Instead of us working ourselves into the ground, we should charge more. To bad it’s not that easy, maybe if the gov’t was to regulate trade work the way they regulate dr’s we could breath a little easier. I’m a framer, the past 15 years I have destroyed my body on a daily basis to earn a decent living. I will trudge around in the mud in the spring, my boots sometimes weighing 40lb each. I stand on the top of a 20′ wall in the middle of January in -20. I carry more tools to work than any other trade, my set up every day takes longer. My job is to make sure that every one else’s goes smoother. I make sure that there is a home for someone for generations to come. But this industry has become so cut throat, we have to run to make money. I am personally really starting to lose heart here. In Canada we are supposedly short trades, we are short ‘good trades’ I would say anyways. If this is the case for me and many others I know, how will we get any young promising workers in this field, who will come after us seeing the way we struggle? I wouldn’t want my kid to do this under these circumstances. Does anyone know what I’m talking about?
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How come everyone's job is always so much harder than an others?
Are you an Obgyn, If so your job is the hardest. I also think you need to make more money.
I dunno his handle is "H" untdoctor...wouldn't that be a different letter?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Just sitting here shaking my head. :)Can't believe I never thought of that.I feel more like a proctologist, always seem to be dealing with a** holes.
I thought I had all the azzholes up here. Funny, you've got'em to you say.
and wimmin are the luckiest... they got 2 !
the one they're born with
and the one they marryMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
thats because you live in Hogtown LOL.
Government regulation is a good thing in spite of what some would claim.. The weakness with the building trade is just about anybody can put on a tool belt and call themselves a contractor..There is no real standard of performance and in the 17 1/2 years I spent selling equipment to contractors I never once met one who said he did average or below average work..
Yet common sense would tell you that they can't all be the best or above average..
I do "professional quality" work. :)I have been an advocate for regulatory licensing for years. I believe you should be required to go to college and earn a degree, have a short internship period, then be given a lengthy exam followed by yearly continuing education in order to be a carpenter. This how many professional careers work and is essential if we ever want to have more control of labor pricing. Right now, all we have are unions which IMHO just lead to higher costs for less quality. By switching to a degree=license system the "quality" of a carpenter could be determined by the nomenclature of "licensed carpenter", "journeyman carpenter", and "master carpenter"....maybe even "doctor in the art and science of carpentry".DC
"doctor inthe art and science of carpentry"
Wonderful title!!!!!!
Right now, all we have are unions which IMHO just lead to higher costs for less quality.
I have seen plenty out of square, plumb and level built non-union.
i totally agree with the comment on union vs non-union skill. I worked 8 years non union before i finnaly got into the union here in nj. I have met some of the most skilled carpenters i know in the union and these men stick together and take care of each other. now maybe unions in other parts of the country are weak, but here they are strong and most of the time the carpenters bitching about unions are the ones who cant get it or passed it up and regret it. also are rates with benefit package are over 60 dollars an hour and i have never worked less than 10 months
Except that it has been declared unconstitutional to license for regulation carpenters who work in the capacity of mechanics. The term mechanics as used in mechanics' lien laws applies to carpenters, plumbers, painters and all other construction trades. To understand why carpenters who work as mechanics in the United States cannot be licensed for regulatory purposes is explained in the case of Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534.
What are you, some kind of lawyer?!!?!I only like lawyers when they are payin' me to work on their house.
Still they always want to argue out the bill........ ;-)You say: "Except that it has been declared unconstitutional to license for regulation carpenters who work in the capacity of mechanics."As far as I know, most states do require "contractors" to be licensed but that may just be saying there is a distinction between a "carpenter=person who builds" and a "contractor=person who signs contracts to build", just a guess.I looked up that case:Act licensing and regulating paper hangers not a "local" law. - Acts 1935, ch. 335, licensing and regulating paper hangers in Baltimore City, is not a "local" law within meaning of this article. Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534 (1936)....Paper hangers can't be licensed.Are they calling a paper hanger a carpenter? If so, I think it could easily be argued that much has changed in the field of carpentry has changed drastically since 1936 and since it has become so much more complex and because lawsuits (usually favoring the occupants) have become so common, and since the field of architecture has become so distanced from the actual act of building, it is now more necessary than ever to mandate professional practice and regulation of carpenters.If you were having a house built or added on to, would you rather hire a Master Carpenter whom you are assured has a graduate level education, has put in time under a mentor, and has been tested on paper and had his work scrutinized all before he is given a license and allowed to hang a shingle.........or would you like to go with that non-"licensed" character who dropped out of highschool and got himself a job on a production framing crew where he banged out the same floor plan everyday for the past two years before deciding that he should be his own boss so he gets himself a saw and hammer, sends his ol'lady to take the licensing exam "cuz shez s'marter then hem". She squeaks by, gets a license, now he's a contractor and he's in your house bidding on a $200K addition you've been dreaming about for over a decade. He WAS the cheapest bidder.You decide which is better for you (the homeowner) and the building industry.DC
My guess is that you did not read the case. While the case itself involved the licensing of journeyman paper hangers and paper hanging contractors, the court stated that a number of occupations are outside the scope of the police power and therefore cannot be licensed for regulation. Included in that list are carpenters, painters, bricklayers, plasterers and others.Now, wrap your head around this. Suppose a property owner hires a carpenter to hang some doors, install some cabinets, and install crown molding. The two parties enter into a contract whereby the carpenter will perform the labor for $3000.00. One party to the contract is known as the contractor. The other party is known as the mechanic and under the state mechanics' lien laws will have lien rights if he is not paid for his labor. Which party is the mechanic who performs the labor? Which party is the carpentry contractor? Now, if your state requires carpentry contractors to be licensed, who do you think needs a license? Hint. It is not the carpenter who hangs the doors, installs the cabinets, and installs the crown molding.Returning to the case of Dasch v. Jackson, journeyman paper hangers (mechanics) were required to be licensed and paper hanging contractors were required to be licensed. The statute provided that a homeowner who lived in the house could act as a journeyman and paper the house himself without a journeyman's license or act as paper hanging contractor without a contractor's license.I, myself, would like to see regulatory licensing. Perhaps that would be a start to curbing the illegal immigrant problem. Licensing has always been used as a way to exclude others from following certain occupations. I would like to see a university degree be mandatory. I know then that I would be eligible for a license. Would all the other posters then be eligible? Should they not be allowed to be carpenters? Second, as has been said by courts of authority, if a test is required then it should be so difficult that very few can pass. Otherwise it is useless as a regulatory measure. So for carpenters, geometry and trigonometry should be a part of any test as they are necessary for complex roof framing and for many layout problems. After eliminating those who are not university graduates and those who cannot pass simple mathematics (geometry and trigonometry), we could reduce the number of carpenters. And, obviously, we could not let those who went to college in Mexico or Trinidad or some other countries to count as meeting the degree requirement.By the way, carpentry has not become more complex. It has become easier. Before stud walls and mass produced nails, timber framing was the norm. In addition, carpenters built doors and windows on site as well as other millwork.
Edited 2/9/2009 1:22 pm ET by 5150
"After eliminating those who are not university graduates and those who cannot pass simple mathematics (geometry and trigonometry), we could reduce the number of carpenters."
That's a great idea. In fact, let's make an engineering degree a requirement for someone to nail a piece of baseboard on a wall.
Your "solutions" have only two outcomes. One is that the regulation isn't as stringent as needed, and the black market economy grows in leaps and bounds. The other outcome is that the price of labor goes up so significantly that no one can afford to have the same amount of work done.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Are they letting them use computers again? Or are the inmates out of the asylum.
5150,I was not able to read the actual court hearing, I could only find references (not that it is within me to understand the verbiage of a court mandate anyway).Contractor or carpenter, most carpenters that I know are contractors anyway and are 1099'ed as DBA businesses. But in my idea regulatory way, this would not be an issue. If you read what I wrote to JohnB. I feel like carpenters shouldn't just have "a degree" they should have a specifically accredited degree such as a six year "Master of Carpentry" degree in order to work (or at least to claim lien on a construct). Prior to being licensed, a MofC recipient would be allowed to perform carpentry tasks but only under the observation of a licensed MofC, who would be the actual contractor with the homeowner. I suppose in the manner of your speaking, the "mechanic" would then be those carpenters who work for the Licensed MofC but are not yet licensed or are not licensed or fully though graduate school yet (architecture allows internship before receipt of a degree, which seems fair and is very helpful to the student).Older fellows already licensed could be gradfathered in; and YES my idea would raise the price of construction dramatically.......but wouldn't that also raise the value of structures already built? If so, I feel that is a good thing.You are probably not a carpenter if you believe building has gotten easier. You are correct that very old buildings were timberframed (very old) but you would be mistaken if you believed they were build well by modern standards of construction - let alone modern codes. Today's buildings, when built properly, are built tight, safe, and efficient. Many old timberframes are gone for good reason and many are still standing with leans and sags. As a remodeler specializing in very old homes, I get a first hand account of the atrocities of pre 1900's building using farmers and immigrants instead of true skilled laborers. IMO, we don't build them like we used to, we build them much, much better.I believe we could do better yet if regulation laws were implemented.DCP.S. try looking into the requirements of becoming a certified architect to understand me better.
you and 5150 deserve each other...Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Frenchy- Where I lived you were required to be licensed and insured. I filled out the paper work then asked the girl when the test is. She looked at me and said that no test was required, just 350$ fee, you did not have to speek english either. Last time I looked plans and specs were in english.
Well since a sizeable number of people in the construction trades may not be English speakers I can understand your concern.. However the Illegals currantly working in my neighborhood came to America via Russian fishing trawler pulling into one of those thousands of ports with no immigration facilities stepped ashore and were quickly wisked away.
They use their cousins drivers license who is the one who probably met them in that port and because they look like you or I get away with it.. they're invisable!
My point is that They've been building homes now for over a decade and can work a lot cheaper than legal Americans because they are off the radar..
Our immagration policy stinks and it's not going to be corrected untill we really want it to be corrected.. Right now those illegals are holding down wages and business likes that..
i dislike immigrants, legal or illegal.but i'm native, so i can.DC~I:-)
Illegals? OMG!
Let's build the Berlin Wall!
If you work in an industry where an "illegal" can take your job then you're in the wrong industry. Get an education!
OB
White color gigs just outsource *TO* those folks outside the border.Labor of all colors goes to the lowest bidder. That's business.
Edited 2/10/2009 10:47 pm ET by darrel
If you had the option of going to a 'cheap' doctor for treatment, would you, or do you appreciate that you can go to any dr. and expect a that they know what they are doing?
I hope i put this correct. Where i lived you had to be licensed and insured and in one county bonded as well. If the inspector came by and saw you did not conform to these requirements he shut the job down. This is not the same all over, here in saratoga county no license required. I just think contractors should carry insurance and be licensed/tested
Don't forget when you pay your guys union rate it costs alot to operate,but the union also lets the builder use a 7.9 inch pitch so he doesn't have to pay you or the roofer for 8 inch pitch. They also do safety training seminars for the employees, but do not do anything to ensure that the employers are providing subs with decent equipment. The union is doing good, getting paid from both sides. If you fall behind in your dues, no call they just wait till you expire and make you pay the start up again. I wonder if they have any job openings
If the union really cared about their framers, they'd change their rules to provide the upcharge at the 8.1 point instead of 8.0. I hate to think about the framers having to frame with a 7.9 rise. Thats gotta be taking money out of their pockets.
Isn't that the problem with a rule, though?If they made the rule "anything over a 7.9 rise", the designers would use 7.8.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Isn't that the problem with a rule, though?
If they made the rule "anything over a 7.9 rise", the designers would use 7.8.
I guess then, that the cutoff should be 8.1. Then, the designers could use 8 and 12, which would save the framers considerable time. I framed dozens or hundreds of roof with an 8 12 and I can tell you that I'd be very peeved to have to calculate a 7.9.
Our local union has been more or less overhauled, the chicago head office sent every one a memo of the infractions going on in our local, turns out the pres. had a huge villa in Portugal. With our new agreement we are payed by the 1/2 pitch, rounding the same way with numbers, so it would have to be 7.4 inch pitch, which is dumb, but not the absolute slap in the face that a 7.9 inch pitch was. That really only happened for one summer. Prior to that we had what was called negotiable extra's. From what I gather here in this forum a 'bastard roof' is pretty uncommon south of the border. Here it's the norm, a typical roof is 7/12 on the front and 10 -15/12 on the sides. Currently the belled roof is really popular so we get alot of steep roofs with bells. Now here is where a negotiable extra would fit in. Dormers, would usually pay 200 dollars or so. A small barrel roof would usually work out to be a little more, a small gable would likely get you not more than 100-150 dollars. That was the majority of builders.
Some builders would negotiate a 0 for these things claiming that we were making our money of sq. ft. or offer you 50 bucks for a dormer, saying that they should not be penalized for your inexperience.
Our union is definitely not one that puts a priority on it's members, well now that we aren't building much we are thier primary source of revenue. Before they would cater to the builders who would make life easy for the official that would let some of this stuff slide.
A great deal of my frustration with the framing industry is that we get no respect. I spend an hour shimming poorly leveled concrete. I have to trudge around in soil loosely piled, big chunks and voids are common. If the hydro panel is on the other side of the street, my cable will be ruined as hundreds of dumptrucks will drive over it. If There was frequently 3 or 4 framing crews using one hydro panel, so a plug per crew. I had saws just start burning sometimes from the problems with our temporary power. Our lumber is often so wet that we get wet from nailing it. We start building the roof and the saftey inspectors show up, or could show up. So not only are you worrying about keeping your feet on solid ground, and actually framing this roof, but making sure you aren't caught without your rope on too. When all of this is done we make appx 4/ ft. to build these houses.
There's a lot I don't understand about the union, so keep that in mind with my questions.You are talking about being paid so many dollars for different roof elements. Since when does the union determine what the contractors charge?I thought the union was primarily to protect the employee and determine the wages paid to that employee. Are you saying the framers were paid piece work?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I have to respectfully disagree with this one. I barely made it out of high school and if I had to go to college to become a carpenter I don't know what I would have done.
Construction is a meritocracy. I've always been hired on the basis of what I can do and that's how I hire folks too. I'm not even remotely interested in "credentials".
As a matter of fact, one of the worst carpenters I ever had on payroll was trained in England under an apprenticeship program. It was kind of funny, the guy couldn't complete anything to save his life. And talk about slow...!
This is one of the more entertaining threads.
I don't have any answers, but I have to say I do relate to the frustration of constantly struggling against hack lowball bidders while trying to stay afloat. We have licensing here, and it hasn't done a thing, that I can see, to remedy the situation. But "the cream rises to the top" is also a fantasy, as near as I can tell. The most successful guys in my area seem to be guys who have the right connections. Not the most skill, or talent, or best track record.
The guys who are good can stay busy. So can a hamster in a treadmill. And a lot of hack guys stay busy too. I know a roofing contractor who makes good money doing roof repairs/inspections with a 1 year guarantee. He told me himself he charges a few hundred dollars to walk up on the roof, spend about 5 minutes slapping down a few blobs of Henry's, and then hopes it doesn't rain for a year (this is Bakersfield, after all). The customer thinks he paid to make his roof better, but this guy's just playing a numbers game. I think its deceptive as heck and unethical, but its perfectly legal, and he makes way more money than I do.
Some of the bigger contractors are rumored to have connections with organized crime, and some are rumored to play the kickback game. And a couple actually do really good work. But one of the biggest and most successful to outward appearances that I ever worked for (nice office, full office staff, estimators, secretary, shiny new company trucks with a logo, big crews, prevailing wage jobs, etc. etc. - and he does really nice work) told me, in a heart-to heart one time, that he lives off his wife's paycheck. For all his apparent success, he doesn't bring home enough money to pay the bills, and he told me he feels emasculated by that fact. He drinks some.
I don't see the best succeed, because it isn't a level playing field. In California, the corporate giants have lobbyists to make sure the laws favor the big corporations, while penalizing the small self-employed businessman. By law, I'm supposed to be licensed, which is a cash-cow for the state and little else, as far as I can tell. The city ordinances say I cannot park my truck in my driveway or in front of my house with a lumber rack, ladder rack, or company logo, I have to park it in a neighborhood zoned for businesses - because I am a business owner. But an employee can park a moving van with a billboard on the side every day, no problem. I have to have worker's comp insurance to bid any government jobs - even 'tho I have no employees and it doesn't cover me if I get hurt, because I am the owner. Insurance rates are significantly lower for prevailing wage contractors than for the small contractor.
I'm licensed bonded and insured because I'm trying to obey the law and do the ethical thing. I do get frustrated when unlicensed contractors without insurance, no bond, and who pay their workers in cash under the table underbid me again and again and again ad nauseum.
But licensing is no guarantee of anything. I know plenty of licensed contractors who do cr&ppy work, charge a lot, burn their bridges, and move on to another victim next week. And I know of ways for guys who know nothing about construction and have zero experience to get a license, even 'tho supposedly 4 years' of journeyman experience is required (and it takes 4 years to become a journeyman). Paper "partnership"s, Responsible Managing Employee, grandfathered in under a relative's license, etc.
A house I just did an addition on was built by a big, successful builder who owns a mansion on the golf course. Quality? - the roof leaks, there are holes big enough that a rotweiler could get in the attic (frieze blocks left out between 4x8 rafters), the trim is twisting like potato chips after 2 years, the tile cracked because there was no isolation membrane, undersized beams are sagging, other beams are out of level, overloaded electrical circuits, some of the exposed woodwork has 1/2" gaps and bigger, exposed beams cut halfway with a skilsaw then flipped and cut the other half, with the line down the middle still showing - there is poor craftsmanship on virtually every detail in the house (except the sheetrock, which turned out real nice -except for the nailpops, that is). Its big and looks good from a distance.
This guy (the builder) is a millionaire. People hire him because he knows the right people, he exudes success and confidence (I'm guessing - at any rate, it can't be because of his great work).
I have a wealthy client (she's an attorney, and the DA's girlfriend) who calls me frequently to work on her million dollar home, and on her law office. Maintenance and upkeep type work. She has complete trust in me, and I have the keys to both home and office. She seldom asks pricing, "just do it and bill me". A great customer for years.
Yet, when she did a very small remodel, she didn't even call me. She called the builder of her home, paid an inflated price for an incomplete job, then hired me T&M to finish the job and correct the deficiencies. Because, bottom line, he is the "in" contractor in her social group, and I'm not.
After 20 years' of doing business here, my list of repeat customers can be counted on one finger: her. Yet almost every customer of mine has raved about my quality, and promised more work down the road. Am I going to rise to the top some day, and have a 2-year waiting list? I'm not holding my breath.
One of the problems I have noted in certain instances is with the corporate layers, there is a disconnect somewhere. Example: I did a repair to a Barnes and Noble bookstore that a drunk drove into, busted out a stucco column and a big storefront window. They couldn't get anyone who was available immediately and who was qualified to do the work. I was the hero of the moment. I came in at a reasonable price, dropped everything to jump on it immediately, devised a method of sealing in the conditioned air and keeping out thieves and noise and dust while the work transpired, got it done in time for the "Harry Potter" latest edition hoopla, kept the jobsite clean, did good work, blahdedahblahbla.
But no one at the bookstore even knows me, because I was hired by some corporate office in another state. The manager of the store never talked with me once, other than to say "It better be done in time for Harry Potter". And the person that hired me, that I bailed out of their predicament, doesn't even work there anymore. So really who cares anymore, now that the work is done - I'm nobody to anybody at this place, in spite of the good work I did. Oh yeah, and they took about 4 months to get around to paying me.
I just did a similar job, much smaller 'tho, for T-mobile. Hired by a corporate office in Texas. Met with the manager for 5 minutes to sign off on my work. He wouldn't know me, nor I him, if we were in line together at the bank. Disconnect.
Edited 2/17/2009 5:18 am by Huck
Huck,Good post. There certainly is a dark side to carpentry. #1 requirement to being in the business of carpentry: Know people! It's all who you know and who they know....oh, and (obviously) who you know has gotta have money too. Power and influence an extra.The next requirement is to be old. My experience has been that not many will pay a young guy who is really good what they will pay an old hack. I do great trim work. I began my career working for a GC who specialized in high end custom trim work. "Perfect is close enough" was his standard. Then I worked for a cabinetmaker to get even better. Then I tried it on my own and realized quickly that you can't become a trim carpenter until you are at least 50-60 yrs old. Third, It helps to have money (or pretend to) before you can make money. Shiny pick-ups and fancy logos sometimes do make up for lack of skill. Rusty trucks and worn jeans scream "drunkard" to some, "bad credit" to others. That's why around here UAW guys do so well....they all have nice new trucks.If you don't have requirements #1-3 then you better just have a good education, a great personality, and excellent business sense. You might at least break even.But, that's been my argument thus far. Think of all the people that say "so and so is the best carp ever, but couldn't make it in business". Now think about if that guy went to school and was formally taught how to run a carpentry business (Intro to Carpentry Accounting 101), he learns how to talk to clients (Construction Proposal Theory 232), and he learns about aspects of building that he never before got a chance to (Engineered Lumber Tech 126 and Intro to Photovoltaics 162).Then that guy could have a fighting chance towards success.BTW to all naysayers of college educated carpenters:
Everyone tests well and does well in school if the subject is interesting to them!
