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Discussion Forum

Market niche to simply pay bills?

IdahoDon | Posted in Business on September 5, 2008 10:19am

Does anyone have some good ideas for market niches that normally aren’t worth the effort for contractors, but when things are tight make more sense?  Installing blinds, alarm systems, locksmithing, light commercial, or ?

The last time I had any down time from lack of work was right after 9/11, and even then I simply worked for another contractor who fell into a large remodel until the following summer, but our slow market hit a new low.  Now I can appreciate what those of you are up against in the really slow markets.

Last year was slow for new construction so there were many new faces in remodeling as those guys tried to underbid the remodelers (and many lost their shirts).  This year was even worse and many new construction crews, framing or whatnot, went away or are down to the two core guys.  Remodeling went south this summer and we’re all feeling the crunch that the new construction guys felt already.

I hate to do it, but rates all over are going down (supply and demand), and we’re all having to do things we don’t normally consider to pay bills and stay busy until things pick up next spring.  Good small contractors are turning into apartment rental maintence guys, handymen, or installing doggie doors and whatnot off of craigslist.

Many of my subs simply don’t have work and are working on their own homes/rentals and waiting it out. If a winter project doesn’t come along I may have to take a totally unrelated job.

I can’t imagine what the guys at the bottom are doing for work if many good carpenters/contractors with solid experience (lic & ins) and great portfolios are working for $15/hr. and still not staying busy.

I’m a firm believer that even in the worst of times someone somewhere has fallen into a project larger than they have the people for and are hiring, but I’m still looking.

Cheers

 

 

Beer was created so carpenters wouldn’t rule the world.

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Replies

  1. DanH | Sep 05, 2008 10:41pm | #1

    I think it might be interesting (and maybe useful) to literally go door-to-door in a few different neighborhoods and ask what kind of work residents might be considering/wanting. Probably work up a little questionaire -- how long have you lived here, how long do you think you'll stay, how many in the family, what kind of work previously done, etc. Don't fake being a pollster, of course -- just say you're a contractor seeking to identify new opportunities in the community.

    In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
    1. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 12:23am | #10

      Working the doors around current and past clients is a good idea and high on my list.  I have some clients in some exclusive areas and hope that turns into some leads.

      If there was one thing I hated when starting out as a realtor, it was working the doors.  I'm sort of clean cut in a tie and white shirt so the mormans would always welcome me in thinking I'm one of their peeps, and everyone else thought I was going to ask them if they'd like a complimentory book of morman.  In Carharts I wonder what they will think this time?  *chuckle* 

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

  2. Ceasar | Sep 05, 2008 10:56pm | #2

    hey man I feel your pain! Only in the last month or so did we start feeling the pinch, after really steady work after 11 years. Our work leads now are small bath remodels and other small projects. We have six employees and small projects don't last long on the schedule, used to major remodels and new construction homes- got spoiled I guess, work always came our way; now we have ben aggressively seeking work and with not much success. For the first time ever, some guys have had to take a couple of days of this summer (they didm't to mind)but it bothered me and sent off alarms in my head about the sign of the timesflags to me mentally.But hey, our backs may be against the wall and all we must is keep the nose to the grindstone.
    Our company overhead wont allow us to do anything but fight the good fight everyday, and hopefully thing will start to turn around for all of us. Keep your head up, and stay postive!

    1. Jim_Allen | Sep 05, 2008 11:40pm | #4

      If I were you guys, I'd be streamlining hard and fast. In MI, just about every contractor and sub I know is out of business and many of them have lost their houses. Your best chance at surviving is to get really, really lean as early as possible.

      1. Ceasar | Sep 06, 2008 01:09am | #18

        I know what you mean,we have had all the guys for some time now, and we are all good freinds. Our overhead is pretty high, but we have worked so hard to get this great crew, I will anything to avoid layoffs. As a last resort maybe, but until then It is up to me to sink or swim and sinking does not appeal at all.

        1. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 02:14am | #20

          "we have had all the guys for some time now, and we are all good freinds. Our overhead is pretty high, but we have worked so hard to get this great crew, I will anything to avoid layoffs."That's the big mistake every contractor makes. Instead of looking at the situation realistically, they ruin their business trying to save everyone. Pick one guy and turn the rest loose right now. Tell them you'll use them as you can but they should immediately find better work. In the end, you'll be doing them a favor.

          1. MSA1 | Sep 06, 2008 03:45am | #21

            Its not a fun thing but I agree. Last year I had a guy working for me. This guy was more machine than human, give him a task, back 1/2 hour later and it would be done and right.

            His only fault was that he depended solely on me for income. I finally told him "go somewhere else, your stressing me trying to keep you working".

