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Discussion Forum

Materials for house skirt/drainage tile?

| Posted in General Discussion on September 5, 2001 05:38am

*
Over the past 2 years we’ve been preparing the basement for finishing it off. The main aspect of this has been to stop water from coming in (the previous owners, for some inexplainable reason had the yard sloping TOWARDS the foundation, and, of course, water problems because of that).

We spent last summer re-grading the yard and running gutters out further and we’ve reduced to the water infiltration to 3 minor spots. One is along the basement fireplace. The sidewalk outside was poured directly against the chimney and without control joints. The ground settled, the chimney did not, so the sidewalk is fractured and allowing water to trickle in. We are in the process of tearing up the sidewalk and repouring it (with appropriate slope, control joints, and caulking).

The other two spots are at the two corners of the house. One, on the south side, gets most of the gutter run-off from one side of the house. The one on the back side (north) never sees the sun, so during long periods of rain, the ground becomes saturated.

I’m planning on fixing these two spots by skirting the house with rock and drainage tiles, which will run down the front hill towards street level–which is below the basement floor level. This should prevent the ground from becoming saturated along the house, and also extending the gutter run-off by about 15 feet.

The skirt will go around half of the house from the rear, around the east side, and around part of the front. It will be 4-6 feet out from the side of the house. At the front of the house, they will connect with the gutters, and I will run a large ‘pipe’ underground down the hill in front to connect with the future drainage tile and drain system behind the retaining wall. (I’m still debating if I should run the drain out onto the sidewalk, as everyone else in the neighborhood does, or try to do the ‘green’ thing and actually install a dry-well when I re-do the retaining wall next summer).

Anyways, my questions:

1) I was told that instead of using plastic as a base for the skirt, that I should use industrial (commercial?) neoprene fabric. Bolt one side to the house foundation, and cover with rock. The problem is that every landscaping place I go to, they have never heard of such a material (they all recommend plastic). Is this a real thing? Anyone know where to find it?

2) Drainage tile. Any thoughts? It appears the two main materials are perforated PVC (the white stuff) and the corrugated black stuff. I’m thinking the PVC would be better, as there is no courrugation to collect sediment (keeping it cleaner). Alternatively, is there a suitable surface-drainage solution (something like the curb along the road, or maybe a half-pipe drain acting like a gutter). It would seem to me that a surface-type drainage system would be easier to maintain and monitor for effectiveness.

3) The last issue of FHM mentioned that cleanouts should be installed along the drainage tile behind the retaining wall. Cleanouts make sense, but how would they actually work in an underground system such as this? It appeared that the cleanout was a full 4-feet of pipe with a t-connection to the drainage pipe…it would seem to me that that wouldn’t make an ideal cleanout.

Thanks!

-Darrel

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  1. oclat_ | Aug 26, 2001 12:58am | #1

    *
    Darrell,

    I am in the same boat as you. I built a fine french style home and the landscape architect was brought in after the house was positioned on the site. We should have brought him in before. My builder( who is very talented and should have be an architect) positioned the house in the right place. The problem was that our lot is low and we had an engineer set the elevation of our circular driveway, again after the house was going up. The height of this forced us to add topsoil to the lot thus eliminating our ability to get enough slope(for drainage) away from the house. Any more fill would cover the foundation vents. The house doesn't have gutters due to the style. I have noticed problem with wet foundation block under the house. I believe that the hydrostatic pressure and/or the clay type soil has contributed to this problem. have installed plastic under the house, but have a problem at one end of the house. This soil does not drain well. This low area in our neighborhood probably collected silty soil for 1000's of years before this place was developed. I also believe that due to this soil holding water/moisture longer than a better draining soil, it gradually finds its way under the house. My foundation block was coated initially with DryLoc. I am considering installing a french drain as described in last month's Fine Homebuilding. How much slope do I need to have? an 1/8" per foot and where should the drain be positioned? on the top of the footing or just outside it? The roof's drip line is about 16" away from the side of the house. We have an storm drain linee that was recently installed near the lot line( between my house and the my neighbors) after Hurricane Floyd wrecked havoc around here. it takes the water away from the neighborhood. I have also thought about cutting a say, a 2 foot plastic pipe down the middle, fill it with rock, and put it where the drip line is, add a little slope in the horizontly laid half pipe and take it to the stormdrain line.e. This way all the water coming off the roof ( mansard, steep slope) would not go into the ground around the foundation. Should I do one or both of these projects to eliminate the problem?