I graduated HS with at 2.8 GPA but graduated college 3.79 magna cum laude. One architecture school said I didn't pass their minimum HS GPA requirement but they would allow me to take a "creativity test" to displace the poor GPA.....which the councilor said was pretty much just an ink-blot test. While I found HS to be almost too difficult, I found that when every aspect of my education was geared towards my interest of architecture and construction I could excel quite easily. DC
Sunsen,Thanks, I understand what you are saying and I agree that it may seem unfair. I also don't know what you would've done if it were required to attend college to be a carpenter. Although I don't know when you graduated HS, I can confidently say that if it were prior to today then it would have been more common for young people to drop out of HS and not go to college. The further back the more common and I think that's why the older carpenters here at BT are more prone to be against a college requirement. Be aware that when you say "...if I had to go to college to become a carpenter..." you may be comparing the near future to the past; so as to say in pre 1880's someone probably debated "...if I had to go to college to become lawyer...". Law is also a "meritocracy" and in 99.9% of cases, nobody's life is on the line and who really needed to be educated in order to simply argue a matter. If you got a lawsuit thrown at you tomorrow would you want a licensed lawyer or would you rather have that guy at the local bar who has no formal education but is really good at arguing with everyone? I'm just being comparative.Speaking of meritocracy....Huck has a lot of things to say about that in the next post.DC
I'd rather have my wife to rep me than any lawyer. She knows more and is way smarter than the attorney she works for.
Repped me to the IRS, came out owing $0
Jeeze, what are the chances? lolFair enough. A good cross-argumentDoes she have any formal education in the subject?If not, maybe she should....She becomes big shot lawyer, then you could retire :-)DC
Enough money and anyone can be a lawyer. No formal ed., a GED and after 5 years knew as much (or more) than the boss.
No, a GED and no formal ed. Can't be a lawyer, felony convictions. Her and her sister were the brains of the outfit. oops, double post. lost the first one.
Edited 2/17/2009 9:44 am ET by catfish
Well, to be honest, what I got from Huck's post is that you really have to pay attention to your client stream. I cut loose dead end clients all the time and only spend time and energy on those who have real potential.
Also, my experience is that the quickest route to learning basic business survival skills is to get in the game. There really is nothing like hands on, real world experience when it comes to acquiring an education.
My HVAC guy hired a fellow fresh out of trade school and had him on one of my projects for a week or so. His regular guy, who has only a rudimentary understanding of english, ran circles around him. I felt sorry for the fellow from the school, as he was a nice guy, but my HVAC guy is fairly mercenary so the trainee didn't last long.
"my experience is that the quickest route to learning basic business survival skills is to get in the game. There really is nothing like hands on, real world experience when it comes to acquiring an education."C'mon, that's a cop out. Everyone knows you can't learn everything from a book but you can get a huge head start. You may say that you learned everything on your own, but I don't think you can really say that you wouldn't have gotten there quicker if that first guy you worked under sat you down and showed you how to run a construction company. Every situation is different, you start by learning the basics at school, in a book, from a mentor then you must be creative and adaptive. Every situation is like that. Even your non-english speaking tin tapper learned from someone. It's simply non-formal apprentice education from a mentor. All I am saying is that we round up these mentors after they are through with manual labor (retiring) and put them to work teaching up and coming tradespeople in a formal, standardized environment.DC
All I am saying is that we round up these mentors after they are through with manual labor (retiring) and put them to work teaching up and coming tradespeople in a formal, standardized environment.
That doesn't sound like such a bad idea - where do kids go to learn this stuff these days?
"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Edited 2/17/2009 1:19 pm by Huck
Of course I learned from the folks I worked for. I'm just saying that I learned while earning a paycheck as opposed to going to school. As a matter of fact, I can't think of anyone I know or work with, past or present, who hasn't learned the same way.
And I get information from books and the internet too, thereby learning what I need to know. But there is no way you'd say I had any formal education when it comes to the building trades and running a business. You learn from the people who are doing it, as you do it. Way better than any sort of school experience.
college or OJT... it's all going to even out....there is a lerning theory... somewhat explored in "Outliers' that it takes 10,000 hours of practise to develop profiiciency in a subject
the thing that most of us eventually realize is that just being a carpenter isn't all it takes to be successful in the business of contracting
college is only one route to that knowledgeMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I certainly don't care where a person gets their knowledge. I'm just strongly opposed to any sort of requirement like a college degree to be a carpenter.
Mike, Close...but it should be college AND OJTI figure in my proposed licensing path, one would have a license after about 17,000 hrs of practice. A mixture of school and work is necessary to ensure a licensee will have a chance to learn a majority of what is needed. If he just went with OJT, he may just know how to frame or he may learn all the aspects of construction but never learn a thing about business. I would hope if they went to school and got an overview of all aspects of construction then they wouldn't be disadvantaged when they go into the field and become specialists for awhile. DC
dc.... that is so much BS
how many of your "licensed contractors " would exist in the US ? with the requirements you are considering ?
... the hurdle you are talking about is equivelent to the hurdle for registered architects... and registered architects cannot service the design needs of our population.... so designers and draftsmen take up the slack
take another profession.... law.... they have the requirements you are looking for.... how is that working out....do we have too many lawyers .... or is it just right ? what has it done to make the profession more ethical ?....
the number of "contractors " is controlled by the marketplace... if you add to the requirements to restrain trade.. the need for those numbers will continue but the supply will be inadequate.. so the whole residential trade will become scoff-laws
i myself could not meet the criteria you list
you and 5150 both seem to exist in a parallel universe
states are moving to "registration" and / or "licensing"..... but if you set the entry level hurdle too high , you will defeat your own purpose
you are trying to creat a new classification of "contractor"..... along the lines of " Master Builder".... but too often..... "Master Builder" is just cover for "Master BS'r"
i'll give you another example..... let's take the "Big Dig".... those were multi-billion dollar corporations with architects and Professional Engineers on staff.... all overseen by lawyers and other Professionals working for the state and federal government... yet.... substandard and shoddy work still managed to get doneMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Yep.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
what mike said.
the thing that most of us eventually realize is that just being a carpenter isn't all it takes to be successful in the business of contracting
Exactly. In fact...being a carpenter is a huge detriment to being successful in the business of contracting. Carpenters are probably the worst group of business people. The state probably should ban any carpenters from getting a license or going into business!
Quote: "Of course I learned from the folks I worked for. I'm just saying that I learned while earning a paycheck as opposed to going to school. As a matter of fact, I can't think of anyone I know or work with, past or present, who hasn't learned the same way. And I get information from books and the internet too, thereby learning what I need to know. But there is no way you'd say I had any formal education when it comes to the building trades and running a business."That's the problem and the solution. You learned from one guy, I learned from another, everyone else from everyone else. Therefore I know things different from you and you know different from everyone else. That's basically the only way to learn carpentry. But it shouldn't be. There needs to be some standards. I see a lot of Q's posted here from carpenters asking about really basic aspects of construction. Those basic aspects (codes, safety, business, accounting, standard construction technique, building science, etc.) could easily be taught in a college format. The rest from paid OJT.Quote: "I certainly don't care where a person gets their knowledge. I'm just strongly opposed to any sort of requirement like a college degree to be a carpenter."That seems a little closed minded. While I do care where people get their knowledge and I'm strongly for some sort of requirement like a college degree to be a carpenter. I am at least open to discussion and compromise...especially when we are currently only dealing in the hypothetical. You really won't need to go back, rather we are just talking about the possibility of new carpenters to be required to.You do seem to have a slight grudge against college education. I am curious why? Have you ever taken a college class? I should inform you that I went to college after working in the trades for 9 years, mostly working for a GC doing remodels involving most every aspect of light construction but also in a specialty field of cabinetmaking and trim carpentry. Both of my mentors, I felt, were true masters of carpentry. But I feel that going to college after OJT gave me a unique insight into what college courses can offer that even well rounded OJT can leave out. I was able to find out that my old GC boss wasn't as keen on the science of construction as I previously thought...and therefore he taught me wrong. I found out that there were different methods of providing cabinetry than that one way I was taught in the cabinet shop. I learned that while both were masters at their craft, they both knew nothing about business and therefore passed nearly nil on to me in that aspect. Also I learned that college isn't only about going to class but also about making friendships (AKA "connections") that everyone should know is very useful in this industry.what is your school experience?DC
Not to worry, I'm not the slightest bit concerned that I may have to go back to school someday, heh, heh. But I certainly don't want to see this burden foisted on young people who can't meet the requirement. To me that's a little like the folks who buy property out on the coast, build, then try to shut down development because they have theirs and they don't want it spoiled by people who want to do the exact same thing.
What I'm saying is college is unnecessary and making it a requirement will simply exclude a whole bunch of folks who may be very talented when it comes to working with their hands but won't ever be able to handle the education scene. Right off the top of my head I can think of a number of fine carpenters I've worked with who never would have made it through your system. The reasons range from lack of money, time, book learning ability, motivation, to you name it. Should they not be able to work at their chosen profession due to some rule that has no real bearing on their ability to do their job? Of course not. If you want standards, join the union. They train folks all the time.
Also, as an employer, I certainly don't want a college professor limiting my labor pool. The fact that someone can pay the tuition, has the free time and knows how to take a course in school doesn't mean he's of any value to me. I'm certain I know my needs far better than some certifying bureaucracy.
But, like you said, this is totally hypthetical, it ain't going to happen. I'm just opposed to the idea, in principle.
Sunsen, in support of your point:Most of us, certainly, do not believe a college education makes one incompetent, as a carpenter, or for any other trade. Nonetheless, to require someone to attend a place of higher education conditional to being free to pound nails into boards, so to speak, could well weed out some of the finest of the trade.When a child, I was drug into a small room and forced to take math tests isolated from all the other students. The basis for this was, they "knew" I was cheating. However, at the end of the day, the testers were confused by that I still passed their tests. Subsequently, they kept me isolated for a week more and gave me additional tests. Years later I learned they did this to learn how I was doing the math, because I never showed the work and I couldn't explain it to my testers. My suspicion is it was much like with the generation before me, when left handed children were forced to learn to write right handed. Similarly, the system was intolerant of my "left hand thinking." Interestingly, some of the "new math" my children brought home reminded me of my way of approaching a math problems.The point of the foregoing is many a good mind will be lost to a trade or occupation because it didn't "think right handed." For example, someone may be a marginal writer, but may excel in math and science. For want of the other abilities, he or she may drop out of college. At the same time, an individual whose ability in all areas are marginal could go on to graduate and move into a credentialed profession.So what is right? There is the fact many a college educated individual has horrific writing [or other] skills. I never graduated from high school, but I think my skills reasonable in comparison to many attorneys and doctors with whom I've come in contact. Would I be better off for having finished school and obtaining a higher education? Probably. On the other hand, such a path, likely, would have wholly changed who I am and may even have compromised my ability to accomplish many of the things I did.For another example, consider that, shortly after his retirement, Chief Justice Warren Burger shocked the ABA and just about every other lawyer and judge, by publicly speaking out in his keynote address with his famous quote that was well covered by mainstream media. To wit: "In all my years as a judge at every level of the bench, including the Supreme court, at least 85% of all lawyers that practiced before me were either INCOMPETENT, CORRUPT, OR BOTH." That was in the mid 1980's. Research indicates that, now, it is closer to 98%.In spite of my lack of education credentials, I have been confused for a "professional" on numerous occasions (much to my chagrin, it was a certain type of individual associated with the practice of law). Several of my documents (related to administrative law and regarding accessing public records)are yet in use by individuals employed by State of WA and local agencies. I was asked to assist in rewriting local disclosure laws. A few decades previous to that, while employed by it, the federal government adopted several of my procedural writings on the repair and assembly of complex electro-mechanical repairs of the MK 46 and MK 53 Attack Consoles and the MK 6 Dummy Director. Too, while working prototypes, I corrected what could have been catastrophic procedure for operation of a lightning ground monitor system. During the aforementioned times, I was surround by well educated individuals who overlooked, sometimes for more than a decade, what I thought obvious.Formal education has its value, to be sure, but is not an end all solution and guarantees nothing. Often it inhibits as much as it inspires. Some things cannot be taught and just come with time and experience. Remember, not all great inventions and such were born of the efforts of Dupont, or some other corporate giant. The little, uneducated guy has his worth too.
I can appreciate this.
There are certainly some "educated" folks who get into contracting but generally they're "paper" contractors who are in the game when there's "easy" money to be made. Though, oddly enough, it's not so easy for them, I think. They're missing a key ingredient which is a natural born interest in what they do. Hard to manufacture that.
On the other hand, every single general contractor who came up through the trades that I know of started out as a carpenter, except one, and he was a drywall guy. It's kind of a natural progression for folks who have an interest in the business side of things. I mean, you want to keep challanging yourself in effort to stay interested. There is nothing about the endeavor that requires any sort of "higher education". All you need to know is readily available to anyone who's been working for any length of time.
Of course, there are plenty of carpenters who really aren't interested in becoming GCs. It's just not in 'em. And it's perfectly fine to just be into the work if that's one's interest. Probably best not even to try the business side of the deal and remain as a woodworker, either working for someone else or doing stuff on a small scale.
Either way, this is not a profession that needs any input from the so-called system of "higher learning" we have in place in this country. If there's information to be had there for pursuits like designing silicon chips or for doing genetic engineering then fine, go for it; but leave the building trades, which have existed for milleniums without the intrusion, alone. Like they say, "It ain't rocket science.".
I read somewhere some time a ago that builders are the most productive folks in our society. By necessity. That, I can believe. Meddling would only hinder that productivity.
By the way, I live and work in the orbit of Stanford University and know four professors quite well. You ought to hear what they have to say about their professions and the scene in general, lol! And these are really smart people.
All,Wow, after 200 posts in this thread, I finally feel like some of you are actually figuring out what I have to say and are responding in a logical and intelligent manner (excluding Blue and Dino). Sunsen, Mike, and Dejure make a few good points and have convinced me enough to look at this idea of mine another way. Again, just looking at the hypothetical still. I understand what Mike is saying about not having enough labor force. So maybe the common carpenter shouldn't NEED a license or an upper level education...which would fall in line with what 5150 was saying about mechanics and paperhangers. But, maybe upper level education and degree could at least be offered for carpenters/mechanics. And "Master Carpenter" status required for the "contractor"....He who signs contracts to do carpentry work. Those under him wouldn't NEED any verification but by being a "Licensed/Degreed Master Carpenter" he is "legally obligated to supervise those whom work under him". How does that sound?Heck, I may even be inclined to say a "contractor" doesn't need a degree or a license. Okay...No license required to do anything (doctors & Lawyers too!) but at least I could go to college and legally become a Master Carpenter. Then any business card or sign saying Master Carpenter would actually mean something and the customers could freely choose between someone who is verifiable and someone who isn't. Is that better?That seems to envelop what I have been saying without involving a corruptible entity. Although I would still want the gov to prosecute those who claim MC without actually being so. Here are some random points:
1.)Most high schools do not offer construction classes and are gradually doing away with any classes compatible with skilled trades careers (woodshop, metalshop, even art). In fact, most schools discourage youngsters from graduating high school and joining the trades.
2.)Most universities do not offer classes pertaining to the overall field of building....there is engineering, construction management, and architecture but no carpentry/building degrees.
3.)Some CC's and Tech schools offer degrees/certificates in HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing, Welding, and Machining but not Carpentry that I have seen, and not that it would be worth much if they did.
4.)I try to practice what I preach. I am not better than anyone here, but I would like to be. Not in a mean, "I look down to you" way, but in a craft and knowhow way. If I could go to UM to attain a Bach or Master in carpentry I would have. Instead I went for architecture. I also take workshops when I can...solar technology, timberframing, blacksmithing, complex stairbuilding. I bought a "fixer upper" home to work on in my spare time and garner skill in the less fine aspects of construction. I am setting up a full wood shop to hone finer aspects of carpentry by making boats and furniture. I am trying to define my own path towards becoming a true Master Carpenter.
5.) Master carpenter is an overused and therefore under appreciated term.DC
Edited 2/19/2009 8:54 am ET by Dreamcatcher
And "Master Carpenter" status required for the "contractor"....He who signs contracts to do carpentry work. Those under him wouldn't NEED any verification but by being a "Licensed/Degreed Master Carpenter" he is "legally obligated to supervise those whom work under him". How does that sound?
Not good.
It sounds like you read what the others have said and then just went ahead with what you've been saying.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin,That iteration differs in that it would allow anyone to pick up a hammer and be a carpenter under someone who is already a master; thereby allowing more in to shore up the labor force yet still create desire to go further in the profession. But now I stand with the simple proposal that "journeyman (bachelor) carpenter" and "master builder" be degreed and legally protected titles. Lets say 4 yr and 6yr degrees respectively with 2yr on the job training after receipt of degree and separate multipart tests for each. This wouldn't be required to be a carpenter or contractor. But maybe it lowers rates on liability, workers comp, health ins., req. bonding, or building permits, special interest rates, and could even be some tax rebates in there to offset the cost of college. Those lowered rates (ultimately lowered CODB) would be justified because a degreed/licensed master carpenter would have verifiable health and safety training (likely OSHA certified), he would have a verifiable knowledge of the codes, he would likely have a better chance of succeeding on the business end due to construction business training, He is more likely to remain in the industry than non-degreed carpenters.DC
And where would I fall in your grand scheme of things?
4yrs Liberal Arts education, 37 yrs as a residential and commercial carpenter and remodeling contractor. Union Journeyman. Never been sued. Never went bankrupt.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
You'd have to retire, Cal , you been doing this for to long, way out of step. Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
What? retire and miss the good time I'm having?
surely you jest.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin,You'd just be a carpenter.DC
So I'd be just a carpenter?
Not a bad thing.
You say I couldn't pull permits nor run my own company like I do now?
Not a good thing.
And how do you feel about "testing out"?
You know what I mean as you are a college man.
Does testing out allow someone to forego your curriculum and the associated costs?
And as long as we're bringing up those we've come in contact with or know as you call it. Over all these years I've run into many that thought they knew it all and oftentimes they were all hat and hardly any cattle. Some young like you and some old like me.
By the way, your former buddy dino qualifies in the EMT area. You may have seen his article in the recent FHB.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 2/20/2009 4:40 pm ET by calvin
calvin,Yes, you'd just be a carpenter...in that such iteration of idea mind you.Otherwise, through the good persuasive words of some here, I have come to the conclusion that all I really want is for coming generations to be able to pursue carpentry in a higher education forum. I think I mentioned before the "grandfather" rule which I suppose would include the chance for experienced ones like you (and I) to have a chance to test into an upper indication of carpentry.I wouldn't want to exclude those who are truly skilled and passionate about being a real carpenter but rather rid our trade of those who aren't and maybe create passion in those who were previously wishy wash. My passion, in it's essence, is my achilles. I love what I do. I am very passionate about carpentry and would like to separate myself from those who enter carpentry as a fall back or secondary opportunity. I feel like this trade is too time honored and respectable for a certain few to downgrade because of greed, dishonesty, lackluster, or ignorance. While I may have downplayed Dinosoaur, I don't think him a poor carpenter, he simply doesn't make for good argument or conversation. If he is EMT, he has more than I thought on me because I don't but would like to, and of course wish it were part of my past learning experience. I commend him on that!Though I know enough to know I don't know it all, it doesn't keep me from want to.ThanksDC
While I am a proponent, of professionals being required to prove that they have a mastery of the depth and breadth of the knowledge required for their profession, I am adamantly opposed to formal education requirement as proof of having that knowledge. The goal is to assure a certain level of knowledge be demonstrated as a condition of professional licensure: Not, to say what path must be taken to gain the knowledge.
There are two ways to specify things as a designer. One is a proscriptive or method specification. It sets out in detail how the work is to be done. For example a method specification could give details and requirements for a concrete forming system, and a pour schedule. The problem is that when it doesn't work, you as the designer are liable for the effort required to correct it.
The other method is a performance specification. You do not give any clue as to how you expect the contractor to complete the work. You just give a set of clearly defined measurable standards of what must be accomplished. Back to the concrete forming example, you list a set of tolerances for plumb, deviation from straight, and the dimensions shown on the plans, that are allowed. You let the contractor figure out how to construct to the specification, and the contractor is liable for any extra work required to correct things that are wrong.
Skilled, experienced designers, know that Contractors are pretty ingenious, and let them figure out how to do the work.
