My architect and I are in disagreement on a point. We’ve identified about 4 GC’s and I want to provide each of them with a detailed materials estimate that we have paid to have a guy generate from the architect’s plans. I wanted to have this estimate so that we could better estimate the cost of the house and also to trade off design choices vs. cost during the design phase. But I also want to be able to give this estimate to the bidding GC’s so as to make it “easier” for them when they are generating their bid, to increase my confidence that their bidding is based on sound numbers (less “guessing”), and to help increase the chances that I actually do get bids from each of the GC’s. The architect doesn’t think we should provide the materials estimate to the bidding GC’s because he thinks it will weaken our bargaining position and we’ll end up paying more since the bidding GC’s know what we “expect” to pay (well, for materials anyway). My argument is that the GC’s will still bid their best price because the implicit competition between the bidding GC’s is not going away just because we are giving each a materials estimate.
This is for new construction – a 1500 sq ft home.
What do you think? Would a detailed materials estimate be helpful to you as you start your work to generate a bid? How would the fact that this estimate was provided to you affect your bid? Have you ever had this done this way in the past?
Edited 4/6/2008 3:14 pm ET by gb62
Replies
Honestly, if the GC is bidding complete package, M+L, then no, I wouldn't use a list generated by you or your archy (no offense to either of you). It's one thing to use it to get a ballpark # to start out with; quite another for me to put a price on something that I have to live and/or die by based on what you supplied for me. If your architect forgot 100 sheets of 1/2" cdx in his supplied list, who eats the $2,300 cost difference after I start? And if I have to examine the list with a microscope, I might as well start from scratch.
I think its worth it to have a list to give to potential suppliers as the GC, because then it keeps everyone on an apples to apples basis......but if my price is based on this list, then either I do the take off, or my lumber guy does it, and he tends to hit em on the slightly high side.....
Bing
that is an excellent point about material take offs and mis-counting. Ive always handled it as a provided by others subject to change upon construction.
The architect hired an estimator to produce the materials estimate, and my understanding is that the estimator will be putting the information into a std format (I forget what) that GC's are used to using. The estimator has also been asked to include supplier contact info for each line item.
Is the architect trying to steer you into this course of action... paying for a materials list and then getting 4 bids? IMO it's a lousy idea. Having an estimator prepare a materials list for a 1500 SF house is very unusual. You're not building a skyscraper.
If you contacted me to "bid" and you asked me to use that list and told me there were three other bidders, I wouldn't entertain the possibility of building your house. You should identify good builders by reputation, interview them to find one that you click with, find out how they price their work, and hire them.
We are not asking the bidding GC's to use this materials list. Each bidding GC is responsible for their complete bid, labor and materials.
If you're going to the trouble of providing a materials list then you would have been smarter to ask each GC to use the cost shown as their material cost, and bid labor plus OH&P only. Since you're not doing that it's hard to see how you're getting anything out of giving them the list in the first place.
I agree Price is no way to choose who will get a job. I know it is done all the time but a lot of bad corner cutting is done out there because builders have to bring a job to completion based on a fixed bid that was low balled to get the job.Now the Architect should pick a trusted builder known for quality work at a fair price and just work with him. Most of the time when I have to bid on a job and the price is the only thing they are going to base who gets the job on I almost expect not to get the job. And frankly I don't want it if price is all they care about.I do not need a job that i might end up losing money on.Ops I did not read all posts before reply Now if the OP is the HO and selecting a GC personally I find references and actually visiting a job site he is building now much more helpful to selecting a trusted builder. How many houses has the guy built in your area? what Architects has he worked with? what do his references say about him. Call his subs ask if they would work with him again or if they had issues. Ask for his subs references. A Good bid means nothing if you can't trust the guy who submitted it. If the Guy does better then minimum code quality his bid will be higher but his house will be better. What do you want a well constructed house or a cheaply built house?
Edited 4/7/2008 12:33 am ET by MFournier
Thanks for your reply. GC interviews and site visits are planned. The sub references are a good idea that I hadn't thought of. Thanks.
If im reading into your Archi's position correctly, he would rather play the guessing game with several different contractors waisting a bunch of time and money for everyone involved. Alot of apples to oranges kind of stuff.
I hate playing the guessing game. I just met with a couple who wanted a ball park on an addition, no plans yet to be had.