            He's now with his uncle (my plumber) and is working much steadier and i'm much less stressed.  

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          2. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 03:58am | #22

            And...you probably aren't tempted to take jobs "to keep the guys busy" which is really the beginning of the end.

          3. MSA1 | Sep 06, 2008 04:13am | #23

            I'm about ready to do anything right now. I know its counter-productive (speaking from a goal perspective) but right now were tight. If it wasnt for sugar momma, i'd be posting on "Fine Gas pumping" right now.

            I have to try and sell a bathroom in the morning and I already know i'm not the cheapest estimate she has so i'll have to be on my toes.

            That big reno I mentioned a few weeks ago has changed a little. I think I told you guys were only locked in on the foundation part and i'm not sure what this guy has planned for the rest.

            The problem is that he's new to the game but he wont shut-up long enough to learn anything.

            I wasnt even able to walk him through the entire proposal. When he finally got back to looking at it, he'd ask a question and half way through my explanation he'd focus on something else or ask another question.

            I typed up a letter of acceptance for him and he will listen to my explanation of that or I wont start work. 

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          4. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 04:46am | #25

            Frank told me that he's getting calls for lots of little stuff because most of the contractors and tradesmen have left the state or left the bizness. He's too busy with the foreclosure biz and I mentioned that you might want some of his referrals. Do you want his number? I'll call him tomorrow and give him a heads up that you'll be calling him. He ran into a gc from Birmingham that we did work for. He used to post here as BarryN or something. Anyways, Barry told him he is starving too. He finally sold a spec that we built for him and he only lost a couple hudred thousand on it. He said his plumber was losing his house, electrician, etc...everybody. Frank told him to add the carpenter to the list. It's ugly there and there aint' no easy way back. There's a lot of infrastructure but....

          5. MSA1 | Sep 06, 2008 04:59am | #26

            Thanks Jim, shoot me an e-mail.

            I'm getting such a weird variety of jobs and a ton of tire kickers. I just finished writing a inital estimate for a person with a trashed rental they want fixed.

            I wish they wouldnt call cause no one with a rental will pay my prices. When they do call they get an inital estimate. From now on the full proposal is $500.

            Dont mean to sound ungrateful but with gas as it is, and the time it takes to go out and hear "we need (you name it) and we have a budget of $5000". Just doesnt work.

            They want a price to fix the plumbing and when we did the walk through, the place had been winterized. Unreal.

              

            Family.....They're always there when they need you.

          6. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 05:33am | #27

            I think you might take a different approach to those who are doing "make readies" in the foreclosure market. I know it's not really a fun thought but there will be a lot of work for low budget crews to make money in the rental repair market. I'd suggest setting up two levels of service: low budget and your budget. I started with an old West Virginian carp who used to ask the builder: what kind of work do you want good, gooder or best and he'd laugh when he asked it. But, it was a serious question and if they wanted only his "good" work, he'd price it that way but warn them that he couldn't deliver gooder or best work at that price....it would be slap and go....So, as unseemly as this idea sounds, you probably can find a decent enough crew to sub through and service these get rich quick with real estate guys. If you can pick up a couple hundred on a contract and get two or three crews servicing, you might be onto something. I'll call Frank tomorrow.

          7. alwaysoverbudget | Sep 06, 2008 06:17am | #28

            in the bodywork /paint bussiness,when a guy wanted a full repaint/restoration, i would ask,do you want to show it,do you want it to look good sitting in a parking lot or do you want it to look pretty good going down the road at 30mph after dark,then price accordingly. i would have a guy that saw a car i did win best paint at a show and bring his 59 galaxie over and want to spend 500.00 on it.i'd have to explain that the guy at the show spent 7500.i would actually write on the estimate what to expect on a cheapy job. larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?

          8. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 06:37am | #29

            Exactly. You give the cheap price and lay out the deficiencies that will be there. Let them choose.It's kinda like selling them vinyl siding instead of brick. Not everyone wants brick and the price tag that comes along with it.

    2. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 12:30am | #13

      I'm committed to staying busy to keep my sanity so I may volunteer some down time to past clients that I know are sitting on the fence with other projects hoping it will get them excited about other improvements.  Hellof a way of making a living.  :-) 

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

      1. Ceasar | Sep 06, 2008 12:55am | #15

        In times like these, planting a seed like that could very well work in your favor, it might not be as early as you'd like but it's nice when it happens. These days, I don't miss any kind of public events or gatherings (personal or business). You never know who you talk to and where it may lead. I know keeping busy is critical to a healthy mindset, even if you make much at all.