I am a licensed engineer. To get my license I had to take two tests: The FE, or Fundamentals of Engineering exam, and the P.E. or Professional Engineering exam. You have to have either: 4-years of paraprofessional experience, and recommendations from four licensed engineers; or, be in the third year of a four year engineering curriculum, and have the recommendation of one Professor who is a licensed engineer to sit for the exam. Once you pass the FE you have to get four years of progressively more responsible experience in engineering and the recommendation of four licensed engineers, familiar with your skills, (only two of which may be from your current employer), in order to sit for the P.E. exam.
I'm pretty smart, but there is no way I could have passed either of those two exams with out going to college to gain not just the technical knowledge, but the legal, and financial knowledge required to answer the questions.
There is a move among the licensing boards to start requiring a college degree as the sole qualifier to set for the FE exam. I discussed this with a member of the Licensing Board, in one of the states I am licensed in. She was a proponent of the change. (We attended college together, and dated for a short period. So, we have a pretty good feel for how smart we are or aren't.)
I pointed out that anyone who can gain the knowledge required to pass those exams without going to college is far smarter than either of us. Because, neither of us could have done it. She now agrees with me that the experience, and ability to pass the test are qualifiers enough. We both agree, that if someone sets for either of the exams twice and fails, the Board should require proof, as to how the person has increased their knowledge, before they can retake the exam.
J-N-F,Good post, I like the specification allusion.I agree that carpenters can be pretty ingenious, sometimes the ingenuity of a carpenter can result into trade standard, unfortunately sometimes that ingenuity is transferred into devious practice.I wasn't aware there were so many rules for engineer testing, but I suppose that is a good thing...Engineers are liability experts whereas carpenters are often liability retarded. I like the fact that there are two exams for engineers and would agree there should be a similar standard in carpentry. "Fundamentals" or less is all it takes to get licensed right now in Michigan...but it's the "Professional practice" that trips up those same licensed contractors and either puts them out of business or turns them into shady dealers...or both. Lots of previously licensed contractors out there working for licensed contractors who don't know squat about building. I agree that you learn in the field but there is an unsure limit to what you learn and if you even learn correctly. Most carpenters have no idea of 98% of the code book requirements...why, because nobody taught them. They probably don't know what they should about safety (how many carpenters do you know with basic CPR or first aid training?), they usually don't do their own taxes or have a clue what it takes to run a business. Construction geometry, algebra, trig, structural engineering, legal english, spreadsheets, CAD (I know several contractor/carpenters who don't yet own a computer!), ethics, economics, LEED training, etc,etc. And I haven't even mentioned anything about skill or technique yet.I learned a lot on the job...but only because I wanted to. It was only because of my desire to learn that I read the books on construction, took on side projects that challenged my knowledge, changed career focus to hone my skills, and ultimately paid my way through higher education. So, maybe the question is; How do we convince the next gen to have more desire in the construction trades?DC
like i said... parallel universe....
here's your statement...
<<<Most carpenters have no idea of 98% of the code book requirements...why, because nobody taught them. They probably don't know what they should about safety (how many carpenters do you know with basic CPR or first aid training?), they usually don't do their own taxes or have a clue what it takes to run a business. Construction geometry, algebra, trig, structural engineering, legal english, spreadsheets, CAD (I know several contractor/carpenters who don't yet own a computer!), ethics, economics, LEED training, etc,etc. And I haven't even mentioned anything about skill or technique yet.>>>
i have not idea where you get that.. i suspect you have a lack of contact with "most carpenters"
are we talking about those aged 29 and younger ?
those that have been in the business for 10 years or longer.... ?
are we talking about carpenters who work for others ... or carpenters who work for themselves
carpenters with no employees.... or carpenters with employees
carpenters who operate where osha makes inspections and issues fines or carpenters who have no contact with osha and don't know anyone who has
carpenters who have building codes that are enforced... or those working where there are no codes ?
me thinks you are projecting your own limited experience into a universal set
shame on you....Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,I base my information carpenters I have met and worked for and alongside over the years.
Some guys who have been in business for decades and don't know or can't remember the codes.
I am yet to meet a carpenter with CPR or first aid training (I'm sure they are out there though) and when injuries have happened on job sites I've seen lots of dumb faces standing around not knowing what to do.
I know at least a dozen carpenters that are scared to attempt their own taxes, allow someone else to do them, and are amazed that I am able to figure out my own.
I only know a few carpenters who use any sort of CAD or spreadsheet, they think I am some sort of computer genius for figuring it out. Seems to apply more to the older bunch. And yes, I do know carpenters who don't own a computer.
Most carpenters I know don't even try to use construction math, and would rather just beef up a beam or header than figure out the load and many who use a guess and check method instead of actually calculating a hypotenuse. Then I seem like a mathmatician to them for using a calculator to determine a number.I'm not saying I'm perfect or I know everything or even have all the qualifications mentioned. But I am saying that there should be better training to actually attain those qualifications rather than hoping the guys around you have all the answers.So, while I may be included in my universal experience of carpenter education I am by no means basing it on myself alone, nor on just guys my age, nor just business owners, or any other sub set of criteria you mention. It's just the way things are in this world we work in.But, I suppose you must just break the mold so expressly that you don't know what's going on in the world below you.DC
i think you must be in a bad locus
i've been in business since '75
i joined RIBA in '75
i go to seminars.... the rooms are full
i send my guys for cpr... lead abatement... osha 10...
the classes are fullthe bi's are always educating builders about the new code changes
are there ignorant carpenters ? yes..
but not in the percentages you quote
and certainly not in this peer groupwhen you get to be 33 you can look back and rethink this conversationMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
" base my information carpenters I have met and worked for and alongside over the years. Some guys who have been in business for decades and don't know or can't remember the codes. I am yet to meet a carpenter with CPR or first aid training (I'm sure they are out there though) and when injuries have happened on job sites I've seen lots of dumb faces standing around not knowing what to do.I know at least a dozen carpenters that are scared to attempt their own taxes, allow someone else to do them, and are amazed that I am able to figure out my own.I only know a few carpenters who use any sort of CAD or spreadsheet, they think I am some sort of computer genius for figuring it out. Seems to apply more to the older bunch. And yes, I do know carpenters who don't own a computer.Most carpenters I know don't even try to use construction math, and would rather just beef up a beam or header than figure out the load and many who use a guess and check method instead of actually calculating a hypotenuse. Then I seem like a mathmatician to them for using a calculator to determine a number."
You know I want to take each of these and respond.
The first one might be true, although I find it hard to believe that if a person has much time in the field, they wouldn't know the applicable laws.
I will add my name to the list as one who has had first aid training, and used it on myself! As far as others, most people know enough to dial 911 when the normal fist aid needed on a job site is not enough.
Again, I have known lots of young carp that don't do their taxes, why, they want to spend their free time doing things they like, so hire others with more experience. I have done my own taxes, but have found that the older I get the more I would rather pay someone to do them. I don't work on my vehicles either, for the same reason.
I know some carpenters that don't own a computor, but the number is declining yearly. As far as spreadsheats or cad, again, I would spend my money to hire someone that does it better than I do.
As one who does know how to figure out the geometry, I have found through most of the older carpenters I have worked with that there are other methods of doing without. In fact most of their ideas work out better. One I like is the measuring of individual rafters, somethig taught to me by an old carpenter that was used to working on older houses where straight, level and plumb were not all that important.
Most of what you want can be done with workshops like Mike sends his men to.
I really don't know what you want to do, but our profession is not a white coller job, it actually requires a person to use there hands. This in the long run is the most important.
"
I base my information carpenters I have met and worked for and alongside over the years. Some guys who have been in business for decades and don't know or can't remember the codes. I am yet to meet a carpenter with CPR or first aid training (I'm sure they are out there though) and when injuries have happened on job sites I've seen lots of dumb faces standing around not knowing what to do.I know at least a dozen carpenters that are scared to attempt their own taxes, allow someone else to do them, and are amazed that I am able to figure out my own.I only know a few carpenters who use any sort of CAD or spreadsheet, they think I am some sort of computer genius for figuring it out. Seems to apply more to the older bunch. And yes, I do know carpenters who don't own a computer.Most carpenters I know don't even try to use construction math, and would rather just beef up a beam or header than figure out the load and many who use a guess and check method instead of actually calculating a hypotenuse. Then I seem like a mathmatician to them for using a calculator to determine a number."
I'm not sure you understand what a Carpenter does.
Thirty years ago, I took over a crew for my boss. One of the guys was slightly "simple". Maybe he was slightly retarded or whatever..I don't know. One thing I do know is the guy would pound a house together and be a carpenter all day every day and you can take that to the bank!
No, he wasn't a tax advisor, nor was he any good for saving my life if I had a heart attack. He didn't own a computer and I'm sure he could care less about them now. He never used a calculator and I'm sure he never read a code book. I don't know if he could read....but he sure could stand up a house!
You sound like an east coast elitist.
Oh yeah....engineers specify headers. Carpenters install them. There's a big difference.
I figure in my proposed licensing path, one would have a license after about 17,000 hrs of practice.
Well, I don't have a license to be a professional arithmatician, so I hope Big Brother is snoozing tonight. But what I was taught in grade school shows that 17,000 hours is equivalent to a bit over 8 years of 40-hour weeks. That's what medical students are required to do.
...after 200 posts in this thread, I finally feel like some of you are actually figuring out what I have to say...
If it takes 200 posts before people can figure out what you have to say, perhaps you'd better go back to college, do 17,000 hours, and get a license to be a writer.
...and are responding in a logical and intelligent manner (excluding Blue and Dino).
Nice. Somebody doesn't agree with you, so ipso facto he's unintelligent and illogical. You learn that at the Dogbert School of Management?
If I could go to UM to attain a Bach or Master in carpentry I would have. Instead I went for architecture.
No comment.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I thought the same>G<
If I could go to UM to attain a Bach or Master in carpentry I would have. Instead I went for architecture
WARNING, [LONG] RAMBLING FOLLOWS: An old concept likely quite applicable success and competing in the building industry: Forget changing everyone else, work on yourself. For me, getting to success means, as much as anything else, “not competing.†More specifically, I chose to try to be the best by being different and standing out. Making myself notably different than my competitors helps me ask more for my time. When burl tables were the rage, I also made them, but made mine with etched glass tops and resin finishes. Another thing I try to do is to know more about my work than my competition, then share my knowledge with my potential customers. Educating them is one of my best means of standing out in the crowd and, as a result, I’ve gotten bids when I was three times as high as my nearest competitor. Early on in my government career I watched coworkers jealously guard their notes about their work. It was obvious they operated under the premise of that holding knowledge no one else had made them look good, or better than everyone else. I too took notes. I was and am a habitual note taker. I have notes about my notes. It’s that bad. But I shared my notes, with only a few exceptions. As a result, not just I, but my entire shop looked good. In the end, going against the norm altered my career and opened doors others would never know. So too it can be with our trades. There is nothing we do that cannot be learned elsewhere, whether through experience, net searches, school, experience, or other avenues. Yet many guard common techniques as if they were state secrets, often forgetting they know what they do because others did not keep their cards to their vests. If I see away for a customer to protect their project, or save money, I share it. Often, doing so is to what could be my own financial detriment, but it seldom is. If they become my customer for any significant project, they are more than a little likely to spend the money elsewhere on the project anyway. This may mean teaching a customer what he, or she needed to know to “not need me.†But I did so knowing only a few would take on the work themselves. Though a few times, I’ve lost a bid and seen the customer applying what I taught them when working with the winning bidder. I just find it amusing. Some time back I wanted to learn to play with granite. I went to a granite shop and talked with the owner and told him what I wanted to do, including what tools I wanted to buy. Though he sold the tools I wanted, he not only taught me several things I needed to know, but convinced me I could go much cheaper routes. While I haven’t greatly impacted his life, I go out of my way to send customers to this man. On matters of sharing knowledge, let me go back to fences and decks for an example: Treated wood, or cedar often arrives at the job with 12%, or more moisture content (around 220% here in the great Northwet). You build a deck out of it and walk away. Then comes the sun. The wood begins drying and shrinking. As it shrinks, it cracks. In time, it looks horrible. The process is hastened if water enters the cracks and freezes. In a decade or so, you get to build a new deck or fence. Meanwhile and shortly after being built, the project looks only a little better than others around it that are years older. An exception to the foregoing is the less than one percent (okay, I just made that number up, but it’s a really handy number and I’ve used it before) of the builders who attempt to learn how to protect their customer’s investment. Many apply things that contain the word “sealer†in it on the advice of some big box store employee parroting a vendor. Unfortunately, since there is no school that will teach what to do to preserve such projects, one gets information where one can, and with the least amount of effort. If one does search his options, he finds more confusion than fact. Purported experts offer what, essentially, are inadequate, quick commercial solutions that may compound problems in the future, such as requiring removal of the old protective finish, leaving the homeowner little better off, if at all, than had the surface been wholly neglected. If it’s that hard for builders to find needed information, how much harder is it for the homeowner? Most seem to trust that the knowing builder has taken care of their property and obliviously presume it will last years, without the homeowner without lifting a finger. If they bother to ask what they should do, most builders would parrot the box store, know of no other solutions. As pointed out by other posters, acquiring knowledge is an asset and can set you off from others. But not just if you apply it, you may have to share it to see its full potential. Some time back I wanted to learn to play with granite. I went to a granite shop and talked with the owner and told him what I wanted to do, including what tools I wanted to buy. Though he sold the tools I wanted, he taught me several things and convinced me I could go much cheaper routes. While I haven’t greatly impacted his life, I go out of my way to send customers to this man who was willing to share with me ways of saving money to pursue what he did for a living. The point is, some people remember such acts If advertising, business signs and unique advertising can stand you out. It doesn’t always have to be complicated. For example, one year I ran a painting add. I was up against big boys with a lot of advertising nickels. I bought five lines, but used only three of them, then put a box around my add. In the middle of a yellow page with huge, expensive adds, mine stood out for the air around it. All it gave was the critical contact info and what I did. It worked. On the matter of phone book adds, they just plug along, day after day, doing their job. They can change your life. However, a little research revealed that, locally, the Dex pages and not the Yellow Pages were the yellow pages everyone used, so that’s where my adds ran. On watching where others advertise the most, I, as a kid, thought I’d corner a market, because no one else was advertising in the local Little Nickel. Then I started reading books on mail order marketing and learned an important fact: I wasn’t the first to try to sell a widget and, if others [far older than I] weren’t advertising there, it was probably for good reason. People seem to love senior, military, handicap and other discounts (you suppose there might be a reason we see those discounts wherever we go?). How many times have you peeled a sticker to see what the pre sale price was, only to find it was a pricing game and not a sale? As they say, nothing succeeds like success. As pointed out by others, clothing and vehicle can go a long way toward forming a customer’s opinion. I don’t believe I have to drive a 40k 3/4 ton crew cab (besides, I live in rain country and like to keep my Bosch table saw and miter box dry and safe). Many times, on the matter of bidding, I find it key to go in wanting the bid, but not caring as much about getting it as for having fun. Make them like you, if only for a little while. For me, that means sharing.Finally, if you’re getting all your bids, you’re too low.
Dejure,I really enjoyed reading your last post----only I didn't really get the point."Forget changing everyone else, work on yourself."I have for my lifetime been working on myself; although after all the time I am still not fully complete. Like I said, I try to practice my own preaching. But just like in church, one good sermon begets several very good sermons. I didn't get to the point that I am in neither my skill set nor my opinion base all by myself. I trained under exceptional craftsmen, studied under some of the brightest minds, and kept close friendship with those who value craft like I do.I suppose a major issue of my proposal has to do with the modern outward perception of the field of construction. I have always felt the best and gotten the best work out of clients who perceive the trades as a true professional career, a craft, even an art. On the other hand I have gotten the worst reception from those clients who just see it as a job, a labor, or a task. I chose this career many times over and I want this field to be seen by the majority of the public as being honest/honorable, reliable, respectable, and viable as a professional career. Unfortunately, we as carpenters usually hold this sense of isolationism and/or segregation of craft, ideal, and fortune. There are those who would rather go poor than band together and loose their sense of freedom. I ain't talking union here...I don't need someone making moves for me to nobody's advantage. I'm talking more of a professional organization, trade association. or even craft guild. I always liked guild best as it says to me; "an organization of separate entities who band together in order to better themselves and their focus". I try to run my business now as a "homebuilding guild" where all my subs are most interested in being the best at what they do regardless of cost or profit. So far so good.DC
Before I begin, be advised many things I say are not just for you. My use of written responses, or spoken word is a way of interconnecting the two hemispheres of my brain. Too, I need to put my words to paper, that I not lose them. Once on paper, they are no longer intangible ideas. They become things of substance, with which I can do something.There are many ways one can change himself. Education is but one. Altering one’s expectations of others, or of himself are significant options too. To sum up my interpretation of your posts: You have made a significant investment in education for purposes of improving your ability to move ahead in your chosen field(s) of work; it hasn’t worked as well as you expected; you are having difficulty competing with others; you need change to survive; and, your early posts spoke primarily to, if not only to changing all about you (e.g., everyone else should take the path you did).To reach sound conclusions on other details pertaining to things with which you are dealing, we would need more information. As touched upon in a recent post, we know little of your area. For example, are others doing better, as well, or worse than you? Of those doing better than you, if any, are they well established, older, better equipped, more experienced, flying under the radar, do the demand less than you, are they better financially backed, do they have the same debt burden as you (e.g., education expense, crew cab, small “keep up with the Jones†mansions, etc.)? Finally, if they were to post here, would their personalities show as comparable to yours and do those personalities reflect during the bid, or on the job?These offerings are not intended to belittle. Rather, they are purposed to offer options for consideration. For example, I, for myself, I developed a saying some years ago: “When several people tell you, you need a bath, it’s time to consider the option.†All this is not to say I do not also go by that other saying: “Here, take my advice, I’m not using it.†I, too often, do.Though it might be cliche, the serenity prayer contains sage advice on matters related. It’s purpose is to seek “[t]he serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.â€All things said, what, really, are the solutions to problems introduced on this thread? I’ve been pressing on education of the client, or customer. As well, I pushed to call upon creativity to influence the way things go in such matters. A shinny truck or a Rolls in their drive during the bid may, or may not alter opinion positively. As elsewhere indicated, it can also backfire.There is, at least somewhat, truth to that old saying, if you can’t dazzle them with brilliance. Whether we want to admit it or not, our work is part BS, just like the “practice†of law, medicine and everything else.On the subject of BS, or sales/marketing, if you prefer, consider running some ads for meetings of your small nonprofit association group (open to all interested). By the way, you do not have to seek your representative’s permission to do such (e.g., register and such), though, at some point, it may be wise, and many newspapers and radio station will publish ads for the meetings at no charge. The key is, you can offer a public service, at no charge. Offer to educate the public regarding what you do at your loose knit association meetings. For example, a “Thinking of Building?†group could teach the terms associated with the trade. It could explain why a wall has to be reinforced to add a story or a tile roof and on and on. Bring in a painter, tile layer, plumber, electrician who wants to join the fray. You can use your public presentations to interject things that help those before you understand that building is a science.AGAIN, BE DIFFERENTWhether you realize it or not, I just handed you a golden egg. The [somewhat vague] suggestions I just offered could open doors that compete strongly with very expensive regular advertising.
Dejure,I don't want to offend you but I really enjoy your words and I think you and I could really get along. A shame you are on the other side of the nation or I'd corner you in some bar with a beer and a chat. Good words.While it is true I have invested heavily in my education, I do not ask anyone to follow...it was a difficult road and not fully to fruition. Yet so far I have reaped success, both intellectually and monetarily from doing so. Don't get me wrong, I'm not swamped with business but the new business I get respects my comprehension - many referrals from carpenter friends who must tout me as a trouble shooter or jack of all trades - and the old clients are open to giving me new challenges for my newly proclaimed skills. In all the work has been much more enjoyable. So, I feel like I have made very good decisions for what was available to me. In doing so though, I feel like I stumbled upon a unique perspective of how to be a better carpenter and I want others to have a chance to do what I wasn't able to. I want to aid, somehow, in the creation of a carpentry career that has professional standards and more education and respectability. I don't stand in the place of serenity prayer but between the words of a tibetan monk: "If in a matter you may find a way to create change then there is no reason to worry. And If there is a matter in which you cannot make change then why worry. So why would you worry?" Yet I worry wondering whether this matter will or will not change and if I can help to create change. Should I invest more time in the current trade associations or are they too far politicized? Should I try hawking my ideas to the local high school? Or should I just sit back and complain?So, I come here to communicate with my peers as to what I may do or what pursuit to follow. I have already gathered enough to know my initial stance was inappropriate or at least too far ahead thought. Much insight has already come from you, Dejure.My opinion may go nowhere as some feel it should. But maybe if refined enough it could change opinions of others. I have always believed that the world can change one person at a time and I already have a short list of "guild" followers. But how to make change quicker? And in a profession of so many diligent free spirits? Thanks for the message, I will need to ponder it for awhile.DC
I think the fact that the majority of contractors I see don't get new t'shirts until the budweiser starts another promotion is kind of sad. Many of us are proffessional, but we are grouped with the bums. Have you ever noticed when ever someone's brother gets out of jail you get called for a job? It would be nice to be given a little more credit than what we get now. Most of my clients are great, but some of the people I quote, I have to shake my head.
