Friend recently purchased a new (just constructed) home in SE Ontario, Canada. Hired a building inspector to provide a report.
House has poured concretion basement walls; unusually, at least for me, the walls are about 9-1/2 feet high (for me, 8 feet is more likely). Basement is unfinished.
According to the inspector the steel columns (total of 2) that support the main basement “H” steel beam are not plumb; instead, they are off by about 20%. No “number of degrees” was specified. Again, according to the inspector the acceptable limit is 0-10%. Don’t know if this is part of actual building code or “best practice”.
When questioned the builder says:”Well, the house isn’t falling down.”
Any thoughts on whether correction action required? Is this a building code violation? Long-term consequences of not repairing?
Replies
about 20% . Well that's a definitive number. Let's see ... 9.5 ft high x 20% = 23" out of plumb. I would say that's significant and needs to be corrected.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Have you looked at them? Has your friend looked at them? Something just doesn't make sense. 20%???? I wouldn't measure something out of plumb that way.
Do you have a picture of them?
I agree with popawheelie -- expressing an out-of-plumb post in terms of percentage error makes no sense as a building specification. See if your friend can't get some pictures and some sort of quantitative description about how far they are off.
Something is not right in that description. The post would have fallen out if it were 20% unless welded to the beam or something.
but it is an easy fix to straighten them plube or to replace them.
Unless the beam has excessive deflection. THAT is the item the inspector should be focusing on.
Does the inspector have any experience is my question.
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After my last post I had a thought Paul.
What if the post was out 20% of 90 degrees?
18 deg. out of plumb? So the post is set at a 72 degree angle to horizontal.
Still alot but maybe not as much as someone else had suggested. I'm not sure and I'm cooking dinner.
Maybe you or someone else would care to express that in inches to the height described.
Ericyourcontractor@aol.com
I think that the inspector mis-wrote it. I believe that it is 2% out, which would be about 2 1/4" out. Sounds about right? Just my guess.
Edited 9/19/2007 8:08 pm ET by McMarky
From my conversation I am inclined to go with your description of using degrees. Still, sounds like a lot.Will try to get pictures but may take awhile.
Percentage is certainly a valid way of measuring angles. Commonly used for designating slopes off horiontal for grading, driveways, and roads.Never heard it used for defining off plumb..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Exactly so; surveyors use percent for grades all the time. No professional uses percent when referring to plumb.
> No professional uses percent when referring to plumb.And if no professional does this, that makes the entire inspection suspect.George Patterson
>Something is not right in that description. The post would have fallen out if it were 20% unless welded to the beam or something.Not necessarily. <g> In fact, I have a picture of a post out of plumb by that much. No kidding. I see this every time I take DD to the gym, so I took the picture today just for this thread. In all my years, never have seen another like it.
Yeah, it looks crazy and that would be about 20%, but it is clear that these were planned that way from the location of the bases, as far as I can tell, and cut with angle at top and surely fastened with hardware of some sort, even if just Piffin screws.So I'll hold to my theory that they have to be welded to the beamto hold them up!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Mighta had the building inspector scratching his head. And when they sell, it'll probably require a note on the inspection report.
> I see this every time I take DD to the gym, .....
Damn -- it looks like that crew from Pisa again.... ;-)
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-- J.S.
Usually we might say that a (vertical) is out of plumb 1/2" on 4ft. as an example.
This would be discerned using a 4 ft level.
yourcontractor@aol.com
I've never heard of anybody using percentages or degrees in talking about stuff being out of level or plumb. The usual way to state it is x-many inches overall, or x-many inches per foot.
So, get about 10 ft. of string and some sort of weight. Tie the weight to the bottom of the string, and hook the top up to the beam near the column, on the side it's leaning towards, with the weight just barely above the floor. Let the string hang there until it stops swinging. Then measure the distances to the column top and bottom. Subtract, and report the answer back here.
-- J.S.
Dunc
It sounds like you are talking about just the steel beam being out of plumb and not the 9 1/2' wall.
If for instance you hade a 10" high steel beam and you were out 20% (which as everybody else said, not a typical way to call out this type of measurment) it would be 2" out and I dont know how anybody could possibly get a beam that far out and not notice it.
I think Piffin mentioned it, I dont know that the beam would stand up being that far out, not real sure but I think even with my bad eye I could hit it better then 2" off.
When questioned the builder says:"Well, the house isn't falling down."
A builder that makes a comment like this is probably not much of a builder, especially if he got the beam that far out of wack!
Doug
Without having some idea of what the 'inspector' meant, it's hard to say.
To claim that the steel columns are '20% out of plumb' has various possible meanings, none of which make much sense. Plumb is not measured in percentages. It's either in degrees, or in inches per length.
My response would be to go there in person with a level, try to figure out what the inspector meant, and then make a note to never hire them again. Did he give a voltage reading on the hot water? I would be very interested in what qualifications this inspector has - hey, where's RJW when you need him, anyway?
But, plumbers deal with %, and if the inspector came into the biz thru plumbing, then....
Also, people who are good with math may be inclined to state that the column is X% out of plumb, especially if they have a background in surveying.
While it is different, I don't think that it is especially odd.
But there is no way anything is 20% out.
20% could mean 2 1/2" in 8', but that would mean the BI would accept 1 1/4" in 8'.SamT
20% could mean 2 1/2" in 8', but that would mean the BI would accept 1 1/4" in 8'.
You're wrong by a factor of ten. 2% of 8' is 1.92". 20% of 8' is 19"
Also, I do not think that the inspector is a Building Official. I believe that it is a home inspector.
Edited 9/20/2007 10:37 am ET by McMarky
DOH!You're right. Obvious after a little more sleep. I figgered 8' = 100 1/8ths instead of 100". Round numbers. DOH! DOH!My excuse is that I had just got back home from picking up the *Teenager* after she called "help" at 3 am.That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.SamT
Edited 9/20/2007 11:02 am by SamT
20% of 8 feet is black diamonds on your tape measure!
Dunc,
How about asking your friend to hang the string with the weight from the beam, measure the offset with a ruler laying on the floor, and take a digipic of the result and e-mail it to you? It is a small effort for all the valuable brain trust he is accessing through you, his friend.
Some pics up close at both top and bottom of the posts would be good, too.
Bill
Not one person answered the posters question? I can't, but was looking for the answer to their question. Anyone know what the tolerances are, and or if this is an actual defect in a code book somewhere?