        1. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 01:04am | #17

          These days, I don't miss any kind of public events or gatherings (personal or business).

          Words to live by. 

          Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

  3. User avater
    Sphere | Sep 05, 2008 11:35pm | #3

    I've fell into restoring OLD windows as a bread and butter type deal. Seems a lot of folks here have old windows and due to either Historic considerations or budget, prefer a refurbished sash or door.

    It pays handsomely, and is variable paced. Few tools required, and ofetn no more than a 20' ladder for the upper/exterior sash, inner/bottom sash can be removed from inside the home..and once inside converation ensues, and that leads to other repairs/needs being mentioned..and it snoballs.

    Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

    Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

     

    They kill Prophets, for Profits.

     

    The world of people goes up and
    down and people go up and down with
    their world; warriors have no business
    following the ups and downs of their
    fellow men.
    1. User avater
      jonblakemore | Sep 05, 2008 11:45pm | #5

      Do you do the work on site or at your shop? If at your shop, how do you protect the house with no windows? 

      Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA

      1. DanH | Sep 05, 2008 11:48pm | #6

        With a big sphere, of course!
        In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan

      2. User avater
        Sphere | Sep 06, 2008 12:02am | #7

        I do it all here at home/shop.

        I make a replacement of lesser quality to be operable at the project house. It will travel from hole to hole as I work around the whole house.

        I often have to abandon the old sash and make new, but I have streamlined the operation ( see my brief thread "Simple Sash") and can make new sash for just about any size opening in a few hours.

        I have few full lite doors ( albeit divided into 21 panes) where I just made a temporay solid door, whilst ( Thanks Grant) I refurbish the original.

         Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

         

        They kill Prophets, for Profits.

         

        The world of people goes up and

        down and people go up and down with

        their world; warriors have no business

        following the ups and downs of their

        fellow men.

    2. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 12:26am | #12

      I hadn't thought of that kind of thing, but it could be an option since people in our historic district want to save the old stuff more and more.    Hmmm..... 

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

      1. User avater
        Sphere | Sep 06, 2008 12:58am | #16

        If you have a glass shop/ supplier nearby, talk with them, leavea stack of cards.

        I came in backwards, they asked ME why I was buying so much glass, I explained what I was up to. They asked me for cards, due to the volume of folks needing either NEW ( replacement windows) or restoring the old. I left cards, my phone stays ringing, I pick and choose and so far have not had to go with the new replacemant windows route, I can fix or REmake almost anything existing.

        I like it, less travel, all at home..if a customer sounds whacky, I'm too busy, if they are sincere and sound solid, I visit.  I must be cheap, I'm battin 90% of my visits to cash. And every job so far has led to more work, a railing, a bookcase, a floor, caulka  skylight..what ever, if I WANT to do it, I tell em a # and get on it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

        Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations

         

        They kill Prophets, for Profits.

         

        The world of people goes up and

        down and people go up and down with

        their world; warriors have no business

        following the ups and downs of their

        fellow men.

    3. User avater
      loucarabasi | Sep 06, 2008 10:59pm | #34

      I have alot of work, but I'm still scared!!! It could have went the other way. I feel for everybody. Lets all hang in there, We'll get through it and be even smarter businessmen and women in the future.

      Lou C

      1. IdahoDon | Sep 07, 2008 03:01am | #37

        Lets all hang in there, We'll get through it and be even smarter businessmen and women in the future.

        The shake out of guys who could care less about carpentry as a career is definitely going to be good once we swing back towards a normal market. 

        Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

  4. DanH | Sep 06, 2008 12:07am | #8

    Another thing to consider is to what extent you can afford (literally) to simply ride out the storm vs having to bail furiously (or bail out). If you have the luxury of some spare cash you can use the downtime for "professional development", learning about new techniques and technologies that will (hopefully) give you a leg up when things improve.

    IBM famously kept all their employees on during the Depression, having them produce punch card machines that were simply warehoused. This turned out to be a stroke of genius when Social Security came into being in 1935 and the government suddenly needed all those machines.

    Of course, if you don't have the spare cash then all you can do is bail furiously, one way or another.

    In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. --Carl Sagan
    1. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 12:18am | #9

      Riding this out isn't an option since most savings went to the docs for what insurance didn't pay when the misses suffered a bad skiing accident early in the year, and a past client is fighting me for the majority of my working capital.  It's just bad timing, sort of a perfect storm of #### for me.   :-) 

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

      1. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 12:24am | #11

        I know the feeling. My wife and I have faced a string of bad things that have stunned us. Now, when something bad hits us, we just look at each other and nod. You name it, it's hit us.