I think our trade could follow some of other trades, we might even be able to have budgets for esitmators and salesman, so we wouldn't need to try to wear so many hats. While I agree with an earlier post saying how nice it is to do what we do, and everything else... but it's still a hard job, and we should be compensated for it.
Nick, back from the dead, I thought you might have abandoned this thread!I sort of lost sight of those aspects.Yes, we work hard. we labor, sweat, burn, get cut, get dirty. We work in dangerous conditions doing what the average person tries to mimic in a nice clean gym. We are forced to drive fuel sucking trucks full of expensive tools to job sites often far from home. We work 12's when they work 8's and all the while taking the punishments that mother nature dishes out. But when we quote our price to do that, all too often "they" think we are taking them to the cleaners.We should all double our rates!We do deserve it.DC
I guess when it comes down to it, anyone that has lost their job to a factory in china will be upset that their job is in china, Our job doesn't require china we do it cheap enough down here. We should be working towards better livings not away from it. Everyone complains about the extra rules, and paper work ect. Well, I want to be a Doctor, but the man is keeping me down, I can't pass the test? I'm not even allowed to write it..... See what I'm saying would anyone even go to the cheapest Doc in town, if he said he has no use for rules and regulations, 'trust me I have decades of experience, and I know you uncle' I don't know why the same speech would be acceptable when it comes to the place we live. why does it seem like people want to work for less? I don't know, maybe they feel guilty asking for a reasonable compensation for a difficult job.
"Why do people want to work for less"? When I started out, it was doing artsy fartsy woodwork and glass etch stuff. I'd sell a custom etched glass mirror in a custom wood frame for forty-five dollars, and a custom mounted poster for fifteen. The same mirror should have gone for two or three hundred then and, today, around four hundred fifty dollars. It was all about confidence. After all, I wasn't a professional [yet].If I could teach anyone anything, it would be confidence tempered by knowledge and common sense. My confidence level has changed a lot. Now, I would tackle things with few, if any qualms about my ability, and I would success.
Dino,That last post of yours makes my point exactly.There is no need for ipso facto because my reasons are precise.Here, the rest of us are trying to have an intelligent rational and logical conversation yet you simply kick in with ill comment, senseless stereotype, and radical conspiracy theory that is really intangible to the conversation at hand.There's an old saying that everone knows"If you're not part of the solution........"Good DayDC
There is no need for ipso facto because my reasons are precise.
And that is a non-sequitur.
All that time in college and you didn't even learn any Latin? A good command of communication skills is the sine qua non of an educated man. You oughta sue your alma mater.
BTW: If you think I'm enjoying watching you put your foot in your mouth, you are correct. I'm quite patient with ignorance as that is a correctable condition all of us experience at times...but I have a very low tolerance for people who think they are divinely ordained to tell everyone else what to do and how to do it.
Let's turn the coin over, shall we? What would you, as someone with a college degree in architecture, think of a law that obliged you to work as a builder's apprentice for, say 10,000 hours, before you were granted a license to practise architecture? I know a lot of builders who think that would be a great idea--and they think so because a lot of architects have about as good a grasp on reality as you do of basic Latin.
For my own part, I happen to think it would be a good idea for archies to work under a good builder for a year or so before they start drawing things for someone else to build. In fact, I won't build something designed by an architect whose designs show that he doesn't have that real-world experience. I have a perfect right to do that, and I exercise that right (usually) by refusing to bid.
But I am not a government. And I do not think it's a good idea to make my opinion the law of the land. You, apparently, do. That's where the difference between us lies.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino,True..no latin in college for me.Didn't anyone tell you it's a dead language?Though I am not divinely ordained to do anything, I still like to put cards on the table for open discussion and review. Sort of the internet version of cross philosophizing.Quoted "What would you...think of a law that obliged you to work as a builder's apprentice for, say 10,000 hours, before you were granted a license to practise architecture?"I would agree. Part of the reason I went to college for architecture was because I didn't like/agree with architects I worked with. I wanted to know what they knew and feel the opposite is indeed in order.In creation of my ideology that carpenters having more in depth licensure, I think that the profession of architecture is less a hazard to the public than poor carpentry. It is in the building/carpentry phase that the "unbuildable" and "uneconomical" aspect of design comes into question.I haven't made intentions to discredit you, your personal intelligence, nor your ability to build. You obviously have a greater knowledge of latin than I. I simply didn't think your written words were compelling, well written, or creative. You seemed to pair with Blue in proclaiming the dishonesty of the government and other unverifiable conspiracy. I hope that I can someday help to bolster the reputation of this trade we are in. I hope that the carpentry trade can somehow be much better respected by the american public the way other professions are. If we can come together and figure out a method to do so then we may all be able to raise our wage standards. But it cannot be so easy as to just let it go. In the 1000's of years carpenters have been pounding out the will of others but the trade itself has been downtrodden. I am just one who is willing to propose an idea how we , as a profession, might move higher up the ladder. Not union, not politician. Just young - like you enjoy pointing out - and wanting better for others.What is your ideal? Business as usual? Darwin theory? I imagine that you are smart, passionate, and hard working. I imagine that you would have done what was necessary to be a college educated carpenter if that was what was called for by the gov., trade assoc., or other overseeing group. I hope you want your children to be carpenters as I want mine to. But I also hope for a bit of change in the field between now and then. Kudos on the EMT training. I am going to see what I can do to attain that too now. DC
Go read '1984' by George Orwell. When you've finished that, I'll be willing to discuss this with you.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
1984 is almost here Dino. I pity my grandchildren. The great experiment with freedome is almost past.
1984 is almost here Dino.
The sad thing is that these days, everyone seems to have heard of the book but almost no one under the age of 40 has actually read it. It's become a 'pop' icon, and as such, uneducated jackässes feel free to make snide reference to it without having a real understanding of what Orwell was actually talking about.
Hmph. I probably haven't re-read it myself in close to 25 years; I oughta remedy that...think it's in the upstairs library....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
1984? really....1984?Okay, you really are ridiculous.Just when I thought you might have something logical to contribute.now you are back to irrational conspiracy theory.I'm disappointed.DC
What happened to Dinosaurs anyways?? Ironic isn't it. Sharing a fate with the beta tape.
And when it's all said and done, there is the old saying: Why work eight hours a day for someone when you can work eighteen for yourself?"That, of course, does not just mean you can work more and earn more, it also means you have to. At the end of the day, Uncle Sam and his associates want you to spend a few hours doing his paper work.I ran a friend's farm for him some years ago, when he was absent (trial by fire kind of thing). It was an eighteen hour a day job much of the time. Then there was the fact that I showed up at the start of the growing season, so the [federal-Grand Coulee Dam] water was not yet on. Nor was the electric. Though it was a little two hundred acre farm (under irrigation circles), I had to forge his signature on a couple twenty thousand dollar ($20,000.00) checks just to get the water and electric on. Then, there was employee expenses, farm payments, fertilizer (40k at the end of the year), equipment costs and so forth. The farm brought in a lot of money. All but a little bit of it went back out. What a great education I got from that.
The farm brought in a lot of money. All but a little bit of it went back out
That pretty much sums up my business. Which is why it kills me when people start telling me I'm making too much money on their job. I tend to be high bidder, and as a result only get a small percentage of jobs I bid. Meaning most contractors I bid against in this town charge less than I do.
I pay for city and state licensing, worker's comp and liability insurance, accounting service, tool costs, storage rental, advertising in 3 yellow page books, advertising in local classifieds, plus some restaurant guides etc, gas and vehicle upkeep, and then the usual equipment rental costs when needed, subcontractor costs, etc. etc., and all my subs stay paid up on all my jobs. Last two years' tax returns show I brought home $14K per year after overhead costs. Subsistence.
If people only knew!"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Yeah, but it keeps you off the streets.
true, but I'm getting behind on Oprah and Dr. Phil - How is her weight loss coming?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I'm deprived (depraved?). I haven't been hooked up to cable or satellite for over fifteen years. If it doesn't come off a DVD or a VHS, I don't know much about it.
If you got a lawsuit thrown at you tomorrow would you want a licensed lawyer or would you rather have that guy at the local bar who has no formal education but is really good at arguing with everyone? I'm just being comparative.
I'd like to be free to choose whomever I wanted.
I would prefer that they create a licensing board and then make the license optional.
You could probably make a little less money doing a lot less work if you got a job as a drone in some office cubicle somewhere. You wouldn't need to bring any tools to work, and you would get to wear a suit and tie as you commute back and forth from the same place every day at the same time. You would need to get up only early enough to clock in at 9am. For the next 8hrs you'd only be required to sit in the same exact spot staring into a computer screen, tapping a keyboard, and occasionally sneaking a peak at your favorite internet blog. By 5pm you are slightly tired as you clock out. Maybe you'll stop by the gym on the way home, but you can't forget to pick up the dry cleaning. Its not a rough life at all.
At some point, some day, during that monotonous daily commute you'd drive by some construction site with a bunch of underpaid, uneducated, dirty SOB's swingin' hammers and humpin' lumber loads. Real men by anyone's standard.
Then you'd say to yourself, "Man, those guys sure got it made!"
DC
Dreamcatcher, I just read your post. Had a bad end of the week chasing money on completed jobs but your post made my day. We do have it good. Plus, I sure can't listen to Stern in a cubicle.
Thank you, Chuck
Ckorto,I hoped that would cheer you guys up. I really do think of that when I am commuting and I look into people's cars and they look unhappy in their suit and tie sitting in their economy car driving to their offices. Then I see the enormous office skyscrapers stuffed with cubicles stuffed with desks and computers and chairs stuffed with little people in little suits and ties. I know where he is driving to.Then I think about where I am heading, maybe to a house; maybe a beautiful house on a lake maybe in the country ( I work on a lot of lakeside houses). I leisurely drink my morning coffee and listen to my morning radio station. The wind gently blowing and the sun shining as I climb a ladder and know that I am not just a number because I have the skills and the tools to do what the owner of that house cannot do. The best part is that the owner of that house is probably sitting in an office somewhere wishing he was at home enjoying the day. Maybe I will take tomorrow off.DC
Edited 2/9/2009 9:11 am ET by Dreamcatcher
Nick.... I'm in MA and I know EXACTLY what you're talking about. The solution? Probably the next wave of immigrant labor who will work for cheap and build more disposable housing for folks with more disposable income. I used to get frustrated and angry with the old framers who were jaded and bitter about the business. Now I'm one of them. I'm a dieing breed and I know it (and I'm only 35!).... I run a legal crew and my guy's make a living wage. And the numbers just aren't adding up lately. How cheap and how fast? is what I'm asked the most.
I've just been "invited" to bid on an 18 town house (aprox 35,000 sqft) project. I was told.... under no uncertain terms.... that this was going to the lowest bidder. And on the way out the door of the plush office, I was also informed that there's no such thing as "extras or change orders".... the "winning" bidder will make any changes or additional work under the original all inclusive price. And the framing package consists of the framing, house wrap, windows/doors, hardi siding, exterior trim and roofing. They supply all material.... we supply nails. There's nothing there for me to mark up and turn a profit on except the labor.... and I can't do that without paying the guys a substandard wage.
I could do this job.... but not with my own crew. I'd have sub it to low pay/low skill level crews to turn a buck on it. And in my mind.... this is where I'd cross over into being part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
I don't know the answer. I wish I did. If I take this job and do as I've described above.... I will have officially "sold out" and been consumed by "the system". I don't think I'm ready to do that yet. I think I'd rather walk away. But I like eating too.
Brian, taking this opportunity to say hello.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Hi ya Cal! I haven't sniffed around in here much lately. Nice to "see" some old "faces". Much change in the past six months or so?View Image
Yeah, the usual.
Big me-lee and purge back b/4 the election. A brief sabatical for some of the debaters. Now, most all are back and with the economic quake-they forge ahead again.
Other than that?
not much changes.
Make sure you never fall off the map. Always stay in touch.
Keeping the wife happy?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Wife good. Despite the turmoil... we're all doing well over here. Gainfully employed (for the time being) and reasonably happy with 50 hr weeks. The weather stinks... but who's doesn't? We're hitting Aruba the last week of February though.... the thought of it gets me up on Monday mornings. And I've been snowshoeing and hiking a bunch to remain sane and grounded (also open for debate). Been better.... but I've been a whole lot worse too. :)
You and yours? Well I hope? Pitchers and catchers reporting soon babe.
View Image
Edited 2/8/2009 1:41 pm ET by dieselpig
Pitchers and Catchers Report is music to my ears.
We're fine, no golf for a couple months-so there's room for improvement.
Work looks promising into April. Hoping against reason that the trend will continue.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
brian... what's the commute time to Jamestown ?we need some more McCarthy t-shirts anywayMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Commute time is short enough. What's cookin'?View Image
if i ever get the plans from the architect... a small existing gambrel with additions at each endand customers who would like to see real framers..
instead of us remodeler typesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Sounds nice Mike. We should talk then. Lemme know when the architect gets straightened out.View Image
Since I'm mature, I'm not going to say "I told ya so!"
So, this is what it takes for you to re-emerge?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The idea of taking a shot at me will always be too much for Blue to resist! LOL....View Image
Yo, YO!
Good to see ya checking in, you were missed.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Just laying low. This place is like dope. I haven't so much as opened up the forum in months. I responded to a post to me this morning and I've been stalking the place all day. Right back where I started. 'Tis the season..... any break from reality will do right about now. You well? Enough?View Image
Doin Ok for the most part, lost 2 big customers when the stocks sizzled, just snagging small stuff to keep the lights on.
Warm, dry, well fed and loved, that's about all I need to be happy. We hunkered in during the ice storm, and had a pretty decent time of it. Cleaning up, getting out and beating the bushes for what ever needs doing for whoever.
Stick around awhile.(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
It is sad how it's so impossible to wear the tools on a frame and make a business out of it. I can't see anyway to do it. I think the closest thing would be the gig that Shellbuilder is doing.
Yeah, I think Shellbuilder is onto something there.... I had planned to copy his business model to some degree and expand this spring. With the current market it didn't seem like such a good climate to assume any additional exposure. Perhaps another year. I'm seriously thinking about closing the doors... at least temporarily... and at least doing something I really enjoy for awhile. I've got a pretty cool offer hanging out there. I figure if I'm going to work cheap.... it might as well be for a cause that I care about and believe in. We'll see.... I've still got some opportunities out there, a few jobs lined up, and a few bids to work on. Not throwing in the towel yet.... but am preparing myself to if need be.View Image
I'm seriously thinking about closing the doors... at least temporarily... and at least doing something I really enjoy for awhile. I've got a pretty cool offer hanging out there. I figure if I'm going to work cheap.... it might as well be for a cause that I care about and believe in.
Wow, I didn't think it was that bad for you, given that you've been working steady. Prices must really be bad.
I'm going to guess that you've delayed cutting your labor costs and that you've tried to be loyal to your guys.
For years, I've tried to figure a way that a guy could operate one frame crew and do what he loves to do and stay profitable. I've investigated every way possible and the conclusion is that it's impossible LOL! In my best years, I doubt that I really had a "profit". When I was doing my best, in terms of cashflow, it would always be shortlived and something would scuttle the "gravy train". It's just a sad reality.
If you can find something that you are passionate in another life, I'd jump on it.
It's not "that bad" yet Blue... I'm just trying to read the writing on the wall. Like I said... there's still work coming in so I'm not going anywhere just yet. I guess my point was that if and when I can't do it "my way" (fair price, fair wages) then I probably won't do it anymore.
I don't believe that it's "impossible" to run a crew the right way.... shoot I've done a pretty good job of it for the past 5 years. I do think it might become impossible to do it in this market though. But in a good market... it can certainly be done.View Image
Actually, it was the argument on construction calculators...but then I remembered...I don't care....to each his own LOL.
I've noticed that the Midwest has been cold this year. I was told that MI had it's coldest year since the 1800's. How Toledo doing?
Just as you'd expect 10 miles south of Mi. would be. The snow from the beginning of Jan (bout 20 inches) is just now melting with our last couple days above freezing. Deer and dog poop appears.
How's that golf game coming along? We can only make believe in a dome. A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Cal, I had to stop goofing around with the golf game. I just don't have the time. And I don't see any break anytime soon. So...it'll have to wait another year..maybe less if things go right somewhere...
At least I'm warm though LOL.
Jim
Welcome back.
I see that this thread is old, but this is the 1st time I have seen you back since the purge.
I missed you around here.
Rich
Brian,
Simple rule. Charge your price.
I know that does not do much in the face of the housing market now but nonetheless, stick to what you know you are worth. I assume you don't charge exorbant rates... and there is no reason to charge less than a reasonable rate, unless things are so slow that you simply need to keep guys busy... but at no profit, you can't keep thatgame plan for long.
I get a gut feeling that this project you mention will be a nightmare for you. no charges for additional work or changes? that is absurd. Hey Brian, we're going to add another floor... thanks for the all-inclusive price. And when you are working for peanuts and not getting paid, it hurts even worse. It might be cheaper to stay home.
The upside to these downturns is that they thin the herd... leaving the strongest to carry on.
<!----><!----><!---->
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
Take life as a test and shoot for a better score each day. Matt Garcia
It's so easy to get into and go out of business in this trade that "thinning the herd" doesn't happen. They all jump right back in ASAP.
dieselpig.
When you are working in a saturated market that is the standard question you will always be asked..
Your job has devolved into a commodity..
Now you need to figure out a solution that you find acceptable..
There's a book called what color is your parachute. In that book they tell people that the average worker will hold 18 jobs in their life and switch careers completely 7 times..
If you still like the thrill of building homes for people look at alterantives.. Timberframe, SIP's, ICF's, Adobe, straw bale, etc..
There at least you remove yourself from the commodity and become more of an artisan.. Being an artisan is a good thing because if you do superb work you are treated like a name like Van Gogh or Picasso etc..
Look at timberframing for example.. Ted Benson gets a premium for the houses he builds because he is Ted Benson..
If your experiance is better rewarded as a manager become that or an accountant become that..
Think of what you do extremely well and what rewards you and ignore the rest..
Frankly home building has passed it's peak not to return to another peak for about 20 years or more..
If you work to make money rather than for the pleasure of working in a particular field then the ship has left the dock but you may still be able to jump overboard and swim to shore..
Brian,
I think you and I had a discussion about this some time ago.
At the time my father, who works for a large developer that concentrates primarily on high density or high rise residential, was looking for someone who could frame a house with a bastard hip roof for one of the big bosses at his company.
The company bean counters, despite my fathers argument that they had no idea what they were talking about? Had convinced the guy that $5.15 a sq ft was more than generous to frame a 4000 sq ft two story with 6 bastard hips.
But when they tasked dad with finding a framer? Anyone who would do it for that price had no clue as to how to frame the roof. None of the 20-25 crews they normally used had a clue.
It got to the point where I was aksed to take leave and cut and lay out the roof and use the other crew's labor, including their forman, to frame just the roof.
They weren't even willing to pay what I wanted per day for that.
The big companies like his work backwards. They determine what they can sell and for how much. Then they determine what they and their investors wish to make as profit, THEN they divide up what's left into slices for the trades.
AND some poor fool has to figure out how to put it up for that.
And once he's done that? No deviation! No Change Orders or extras. That's all on you.
ANd you're right.........you won't get it done paying a living wage. And, you'll be giving away a fair amount of labor too.
I cringe whenever my dad needs a reference of someone who can do something out of the ordinary for him. He know's what it's worth, but he isn't the guy who sets the numbers.
Last time it was stairs. The guy I gave him, the cheapest shop I ever installed for? Was 150% above his normal stair guy for the basic work.
Watch the big guys. The plan is to take away the skill. Panels, trusses, modules and lower labor prices.
Prices never really recovered from the late 80's early 90's. Then they took a hit in 2000 and never fully recovered. And, they're gonna take another hit this time.
The high end labor market always recovers a little better than the rest, but even it is slipping away from a living wage.
I know it sucks to think about closing up shop. But sometimes ya gotta preserve what you do have so that you can regroup and return on the other side.
And each time they remain just a little depressed from last time.
Robert,
I think your evaluation is pretty much spot on.View Image
Robert is dead on. I agree.
I used to make good money working on the "harder" houses. Now, they are just another commondity. Before I left MI, I walked out of dozens of high end houses where they expected them to be built for production numbers. There just wasn't anyways to make it work.
Heres a little story about the big corporations idea of fair. We built a 2500 production home and made decent money on it. A month later the super calls and says we forgot to put a two story bay on it. Frank went out and showed him our plans that didn't have the bay. The super told us that the plans are wrong and we have to put it on. We agree to do it and take the normal rate, even thought it's a retro, which takes twice as long.
We put the bay on, send the invoice and naturally, we don't get paid.
A month later the super calls up and says "the bay wasn't supposed to be on after all...you'll have to come and take it off." Franks tells him..."okay, just pay the bill and we'll be out there tomorrow." The super says, no...you have to go out there and take it off even if you haven't been paid. Frank refuses.