    Thanks,

    Steve

    1. darrel1 | Aug 27, 2001 03:51am | #2

      *oclat:Of course, I really can't answer any of your questions (as I have the same ones) but I will say that I was thinking the same thing regarding the half-pipe idea. It just seems a lot easier to maintain (plus, I don't have to dig as deep!). As far as dryloc, everything I've read suggests that is isn't a solution to water problems. The material only has a guarantee of 5 years I believe. The previous owners tried dryloc in our basement, but, as they never fixed the actual water problem, it has all flaked off and bubbled out along the bottom 2-feet of our basement wall and, apparently, you can only apply the stuff once for it to be effective (unless you clean the entire wall down to the original concrete block.-Darrel

      1. Mike_Smith | Aug 27, 2001 04:08am | #3

        *gravity drains are the best solution...(drain to daylight).. 2d best is sumps with backup pumps..oclat.... the engineer and the GC.. combined to screw up your site... shame on them....drainage should be a primary concern in ANY site plan.. and it is not an afterthought... the driveway and the foundation elevation have to work together ... not seperately....duh...last guy in gets the blame ?...i don't think so..b but hey, whadda i no ?

        1. calvin_ | Aug 27, 2001 12:22pm | #4

          *oclat, if you go that route, I would put the drain tile next to the footing. If you put it on top of the footing, you concentrate the water at the wall/footing joint. Use filter fabric on top and backfill with clean stone all the way up.

          1. Lance_Moody | Aug 27, 2001 03:32pm | #5

            *Oclat-When infinite pitch away from the foundation is not possible, a surface and sub-grade swale/ drainage system can be built. The low point of the swale can be 4 to 10 or 12 ft. from the foundation or some distance dictated by existing or anticipated features.In the most radical instance (and all this has been covered before ad nauseum) one would excavate to the base of the footer and from that point out away from it to the low point of the swale. The newly exposed base of the entire swale would then be compacted to an extent to be determined in the system design. This base will be pitched at approx. 1/4"/ft. sloping to the swale's low point. This trench will now be lined with filter fabric allowing for overlaps that will eventually encapsulate the entire backfill. Pitched, perforated pipe is then placed at the low point of the swale. This pipe can be wrapped in an additional layer of filter fabric; pre-made, cylindrical socks are available. Screened and graded drainage rock will then be used to backfill the trench. The drainage rock will run to finished grade at the low point of the swale and for some small distance laterally either side that point. From that point on the house side, continuing back to the wall, the drainage rock will capped (outside the fabric envelope) with a combination of gravel and fines that will take a high degree of compaction. This surface should be pitched approx. 1/4"/ft. toward the lowpoint of the swale. This material is then covered with several inches of clay, forming an impermeable cap. This too is pitched and can be covered with a shallow layer of something pleasing, including a thin layer of topsoil and shallowly rooted, xeric plants that will need no or little supplementary water. The system of perf. pipe is then lead out to daylight, a drywell, manufactured wetland, deep cistern, lift station connected to a cattle tank, or subsurface drip irrigation system, or etc. The likely reason you didn't get something like this is that drainage isn't glorious in the design phase... but that changes. Careful, sympathetic help on this type of issue is available but it's often far too expensive to be employed in all but the most severe instances where loss of property value cannot be concealed or overlooked.

          2. darrel1 | Aug 28, 2001 05:31pm | #6

            *Going back to my original question...is there such a thing as industrial neoprene fabric and, if so, is that the best material for surface skirting?Thanks.-Darrel

          3. Frenchy_Dampier | Aug 29, 2001 07:24am | #7

            *Darrel' I think you're asking the wrong question. I take it that you want the fabric to act like a big rain coat around the base of the house. I hope you understand how hopeless that will be. Sooner or later it will fail and most likely sooner. Trees, plants, frost heaves, certain rodents maybe equipment, something will cause it to fail!! When you can't build in the proper slope because of other constraints, consider other options that will work. Can you connect the drainage to the sewer? or will it overwhelm it? The other option I've seen is dry wells. Where you dig a big hole fill it with rock and dumpthe drainage into it. (that's going to be my solution to a similar problem) I intend to add a small well pump to the bottom and use the run-off to water the lawn!!!