        1. IdahoDon | Sep 06, 2008 12:33am | #14

          The past year has litterally been the most eventful of my professional career and personal life, both good and bad.  I'm looking forward to some of those boring years where nothing seems to change much. 

          Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

          1. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 02:12am | #19

            I know the feeling Don. If someone had told me that my life would so upside down at age 54, I might have taken a job at the Mobil selling gas a few years ago.

  5. fingers | Sep 06, 2008 04:31am | #24

    Two stories.
    I used a guy recently to do some painting. He's from the Dominican Republic, friendly, hard working and he really hustles for work.

    He'll do almost any type of cleaning work.
    You want your house powerwashed, he'll do it. You want it primed and painted afterwards, he'll do it. You want your windows washed, he'll do it. Tile cleaned and regrouted, he'll do it. Oh, you want it done on a Sunday? He'll do it.

    He's got a rental business for parties (tents, tables, chairs, linens, etc.), and has been doing carpet installations for the past three or four years.
    Most of the jobs he does aren't brain surgery, and granted, he works in a fairly affluent area, but I keep telling him he's going to be a very wealthy man one day soon.

    When he came here ten years ago he first worked as a dish washer in a restaurant and would hustle cleaning jobs on his time off. Now he's got three newish looking vans with a built-in commercial carpet cleaning machine in each, a JLG 60' lift for windows, painting etc and who knows what else.

    My point is he has created a niche or several niches that don't require highly specialized, or highly developed skills. (My apologies to all the painters and carpet installers out there.) But he'll do jobs that many won't do because many would consider it below their skill level. But man, the guy stays busy.

    2nd story. I swear this is true.
    A friend of mine is a small painting contractor. He was waiting around at the house of a very good customer of his to let the landscaper in. The homeowners were in Ohio or something. This is a very high end, oceanfront house owned by some very wealthy people.

    Anyway a guy shows up and my friend says "Oh, you must be the landscaper?"

    The guy says, "No, I just clean up the poop!"
    No joke. The guy comes around periodically to clean up after the owners dog. I have no idea of what he charges for it or how often he comes.

    So, there you have it. Two or more ideas to stay busy in a down economy.



    Edited 9/5/2008 9:35 pm ET by fingers

    1. IdahoDon | Sep 07, 2008 02:55am | #36

      So, there you have it. Two or more ideas to stay busy in a down economy.

      Does he charge by the number of poops, tonnage, linear measurement, consistancy, or something else?  I can see it in lights now:   Don's Pooper Scooper and Fine Carpentry Inc. 

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

  6. lettusbee | Sep 06, 2008 07:44am | #30

         Last fall I placed an ad in the paper for gutter cleaning.  I received an amazing response.  I stayed busy for three weeks straight doing work that I normally would consider beneath me.  I charged enought that If I hustled, I'd make $25.00 an hour.  I wasn't doing it for the profit though.   I did it to get my name out there.  I was able to meet with homeowners and present them with literature and project histories. 

    Upshot is, I got a couple of small bath remodels, a basement finish, and three property management companies that still call me for certain types of work.  Downside is, I actually had to clean gutters, and some of those people are calling me back this year for the gutter cleaning.  It's not glorious, but at least I'm still self-employed.

    David

    1. Bowz | Sep 06, 2008 09:46pm | #32

      I did it to get my name out there.  I was able to meet with homeowners and present them with literature and project histories.

      I've done similar, not a real high percentage hit for any further work so far, but some has come in.

      Some other ideas to try:

      cutting off doors for flooring companies, floor repairs around toilets for plumbing contractors and flooring companies, if there is some sort of "Senior's Center" put an add in their newsletter for grab bars and handrails.  Maybe contact in-home health agencies for handrails and grab bars too. 

      One time the building inspector wanted to know if I was available. The building dept had put the kibosh on a non-prmitted project and the "contractor" took off. HO still needed some stuff handled. ( admittedly not the best situation, I was too busy anyway)

      I've also passed cards and literature on to a couple lawn maintanence companies while working on places as they cut the grass.

      Bowz

      1. Jim_Allen | Sep 06, 2008 09:58pm | #33

        I think an excellent area to focus on would be ADA and senior citizen renovations.

        1. Bowz | Sep 06, 2008 11:18pm | #35

          Jim,

          There are a few other reasons this can work. (I do some of the senior type stuff but not a lot)

          One reason is that the local carpenter who always handled their work is now retired or dead, and they are looking for someone else.

          I have done handrails and grab bars for people who submitted the bill as a claim on long term care insurance. Those insurance companies know what it would cost for nursing home care and re-imbursed the client for the modifications to keep them in their home. I've always wondered what an insurance company would say if you approached them for a mailing list of all long term care policy holders.