The super says "if you don't come out to take it off, we'll hire the other crew in the sub and backcharge you.". Frank says he isn't coming out there to take it off until he's paid.
The super hires the other crew and then backcharges us and takes the money out of another check that is due us.
End of story: we never got paid and they never re-imbursed us for the backcharge. When we left them, they were using mostly Hispanic framers who were systematically butchering up job after job....but they were cheap!
That's the "framing" business.
edit: I forgot to mention that things have changed a lot since I started in the trades. They used to burn those houses to the ground when they didn't get paid.
Edited 2/9/2009 7:55 pm ET by jimAKAblue
It's kind of sad the state of things now. I'm getting further and further into debt every month. I build quality homes, the extra time I used to have to finesse things I'm finding don't seem to pay the bills. Do I really have to become a hack? I even tried working with a internet lead company, didn't work well at all. I have signed up to one called homestars.com where my customers rate me, I do get some calls from that. But by and large it just seems like ther is no room for a good job anymore. I was taught by my grandfather and it's sad to see things like this.
Nick try 30yrs on the body, about then you wonder just how you will, if ever retire.As for making real money, here in BC other than Vancouver you go to camp, work long hrs, miss the family, but get good pay. After the condo nightmare, a builder had to guarantee the house for 10 yrs????? Plus take a building coarse.
People don`t mind paying a plumper or sparky 55-65 per hr, but if a "carpenter" wants 25 30, they fall down.
At one time long ago the ansewer was unions, but they have for the most part shot them selfs in the foot.
You`ve done 15yrs so there is something in this trade you like, stay the coarse man
I can relate to all of that. My body now is saying what the hell man. I have been doing it 20 years and I am wondering what I can do for another career, but what. I love your neck of the woods. Built a school in Hazelton.
I've been speaking to some 'handymen' they bill out at around 60. I personally bill at 45 to h.o's 35 to guys I get more work from. I think people will pay a plumber 55-60 because they are afraid to try it on their own. A carpenter, is not a tough thing to be. Anyone with a hatch back, a tape, hammer and a few bent nails qualifies. You wouldn't believe the ammount of times I see houses with baseboards installed around doors, backwards no less, nails bent over, or not set, hammer marks everywhere. I saw a deck last year I wouldn't let a squirrel walk across. I'm finally going to write my carpentry exam, I should have done it a decade ago but you know, there was really no reason to. I'm going to eventually go to teachers college. I would hope it will allow me to teach teens, maybe I can influence someone who will do great things... or just be a class a few kids really like
NOTE: I don't want this to turn into a union/non-union p***ing match.
I think the reason people pay us plumbers is cause they don't have much choice and that is because of the UA.
Up here you have to be a journeyman to be a plumber and if you are a journeyman you can go work industrial and make real good coin.
As a result, non union shops have to pay going rate just to keep employees.
Around here, the other trade unions don't have the same influence, although the tin bangers are close.
Did apprenticeship via a union company and spent many years as a member.Now live in a small town "up here" and the need to stay on was not there, plus other reasons.
Ok no choice,......... A leak happens, need plumber to fix, rate $65hr no problem
Damage from leak needs a carpenter to fix rate $65hr problem.
Both are say 2hrs to fix.
Both are ticketed journeymen, one is no better than the other.But the plumber will be working right away.And the carpenter will be talking money matters with the home owner.
It`s just the way it is, nothing against the other trades. But we`ve put in our time as well.
On new construction we have to be aware of what the sub trades are doing or want to do.Not "all" but most of the subs don`t care much what they do to our work.
Must say working in a small town does make a big difference, everyone knows the other guy on the job,and around town.
Interesting thread Nick put up. My ansewer overall, get what you can while the getting is good.
maybe if the gov't was to regulate trade work the way they regulate dr's we could breath a little easier.
They already do, at least in this province. In Québec, damn near every trade is regulated. There was a serious proposition a few years back to require busboys in restaurants to obtain a 'carte de competence'. This is a good thing??
And if you lived in Ottawa instead of Toronto, you'd know about how contentious the so-called inter-provincial trade licensing 'agreement' is--Quebec carps without cards going across to obtain Ontario cards so they can work in Quebec, and Ontario carps getting threatened with arrest just for driving their work truck (with company name on it) across the river to Hull to buy a TV or whatever....
You want the government to do what, exactly? Regulate how much you can charge and prevent anyone else from charging less? Say who may work and who may not? Dictate what you may do and what you may not do? Sure would simplify life.
Maybe the government should take over sales, too. What the hell, we all hate doing sales, right? Biggest PITA in the business. If the government took that over, life would be wonderful. Anyone who wants a house built or remodeled simply calls 1-800-CANBUILD and the goverment will assign them a contrator at a fixed price per square foot determined by Parliament. Best of all, the HO wouldn't even have to pay! The cost would be taken out of his taxes automatically. Just like health care!
Hell, if we're lucky, the waiting time to get yer house built won't be any longer than waiting time to get a bone scan or MRI
Wow. 'Way cool. The possibilities are endless....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
The reason for regulation would be qualified people working on your house, electricians are certified and self regulating so is hvac. I'm not saying the gov't would 'take over', I'm saying we need some rules in place. I have an example of some work performed by a 'contractor' he found a family, grandma, grandpa, mom, dad and two kids all in the same house. He charged them for a separate entrance to their basement, 15,000. He dug a hole, laid a crude foundation, no weepers, no gravel ect. best of all he did not over dig by 2 ft. (for access to waterproof) he only went 6 inches. When asked about water proofing he told the homeowners that they would have to get rid of the dirt in the way (the same dirt he put there) he will not come back until fixed. The block wall he did build is almost 6 inches out of level. THE DOOR INTO THE BASEMENT ISN'T EVEN INSTALLED, he tacked it in place, the 12x12 hole above the door, wide open, no lock set, nothing.
If this guy was to have a licencse, he would have an officer or auditor come and assess his work, if it was not up to par he could have his lic. suspended or on probabation or stripped. Just like you would with sparky's or hvac. If a house burns down because of the wiring and you didn't have it done by an electrian guess what happens? I don't know how you could have come to think that I meant at all that the gov't would socialize contractors, thats stupid. I would like to see some regulation, thats all, I don't think that a tax paying, comp paying contractor shoud have to contend with competition that doesn't pay either and will work for cash enabling their price to be 1/3 lower. We all drive on the same roads, we all use the medical system, we have to pay tax.
I know things are to legislated where you are but thats just people that were worried about losing their jobs to other people fighting over something stupid, if an english guy want to work in q.c for god knows what reason he should be allowed.......IF he's qualified.
There is so much wrong with that point of view I could write a book in response...but that book's already been written at least a couple of hundred times. Problem is, people who think Government should fix everything they think is wrong with the world won't read it.
I do professional design-build and remod work at a high level. I charge about 50-65% of the rates charged by most of the GC's in this area for carded carps who do much poorer work than I do...and I can say that with pride because I have a .001% callback rate. My customers are loyal to me and refer me to their friends and neighbours. I make a fair profit, and I pay my guys union scale or better.
But I don't have a license, and I am primarily self-taught. So according to you I shouldn't be allowed to work? Well, pal, you can put that where the sun never shines.
If you're so hot on government regulation, why don't you just move here? The Quebec government already does exactly what you want: complete trades licensing--carps, sparkies, plumbers, 'rockers, tapers, painters, GC's, even helpers pushing idiot sticks have to have a 'competence card'!
But the construction commission that the government set up to handle licensing is so corrupt that 80% of all residential construction in this province is done by unlicensed, illegal contractors working under the table.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I have read the posts with some interest. The ones I laugh at the most are the ones requiring gov licensing.
I live in NY state where there are no statewide licensing laws. Amazing isn't it! Good contractors make a good living because this business tends to drive the bad ones out. there are exceptions, but I believe I read that over 90% of all business fail in the first 5 years. That takes care of a lot of the hacks.
We do have some laws that are periodically enforced by the state. They have to do with contracts. you are not allowed to work without one on jobs of more than $500.
Another one that trips up the hacks is the state law that requires all deposits to be earned before you can deposit them in regular business accounts. All deposits have to go into escrow.
The other thing that the state attorney general has been doing is charging contractors who take deposits and don't do the work with fraud. There has been cases where people have gone to jail.
Licensing to me is a way for state governments to make money, pure and simple.
We at one time, according to oldtimers had licensing laws, but were ignored so much they were eliminated.
One protection afforded a homepowner now is a state requirement for a permit to be pulled, a contractor must show proof of insurance.
It is late for me and I am sure I am forgetting somethings, but if I remember I will repost!
Edited 2/11/2009 11:02 pm ET by frammer52
why would any job require a lic. then?
Building permit? Is that what you are referring to?
NYS is confusing because in certain juristrictions there is licensing required for different trades. The way it was explained to me was that the unions wanted to limit competition as much as possible.
That being said, I prefer to hire the licensed plummer and electrician, even though it is not required in all areas.
What I am suggesting is that I think idealy there would be some sort of standard qualification for carpernters, nothing crazy or impossible for a qualified carpenter to obtain, but something. It just seems like carpenters have been working against ourselves by not insisting on some sort certification process. If it works for plumbers, and electricians why it should work for us too. I don't want to get into union non union debates, work where you want.
Idealy having this proposed lic. would be required to pull permits, you would have a number, I would have a number. If I screw up I can lose my lic. just like a 'real' trade. Us not having this keeps us in the stone ages.
I agree with you, I will only hire lic. plumbers and sparkies. I hope eventually home owners will only hire lic. carpenters.
I don't like licensing of any kind. It in most instances reduces competition. I am a competitor. I don't need an artificial hindrance to being in business to compete! That is crazy talk! Compete against the hacks, you will win in the long run. In the short run they can compete, but not when they find out their business plans are unworkable!!!!
frammer52,
How do we know you aren't a hack yourself? How does a homeowner know the person in front of her isn't a hack?
maybe she got a referral from another home owner who liked the hack because he gave her dog snacks?
Or cleaned up well after his hack job.
OR went to the same church. etc..
By allowing unlimited competition there is no standard or regulatory body that overviews the work.. please don't tell me the building inspectors do that.. some of them are hacks who wanted a steady pay check and benefits.
When the average no experience with contractors person is trying to judge various contractors the only thing they can do is rely on what they know,, which is 2nd grade math. This proposal is less than that proposal which drives everyone to the cheapest! Not necessarily the best but the cheapest.
That impacts your income and profit..!!!
By allowing unlimited competition there is no standard or regulatory body that overviews the work.. please don't tell me the building inspectors do that.. some of them are hacks who wanted a steady pay check and benefits
Unlimited competion weeds out the baad business people in no time. These are the people that tend to be the hacks.
Artificial limits to competition only serve to artificially raise prices, so that people that should make a living doing something else survives.
I am against the gov setting up artificial barriers ie. licenses, that have nothing to do with whether a person is good or not. Every time gov gets involved in something like this, there are unintended consequences, what would you expect them to be in this case?
Weeds them out how? and what does it do in the mean time to those being fleeced?
So ABC construction is pretty well accepted as a hack.. Hmmm. the owner simply changes the name to Reliable building company and starts up again. Fleecing more people..
Meanwhile the whole industry is tarred by one brush..
I note that you choose to ignore the real question, how do we know you aren't a hack? (note: not a personal attack simply a point of how difficult it is to verify a persons bonafides).
Example: I go and take pictures of some nicely done buildings. Then I list family and friends as owners of those homes and invite you to call them..
Hmmm, how will anyone ever know?
In your wonderful world of deregulation. Will you at least admit some regulations are needed?
Which side of the road should we drive on?
What are the rules regarding stop signs and lights etc..
In your wonderful world of deregulation. Will you at least admit some regulations are needed?
They aren't needed.
There are city inspections and there are civil courts. The consumer already has two levels of protection beyond his own ability to investigate.
Licensing puts the power into the suit's hands and takes it away from the guy in the mud. If you like the current system of paper pushing builders...then I guess you should demand more of it.
Thank you. And wages stay low because of it.
Whoever holds the money makes the rules about wages. The suits get the power because they know how to get the paper, then they lower the wages of the guys in the mud...well...because they can!
License gets rid of the poor, not the bad.
Where I am, I pay 11% of my employees gross in wsib. I also have to pay for 2 million liability ins. Also I have to match all of the tax deductions my employee pays. Then after that I'm still paying tax on the money I collect from the job. If I didn't pay any of that, I could drop my costs by 1/3. I'm competing with those guys, it's not lack of skill, or salemanship, it's hard to compete like that . I quoted a basement at 30,000. This was 900 sq. ft. soundproofed, new 3 pc bath, stairs to basement and a subfloor suitable for engineered wood. I was underbid by 10,000 by a chinese guy. So when I talk about licensing I would also like to see proof that this guy is taxes. He would not get a clearance without proof. The chinese guy could get a lic. but he would be on the radar. I know that it's being able to do what you want and for who you want that every one is afraid of losing. And I know that people are concerned about bringing in a regulatory body. If you are a good contractor you would have no problems and probably more work.
Where are you? You should fill out your profile. A good framer around here can get about $18-20 per hour some places, but the majority of jobs pay 12-15 per. Yes, I know the drill on ins./taxes/ etc. Already paying all that.
I'm in Toronto, I have to work as hard after work to stay busy as I do at work. It was absolutely insane here 5 years ago, it's really slowed down. We can stay busy... ish. What I mean to say is that none of the suppliers are being paid, so in turn they don't send material. So the job we waited a week for just got put off another week. No one is paying anyone. Part of the reason for my post was that I can't even afford to fix the tools I need to do my jobs anymore. I can't buy new ones to make other jobs more profitable. Now would be the best time to advertise, only I can't afford to. Everyone has my money, even if I got it all tomorrow it wouldn't get me to far. Currently trying to keep using air tools, between my 3 broken compressors one sort of works for somethings, the electric one for others and sometims the other one will fire up for a minute or two.
They can lower wages because people are not united to balance the power of money out..
Remember all power corrupts but absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Without the Unions America wouldn't have a middle class. The middle class is where most of us earn our income from.. as the middle class is being erroded by lack of unions this nation suffers accordingly..
No regulations?
Nonsense.. drive down the wrong way on a freeway somethime and tell me that regulations aren't needed..
You may not understand or even like some regulations but they are important for a civilized society to co-exist
you are misinterpreting me.
There are laws needed but there are many regulations that are redundant and not necessary. Each case needs to be debated specifically.
For sure, there is no need for regulating builders with licenses and certainly not carpenters.
You know in all the years I sold to carpenters I never once met one who didn't think he did a great job. (I was tactful enough to not point out the obvious flaws I saw)
My point is there is absolutely no way for anyone to judge the skill of their work.
Even they don't know.
But frankly some of the Russian Illegals I sold to way out did the work performed by most crews.. Even some of the hispanic illegals did better work than Americans with decades of experiance.
Regulations force standardization and standards can be changed and improved as required.
With regard to having the building inspectors do the regulating, Minnesota is in what is called tornado alley. The regulations are on the books requiring more than toenailing of roof rafters.. In fact the minimum legal roof connection is a Simpson H3 and that only barely..
In all that time I saw maybe one home in 500 use any connector at all. Yet they all passed inspection!
With regard to having the building inspectors do the regulating, Minnesota is in what is called tornado alley. The regulations are on the books requiring more than toenailing of roof rafters.. In fact the minimum legal roof connection is a Simpson H3 and that only barely..
In all that time I saw maybe one home in 500 use any connector at all. Yet they all passed inspection!
YOu are makinga great case for enforcement of zoning and building laws.
So, two layers of regulations still haven't forced the carpenter to put hangers on but you think a license will?
How bout this...just have the inspectors red tag the job without hangers.
Too simple? I guess we need more reams of regulations to wade through.
Here in Austin, the city inspecters want to see an engineer's report regarding the foundation and framing integrity. Do you really think it matter if the illegals have a carpenter's license or not? Isn't an engineer report and a city inspection enough?
If those two inpsections aren't enough to calm your fear about someone like me doing framing without a license, maybe we should have Obama inspect every job and cut out all the middle men.
Blue,
this isn't about well skilled people who do the right thing..
This is and should be a way to prevent unqualified people from doing the wrong thing..
Do you know why whiskey makers make so much money? I mean the skill required to make booze is pretty minimal. The ingrediants are common..
Look at the price of Jack Daniels, now look at the cost of the ingrediants. There is pretty massive profit there isn't there? Look at what Budwieser just sold for..
Regulations! Rules, Licenses!
Fight them all you want but if you know how to use them you can get richer than your wildest dreams..
"Fight them all you want but if you know how to use them you can get richer than your wildest dreams.. "
Spoken like a true burecrat!
At my age, I don't care. In my youth, I just wanted to build stuff and the paper license did nothing to further the consumers cause. I got my first builders license in 1983. I thougt it was worthless then and think it's more worthless now.
Blue those who know how, succeed, those who don't may work but they will never succeed..
I hate paperwork pobably more than you do.. So I shouldn't be the one saying this. When I worked at most of my jobs paperwork was always subpar. In fact 2 of the jobs I was let go from substandard paperwork was listed as the reason.. (the real reason was new management wanted sales staff loyal to them because I was either the top salesman or the 2nd to the top)
The real ironic part was that the worst salesman was also best at paperwork and he lasted a whole year longer than I did..
That's the prime reason I don't own my own business.
Anyway one of the things I found out is the most profitable business were the ones most protected by licenses and regulation..
Those companies working in the refineries made a fortune compared to the companies building houses.. Companies providing services to city, county, and state buyers were much more profitable than the ones selling to private contractors..
We had a deal where we sold the airport commision equipment to clean the runways..
It was a monthy rental fee so tiny that nobody could compete.. But we were allowed to bill for hours and any damage in the small print..
We gave them new equipment every fall and sold it every spring and summer.. I can't tell you how profitable that deal was.. Yet everybody involved felt they got the worlds best deal!
Your business is worth nothing when you retire simply because you are the business.. You haven't found a niche to succeed.
There are many definitions of success and many business models to choose from. As Blue said, some of us just want to build stuff.We don't all feel the need to create a legacy or a business empire.Let some of the other guys do that.John
It gets hard to build stuff when you are spending all of your time with and auditor that didn't like the way you filed out your forms. It would be nice to be able to hire a business manager to make sure that you are profitable, and that bills are being paid, maybe even have a sales guy to sell for you so you don't have to spend your nights and weekends driving an hour from home to find someone looking for the lowest price on a the installation of a closet organizer. I would love to stop having to wear so many hats. I would very much like to spend my time worrying about how to make my next job look amazing, than worrying about when the repo depot will come and take my truck
":It gets hard to build stuff when you are spending all of your time...."All I hear from architects is how hard it is to design stuff when you gotta jump through all the government hoops......Not really.You guys are like a bunch of little children going to get a flu shot. The process would be much easier than you are all making it out to be.So, you'd have to go to school....as if most carpenters don't need a better education already (especially since a huge amount of them are highschool or college drop outs anyway)You'd have to take an exam...gotta do that already in most states. You'd have to apprentice for awhile....I suppose you learned everything about construction all by yourself?And what if you had to have continued education. one weekend a year, you gotta read a few pages out of a book about new building methods......I suppose you just pick up Fine Homebuilding to look at the pictures.That's it. That's the plan, and that's what architects go through. Does it really sound that difficult or do you guys just not want to accept such a plan because it's not your own? Or what? I really don't understand why such opposition.DC
How many states are you licensed in, and which states do you work in that do not require license?
My problem is a paper license is junk. A GC I know knows zero about building, yet because he has money, he just takes a class and gets a license. Less than 5 grand.
He also has an adjusters license, and appraisers license, knows little about either.
Catfish,"My problem is a paper license is junk....."I know a dozen or so "GC's" who know little to nothing about building - some I met in the building license workshop. I agree a "paper license" as we know it today is junk. The bar needs to be raised to make the license worth it's ink."yet because he has money"Are you saying he bought his license? I have never heard of anyone having enough money to do so, though I can bet there have been many to have paid to keep their license after infraction. I took a weekend workshop and borrowed a book to study but realized that I didn't have to since the test was so basic. I think I paid $100 for the workshop and the book was free.DC
The books required on the test are about $1500, the fee for the test $250, the class he took that tabbed the books $750. A minimum account balance, county license in each county he plans on working. A corporation, about $1000 depending on complexity.
That sounds like buying it to me. Thats not even the insurance or anything else. Anything above $5000 or so puts it out of reach for most carpenters.