Stated they were interviewing me and 2 other contractors and part of the interview was to see where the ball park estimates come in at from each contractor. What a joke, its anybodys guess. and the one that guesses the least wins, atleast for a while.
If i was you i would have a sit down with the prospective builders and find the one that suites you the most. Provide to this builder your list of materials and pay him for his time to help you with a proper labor budget for construction.
I myself love it when a client has put in alot of time picking out there materials and finishes. It shows to me they are indeed serious about having there project completed, and are fully aware of how much these materials and finishes cost.
It sounds like you want to provide materials, and get a labor only bid?
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
No. Bid on the whole house. M+L. The materials estimate is intended only as an assist to the GC in generating their bid. They can ignore it or use it as they see fit. They are responsible for the accuracy of their bid, both materials and labor.
The materials estimate is intended only as an assist to the GC in generating their bid.
How the hellz it going to help if you don't give it to them?
This is stupid, and you are in for an unpleasant experience with this Archy.
Might be time to do your own research for a GC.
Joe H
Although I would tend to agree give it to them, where it helps if he doesn't give it to the GC is when he is checking the bids to see if the GC either left off a bunch of material, or added a bunch of unnecessary material.
Still doesn't help him unless he knows who is right or wrong.
We don't know if the list was prepared by someone competent to build a house. Working from the Archy plans that don't show how to do what is drawn can leave a whole lot to the builder to figure out.
How much it takes to complete those imaginary details like beams with no support ect. can make a big difference in the materials list.
That is assuming whoever did the take off knew what he was looking at.
Joe H
<< Bid on the whole house. M+L. The materials estimate is intended only as an assist to the GC in generating their bid. They can ignore it or use it as they see fit. They are responsible for the accuracy of their bid, both materials and labor.>>
Seems that since you have paid for this MTO providing it with the plans will assist in receiving accurate estimates and lead to a more cooperative experience with the builder you select.
Anything that will ead to more accurate estmates is helpful and should be included in the documents with a strong disclaimer in this situation that this is provided as a coonvenience in the spirit of producing a positive outcome for the building project.
M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
That is indeed my very intention. Thanks for your feedback and suggestion!
Good luck with your project.
I've worked with some great homeowners and some not-so-great over the years and the ones who are open to a cooperative, respectful, "same team" kind of process uniformly get better quality work and better value in the end.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Well said.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Interesting.
If you plan on supplying all materials, look out. You will somehow get your just deserts in the end.
When the right material is not there, the contractor will charge you for their time while awaiting the new materials. (rightfully so, also cause they dont own that part of the job)
If you are going to open a supply account and let the contractor manage materials, might just give him your piggy bank. Even family members steal from each other when the opportunity presents itself. (they might justify it a little but it is still stealing)
I'd use the material takeoff to develop my scope of materials list and add to that for any materials that are missing and give that to the GC's so that they are bidding apples to apples.
Ie.
Fdn. 3500 psi air entrained poured concrete 8"x8' on 8x20 footing
Framing Dimensional Douglas Fir joists per plan (or 11 7/8" I joists per plan) 3/4" xyz sheathing on 1st and 2nd floor decks. Exterior sheathing to be hammer donkey snot secured with pasties, etc.
You get the idea. You want the monkey on the GC's back (the monkey of responsibility) to perform the job turn key for you successfully. If you try to own part of the job, it will potentially get all screwed up. You loosing.
Once you have developed a good scope for bidding, take the material takeoff and file it. I hope you did not pay much for it though. Paying for a good template scope of work might have been worth the money but not a material takeoff for a 1500 sf home.
The smallest job I ever paid for was a 2M commercial building and I was GC. Once we did it on a residential job where we were building the homes repedetively however I ended up re-doing the whole thing cause the one my boss (company owner) paid for wasnt worth a sh*t.
Thats one of the reasons my last name and the company name are the same now.
By the way, update your profile so we know where you hang your hat.
No, I (the HO) am not supplying materials. That's the GC's job.You make an interesting distinction between "template scope of work" and "material takeoff". We have paid a few hundred for a "material takeoff".
sure, I'll use your material take-off list.just sign this little agreement that you will pay for overages and omissions.Is the sheet just specing quantities or brands as well?
Barry E-Remodeler
Hi GB
I hate to say it, but I would not have paid for a material takeoff.