          4. darrel1 | Aug 29, 2001 08:29am | #8

            *Frenchy:Yes, I'd like to skirt one side of my house with about 4' of a waterproof membrane. The ground is properly sloped, but the back-corner of the house doesn't have a whole lot of area to drain to, so I'd like to try and keep that 4' near the foundation as dry as possible.I agree that plastic fails...that's why I was told to use industrial neoprene...I'm just having trouble finding it.My water problem is minor...mainly at the back corner, where after several days of rain, it just becomes overly saturated and the bottom of the basement wall in the corner becomes damp.I need to get that water out to the front of the house, where I can run it down hill to the front sidewalk (which is at the bottom of a hill and actually a few feet below our basment floor).I'll take some measurements tomorrow and post a sketch.

          5. Lance_Moody | Aug 29, 2001 03:15pm | #9

            *Darrell-Use 40 mil pond liner.L

          6. darrel1 | Aug 30, 2001 04:09am | #10

            *Lance:Thanks for the tip.I'm attaching a drawing that will hopefull explain things a bit better for everyone. As you can see, our house sits on a hill. I think the remaining water problem is merely a surface issue, as it only happens when the ground near the house is completely saturated.

          7. darrel1 | Sep 05, 2001 05:38pm | #11

            *Just a quick follow up questions...has anyone had experience with a surface draining product such as this?:http://www.abtdrains.com/polyself.html-Darrel

  2. darrel1 | Sep 05, 2001 05:38pm | #12

    *
    Over the past 2 years we've been preparing the basement for finishing it off. The main aspect of this has been to stop water from coming in (the previous owners, for some inexplainable reason had the yard sloping TOWARDS the foundation, and, of course, water problems because of that).

    We spent last summer re-grading the yard and running gutters out further and we've reduced to the water infiltration to 3 minor spots. One is along the basement fireplace. The sidewalk outside was poured directly against the chimney and without control joints. The ground settled, the chimney did not, so the sidewalk is fractured and allowing water to trickle in. We are in the process of tearing up the sidewalk and repouring it (with appropriate slope, control joints, and caulking).

    The other two spots are at the two corners of the house. One, on the south side, gets most of the gutter run-off from one side of the house. The one on the back side (north) never sees the sun, so during long periods of rain, the ground becomes saturated.

    I'm planning on fixing these two spots by skirting the house with rock and drainage tiles, which will run down the front hill towards street level--which is below the basement floor level. This should prevent the ground from becoming saturated along the house, and also extending the gutter run-off by about 15 feet.

    The skirt will go around half of the house from the rear, around the east side, and around part of the front. It will be 4-6 feet out from the side of the house. At the front of the house, they will connect with the gutters, and I will run a large 'pipe' underground down the hill in front to connect with the future drainage tile and drain system behind the retaining wall. (I'm still debating if I should run the drain out onto the sidewalk, as everyone else in the neighborhood does, or try to do the 'green' thing and actually install a dry-well when I re-do the retaining wall next summer).

    Anyways, my questions:

    1) I was told that instead of using plastic as a base for the skirt, that I should use industrial (commercial?) neoprene fabric. Bolt one side to the house foundation, and cover with rock. The problem is that every landscaping place I go to, they have never heard of such a material (they all recommend plastic). Is this a real thing? Anyone know where to find it?

    2) Drainage tile. Any thoughts? It appears the two main materials are perforated PVC (the white stuff) and the corrugated black stuff. I'm thinking the PVC would be better, as there is no courrugation to collect sediment (keeping it cleaner). Alternatively, is there a suitable surface-drainage solution (something like the curb along the road, or maybe a half-pipe drain acting like a gutter). It would seem to me that a surface-type drainage system would be easier to maintain and monitor for effectiveness.

    3) The last issue of FHM mentioned that cleanouts should be installed along the drainage tile behind the retaining wall. Cleanouts make sense, but how would they actually work in an underground system such as this? It appeared that the cleanout was a full 4-feet of pipe with a t-connection to the drainage pipe...it would seem to me that that wouldn't make an ideal cleanout.

    Thanks!

    -Darrel

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