Catfish,Wow, I didn't know thatUnfortunately, I wouldn't be proposing lowering the cost either. But at least I should hope to say you'd get more for your money. $1500 for books? I bet in all my years in school I have a total of $700 or so. But that's in six years of upper level education. $250 for a test is right - not fair! - but the going rate. $750 for a class? A bit high. Like I said, the workshop I took (which is not required) was only $100. On the other hand, my classes at UM were about $750 per credit hour. A degree in architecture runs about $100,000.I also didn't know they require a corporation down there; and at a cost of $1k you say. That does stink. I suspect what they are attempting to do is to make you so invested in it that you are in it for the long run....which I can sort of understand. One of my gripes are these UAW people up here who retire or take a buyout then go into carpentry. They don't need the money, just something to pass the time. They have nothing invested in this business. Just need to test and get a DBA and a little ins. to be legal here. They got a check every week coming from Ford or GM and they got full health and life bennies, they don't care if they lose money on their carpentry venture.Sounds like FLA's got it a little screwy, but in my very honest opinion that is only because the carpenters have never organized well to fight it. I based my proposal on the AIA because it is a closely related field and it has the same possibility. What we as carpenters have to do is unite, create self regulation, make a constitution of standards, and lobby to have our mandates made state law. If you read the history of NAAB and the AIA you might be able to better understand what I'm saying.DC
Catfish,I just googled FLA licensing and found this:"To qualify for the examination you must be at least 18 years old. You must also meet one of the following requirements:Four year construction-related degree from an accredited college (equivalent to three years experience) and one year proven related experience
One year of experience as a foreman and not less than three years of credits for any accredited college-level courses
One year experience as a workman, one year proven experience as a foreman, and two years of credits for any accredited college level courses
Two years experience as a workman, one year experience as a foreman, and one year of credits for any accredited college level courses
Four years experience as a workman or foreman of which at least one year must have been as a foreman
Holding an active certified or registered Florida contractor's license"What's the deal there? Why didn't you mention that?That would make it similar to what I had proposed....but it sounds like it's not working.
Maybe if it isn't working it's because it is too much in the sole hands of the FLA gov.
Better if it's in the hands of the trade organizations like NAHB or NARI or a new established council that oversees all aspects of carpentry.DC
I didn't mention it abecause I don't keep all the quals right in front of me. How do you get a license without any of those qualifications? You can't get a license without those quals, but it happens all the time. They don't check that ####.
None of that works anywhere, never has never will.
BTW, roofing without a license in FL is a felony.
Edited 2/16/2009 1:10 pm ET by catfish
Thats whaat NAHB wants for FL.
as if most carpenters don't need a better education already
You are a fool, if you believe that. I can take and introduce you to lots of very adequate carpenters, that haven't got a high school diploma. Why are you trying to make this business into something it isn't?
There has to be a place for people that don't want a formal education in the US, to work and provide a living for themselves and their families.
he just wants people he can pay like illegals because he has a license, now he thinks everyone in the country should have one.
I am trying to figure out him and he is beyond belief. I wonder if this is some kind of a joke?
Has anyone ever corresponded with this person before?
I agree Frammer. He wants carpenter to take paper tests when the actual test is out there in the field. Maybe if he'd start advocating for the government to go into the houses and look at the finished carpentry projects...he'd be onto something.
OH WAIT! The government already inspects the houses! So, I guess the "license" should automatically be granted if the carpenter can pass a frame inspection.
Okay...I'll accept licensing like that. If I can get a green tag, I'm a licensed carpenter. If I get a red tag, I get another shot at getting it right until I get a green tag...Then I can call myself a carpenter.
Incidently, I believe that every trade should be subject to the same rules. There aint nothing special about any of them.
Frammer,I'm a fool? LOL! I hope Frammer is your last name and not your profession."I can take and introduce you to lots of very adequate carpenters, that haven't got a high school diploma"I'll see your diploma-less carpenters and raise you ten times as many carpenters WITH a high school diploma that are inadequate carpenters. I don't really care either way, I'm not trying to make the point that a high school diploma makes for a great carpenter. My point is towards ensuring that there is some form of standardized education, training, and examination before allowing someone to be a carpenter. I made reference to high school drop outs because that is a general public stigma that is applied to carpenters sometimes (ie: drop outs, druggies, drunks, migrants, hacks, etc). Not a huge amount of respect from the general population, the going rates are evidence."There has to be a place for people that don't want a formal education..."I do hear your point and I am trying to rationalize it, but I can only think to ask "why?".
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that every fry cook at McD's needs a bachelors degree. But I believe that every american should want and have a HS diploma. I can see that you feel like carpentry is the best "fall back" career but I simply disagree. I don't want people to think of carpentry as a fall back. The military is also a fall back. Even they require a GED and examination before they let you get shot.There's got to be some decent, non-life threatening jobs out there for the uneducated. I don't think it should be carpentry though. Lawnmowing, housecleaning, waiting, actor, singer, insurance agent....lot of things.DC
hope Frammer is your last name and not your profession
Why because it is deliberatly spelled wrong? Little twists to get a screen name!
Back to your non arguement.
I would like to point out the discussion from Dinascor. He actually lives and works in a sytem like what you are proposing. Instead of looking at it and realising that what you are proposing is unworkable, you ignore his response and keep trying to start a flame war.
I guarentee there are as many "good" carpenters and contractors where I live as in the most stringest of licensing states. In fact, there may be more because our trade as a rule hates paperwork.
do hear your point and I am trying to rationalize it, but I can only think to ask "why?".Don't get me wrong, I don't think that every fry cook at McD's needs a bachelors degree. But I believe that every american should want and have a HS diploma. I can see that you feel like carpentry is the best "fall back" career but I simply disagree. I don't want people to think of carpentry as a fall back. The military is also a fall back. Even they require a GED and examination before they let you get shot
You are the one saying it is a "fall back" not me. Reread what has been written.
Frammer,Okay, sorry for the dig on your name....but I have felt bad for you for a long time - some people around here can't spell worth a darn.Yes, I have been reading Dino's posts but he just keeps talking about how the government is corrupt and out to screw everyone, there isn't logic to that. It cannot be substantiated and doesn't make for reasonable discussion. It would be like me saying "I think framers are drunks so you must be a drunk", it doesn't hold water. But I have been saying that the AIA has a working system, not a lot of paperwork, higher wages, less gov. interaction. Who's said anything to do with that. Keep in mind that I'm not saying all architects are smart...but at least I can be assured they all have a certain level of education and yesterday they weren't a line worker at Chrysler. Yes, I am the one calling carpentry a fall back career. I didn't mean to put those words in your mouth. I just wanted to point out some of the paradigms of the industry that I would hope new licensing could put us past.I agree NY probably has more good carpenters than other states. But it's not just about being good. That would be like saying "licensed carpenters shouldn't need to file for permits, they already have licenses why should their work be inspected". The guys you're talking about are good carpenters, but they should still have to go to school to assure the public that they have a certain level of standardized carpentry knowledge. Here's another example using myself. I have done a lot of things and most people see me as a well rounded professional, my woodwork is high quality. I would like to say that I fall into the category you have described as a "good" carpenter. But up until this past year, I have never laid block. I felt like a moron trying to use a trowel. My work ended up good enough for a foundation wall but would not pass as an above grade wall that is seen. Maybe if there was a school for carpenters, I would have been trained in block. Does that make sense?DC
"Maybe if there was a school for carpenters, I would have been trained in block. "
They don't teach laying block in carpenter school. That is taught in mason school.
I did get a welding class when I went through the union sponsored carpenter school. If my memory serves me correct, we were taught welding because of the carpenters that worked on the pilings.
I really don't understand why such opposition
Simple...it's a question of living free or living in a society controlled by the government. I prefer to live free. Thats what America was all about. Its sad to see so many people embracing a society that is...well...socialist!
"You guys are like a bunch of little children going to get a flu shot. The process would be much easier than you are all making it out to be."
I'm against what you're proposing, not because I think it will be too much of a pain or because I would have to go to school (I already have), but because I think it will not work.
It seems to me that you believe that if we could thin the carpenter herd a bit we would all be able to charge 50% more and everyone would go home happier. The problem that I see is that there are a lot of jobs that wouldn't happen if the labor cost increased significantly.
Sure, if someone has a roof leak for long enough they are likely going to call a roofer. But there's some built-in cabinets that I wouldn't have been paid to build if the cost was significantly more. The customer didn't "need" the cabinets, and if they did they could have gone to Ikea and gotten an inferior product for a lot less money.
And the black market would expand to fill in the void between a licensed carpenter and Ikea.
So who wins?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"As Blue said, some of us just want to build stuff."it's like saying "I just want to drill out people's cavities, why should I have to have a license or education to do that?" does that sound okay john and blue?Go home and build birdhouses.DC
I just want to drill out people's cavities, why should I have to have a license or education to do that.
Let the buyer beware.
I'm okay with letting unlicensed "dentists" drill as long as they disclose the fact. If I want to go to a dentist that is self taught and drills for cheaper, why should you have to right to deny me my desires? Who died and make you king?
All you want to do is build stuff? Then don't be a busness owner! Work for someone who will provide you with the work you seek to fullfil yourselves..
A business owner needs to both understand the job and understand competition. Plus he needs to understand the people who hire him and how to deal with them in a fair but reasonable manner. Plus deal with bankers and a dozen other sorts of people.
In fact if you come on this website to find out what it costs to build an average house you will quickly find there is no set answer.
That's because competition and other factors cause all home construction to be custom.. even if it's exactly like 9 others recently built.. (at least that's the way it's approached by the people who respond to this web site)
Frammer52,I think you are suffering from a case of severe misconception if you really think that the hacks will get "weeded out". Those same hacks have the ability to lower their prices further than you or I and that gives them a leg up. Think about what most clients complain about when/if they do about good work and think of what kind of shoddy workmanship the average homeowner could identify or is willing to live with. A bad roof job isn't alway noticeable right away, mold sure sneaks up on people, tile can take years to fall off the wall, and drywall pops can take months. Even obvious blemishes (to you or I) can go unnoticed by the layman. If a crown moulding has a bad miter or a deck is too bouncy, most homeowners don't know where to point the microscope to know if they have been fleeced....next thing you know, the hack who took them has taken all their friends and families.Customers are horrible at "weeding out" the lesser quality craftsmen. If that weren't true then how do you explain the success of any Walmart product, Harbor Freight tools, Maaco auto body shops, McDonalds food, Home Depot customer service, anything Electric company/phone company related, or the Chinese economy in general. Do you think any of those thriving companies care in the least about QUALITY? Who's "weeding" them out? Too bad the government ever intervenes in their businesses to stop tainted meat, lead paint, paint fumes, or harmful emissions.You sound very afraid of change and government. I'm not saying you don't have cause to be, but I am saying that sometimes both can be good too. (I've also been saying that licensing doesn't need to be totally government regulated if you read some of my posts).DCEdited 2/13/2009 3:37 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
Edited 2/13/2009 3:40 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
you are suffering from a case of severe misconception if you really think that the hacks will get "weeded out
I hate to disagree with you, but...
In the last 30 years in upstate NY I have watched many co come and go, for various reasons. The single most important thing has been the business owner realizing that he must make a reg profit or he will be out of business.
My definition of hack includes the contractor that isn't smart enough to charge properly for their work. I can show you by taking and looking at the yellow pages every 5th yr and you will see the co that are missing.
Customers are horrible at "weeding out" the lesser quality craftsmen
That is true, and I might say it is hard if you are in the trades to weed them out also. Having a license does not do a thing to weed these people out. Reread that last statement. Saying that and then believe it.
The only thing a license does is allow the people that can pass a test and pay the fees to be in business. When you mix up quality into the picture, that is a judgement call that only the marketplace will solve.
Yes, I have a problem with too much gov, as I believe we have reached that point in some states. ie. Look at Cal., they have probably the most stringent licensing laws in the US and yet, the contractors in that state continue to have problems with "hacks" or people that can't be bothered to get the license.
The solution is either to enforce the laws adiquately or realize like NY did years ago, that they can't, and allow the marketplace to decide.
The difference is that I'm not proposing the same licensing that we currently have; which you are correct, is just passing a basic test.I propose we use education, internship, multipart testing, and continued learning. That means someone like you and I says what a carpenter should know, you and I take on apprentices, you and I decide what and how to test, then you and I determine how to add to the knowledge base of carpentry. The government is just there to enforce what we set up. That's the way the ADA, ABA, AICPA, AIA all do it; Nonprofit professional organizations. Edit: imaging NAHB creating the licensing programs but the gov. enforcing licensing issues (or something like that).DC
Edited 2/13/2009 4:28 pm ET by Dreamcatcher
I propose we use education, internship, multipart testing, and continued learning. That means someone like you and I says what a carpenter should know, you and I take on apprentices, you and I decide what and how to test, then you and I determine how to add to the knowledge base of carpentry. The government is just there to enforce what we set up.
I propose that you do all that voluntarily, then create a nice presentation book that explains how educated you are, then sell your services to those that care.
Adding a layer of government into your sales presentation book does nothing for your bottom line. As soon as you require lots of paper to get a license, you weed out the true mechanics...the guys that really know how to build.
In MI, they require all auto mechanics to be certified. Here in TX it's every man for himself. I like it much better here in TX. I can get two dozed guys to show up and fix my car in my driveway in four hours. In MI, I was held hostage by the licensing requirements. The smallest repair was a huge bill.
Blue,What planet are you living on?
Oh I see, you're from texas.Well, not that your response made any sense to anyone, but I can see you are stuck in the olden days when mens was mens. Sorry to say, this isn't the old west anymore. The times are changin' and if you are still ridin' yer horse then the trains gonna pass you by. Soon, gone will be the day when you took home your short wages with the warm pinch of an aching back being your bonus. Construction has become complex enough to warrant an education to be ahead of the competition, in some ways that's why publications like Fine Homebuilding and JLC do so well. Hard labor is still the rage but the compensation for the physicality of the job is beginning to be recognized and rightfully so. Media attention of unsafe and shoddy workmanship is at an all time high. I was just watching the news tonight about a new high school with a leaky roof and the newsman pushing the interviewees where to point fingers.Hey, think of it this way. You are old and on your way to retirement (hopefully). By the time the changes to our profession happen you'll already be long gone. So you won't need to gripe about "havin' to learn a sumthin' new" nor will you have to stand in the long interweb lines to get yer e-paper-werk processed. You can sit back and let us young up an coming carpenters with real educations and sense of loyalty deal with that new fandangled license stuff.Keep on gripin' grandpa "BACK IN MY DAY.....blah, blah, blah...."DC
Sorry Dreamer, there wasn't one line of your response that had any connection to whatever I said that tripped your circuitry.
Maybe you might think about taking your bait to someone who cares.
Sorry Dreamer, there wasn't one line of your response that had any connection to whatever I said that tripped your circuitry.
Maybe you might think about taking your bait to someone who cares
Good answer, wonder what he is trippen on? WOW!
Just trying to say that you old guys fear change and government while us young guys say "I sure don't want to end up like that old timer".You guys have some weird concept of paperwork as being the enemy...maybe you'd be better off with a job that just required mindless nail banging. I like paperwork just fine, I see it as part of being in the business of carpentry, just like making calls, presentations, and consults.Speaking of my "presentation book"....you guys...my fellow carpenters..are supposed to be the ones who care enough to unite, regulate, make change. I guess you are too proud or tired to try...that's why you just sit back and gripe about the world.Speaking of shutting out the "true mechanic"....I respect those people who do whatever it take to meet their goals in life. You would rather award those who one day feels like being a carpenter, the next feels like being a lawyer, the next..etc. I think if someone commits the time and money to getting an education, they should be respected as such.Speaking of "trippen"....those drugs may have been cool when you were my age but not in these times. Please don't ever insinuate that I am doing drugs. really.DC
Just trying to say that you old guys fear change and government while us young guys say "I sure don't want to end up like that old timer
In your dreams this may be how you look at the world, but it is far from the truth. We oldtimers, didn't figure I was that old, still embrace change in building materials and equiptment. That is why you wont be useing a hammer much in your career.(air tools) I have looked at every new thing to come down the pike and evaluated it according to years of experience.
Look at what the new things that are being used today that even 15 years ago were used but sparingly.
ones who care enough to unite, regulate, make change
Huh, I think you need to rewrite this thought.
Speaking of shutting out the "true mechanic"....I respect those people who do whatever it take to meet their goals in life. You would rather award those who one day feels like being a carpenter, the next feels like being a lawyer, the next..etc. I think if someone commits the time and money to getting an education, they should be respected as such
I guess I am getting old, I just can't understand what you are trying to say.
Speaking of "trippen"....
You don't have to be using to be trippen!
As I understand it there are places in the world where, to operate a busines in a trade you must complete your apprentice ship, work as a journeyman, then go back and do the requirements to get a masters ticket. As I understand it today, there is no place in North America that has a master ticket in the trades, in the U.S. it is often a matter of claiming you are a Master, or holding a business licence in a jurisdiction that makes you a master. There are no real rules, no masterpiece, no business training. I think adopting the old European rules may be good for the trade, but the reality is it would never happen
I am not sure it would be all that good. The old rules tend to limit the numbers that are needed to actually do the work, which in turn increases the end products price.
I really don't know if that would actually be better.
Alot of things are going to change over the next few years of economic slowdown, now is a good time to consider options, maybe build from the old a new working model.
I think you are wrong.
Its happened before, will again.
I think you are looking at the past through rosey glasses. Trust me, today is not a bad time to be living.
Every day is a good day to be living,
you betch'!
Well good thread
I worked as a custom shoemaker we had own nationally recognized association in Canada. We amalgamated in the 90's with the University dudes. Through a couple slick manuvers they managed to drop us old boys out, something we feared and tried to prevent in the future. Well having lost my professional staues for about 5 year can do a chart audit for $$ and re apply for the exam process ,I developed and wrote consituion and bylaws??
Now in the mean time I was an RN. I haven't had enough hours so I need a $7, 700 tuiton to take a refresher course. I paid 2 grand in 88 for the whole course (two year Diploma) Now as of 2000 you have to have have a degree 4 years. don't forget the student loans involved. So why take a degree to me a nurse when for the same $ you can take occuoational/physio therapy and make more cash and less shift work.
So why do you think there is a nursing shortage and a custom shoemaker shortage?
Goverment regs are well intentioned but are limiting acccess of professioanls.Before you all jump up and down who needs a custom shoemaker, one simple word Diabetes. I have taken all the training but not recognized by any one. So that's what I do for a living doing carpentry/ drywall et al to make a living and save for the 7,700 tuition to go back to nurseing and night shifts, being on call and dealing with people who don't tie off,. shoot nails thru there foot and and play with sharp objets and put there child on a snowmobile and or motorcycle. You can not legislate stupidity in any profession, ask my wife how had the physical from hell from a liscenced MD last week.
Socialism sounds like a great system.
I know 3 nurses, they do great for themselves. We are short nurses becuase u make more as a dr. and we dont allow foreign trained professionals here
More bait?
No thanks. I'm glad that you like paperwork. We are entering an age where you'll need a ream to fart.
A contractor cannot possibly be a hack. According to the U.S. Supreme Court a contractor is not a mechanic and only mechanics perform trade labor. Winder v. Cadwell, 55 U.S. 434. Journeyman electricians are mechanics. Electrical contractors are not. City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61.Journeyman plumbers are mechanics. Plumbing contractors are not. City of Louisville v. Coulter, 177 Ky. 242, 197 S.W. 819, Trewitt v. City of Dallas, 242 S.W. 1073, State v. Malory, 168 La. 742, 123 So. 310, Felton v. City of Atlanta, 4 Ga. App. 183, 61 S.E. 27.Journeyman paper hangers are mechanics. Paper hanging contractors are not. Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534.Journeyman plasterers are mechanics. Plastering contractors are not. State ex rel. Remick v. Clousing, 205 Minn. 296, 285 N.W. 711.Since contractors do not work at a trade, it is impossible for them to do it poorly. In some states you will see journeyman licensing. In Rhode Island, for example, there is licensing of journeyman electricians and of electrical contractors. Only those who have journeyman licenses can do actual electrical work. Therefore only a journeyman could be a hack.
In declaring a statute unconstitutional which required licenses of journeyman paper hangers and paper hanging contractors, this is what the court said in Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 183 A. 534: "The art of paper hanging is one that requires manual dexterity, skill, and some experience. It differs in that respect not at all from other similar occupations, such as house painting, carpentry, stone cutting, bricklaying, horseshoeing, repairing machinery, wood carving, plastering, and the like, which men have from time immemorial followed without regulation or interference as a matter of common right and which have no substantial relation to the public health or safety.
