I’ve got a black marble floor in my kitchen and foyer. The grout is missing in quite a few areas, so I had a guy come over to regrout. He used the same nonsanded grout (tiles are 1/8″ spaced). He did not remove any of the old grout before he regrouted. Well, after 2 days, the new grout started coming up in little pieces and powder. I have been helping him (actually doing it all myself) to now remove all of the grout so he can start over. However, there’s another problem…
There are six tiles (so far) that have come loose from removing the grout. There is a very thin sheet of plywood that most of these tiles were layed on. One loose tile in the foyer was layed on backerboard. So, those tiles need to be reset. Also, the grout was not just coming up around only the loose tiles.
My questions are: What’s the best “glue” to use to reset these loose tiles? Does he have to wait until that is dry before he can regrout the whole floor? Is there something he can put into the spaces before he regrouts so that the water doesn’t get soaked up by the plywood too soon (his theory why the grout became so brittle)? Any advice on this would be GREATLY appreciated.
Thanks, guys!!
Jeannie
Replies
Welcome to the forum. We knows lots about lots, but there's a better place to get tile info. Try johnbridge.com
It sounds like the best repair would be to try to remove all the tiles and re-lay them. If he mixed the new grout properly and cleaned out the cavities, there's no reason to remove the grout that was not failing.
How do you know it's a thin sheet of plywood? How thin? Interesting that part of the floor is covered with backerboard. Any idea why>
The best "glue" would be a polymer modified thinset, comes in a bag (or maybe a box for small quantities), available at HD and Lowes. Lowes carries Mapei brand and I like it. HD carries Custom Versabond, and it works well too. Yes, the thinset must be alloed to dry overnight before grouting. Even then, it had not reached full strength. They do sell a thinset called Rapid Set ( usually has RS in the name) that sets quickly and can be grouted 2-3 hours after installation.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thanks for the advice and the web site info. I'm going to check and see how much it would cost just to replace the whole thing. If I just end up resetting the few loose pieces of marble and regrouting, I still would like to know how to keep the water from evaporating too fast or from getting soaked up by the plywood underneath. Any answers there?
Jeannie
Jeannie, any tilesetter worth his salt would not install tile onto plywood. Better setting beds include backerboard, a mud bed, or a membrane.Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Yes, I'm finding this out about the plywood. Do you know of any way to get the marble up without cracking it? Or is this impossible? I thought I'd at least try before I have to go buy new flooring.
Thanks.
Jeannie
Try tapping on the tiles with the butt end of a table knife. Those that are well stuck will have a nice sound, those that are loose, or not well stuck, will have a hollow sound. It's a little hard to explain, but when you tap on a loose one the difference is obvious.
Anyway, the loose ones will probably pop up fairly easily. You could try using a hamburger spatula from the kitchen ... work it under the tile and lift gently. HD and Lowes sell a tool called a margin trowel ... looks like a small spatula ... you'll find it in the tile dept ... very handy tool. While yopu're there, buy a grout saw. It only costs about $5 and is worth every penny. Looks like a plastic handle with a bent blade and some large grit stuck to the blade. You don't need to buy a power tool. Use that to remove as much grout as you can before trying to pop up the tile, and you will break fewer.
Depending on how well the thinset is stuck to the back of the tile, it might be easier to toss them all and buy new ones. If you want to try to remove the thinset, go outside, lay the tile face down in the grass, and use a belt sander with a coarse grit.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thanks for all of your suggestions concerning my marble floor. I actually have been able to get most of the tiles up whole without cracking them. However, there are tiles underneath my dishwasher and my trash compactor that I can't get to by myself. And, there actually is plywood under all of the tiles, not backerboard under some like I had thought.
So, what do I do now?? There is not very much thinset on the plywood itself (it came up with the tiles). Do I scrape what's left of the thinset off of the plywood and maybe seal it with something before I start over with different tiles? Or do I put a layer of backerboard on top of the plywood that's already in place? And will the dishwasher and trashcompactor fit back into their spots under the cabinets if i do add another layer?