          For that generation, the man of the house always handled the house maintanence. Women live something like eight years more than men, and generally need someone to handle things.

          It is very frustrating at times though. For instance, I did an estimate for a bath remodel a few years back. When they saw the price they were shocked. They said the remodel would cost more than what it took to build their house.    They had built the house in the early 50s. LOL!    Plus, some of these retired people simply want someone to talk to.

          Bowz

    2. IdahoDon | Sep 07, 2008 03:05am | #38

      That's a great idea.  I definitely will benefit from getting some face-to-face time with the clients for whatever reason. 

      By far the best thing I could do is adopt a kid to have an excuse to hang out with the parents in my area!  *chuckle*

       

      Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.

      Edited 9/6/2008 8:34 pm ET by IdahoDon

    3. User avater
      Huck | Sep 07, 2008 08:56pm | #41

      A friend of mine used to make a lot of money hauling trash.  He'd do lot clearing and hauling.  So when things were really slow, I tried it.  My ad said "you call, I haul"  I actually made pretty good money - hard work, but its a quick $200 a day, vs. remodels measured in months. 

      ----------------

      edited to add: another thing that paid pretty well for quick cash flow was advertising as "wall and ceiling repair specialist".  Got a lot of calls from apartment owners, and homeowners who just had plumbing or hvac work done.  $50 - $200 for small repairs, depending on factors.  Gotta be good, and quick.  One of my ads said "open wall surgery? Call a patch-ologist!"

      Hot mud, had my own texture gun, carry a fan and a heat gun.  Patch, put the fan on while you get gallon of paint mixed to match, return, touch up patch, texture, heat gun dry, and paint corner to corner.  $200 bucks for a two hour job, in and out.  Some people got pi$$ed when they saw how fast it went...oh well.  I could share some tricks if anyone's interested.

      View Image â€œGood work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com

      Edited 9/7/2008 2:14 pm by Huck

  7. semar | Sep 06, 2008 07:44am | #31

    As one who went thru the 80s recession here in Canada I know exactly what you are going through.
    My lesson learned: do not wait and "sit it out". Get rid of all liabilities while it is still "affordable", not when the cash is all gone and they are knocking on your door. It is certainly noble to keep all the staff hanging around but when the crunch comes they will be the last to bail you out.
    In our recession the available inventory was so great you could not compete with all the foreclosure prices. It took years to get over the hump. In 84 framers were working for $0,45/sqft just to keep food on the table and even that gave them hardly any work. It was almost anarchy: People occupying empty houses only to be evicted by the sherrif. The moment the cops were around the corner they moved into another house. Families walking into foodstores and the kids grabbed cookies or bread, drank milk in the store. Manager came running,calling the police, they could not care the family needed something to eat. Of course the drive-off at the gas station lasted only a few weeks. Then the gas syphoning started. When the gas cap was locked they ripped out the gasline. Driving without insurance, you name it.
    I fed a white elephant and lost the showhome, holding properties, my own home.
    My opinion: better clear out now, you can always start again when things turn around; take any job no matter how small and how little it pays. Try working on a donation basis (labor only, customer provides materials), you will be surprised.

  8. hvtrimguy | Sep 07, 2008 04:54am | #39

    used to work for a contractor who did property maintenance. real easy stuff like cleaning gutters, delivering firewood, opening up the pool, closing the pool, getting the lawn furniture out and putting it away, minor repairs, etc. mostly for weekenders. I'm actually considering doing something along those lines myself. just a thought

    "it aint the work I mind,
    It's the feeling of falling further behind."

    Bozini Latini

    http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com

  9. Hudson Valley Carpenter | Sep 07, 2008 07:12pm | #40

    If I were your age and had any aptitude for languages I'd spend some time every day on the computer, learning to speak Spanish. 

    There are a lot of management opportunities now in construction for skilled Americans who speak enough Spanish to explain basic stuff and keep everyone moving.  And it seems like there will be more jobs of that kind available, as time goes on. 

    Instant Immersion Spanish Deluxe is one software program that I have used to improve on my long dead high school language skills.  It's very complete...many hours of useful sentence construction and pronunciation exercises.

    I worked in the mining business in Mexico for a few months, back in '67.  I went there with only a basic knowledge of Spanish and a very small vocabulary but that was enough to get started, leading a small group of men in doing simple tasks.   

    I was able to pick up the names of tools and a few more action verbs from a dictionary and from trial and error.  If I'd taken a good Spanish text book with me, I'd have learned a lot more. 

    I really enjoyed learning about the Mexican culture and the friendships I had with those hard working guys.  I'd be happy to  to work with a crew like them, any time.

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