Under the act, the board is authorized to adopt rules and regulations for the examination of paper hangers and for carrying out the business of paper hanging in such a manner "as to promote the public health, safety and the general welfare." It might therefore require that a paper hanger show that he had acquired the proficiency in the science of bacteriology, chemistry, sanitation, and hygiene, which might be required to enable him to take such measures as would leave his completed work sterile and aseptic. Any such requirement would be palpably absurd, for a paper hanger is neither employed nor thought of as a sanitary engineer, but as one engaged in a useful and harmless art, requiring skill, taste, knowledge of the materials needed, and of the proper manner of utilizing them, and nothing more. To compel him to acquire at the expense of money and time knowledge and experience which would be wholly useless in his business would be an unjust and unreasonable burden. On the other hand, if that knowledge and experience is not required of him, there is no possible justification for the regulation of the paper hanger's trade or vocation, on the ground that such regulation is necessary to the protection of the public health or safety, any more than there would be for regulating the business of a carpenter or a bricklayer, or any other harmless or useful calling. It would, indeed, be impossible to imagine any occupation, no matter how harmless or common, which is not attended by some danger. The prick of a needle, the scratch of a pin, a bit of ice on the sidewalk, a misplaced chair, contact with some common electrical appliance may cause suffering or death, but such perils are too remote, and their causes such a part of everyday life that if they afforded a basis for regulating the activities of men, the promise of the right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness held out by the Constitution would be an ironical mockery. There must of necessity be somewhere a limit to the right of the state to regulate the common useful and harmless activities of life beyond which the state may not go without destroying those guarantees, and this statute has passed that limit."
5150,I realize those aren't really your own words but are you implying that old ruling is still viable?You gotta admit that even a mediocre lawyer could overturn that in this day and age.This is what grabs me in particular: "no substantial relation to the public health or safety"They didn't know much about building in those days and nearly nothing about mold.Go ahead and type in "Home Mold" in google news....2232 newspaper articles just this WEEK!Try "Building contractor lawsuit" that's still 287 this weekNow "wallpaper hanger lawsuit"....14 total ever....none of which actually had to do with anyone getting sued for hanging paper.AIA (architects) are legally licensed to protect "health, safety, and well being"Give me a good reason why carpenters shouldn't be so.And NO, Blue, "I don't feel like doing more paperwork" isn't a good reason :-(DC
If you want state licensing for carpenters, then the state legislature must enact the law. While I am not averse to this, one has to wonder why no state has laws licensing and regulating carpenters who work in the capacity of mechanics.And while you say that case is old (1936), contractor licensing laws are all based on cases that were decided in the 1920's and are still cited to this day when challenged in court. For example, in City of Milwaukee v. Rissling, 184 Wis. 517, 199 N.W. 61, no person, firm or corporation could engage in business as an electrical contractor without obtaining a license and each applicant had to designate the supervisor of the work. Such supervisor was subject to an examination. Guess what? That is exactly the same as my state's licensing for any trade contractor whether it be electrical, plumbing, et cetera. That case was decided in 1924.In City of Shreveport v. Bayse, 166 La. 689, 117 So. 775 (1928), Alan Bayse was convicted of supervising electrical work without first having taken the examination required to supervise electrical work. The ordinance there involved was the same as in the City of Milwaukee v. Rissling case just cited whereby no person, firm or corporation could engage in the business of an electrical contractor without having the supervisor take an examination.And in State ex rel. Grantham v. City of Memphis, 151 Tenn. 1, 266 S.W. 1038 (1924), an ordinance requiring any person, firm or corporation engaged in business as a plumbing contractor to have the supervisor take an examination was upheld and I hereby quote the Supreme Court of Tennessee: "Nobody but the licensed 'manager' of a corporation or the licensed 'superintendent' of a firm can even supervise the plumbing work which such firm or corporation may do. It is only upon this construction that we sustain the ordinance, which would otherwise be unreasonable and unconstitutional."Licensing for trade contractors all over the country are just like these cases whereby the supervisor is subject to an examination. And when they are challenged these cases are cited by attorney generals whose duty it is to defend the legislation.
5150,"Licensing for trade contractors all over the country are just like these cases whereby the supervisor is subject to an examination."Not sure if you are saying you are for or against me...that is essentially what I had proposed. To the point, I said that only a Master Carpenter should be able to enter contracts, those under the master, deemed either mechanics, journeymen, or simply apprentices could work only under the direct supervision of a master and only under a master's contract (I apologize that I did not state it so precisely before). To me this seems fair and reasonable.DC
Not sure if you are saying you are for or against me
Gosh...and all this time I thought there was a debate about regulations and licensing. Now I find out it's all about you!
Blue,I am the only one who actually came up with a proposalYou are one of many that came only with snide comment.DC
"You are one of many that came only with snide comment"
You reap what you sow.
jim....you could save some bandwidth... the two of them are never going to change
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=116367.57Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I don't know Mike. 5150 is hellbent on ....I'm not sure....he's certainly fixated. I admire his passion but I'd hate to put his unhappy shoes on every day. He's figting an uphill battle that he'll never win.
Dreamcatcher another story. I really don't know much about him but he sounds young. Maybe after he burns out some of those hormones he'll figure out how to have a conversation.
Mr 5150, have you ever swayed even one soul with your explanations of whatever it is you spew? CAn you name one convert in the ten years you've been doing this?
Intrusive governments have used the "health and welfare" clauses to enact almost every bit of legislation put in place over the past several decades. Think of what is not regulated, often by those not competent to do so. Take licenses for example, many are led to believe the hype by those ignorant of a given field [that it is about safety]. It, often, is not. In most cases it is but another means of taxing. Think, if you will, of one thing, in this "free country," with the highest per capita rate of imprisonment, that is not regulated. Hang out at a few legislative events and watch the special interest lobbies work, often successfully, to win out over the general public's interest.Conaway v. Deane, No. 44 September Term, 932 A.2d 571, 401 Md. 219 (Md. 09/18/2007), quoting Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 262-64, 183 A. 5 34, 538-39 (1936), at 462 (fn66), states:"We note, however, that this police power is not absolute. In regards to social and economic regulation, the Legislature may, in the exercise of what is usually called its police power, [] regulate or restrict the freedom of the individual to act, when such regulation or restraint is essential to the protection of the public safety, health, or morals. That power, however, is itself subject to the restraints imposed by constitutions which the whole people have adopted and approved as the supreme law of the land.
(Thus), while the legislature may, in the proper exercise of the State's police power, classify the persons to whom a prescribed regulation found to be necessary to the public welfare may apply . . . , or determine whether certain classes of acts may be regulated . . . , nevertheless the exercise of the power must have some real and substantial relation to the public welfare . . . , and the legislature may not, under the cloak of the power, exercise a power forbidden by the Constitution, or take away rights an d privileges expressly guaranteed by it.Waldron, 289 Md. at 718-19, 426 A.2d at 948-49 (quoting Dasch v. Jackson, 170 Md. 251, 262-64, 183 A. 5 34, 538-39 (1936)). We note that marriage is subject to the police power of the State not to employ the sort of circular reasoning urged by the State that Family Law § 2-20 1 is constitutional automatically, but rather to illustrate that the General Assembly and this Court have not always couched the right to marry in its most abstract sense.This brings and interesting point: How many believe they must have the state's permission to marry, and that such is acquired by obtaining a marriage license? Conclusions that such is true are erroneous, since a license for marriage came into being to allow that which, otherwise, would be illegal at the time - intermarrying between two races. Add to this that constitutions generally protect religious freedoms and such. For Christians, marriage is ordained of God, as such, it can be reasonably argued that man cannot make that which God ordained illegal without first gutting both common law and constitutions.The general public has no idea of how complex the subject of licensing is. Take another example: With Drivers Licenses comes "implied consent laws." Note the word "implied." By taking a DL, it is implied you waive your right to remain private in your affairs, or to be protected from giving information that could be used against you. These things must be implied, because your representatives cannot make a law compelling you to give up one right in exchange for another.PS Always cite the year when citing cases.
We sure don't need salesman that worked on 1 house in their whole life to decide who gets licensed. Then everyone will be black walnut, rock and shellac.
you don't have a clue, your not a contractor or a tradesman.
Edited 2/13/2009 4:19 pm ET by catfish
That was a little harsh wasn't it?
Everyone has something to contribute whether we disagree or not.
Generally being polite costs nothing.
I'll take back the butt out.
Thank You
catfish..... you are so certifiably wrong
frenchy is a premier salesman and we all have much to learn from himMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I spent most of my working life in Calif. where we had extensive licensing requirements for contractors' and the various specialty trades. Some trade and business tests to pass, minimal bonding requirement, and workman's comp.We still had the good, the bad, and the ugly. I think the requirements only served to protect the most vulnerable people against the worst bottom feeders. I am now in a state with no licensing for general contractors (which surprised me). I am also surprised that a large state as NY has no requirement. I see no real difference, there is still the same types of quality, good, bad, etc.The best part is for those of us who find the actual construction part of the business to be fun, it's one less set of paperwork to deal with and pay for.John
about sales, thats it. Maybe. Hadn't he been out of work for years? he can't sell himself.
no... he only got caught out last year when framers stopped buying rough terrain lifts
stay tuned... you could learn a lot from frenchy... just not about building
shellac... okMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thank you Mike.. we may disagree about several things, however one thing we don't disagree about is the need for respect for others on this forum..
frenchy is a premier salesman and we all have much to learn from him
Salemen excessively profit from excess regulation.
Nothing happens untill something is sold.
Columbus wasn't born wanting to sail to America,, A farmer may sell himself on the idea that he needs to plant a crop this year but it is a sales job when you consider the risks he takes..
Sales are a vital part of commerce. Commerce is how we all gain in a complex society.. There is no regulation forcing people to buy new cars or houses they are sold..
Why would your opinion hold higher value than mine? Or are you afraid your position isn't valid and you need profantity and intimidation to uphold that position?
Catfish,I am a professional carpenter and I firmly agree with what Frenchy has to say. I think you came off darn rude and out of line for this forum.DC
What is wrong with you? I'm not suggesting that people with no formal qualifications be forced out of the industry. Read what I am saying. We need to have some sort of regulations on who can and can't build. If you are not qualified, or don't pay comp, or e.i. or g.st. I should not have to compete with you. When someones house burns down because some one with all of the good intentions in the world wired their house wrong, or had a pipe burst over their new kitchen.........who gets screwed?? We get lumped into a category with them. In my opinion, you would like to be offended by what I'm saying. You are an old timeer that would tell me to toughen up, if you like the job this is the price you pay, you don't sit in an office, be happy.......... Why can't we make a fair wage? Is what you do so 'easy' anyone with a 'd.i.y' kit can do it? Do you enjoy pricing against the very same guys that give our industry a bad name. You work off of word of mouth, good for you, and you work for half of what anyone else does?? I hope your other half is making good money because you sure don't. I wouldn't discredit any of your self taught goodness, I my self am largely self taught. But I know in order for guys like you and I to make a living on par with what we do, risk and know some sort of regulations must be in place. If barbers, mechanics, small engines, elevator mechanics, pipe fitters and essentially every other trade has a requirement, why don't we? Every one would be able to become qualified, those who were not would have to find a way to be qualified. The only reason you should have a problem with this is if you aren't able to be for some reason, because for the real tradesman, and home owners this would be a benefit. For the record, there are plenty of places the sun doesn't shine.
What is wrong with you?
There is nothing wrong with me, mister. I am not the one who thinks he has some kind of god-given right to make more than the market is willing to pay him.
Your plan would cut competition back to the point where the HO would be at the mercy of anybody with the squeeze or political connections to get himself a piece of official paper, no matter how good or bad his work might be. Remember: the theory of gov't regulation is one thing; the reality is another. And believe me, in this province, there is a helluva lot more good residential being done by 'project managers' like me than there is by licensed GC's and carded carps who got their cards because their father had a card...or because they could come up with enough 'grease' to buy one.
In my area there are less than 20 licensed contractors operating with all-carded carps and labourers. Of that 20, I know one who does really high-quality work (and he's booked out 2 years in advance right now); the rest range from barely competent all the way down to quick and dirty. Most of them are charging $60-$80 an hour; guys without cards charge from $20 to $40 and most of them do better work...because they have to, or they'll be out of business in no time flat.
But the government-licensed guys can put their names in the Yellow Pages and paint their trucks with their phone numbers and put up 'work done by...' signs in front of their sites, so in this transient, tourist-driven, second-home housing market it's real easy for them to keep on finding new fools to hire them no matter how bad their work is.
Oh, yeah--that one licensed GC who does good work? The one who's booked out 2 years in advance? He can name his price...and not because he's got a piece of paper from the guvmint. Because he's good. He made his rep on spec houses, risking everything he had to build the first $1,000,000 house in this area--and 10 years later he's so much in demand he doesn't have time to build specs any more. People call him from all over the world and happily wait in line until he can take on their project.
That's what it's about.
If you wanna double your rates, maybe you oughta double your quality instead of asking the government to do it for you.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
All other trades are lic., why not carpenters? You don't want a lic. because you'd have to pay tax, because you'd have to pay comp on your guys, because you couldn't afford to get it b/c you've been playing the "cheapest guy around" card for the last decade? I don't get it. Why do you suggest that I need gov't to sell jobs for me. All I want is an even playing feild so I can run a legit business, pay my bills, afford to pay my guys what they are worth. Most of all I like the idea of having the trades be an appealing career to youth, if we leave them with this mess, who will build the old age home you'll be moving into, or fix your deck so your wheel chair doesn't roll off?
"All professions are a conspiracy against the laity"
Stephen
You don't want a lic. because you'd have to pay tax, because you'd have to pay comp on your guys, because you couldn't afford to get it b/c you've been playing the "cheapest guy around" card for the last decade?
Don't make this a personal-attack thread to mask the fact your premise won't stand up on its own. You don't know a damned thing about me or my work.
You also have failed completely to understand what I've been trying to tell you: This province already does exactly what you are asking for: license carpenters and require them to pass written tests and document thousands of hours before they're allowed to even take those tests. But what that has generated is not what you want. The rates for 'carded' carpenters (and other carded trade professionals) have not doubled; they're paid less than half here of what they're paid in Alberta.
Instead of raising wages and the standard of work, the QCC's corrupt, long-standing practise of allocating apprentice cards only to family members or guys who grease the right palms has resulted in the development of an entirely separate and unregulated construction industry which performs almost all the residential work available.
When the government finally realised it had created a monster, it tried to rein in its own quasi-independent construction commission a number of years back. The Minister of Labour proposed a new law allowing non-carded carps to build single-family dwellings, recognising the reality that 80% of them already were built by such workers.
But the QCC sent goons to Quebec City who waylaid the Minister as he was leaving the provincial parliament, roughed him up, and threatened his family. It was documented by news cameras...but the goons were never prosecuted, and the Minister withdrew his bill a couple of days later.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"If you wanna double your rates, maybe you oughta double your quality instead of asking the government to do it for you."Why is it that just because a carpenter works in an area with a lot of competition and/or doesn't rape his clients it automatically makes him a hack? I think the title of this thread is more of a jest than what I and maybe Nick is trying to really say: Why don't carpenters have better camaraderie?Sure, we must compete against each other to maintain a free market society but it doesn't mean we mustn't join together as separate entities to better the career we have chosen. To band together, it doesn't mean we hold clients hostage to unionized pricing, but it can ensure that carpentry stays or is re-implemented as a viable and respectable school subject. It can keep the general public safe from fly-by-nighters and toe-dippers, which should allow the long-runnners (old and new) to price jobs more confidently. It could even lead to lower business costs in the form of healthcare, worker's comp, permits, and material pricing; all of which currently jack up rates on account of those few careless, poor quality, and shifty ones who give all carpenters a bad rap.I'm sure doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, and architects were all against forced licensing when it came around in their own professional histories. For the record: Licensing doesn't need to be government regulated in terms of what one should know, how to conduct testing, and what responsibilities are given. I know for sure that in architecture; the AIA, NAAB, IDP, nor NCARB are directly connected to government and I have never heard of "knowing someone" or making a bribe getting someone a license. Please try researching this just a little to understand the possibilities of it being implemented in the profession of carpentry.DC
Dinosaur
How do we know that you aren't a hack?
Indeed how would the average no experiance hiring a contractor know? what certifications do you have?
Docters have specialties and records and boards..
Same with Lawyers..
However anybody can pick up some tools and print up soome cards and undercut legitimate contractors..
Since the average person has a whole lot more invested in their home than doctors or lawyers.. they deserve some protection..
Frenchy, if you think being regulated assures a competent doctor or attorney, you need to reconsider, One of our most famous Supreme Court Justices admonished the trade for its high rate of incompetency. By the way, there is no such thing as a license for being an attorney, but most get a license to do business. If they charged no money, they wouldn't have to have a license to practice law. A bar card is an entirely different thing. Don't be fooled. It is not about regulation as much as it is about tax and control formed out of pressure by a special interest group. A license is a permission to do what, otherwise, would be illegal. Think about that for a moment. For those who get married in the eyes of God, they are told they must have a license, though law guarantees their right to establish and exercise their religion, out of which marriage is ordained. Or, how about the hoax that you, a citizen of a sovereign county, known as a state, must obtain a federal identifier before you can work for someone else, though no such law does or can exist. In other words, we shouldn't believe everything we are told, but, sadly, when a lie is told long enough [or big enough], it is treated like truth.
How do we know that you aren't a hack?
You might try looking at some of my work. And you might also try refraining from personal attacks to bolster your commie-pinko-socialist-left-wing-nut-cake ideology.
Just yankin' yer chain. I don't really think yer a left-wing nut-cake....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You really should have read the whole statement. I said this wasn't a personal attack! Further I went on to explain exactly why and what I meant..
Please go back and reread..
Then I'll expect your apology
Just because your leg came off in my hand when I pulled it doesn't mean I'm gonna give you an apology....
...but I might give you your leg back if you smile real purty.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'd whack him with it LOL!
I grumble and grip often about what it cost me to make a living. I have a cabinet saw, a portable Bosch table saw, a Bosch and a Dewalt miter, a Powermatic band saw, a three horsepower Oneida cyclone, floor sanders, texture machines and on and on. Add to this, employee costs, computer equipment, transports for bodies and materials, fuel, advertising, shop rent or payments and so forth. All this has to be squeezed into that hourly rate or job bid.
All this aside, it all boils down to that I can make the kind of living I want to. The guy in the office is stuck with what his boss will give him. At the end of the day, I, on the other hand, have my Hegner scoll saw, my Fein tool, my floor sander, my granite routing equipment and so on. I can still play and to do what I enjoy (though that may sometimes be only after the job is done). So, yeah, it's rough, but, in the end, maybe you'll get your own TV show.
I think of my farmer friend. He often complains about how little he makes and what it costs to run things. However, when retirement comes, he'll own his two hundred acres [under irrigation circles] outright. He can rent it out, sell it, keep farming until he becomes part of the ground, or do whatever else he wants.
hate to burst your bubble... but 99% of the people working would like to do less and get paid more...
I get scared when people start to think goverment and more laws and more rules will help them... which means it will hurt someone else... the guy that collects your money when you buy gas... I'm sure would love to make $50hr... but do you really want to pay $10 a gallon for gas?
everyone that wants the goverment to insure that they make $50hr... really has no idea how that would affect everyone else... all prices would rise... and chances are you would have exactly the same buying power you had before...
I try to teach and advise everyone to have more sources of income than just your labor.... if all you have to depend on for income is the number of hours you can or will work... you will always be limited...
guess it all depends on what keeps you sated...
p
Ponytl,I agree with you that gov shouldn't regulate wages...no wages. That's just too communistic for me. But in my proposition, gov should maintain that the consumer is assured to get a minimal standard of housing as provided by at least a well determined carpenter totally capable of providing a minimal standard of work. The carpenter should charge whatever he thinks he's worth. But maybe he gives himself a boost because of the effort it could take to become a professional carpenter.My proposition is modeled after the architecture profession as determined by the government and the AIA and NAAB. From my viewpoint, simply the fact that it is a degreed, licensed, tested, mentored, and in general not easy profession to be in has allowed architects to charge a lot of money for not a lot of work and nearly no physical labor. I was on my way till I decided I don't want to work in some office somewhere, day after day. IMHO, carpenters are looked down upon by their clients who are often degreed and certified professionals. Anyone can call themselves a carpenter, anyone can be a contractor by passing a simple test. It's just too easy and that's the problem. Get rid of the "Two Men and a Hammer" companies and usher in the "Richards + Johnson; Licensed Professional Carpentry" and see wages double and triple.To add to that ideal, maybe gov could step in and force HDepot to see a license before selling Joe the weekend warrior a $2000 lumber package. Think he's just building picnic tables? Why is he also buying 200ft of wire? And renting a backhoe?Put the brakes on those obvious sales, make it more difficult for non-licensed carpenters out the and maybe we'd see a resurgence of real "lumber yards"....you guys remember those, right? they had the stuff you need, knew your name, actually knew what they were talking about, and above all treated you with some respect. There may be a whole slew of businesses out there ready to cater to the professional carpenter if ever there was such a distinction for them to care about. DC
DC,You say that you don't want the government to regulate wages (because government regulation would be bad in that manner), but then I see "gov should maintain that the consumer is assured" and "gov could step in and force HDepot to see a license", etc.I don't know, I just have a hard time believing that, when it comes to fixing my own house, that the government knows better than me what I need.It's one thing if you're buying peanut butter than could be tainted, but if I'm going to hire someone to build me a deck I have the opportunity to meet him or her and ask them questions that I have come up with through my self-education. And, after the deck is complete, I could hire an inspector (if I felt the need to confirm what the County inspector has already said) to check the work for me.I definitely agree with you that the license laws should be enforced. It is annoying that it seems so easy to turn a blind eye to the fact that one bidder has full GL & WC insurance, the appropriate license, etc., and the other guy has a truck, dog, and a skilsaw. But, I guess that's life in a relatively free market.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
John, What I have been saying is all in order with what is already being implemented in the architecture profession: you go to an accredited university for six years, get a Master of Architecture degree, become an intern under a mentor for two years, take a multi-part test, become licensed, have a professional practice, charge as much or as little as you desire, and take workshop classes yearly to comply with continuous education. In this fashion, you could hire whichever carpenter you want so long as they meet this same criteria but in regards to carpentry. It is still free market, it is still up to the contractor to make the sale, have the skills and personality, and charge whatever you and he agree to.The problem is that it is so easy now for someone to call themselves a "professional carpenter" that you could be hiring someone who talks the talk (even comes with references and pictures of past projects that could or could not be real) but when it comes time for him to walk the walk you are left with empty pockets and a hacked together deck.....go ahead and call an inspector now, your contractor's already four states away or has declared bankruptcy for the third time.This is a real issue.DC
I agree that the issue is a real challenge for the good contractors out there. However, I'm not willing to give Uncle Sam control of yet another facet of my life.
