design a mantle that covers about 1/2 the tile and takes the returns right to the window edges. modern sure seems like the way to go. I like the 3d model drawing that was posted. One thought if the clearance needs to be 12" inches is to construct the mantle out of some alternative non combustible materials. (wroaght iron, stainless, glass?) just a thought. the legs do need to stop at the edge of the attempt at a hearth. there are some fireplace idea books out there that might be worth you having to show customers. I have a couple and have used them often to convey ideas or hone in on a style the customer likes. good luck.
by the way , to all, I'm impressed at how you all jump in with good ideas. this is a great place to field questions. thanks for making this a great site to hang out in.
Jay
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
Attach a 2 by 4 on each side of the tile ends, then cover with mdf. The mantle then has a soft curve across. Paint the outside fire box the same as the mantle. Make sure the mantle has a heaver (thicker) look than the sides. The tile is modern looking so go with it. Burns
Since this fireplace looks like a zero clearance non masonry fireplace aren't the rules different? Doesn't the manufacturer's requirements overrule?
My suggested design would be a more modern look of a built up casing similar to a door opening except just more massive. You then don't have the problem of overhang on the top just mitered corners.
My 2 cents...
Not the rules outside the built-in. The manufacturer dictates the clearance inside the wall to the unit based on their testing, but the spread of heat and sparks outsdie the openning is the same for any manufactureryour surrond detail suggestion is what I was referring to as a bollection
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How about this for a solution - see attachment.
The surround is no closer than 6" and the legs and arch can be made out of 3/4" stock. I would build the legs almost like cabinet doors.“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Hey! Move to the front of the class. No wonder she wants you to fix this!only thing I would do different, is to make the bottom of the legs larger, as a plinth, or like the bottom rail of a entry door is taller than the lock rail or top rail.
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Thanks. I agree that the bottom needs some kind of base. If I follow the code exactly, I can't really put on a plinth block. I might be able to cheat a little bit though.
What would be the best means to attach the legs to the tiles? Constuction adhesive? Screws thru the tile? Any other ideas?
thanks for everyone's help.
Joe“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
You could use 5/4 for base and 3/4" for the rest, or just use all 3/4 and make that bottom rail taller, say 4-5"I would probably use adhesive, but you can also countersink and dril through and use tapcons or other screws.You ARE going to post photos when this is all finished, right?
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I'm finally about to install this mantel this weekend. I want to use an adhesive to attach the side legs. Any recommendations on an appropriate adhesive for this application?
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Construction adhesive. It's what i used on my fireplace surround.
Thanks for the response.
But just to confirm, standard construction adhesive from Liquid Nails will work? heat is not an issue?“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
use Pl premium..
way better than liquid nails..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
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Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Many folks prefer PL over Liquid nails. Either one will work fine here; heat is not an issue as you're applying trim to tile on the outside of the fireplace, with what looks like a 6" reveal or so.
You ARE going to post photos when this is all finished, right?
Well, here's the final mantel...
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Nice work there.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Very nice. Crisp lines.
Good job there. I like that kind of display in my presentation book, where you can show before, plans and finished all in same perspective view! Clients do too.So, is the client happy?
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He was happy when I showed him the plans and he still likes it now that it's in.
He wants me to add crown molding to the room after Christmas. He also gave me a jar of sauce and meatballs from his favorite Italian place in W. Virginia. That says it all.
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Well done! The arch makes a huge difference.
BruceT
Very nice,How did you figure and lay out the arch?Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
How did you figure and lay out the arch?
It's actually two pieces of 3/4" plywood. The center decorative piece is covering the gap between the two pieces. To get the arch, I knew I wanted the height of the panel at the center of the arch at 4" and 9" at the left and right ends. I screwed the two pieces together so the two sides would be identical. From there, I used a slat of 1/4" hardwood fixed at the 9" and 4" marks and just bent it and traced when it looked good. Cut it with a jigsaw and sanded it with a sander on my drillpress.
Does that make sense?“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Thanx for the info. Once again. Nice work.Chuck Slive, work, build, ...better with wood
i like your design !!