I've decided NOT to reuse these tiles, by the way. I'm thinking of going with granite....any advice there?
I've got a lot of questions, don't I!!
Thank you for your help.
Jeannie
If you add a layer of backerboard on top of the ply, the thinnest you can get is 1/4", so you're going to have about a 3/8" height difference at the tiles under the dishwasher. And, to properly install it, you need to trowel down a layer of thinset, then lay the Hardie, then scrw it to the ply every 8 inches or so. It's a lot of work, but it makes for a good tiling surface. If you don't already have one, an impact driver really makes setting the screws easy. Look in the Tool discussion for more info on the driver.
Another way to prepare the floor is to apply a membrane. I just instalkled one from Dal-Tile, it's a clone of the Noble product, and Ditra makes one also. It's like a really thick roll of plastic drop cloth. But 'really thick' is relative, cuz it's only about 1/32". You have to 'glue' it to the plywood with either a special goo, or thinset. It takes a little work, cuz you have to roll out the air bubbles, but overall it's a little easier than the Hardie and much thinner.
You will need to remove the excess thinset from the ply before attempting to re-lay tile. Don't try to get down to bare wood, like there never was thinset, but it must be smooth. Any lumps of old thinset will interfere with the new tile.
Granite tiles will work well on the floor, but usually they are polished, and could be slippery when wet. You might look at a through body porcelain tile.
Where are you?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Whew...I'm getting all sorts of information on this problem.
Almost all (85%) of the thinset came up with the marble tiles, so there is not much on the plywood anyway. That membrane idea is very interesting. Do you think the tile and grout came up because the plywood may have a little "play" in it (some have suggested that the plywood moved too much up and down and caused the looseness), or as others have suggested, the plywood soaked up too much of the moisture from the thinset and the grout and made it weak.
If it was a moisture problem, it sounds like that membrane would be waterproof and might would prevent that problem. If it's the other, it doesn't sound like it would make the subfloor any more sturdy than it is. Does it work pretty well (as good as using the backerboard) as far as longlasting and really sticking to the plywood as well as the tiles? Is this membrane a new product, or has it been around awhile?
I'm really liking the idea that it's much thinner than the backerboard...I don't think my dishwasher and trash compactor would fit adding the extra 3/8" plus. Well, it would be VERY close anyway. And, all the baseboard trim would either have to be cut or replaced if I add any more height. If you think this membrane is an excellent product, I'd very much like to check into it further.
About the granite....my kitchen and foyer really need to have black tile. I've checked other colors, and black really is much better than all the rest. I like some of the stone-looking ceramics, but I havent' found one in black that looks very good. The marble looked FANTASTIC, but I'm not going that route again!! Oh, I'm in Northern Arkansas.
Thank you, Ed!
Jeannie
The membrane is not a new product. It will add zero strength to the floor, as far as stiffness goes. And stiffness (lack of deflection under load) is important for a stone floor. Hardiebacker also adds very little stiffness. To make the floor stronger, you need to add plywood, and it needs to be added properly: it should be glued and screwed to the subfloor. The membrane and the Hardie both provide a very good surface for the tile to adhere to. The difference is that the membrane also adds waterproofing (which is probably not an issue for you) and it helps to prevent cracked tiles and grout caused by minor movement of the floor structure.
So the tile is gone. Can you also remove the ply? If so, throw it away and buy new ply of the same thickness (that will not make the floor any higher than it used to be) or thicker if possible, and glue and screw it to the subfloor.
Depending on the style of the base and your personal taste, you could leave the base in place, tile up to it, and then add a quarter round or shoe mould to cover the edge of the tile.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Hi, Ed.
Ok, what's the reasoning for pulling up the old plywood just so I can put down new plywood of the same thickness? Not that that makes any sense to me, because I don't know how thick the original floor is to begin with!! I do know that the piece of plywood that I can now stand on is only 1/4" thick. I know this because one edge of it under one cabinet is barely exposed, and I can feel it with my finger. And, it looks like it's only glued in place, because I don't see any screws or anything else holding it down. What I don't know is how thick the plywood underneath this thin sheet is. How do I find this out? I feel like I'm digging a big hole that keeps getting deeper and deeper and deeper..... AAAHHHHHHH!!!!