You want turn key. I dont see how the detail material takeoff will help in the bid process. (at least not in the delaware valley, philly area)
Your area might be different but I can tell you that the takeoff would not likely help in New Jersey, Raleigh NC, or eastern PA from what I know. (the 3 places I worked in the residential industry)
If the market is dead, you can run it any way you want and the contractors will likely fall into place but I'd rather neg. the total package than to break it down into the details unless I intrinsically understand all the details. (How do you negotiate what you dont understand?) I have had people try to negotiate when they did not know what they were talking about and they never win.
Yep GB
I am clear you are the HO. The key is to figure out what you want and provide a scope so that all the bidders actually bid to the same scope.
One will include a framed shower door, one will exclude shower door, and the other who knows. (unless the plans are incredibly detailed and call out for "brushed nickel framed shower door with clear glass with panel" or whatever you are going to want.
What you need to do is go down the list trade by trade and determine what the scope for the job is and how much you care on each area is how much effort you put into that scope. I, as a builder, have broad scopes and detailed scopes depending on the project so that I can call out as specifically as is reasonable each facet of the job so the client knows what they are getting. Your problem as a homeowner is to take 3 different GC's bids and figure out how much cost difference there is between the kohler faucets, toilets, and fixtures that one GC bid and the American standard toilets, hampton bay faucets and fixtures the other guy bid. (Huge price swing here)
If you have a clear scope for the job, you can then get as close to apples apples bids.
A material takeoff doesnt give you an apples- apples scope.
You're listening to an architect!!!!???
Ok, I'm an architect myself so just funin' ya.
By the term "GC", I'm assuming you are getting one guy to build the whole house. If that's the case, unless he's a big guy, he's going to sub out the concrete, electrical, plumbing, HVAC, flooring, etc. stuff anyway. He's even likely not going to know what the HVAC guy, for example, paid for the airhandler. Only a few of the trades traditionally work on a "labor only" mode. Carpentry is one.
I'd pass on the estimate. One reason is the off chance it's wrong. If I were a GC a fair concern would be "Gee, if they say I need 452 2X4's and it truns out I need 600 it might come back to bite me".
FWIW, I'm building my third house being the GC, and while I've just subbed out the stuff mentioned above, I've gone the "labor only" route on flooring, siding and ext. trim, drywall, roof, exterior decks and of course rough and finish carpentry. Saved a bundle. Of course a little more work for me estimating material but it's worked out great.
Runnerguy.
I've paid someone to do a takeoff once, but much prefer to do them myself. Even the lumber yard guys aren't as good about knowing how I will build a house as I am. Regarding the paid estimate, the guy was dead nuts with regard to the price of the project. The actual lumber, etc, was a different story. For example, I called him up and said "What the heck is this board-ft stuff? I haven't used that since I was in school!" Give me a break.
Anyway, in your situation, it would seem that it would help you to get apples to apples bids, but OTOH, if the project goes over by 10 2x4s, you can bet it will be someone else's fault (and expense) other than the GC's. One of the reasons you hire a GC is to make sure that materials are used efficiently. Seems like some of that could be curtailed, since it potentially won't be his money that is being wasted. Job site theft - your problem. Or maybe you are hiring a GC on a T&M basis? Most people don't.
While you see yourself as being helpful, a builder may see you as potentially meddlesome and controlling. You have plans, let the builders bid them.
ymmv
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
As a GC bidding on your job I would take your material take off and Thank You for it.
I would use it along side my own as a check list, might help me spot any major goofs on my part.
The yard that made the list may not be happy though as having it out there as that leaves them open to having their prices shopped.(Unless it is just a list of materials and no prices)
Where I am I would guess that 90 % of the material lists for homes are generated out of lumberyard contractors desks or by people the yards hire. I know damn few contractors who estimate their own jobs anymore.
Giving it out won't guarantee anything, but I for one would sure look at it and be happy to have it.
Offer it and see what they say. They aren't being obligated to use it.
Lot of interesting points of view here on this topic.
Heres mine.
I'd be willing to bid your material list and plans. In my bid, I'd have the disclaimer that the bid was based solely on your material list and I'd make no promise to be able to build your house. Anything extra needed would be charged as an extra.
Incidently, most experienced GC should be able to give you a ball park price on that 1500 in their initial interview. They wouldn't need your material list if they have any experience at all in the business.
I'll do it for $195k (see the fine print for details)
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07