But would replace the tiles with some smaller ones.
one course of 3"
or two couses of 2" with a 4" square at the corners.
not more than 4" wide on the tile...
post a pic of what you finally end up with...Namaste
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character." -Big Cal Stew 2006
"There are 2 kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and everyone else" -Gloria Steinham
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Well lemme tell ya li'l cowpoke...
when a snake falls in love with the spaghetti, it's time to buy a new hat... - Scott Adams
I may not want to admit it but I'm a fool for your stockings I believe... ZZ-Top
I agree that the tiles should be removed for something smaller, but they're existing. Customer wants to minimize cost and he likes the design I proposed, so they're staying.
I'll post a pic when it's complete. Thanks
“The richest genius, like the most fertile soil, when uncultivated, shoots up into the rankest weeds..” – Hume
Someone here said:
"The satisfaction from a well done job will be around far after the excitement of low price has faded away..."
take the tiles off !!
not much extra to have it look like it wasn't cobbled together...
JMNSHO..Namaste
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character." -Big Cal Stew 2006
"There are 2 kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and everyone else" -Gloria Steinham
"The shrub administration is a bunch of Focking CrIminals" -Me
Well lemme tell ya li'l cowpoke...
when a snake falls in love with the spaghetti, it's time to buy a new hat... - Scott Adams
I may not want to admit it but I'm a fool for your stockings I believe... ZZ-Top
"The satisfaction from a well done job will be around far after the excitement of low price has faded away..."
who said that...I'd like to keep that one.
the resinator (rez) had it as a tagline for a while...Namaste
"The truth, when told does nothing but bolster a mans character." -Big Cal Stew 2006
"There are 2 kinds of people in the world, those who divide the world into 2 kinds of people and everyone else" -Gloria Steinham
"The shrub administration is a bunch of Focking CrIminals" -Me
Well lemme tell ya li'l cowpoke...
when a snake falls in love with the spaghetti, it's time to buy a new hat... - Scott Adams
I may not want to admit it but I'm a fool for your stockings I believe... ZZ-Top
not much extra to have it look like it wasn't cobbled together...
Exactly, how much could it cost to replace with another tile. If the budget is that tight maybe the guy should wait until he has saved up enough to do it right!
Doug
For what you have to work with your design looks good. I agree that a wider and thicker smooth plinth would help the bottom of the legs "support" the top.
You might like the look of a larger mantel shelf, and it might look best if it extends into the window openings 1/4-1/2" and returns all the way to the window. It needs all the room it can get or it looks squished. This may mess with the window shades, or at least require some careful trimming, but would seem to add a little visual interest to it.
Along the same lines, I'd be very temped to let a smooth foundation board, providing a background for the legs, wrap around the window openings and help the mantel become a central more prominent feature instead of something squished between the windows. This would also add a little visual interest and draw the windows and mantel together.
This doesn't mean you need to eat into the window frame reveal since chunking out the sheetrock on the mantel side would allow the wrapped woodwork to preserve the reveal.
The window stool/apron could also be modified to blend into the mantel or at least changed so everything looks like it belongs together.
I had a few other thoughts, but if there is a tight budget they are probably out of the question.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I like it
spacially, that curved front matle does flow with the tight space and is a modern compliment to what is there. But there are better ways than 2x4 to make a base connection. you need a more stable wood near that fire. 2x4 will warp, twist and check, stressing the finished product over time
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"But there are better ways than 2x4 to make a base connection. you need a more stable wood near that fire. 2x4 will warp, twist and check, stressing the finished product over time"
I had to build up the wall in front of a fireplace that projected out of the wall. Because the stack ran into the wall and up the chase, I tapered the wall to meet the standard wall at the ceiling. The angles were a major PITA. I used steel studs for this--they can be tweaked and cut to meet the funny angles, and they are stable. Also, they are fire-resistant, and you can get pretty much as close as you want to the fireplace.
With 5/8 firecode drywall on the studs, it still sounds a little metallic when you tap on it, but I think that is more noticeable to me than anybody else.