Your point about Architects works in my favor, I think. There is a lot, a lot, of residential work that is done with no licensed Architect ever knowing about the jobs. Sure, the multi-million dollar mansions will likely have an archy involved, and pretty much all big commercial (thanks to the government), but many McMansions, tract homes, additions, interior remodels, etc. never have a licensed design professional.
So the mandated exclusivity of the Architectural practice effectively limits the size of the market, IMO.
"The problem is that it is so easy now for someone to call themselves a "professional carpenter" that you could be hiring someone who talks the talk (even comes with references and pictures of past projects that could or could not be real) but when it comes time for him to walk the walk you are left with empty pockets and a hacked together deck.....go ahead and call an inspector now, your contractor's already four states away or has declared bankruptcy for the third time."
With all due respect, I think your bankrupt, MIA contractor is a straw man.
Most of the bids that we lose to cheaper, less adequate competitors is not because they are committing fraud, they just don't know what it costs them to be in business (or don't value their time) and feel that insurance, business licenses, payroll taxes, etc. are excessive.
Will they be around to provide a high level of service to the customer in the future? Maybe not, but I don't think they're as criminal as you make them out to be. Hence, I would rather not let the government eradicate them in the manner of which you describe.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
To add to that ideal, maybe gov could step in and force HDepot to see a license before selling Joe the weekend warrior a $2000 lumber package. Think he's just building picnic tables? Why is he also buying 200ft of wire? And renting a backhoe?
WOW... the home depot police... so in your perfect world... I couldn't/wouldn't be allowed to work on my own home... build my own garage... or dig a ditch...
again... when you start a premis with... the gov. you lose me... now with your idea we create a black market for building materials...... as for the "local Lumber yard" I have one high volume "building material distributor" that i deal with... i guess in the old day they'd be called a lumber yard... I go to them when i need a bunk or more of 2x's or anything over a couple hundred dollars worth of wood... i only buy wood from them.... the "lumber yards of yesterday" i always found staffed with A-holes... over priced and the service sucked... "pull your wood off the top... thats the way we get it and thats the way we sell it" so just because he purchased trash I have to buy trash? nope...
the truth is... most stick built structures in this country... are not FINE HOME BUILDING... and they are still standing... even hard to tear down... building codes and building inspectors if they do their job make sure stuff won't fall.... a basic box just ain't science... toss in panel and truss construction and you really don't have to be all that skilled to build that box...
everyone knows the deal going in to any building trade... someone will always work for less... sorry that feelings get hurt when you have spent a few years and aquired some tools and raised your skill sets... and now you want to limit who can do what you just spent the last 10 years doing... so you can now charge more...
dude that just ain't american...
have you noticed at the big box stores they all but cut out their inventory of plumbing compression and sweat fittings... everything is "sharkbite or grabber" even the sink and toilet stop valves... cut and press... pex manifolds you won't need the expander or a crimp tool... everything will come with the sharkbite fittings... maybe your home done "system" won't be the best thought out... but chances are it will work... and pass code...
the world is more and more being geared to less skills required... I'm surprised you can't buy a panelized room pre plumbed and prewired from Home depot... but i bet it's coming
p
Ponytl,I'm surprised to hear you are not a professional, I've seen you around here for years. Nevertheless, I am not crying or complaining that I don't make enough money being a professional; would I like to be able to charge more, Yes. But like you said, someone would come along and lowball my bid. Who gets hurt....just me. The homeowner might be angry that his doors won't close and he has a leak; which he will likely hold a grudge against carpenters in general for. The house may fall down, but not likely. More likely the work will fail over a long period requiring that homeowner to periodically make "bandaid" repairs which would have been more avoidable if A.) he hired me at the onset for more money or B.) all carpenters were degreed/licensed/regulated professionals.I threw the HDepot thing in just because of the blatant irresponsibility they show for allowing such massive quantities of materials to be sold to people who obviously have no clue (spend as much time at HD as I do and you see things that make your head spin). I am sorry you have had bad experiences at lumber yards. My local lumber yard was like that too - and to me, a pro who would have dropped $60k on them four years ago if they would have just gave a hoot when I walked in. I went with HD (the next closest) and get treated like royalty. The local lumberyard went out of business three years ago. Oh well. Most lumberyards treat me great - two even hired me to build their Kit&Bath showrooms. But in my last post I was thinking about plumbing, electrical, and HVAC supply houses that cater to only contractors, or at least used to. Be nice to have a store around catering to a carpenter these days. My loss, your gain there I suppose. Do I want you to work on your own house? Not really (don't get disgruntled, It is just in my best interest you hire me to do it instead). You do your own work and you can...that's just fine. But should you be able to hang a sign as a carpenter without knowing anything about carpentry? Absolutely not IMO. But it happens all the time. Like practicing medicine or law without a license. Like hanging a sign for accounting, engineering, electrical, plumbing, or architecture; professional carpentry (paid work) should be relegated to those trained in the many aspects of building proper.I got windy tonight, and I apologize but the topic of this whole thread is something near and dear to my heart - not to mention my life and pocketbook. I hope you have something in your life you are so passionate about so that you may better understand me.DC
i understand your passion... and i understand you being upset at the work people do in the name of being a "carpenter"
I just have huge issues with the goverment being involved... how do you test for quality work?
lots of folks can take tests and do really well... doesn't mean they can do the work/job they tested for...
I'm an oddball here... I design build... I'm not a contractor... nor am i for hire... I create my own projects.. and do large parts of the work myself... it keeps me off the streets and keeps a few people interested in my well being (the banks)
I understand most trades and have the skill set to perform most of them (and more tools for any trade than any "professional" i've ever hired)...
I'm in no way demeaning any trade... I too have been witness to the "show" at the big box stores... I think i have helped as many people there as any one employed there...
but the Issue is you want protection in the form of laws and regulations that would prevent someone from making a living without the expressed approval of some gov. office.... this is a slope I'm not sure you want to travel... should the same hold true for painters? plasters? how about the guy who only does tile or wood floors... what about the landscape guy? should you be allowed to frame but not hang windows & doors? who gets the Gov ok to hang siding or lay bricks... or do concrete flat work... through your eyes i can see a situation where it was a small job and would require 5-10 trades all have'n to show up several times in the correct order so that the job could be done... all jobs that someone with basic skills could have done alone...
Cream always rises to the top... but market forces will always rule... some will pay more to know that you are on the job... and many just won't care as long as the job gets done... and most of the time... good enough is ... good enough...
I feel your pain... but gov is not the answer...
p
Edited 2/9/2009 10:13 pm ET by ponytl
It's a tough situation to remedy. Every time "government" intervenes to solve a problem, it creates two more. That, really, is not an over the top exaggeration.For example: Thanks to government intervention, we finally have carpenters/contractors/builders who get a gazillion an hour in compensation for their college degrees and internships (they now live next door to brain surgeons), but there are only two are only a few to go around; Joe Blow now has to hire the guy with a bazillion dollars in education and equipment to build his dog house shed, so building the doghouse storage shed now cost as much as a small condo; and on it goes.We, currently, have licenses for doctors, attorneys and so forth. It solved some problems, but new ones were born out of the solution. For example: Political influences by lobbying and public opinion forces you to hire only doctors ruled by advertisements from big pharma, or attorneys who appear to be trying to out do each other at being incompetent (you really need to be in law for a while to know how really bad it is).What's right? A contractor, doctor, or anyone else competing in the business market (and it's all business) is only as good/efficient as the people directly and indirectly backing him, the ones who provide a better laser, a better miter, a better building, a.....). Should they receive anything less for equal effort?In some parts of the world, in contrast to America, a doctor does not automatically sit atop a pedestal. But then, neither should we. Rather than the money we earn being dictated by our profession, it should, as for the most part it is, be based on our individual drive and competence. Meanwhile, keep in mind we appear headed down a bailout trail that, previously, primarily consisted of creation of laws to protect special interests, but now are the bailouts via socialist cash redistributions.Regardless, it all has the potential, if not probability, of bringing us all down. As someone said, the herd is being thinned.Unfortunately, calamities often also remove some of the cream of the crop. For example, in our case, ones who know how to do the work, but who lack business savvy.In the end, that's why this forum is here. So we can survive that which we, otherwise, might not know how to deal.You could loosely translate that to that this forum is a means by which we can steal and adopt each others' knowledge base and trade secrets to allow us to run our competition out of business.In truth, and within reason, we need local competition. As was elsewhere suggested, try to find others of your profession, including those associated with it, with whom to work. For example, go watch small farms operate. They often share equipment and services to survive. They've learned they can thrive when they can call upon each other. Something rare in our trades.
Dejur,
Really you are just making broad and inaccurate exaggerations of the whole idea. Do you really think that just because someone is required to have a six (that is only 6) year degree, a little on the job training, and a test that he will go on to charge ten times his current average wage? Sounds like you have no clue just how little money carpenters make. As a note: lawyers are typically the most difficult clients to get money out of at the end of a job."That, really, is not an over the top exaggeration."Here are some current average wage statistics:1.) Here are what carpenters are making right now without a masters degree;general labor $23,000 to $31,000/year
carpenter min 1yr experience $31,000 to $46,000/year
carpenter min 3yr exp. (highest level) $42,000 to $55,000/year2.) Since my idea is based on the requirements in architecture, it should be reasonable to say that a Master of Carpentry should make as much as a Master of Architecture.architect entry level $32,000 to $41,000/year
established architect min. 5 years exp. $56,000 to $74,000/year
architect owner/operator $85,000 to $128,000/year3.) Just to show how out of it you are, here are the actual figures for the professions you were comparing to;neurologist $173,000 to $242,000/year
entry level lawyer min 2yr experience $94,000 to $135,000/year"...try to find others of your profession..."
Listen, apparently you don't know that bringing together carpentry professionals has been being attempted for decades. There are unions, builders and remodelers associations, certifications and registrations.....none of them make major impact (unions do make some impact but at a cost). The problems are:A.) Anyone can be a carpenter for as long as they want with no investment in time and little investment in tools. Therefore; no investment = no responsibilityB.) Part of the appeal of carpentry is going it alone. Many carpenters do not want to work with other carpenters and when they do, they spend all their time arguing how to do the simplest task. C.) Carpentry tools are cheap individually but expensive in mass. The burden of overhead is accumulative and each carpenter needs to take his own set of tools that he is comfortable with to his own jobsite everyday. Tractors are expensive individually and farms never move.D.) Carpentry is a BUSINESS and part of being a good carpenter is being a good businessman. You can be the best wood cutter in the world but if you cannot perform business wise, you will lose your arse if not by your client or boss then later to the government.I am not asking for a bailout here.
I am asking for better training and a little respect
I would like to get paid more but that is not my issue...it is the name of the thread though.
Maybe you should get paid less, that would help the economy too.I've said my piece and much more, If you don't get what I am saying by now then you never will. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm finished here.DC
There is a part of me that agrees that there should be some sort of licensing for contractors.
The other part realizes it won't solve all of the issues.....
Do all licensed architects draw good looking and functional/buildable designs?
Who in government will monitor said contractors? The same folks that always inspect that water heater they made you get a permit for?
Will the licensing work similar to plumbers and sparkys, where only the permit puller must be licensed and the employees are not?
I agree with you that everyone can't make 50 dollars an hour, I agree that the cost of living going up would be harder for the people on the lower end of the payscale. I know what you are saying about having more than one way to make money. The problem with our industry, is that there are absolutely no regulations at all. Mechanics, have lic. milrights, gas fitters, boiler makers all have lic. It's not a ploy for me to make gobs of money, it's a ploy for us to make a living. As framers I think we are underpaid, always have been. You don't see too many 'old' framers, I used to think it was due to the toll it takes on our bodies. I think I know why now.
Great post but please hit enter about every 5-7 lines, a lot easier to read.
"Instead of us working ourselves into the ground, we should charge more. To bad it's not that easy, maybe if the gov't was to regulate trade work the way they regulate dr's we could breath a little easier. I'm a framer, the past 15 years I have destroyed my body on a daily basis to earn a decent living.
I will trudge around in the mud in the spring, my boots sometimes weighing 40lb each. I stand on the top of a 20' wall in the middle of January in -20. I carry more tools to work than any other trade, my set up every day takes longer.
My job is to make sure that every one else's goes smoother. I make sure that there is a home for someone for generations to come. But this industry has become so cut throat, we have to run to make money. I am personally really starting to lose heart here.
In Canada we are supposedly short trades, we are short 'good trades' I would say anyways. If this is the case for me and many others I know, how will we get any young promising workers in this field, who will come after us seeing the way we struggle? I wouldn't want my kid to do this under these circumstances. Does anyone know what I'm talking about?"
"Working for a living" sucks, yes.
Not sure when humans thought that was the way to go...
;o)
You just said what i always felt.Look what some other trades and job titles get for there time. Are we any less skilled. We constanty improve our knowledge of our trade, have the best tools that we can afford, work in all kinds of weather and still do it. I like what i do, there is nothing more rewarding than seeing the look on a customers face when the job is finished (most of the time)-This panel that the president wants to form to see what is happening to the middle class, another waste of time and money-
Nick V?
You do good work Nick and you have talent.
Don't worry--spring is coming...
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
I am Picking up what you putting Down Nick! Sick of it my self ! Plumbers and electricians use half the tools and other than boilers and water heaters ,have to carry half the weight in stock and usually I pick up after them if I want it done right ! For the first time in my career I am thinking of what else I could do that won't beat the hell out of me! Living on Aspirin , ask for a back massager for Christmas and see my chiropractor more than my wife and kids. When times are tough like now ,people want to beat you up on price and beat you down even more, even know the house they're left with could be sold for twice as much as what we build it for! I'm sick of it and I'm not gonna take it any more!!!!! Whew! Nice to get that off my back , that felt good! Maybe I'll be a professional whiner for a living ! Naaa! I'll stick to building. Oh and Plumbers and Electricians, don't worry we still love ya, I needed to unload on someone and you were there!
Yep, a hard job, the plumbers got the creaky knees, electricians die of boredom, we get the knees, the back, carpal tunnel, arthritis, frost bite, sunburn and aches and pains that don't seem to go away. I've had some success with acupuncture. Before that there were times I couldn't think my body hurt so much. I have also been much more realistic about my work surfaces, weight lifting ect. I can't bench press 400 lbs anymore :), guess I'm getting..old.
Nick , We are long lost twins I think! I search every day for remedies for my bad back and joint pain , I too used to lift and benched close to 480 but where did that get me , no where. I had back surgery at 27 and had partial Lamenectemy ( sp?) I could use surgery on both shoulders and when I get out of bed in the Morning, It takes me a minute to stand up straight . Don't have any tatoos but if I did ,it would be the tin Man cause thats who I feel like ,Oil Me!!! some days its good others it hell but gotta feed the mouths and deep down I do love what I do but sometime I'm hating it to! Oh well ,like I said can't whine I picked the profession! Hey If you got any good remedys for stiff and sore back muscles ,let me know , looking for that wonder drug !
Accupuncture worked great for me. Unlike masage and chiro, you don't have to go back every other day. I usually get 3 weeks - 3 months out of 1 visit. I think my problem is a compounding one, I do something dumb, I hurt the big muscles, the little ones take over for the big ones and they get tired and sore. I'm no dr. but I think the needles make the little ones relax and let the big one take over. But I'm only guessing, it feels better bottom line. I've started to actively take better care of my body, I used to hop down off of things often, I use a ramp or ladder now, I don't try to carry 2 sheets at a time, no more than 4 studs, when I need more people to lift, I get more people. Like you say, If I wanted I could always do something else. I know one forced me into this, I do it cause I like it. If I was in it for the money I'd be a Dr, Lawyer, Dentist, Exotic Dancer whatever, I guess my point is it's my choice to do what I want. Lately I've been told I should go to teachers college, steady work, good pay, no heavy lifting or danger of falling. 3 months of vacation time a year! Sounds good, when I think about it prior to this shortage of work it'd been over 5 years since I took more than a week off.
Ya Nick , ya know I've tried everything and just recently an acupuncturist but he was really out there and tried to sell me his herbs and anything else he was into . Your right we just have to abort doing the stupid things we did when we were younger . Most of my problems is with pulled muscles and spasms and I could be a weather man with the differences I feel with high and low pressures going through with the weather . Guess I just have to stretch like I'm Gumby !! Exotic Dancer ? Ya maybe your on to something there! Just gotta find me a pole !
And, in those three months off, you hire a couple of bright high school kids, and crank out a spec home.
I don't know about three months. There is a home in my area, a beautiful old home, it's pretty delapitated, but the young owners love it, and spend most of their time and money working on it. I thought if I could ever bring it back I would love to. I've always liked working on front porches in the old neighborhoods, maybee if I had some time I could work on them, not worrying to much about the money. I haven't really had 'the' project yet, for me restoring an old porch would be it.
The original post was a follow up, on your comment on people telling you to get a teaching credential, and that teachers get three months off in the summer.
I had two teachers in high school, who built a spec home every summer. During the spring before school let out, they would pull the permits, and have the initial grading and concrete work done before school let out.
Once classes were over for the summer, they would have the lumber for the framing dropped, and get started. They typically picked up a couple of kids each to help them.
By August they would be pretty much buttoned up. They might have a bit of trim, or flooring left but not usually.
On bringing the old ones to life, I worked the oldest Queen Ann in Olympia, Washington. The kids who bought it paid about $750. Not that many years ago, it would have gone for forty, as a starter house, for someone desperate. Though I started as the painter, I ended up repairing the old wood floors, because no one knew how or could match them (you can't find the patches now) to help them out. I then went on to repair ginger bread and so forth while the main GC was occupied with the new build aspects.The house was on a wet area and had done some notable settling, which, pictures of the era indicate, happened shortly after being built (about eighty years earlier). However, when I pointed out they should consider leveling things before tackling lath and plaster walls and other major remodel projects, the new owners insisted the porch, only about ten feet deep, was the way it should be, to deal with the local rains. To argue was futile.The house sloped to the south, where the porch was located. Their bed was set up west to east (its location starting about twenty-five feet north of the porch). As one of my final favors, I cut three progressively thicker shims the length of the bed, to level it. The southernmost shim was 1-1/8", the amount of the drop in six feet at that point of the house.Edited 2/26/2009 2:54 pm ET by dejureEdited 2/26/2009 2:54 pm ET by dejure
Edited 2/26/2009 2:55 pm ET by dejure
I haven't read this whole thread , please forgive me if I regurgitate.I see where you are coming fromwith wanting some form of regulation to level the playing field. It would be nice but wouldn't solve the problem. You will still have those willing to work for less as well as the HO's who seek out those who will work for less. Those
naively happy HO's will refer this guy to their friend until 2yrs later they find mold in their wall then realize they should paid the extra 2 grand to get itdone "right"And who's to say that a licensed capenter is going tofollow all of the rules anyway. Cut costs by cutting corners = more profit. There are dishonest people in every profession.You talk about the difference between you and the hacks. What about the difference between you and the top companies in your area? Are your tax returns legit? Do you take taxes out for your employees or do you 1099 the guys that work for you everyday. What else do you provide them? Unemployment? Vaca days? Health benefits? Retirement?Our market gives the little guy a legitamate shot at being his own boss and creating his own career. Don't stiifle that by trying to "level the playing field" by getting the government involved .
Look at the situation introspectively. You'll find all the answers you need there.
Our guys (formerly) got 5% Vacation pay, when we worked union they got 17% Pension, we pay w.s.i.b (govt reqd health ins.) on our employees which ammounts to appx 11% of their gross income. They were earning 40-45g a year on top of everything else. They were great guys and I would have liked to pay them more, there was just no way. I'm competing with guys paying their guys $10 an hour cash. None of these other benefits, just 10 bucks.