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Marble going bad?

Sphere | Posted in General Discussion on October 23, 2007 11:36am

My customer has a really wierd situation I have never seen.

A marble fireplace surround circa 1915, a exterior chimney behind, that I know has leaked in the past, evident by crumbling plaster above the mantle..today raining cats and dogs, no visible water inside, either the flue or the brick behind the bad plaster.

But. The marble mantle shelf has one corner that is crumbling , like sand. Also there are some raised flower carvings, (and a pair of Urchins flanking the fire box) that have the same sort of damage, similar to efflouressence only at the outer most extremes ( like the edges of the flowers petals) and the elbow of the Urchin.

I left my damm camera at the site , but I can post the pics tomorrow eve or so.

It is the damdest thing I ever saw. I am pretty sure moisture is a culprit in some way, the chimney above this room ( second floor, BTW) will be getting the wash redone, and all reflashed, but as I said, there is no real signs of active leaking from my poking around in floor 3 above this room

So, how would I STOP the damage and resolidify what is crumbleing?  It almost acts like sandstone that is rotting.

Any exp with this?

Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

“If you want something you’ve never had, do something you’ve never done”

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Replies

  1. DanH | Oct 23, 2007 11:48pm | #1

    I know that anything acid will destroy marble, but strong alkali can be bad too. Also heat will do it.

    Beyond that, apparently "sulfation" (due to sulfates in the air) will turn marble into gypsum. Likely certain cleaners could do the same thing, as could sulfur from the fire or from heavy smoking.

    I did notice that, eg, marble from the Philadelphia area (mined in the early 1800s) has a reputation for rapid deterioration, and likely some other locally-mined marbles have similar problems.

    If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
    1. User avater
      Sphere | Oct 24, 2007 12:09am | #2

      OK, Could prior leakage of rain water , possibly "acid rain" be a factor? Or maybe that coal was burnt in the upstairs fireplace box? That would certainly be the sulferous condition you mention.

      I'll not focus on the cause as much as the repair ( I think maybe CA glue?) to stop the thing from spreading, as it seems to be doing.  For now.

      I can't think that there would be a driving force to push the water (if thats it) inside..this is also the leeward side of prevailing more or less..almost due North wall. On the mantle shelf top, the 'rot' seems to follow a vien, like a tunnel from a termite or carp ant, that follows the soft wood..but Marble?

      I am really wishing I had the pics right now, this is incredible.  This house is a 9000sqft Museum-esque restoration project,, that is getting the full Monty makeover, or more apt, restored to 1915 with modern conviences like all upgrades to 1200 AMP service, and completely re-plumbed. I'll be there for quite awhile, just undoing the modern izing from the 50's and then again in the '70's.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

      "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

      1. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 12:40am | #3

        Whatever chemicals get into a soft streak in the marble would be expected to be conducted through like a wick. This may give you some clues as to the origin of the chemicals, as you can follow the cracks back to where they connect with other structures.I don't think there's any way to reverse the deterioration, and you obviously need to be careful about applying stuff that could do more damage. If this thing is considered particularly valuable it might be best to consult an art conservator, or at least dig up an old Union Carbide chemist to hash it over with.This may give you some ideas: http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/2003/0645.html

        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Oct 24, 2007 01:25am | #4

          Thanks, I'm gonna hook the HO up with this thread Wednesday. Let him have the info.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

        2. Piffin | Oct 24, 2007 03:55am | #9

          "be careful about applying stuff that could do more damage. "Amen to that! I had something with a stain in it and caled a guy I knew who did marble gravestone repair and restroration and he declined. Said all the different marbles hve heir own unique problems. He referred me to somebody else who took care of it.Sphere - that was in one of Travolta's bathrooms 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      2. Piffin | Oct 24, 2007 03:50am | #7

        I remember my stone guy telling me that all marbles on the market now have some amt of epoxy fill in the seams etc before it is cut to hold it together. So I know there is epoxy formulated for marbles. maybe google something like marble restoration.The period homes ( traditional building) site has a lot of links to experts and specialists and information for restoration work too. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Oct 24, 2007 03:55am | #8

          Thanks, I REALLY would like to preserve this element of the home, it is quite the work of art.  I was actually a little PO'd the owners hadn't brought it to my attn sooner, but I have a full plate as is, and another major refurb is not really good timing right now.

          I'll bone up on the methods that may work.  I'd hate the cure to be worse than the ailment.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

  2. Piffin | Oct 24, 2007 03:17am | #5

    Houses built in that era often used ccoal burning fireplaces.

    That means sulphur build up in the chimney and resultin sulphuric acid when it gets wet from rain or condensation. Acids will damage marble pretty easily. Marble is just a dense limestone which is very alkaline.

    Mix vinegar and soda together and see the same reaction - only faster

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. User avater
      Sphere | Oct 24, 2007 03:27am | #6

      So yer saying the damage is halted when burning is stopped, or leachate is still gonna happen forever or it is trashed and move on with repairs?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

      "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

      1. Piffin | Oct 24, 2007 03:59am | #10

        is it trashed? I can't se it from heere.If there is still ulp[hur in the chimney flue to leach back down it could keep getting worse. but I am thinking that epoxy could be used to fill the weak spots and voids to seal and stabilize it, but it might be necessary to rinse it clean with some special seret magic formula first. At this point I have now said as much as I know.Want me to keep talking?;) 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          Sphere | Oct 24, 2007 04:16am | #11

          LOL...You want me to keep reading? (G)

          I'll figgure out what is what.

          You done good.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

          "If you want something you've never had, do something you've never done"

      2. DanH | Oct 24, 2007 04:24am | #12

        I think if it's reasonably possible the marble should be removed, probably washed with neutral water, then maybe sealed. And before reinstalling probably some sort of barrier should be installed between it and any masonry.
        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

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