Jeannie
I am going to guess that you may have Luan plywood on your floor; something others may have missed.
Luan (at least for this purpose) is considered a 'hardwood' and id not suitable for a substrate for tile.
As many people as you ask, you will probably get as many answers. I will tell you this is not a doiturself kind of project.
You are best to visit a local tile supply house and get some referrals for local, competent tile contractors.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Dang ozark hillbillies and their incessant questions!
If the existing ply is only 1/4", then it isn't doing much good. It would be worth knowing the floor structure so you could develop an intelligent plan. Floor stiffness, or lack of deflection, is stated by L/(a number) ... and I'm ignorant in this realm. Something like L/240 is a safe number (the floor won't collapse), but the china cabinet might rattle when you walk by. L/360 means that there won't be any perceptible 'bounce' to the floor. L/480 feels like a very solid floor, and is fine for ceramic tiles. But you need to get to something like L/960 for stone tiles, cuz they don't tolerate flexing at all. Those numbers are from memory, and may not be right, but the point is that a stone floor has very high requirements if it's done properly.
Most stone tiles need a floor structure of about 1-1/2", so if you have 1x6 boards or 3/4" ply on top of the floor joists, then you're half way there. It would be good if you could pull the 1/4" ply and replace it with something thicker ... 3/4" is best, 5/8" would work, etc. And it should be glued and screwd to the subfloor. If you can't or don't want to add thicker ply, then leave the 1/4" in place and add a crack control membrane. It will (supposedly) prevent cracks in the tile, and will provide a good surface for the tile.
You might see if the local HD or Lowes has a book by Michael Byrne "Setting Tile". It's a paperback book that sells for about $20 and will walk you step by step through all kinds of tile setting. Or keep asking questions here :)
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Thank you so much for all of your help! I'm certainly learning a lot. I've got a tile guy coming over in a couple of days to help me. I feel like I'm armed with lots of information now so I can talk to him. I'll let you know how it all turns out!!
Jeannie
Why not do the work yourself? Got a digital camera? Post pictures and we'll help. It's not like you're doing brain surgery (but if you were, we could help with that too).
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Jeannie,
This to address not your major problem but one of them anyhow. Before you base any decisions about the thickness of new underlayment or thickness of tile on the fit of your dishwasher beneath the countertop, remove the bottom front panel of the dishwasher and look with a flashlight at what is resting on the floor surface. Lots of dishwashers, particularly newer models, have a threaded height adjustment if the appliance is supported on "legs". It's possible that the distance from floor level to the top of the unit could be lessened by turning the threaded adjuster. If the front two "legs" of the washer are adjustable, be certain that the rear supports are also similarly adjustable; some units have a fixed support at the rear and can be adjusted only at the front. Good luck. Zbalk
I don't think my dishwasher and trash compactor would fit adding the extra 3/8" plus
Actually, most under-counter appliances have height adjustments built in to their feet for just this reason. The adjustments are often hidden by the front covers.
It sounds like you have whole tiles extending into the appliance spaces. This can be both good and bad. Some tile people will just not cut the tiles in those areas, and trust to the appliance installer to either shim or adjust the back legs/feet/rollers on the appliances. Others will tile all the way back. Either way, you are likely looking at learning about installation of u/c appliances.
Luckily, most u/c appliances are really fairly simple to get in an out of position (typically easier than stripping an entire floor of tile <g>). Since your "finish" floor is already out of the way, it is actually easier in some ways.
Ed's been giving you the same advice I would. The membrane sealer is likely your best bet, even though you have the entire floor up (that normally moots any argument about backer board. I'll second his vote for a non-glossy tile, too. I like terra cotta tile for that reason, or "saltillo" style. Sizes, shapes, and configurations are down to what your are tough enough to either do yourself or hire out.
Though it sure does sound like you have more than your fair share of sweat equity in the project.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)