Cabinet makers are bidding the cabinets in my house. They are to be painted, not stained. The builder and one of the cabinet makers swears that MDF is better for painting (smooth, no grain at all, straighter) vs. plywood. I can understand that for the grain visibility.
Says he prefers to even make the boxes from MDF vs. ply, even in potentially wet areas like baths and kitchen. My bathroom vanities are all separated from the shower areas by doors.
Is an MDF cabinet box as good as plywood? If one is better, is it by enough that it makes a real difference? Thoughts?
Thanks!
Replies
I just wanted to give this a (Bump)
I think they both have their merits. Although I'd be more inclined to go with a plywood box. Might be more expensive and more of a hassle for the cabinetmaker to work with. But if you ever get a leak (and it does happen to some people) I think the plywood carcass will have a better chance at survival or at least be more repairable than a MDF one which more than likely would be ruined if the flood was a significant one.
Yes, more expensive, but I can't imagine how plywood is more of a hassle to work with. MDF is almost as heavy as lead, makes clouds of nasty dust, doesn't hold screws worth a darn and swells if you spill coffee on it. How do you figure it's less of a hassle to work with?
I seldom have a problem with particle composites because they are an actual 3/4", 1/2" etc.
Plywood however varies in thickness on either side of 15/16" from batch to batch. Which in my case means shimming to cut dadoes (Always a bother). The quality of the plywood has been variable. I've gotten sheets where the plys have literally delaminated or were improperly laminated at the factory only to be exposed after cutting into the sheet. Another thing that bugs me about the readily available plywood is it seldom arrives flat. To be sure it's cut up into small pieces and most the time any bow can be corrected with joining the individual pieces. The problem I have is when you get a bowed piece and it doesn't sit flat on the saw. you end up with a gap between the material and the zero clearance insert and then end up with chipout on the cross grain cut. I know this can be overcome and often I'll roll the piece with the bow over the blade to compensate. But that doesn't always do the trick either.
I like MDF for cabinet carcass's because it is generally more consistent than plywood. I use Confirmat screws to hold the boxes together. And drywall or flathead sheet metal screws work well to hold the 1/2" back in the rabbet.
I should mention that I usually do my own veneering so MDF is a more cost effective route for me.
As you mentioned I don't like the potential of trashed cabinets do to leaks so usually I'll make my sink case and 4" base out of Plywood so if a leak occurs in the cabinet or the floor the other cabinets have a chance of being salvaged.
All very good points that I never fully considered. All I recall from the last time that I used MDF was the cloud of brown dust which I am still picking out of my ears.
Thanks.
That is a definite downside of MDF. Be sure to where a respirator and be prepared to clean the shop for days on end.
I think they would be right that MDF is better for painting... you're not going to find anything smoother/flatter for painting.
For strength however, I think most would say plywood would win. Why not ask them to use MDF for the door panels and drawer fronts (the parts where appearance is most important), and plywood for the cabinet and drawer boxes (where strength is the most important)?
Carcases of plywood. I could get expelled for this, but I prefer the pre-finished birch, 3/4-inch, hardwood veneer core, material coming from China. The supplier just has to search for the right mill for good quality layups.
If they're slab style, then I choose doors and drawer fronts of veneered MDF core plywood. It's more stable than veneer core material.Gary W
gwwoodworking.com
material coming from China
I'll go you one better... I got a full container of some of the finest cabinets i've ever seen from china... all plywood... better finish inside than most cabs have outside...
fit finish hardware... everything as good as i've seen...
p
My wife left the 2nd floor laundry room sinking running, forgot about it, and left the house for a couple of hours. Major flood to the Kitchen below. All the new Kitchen cabinets were plywood boxes and they were fine after drying out. Not sure MDF would have survived.
With water in the Kitchen sooner or later there will be a leak. Get the plywood.
Plywood boxes.
Mine went in in 1962 and are doing fine.
Back then hardwood veneer 3/4 ply cabinets were standard in tract condos.
We've come a long way since then ... downhill.
The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
i have seen cabinet doors on kitchen base cabinets directly under the sink made from MDf bubble up from water driping on them over the years - i would not use MDF in wet areas, or directly under a kitchen or bathroom sink where they might come in contact with water
MDF does paint well, but there are other considerations when chosing material for cabinet construction
"Is an MDF cabinet box as good as plywood?..." Answer..No.
Plywood is much lighter than MDF and plywood has better holding power with screws and nails. Edges on MDF can easily split out , and nails will leave little blemishes (pop marks) although professional cabinet makers usually know how to cover up these blemishes.
If your cabinetmaker wants to charge you the same ( or nearly the same ) price by substituting MDF for cabinet grade plywood, then look elsewhere for your cabinets.
The two most desirable characteristics of MDF is that it normally stays flatter than plywood , and is much, much cheaper than cabinet grade plywood. So, if you should opt for MDF, the bid price had better reflect that in a substantial cost savings for you.
Please know that MDF is really just compressed wood fibers mixed in with a resin binder, and is covered with a resin coated paper. When paper gets wet...well, you know what happens.
If your cabinets are to only be subjected to a little moisture now and then, the paint job should protect them. But actual water being sprayed or splashed onto MDF over a short period will cause problems. It really depends on how well the cabinets were sealed and painted in the first place.
If it were me, I'd rather opt for a "medium" grade , all plywood cabinet (box, face frame, shelving, doors) rather than pay for "top grade" MDF cabinetry.
But hey, best way to decide is to visit the cabinet maker's shop and ask to see an MDF "display" cabinet, and another made from ply. Check out the craftsmanship of both, and then decide.
Good luck.
Davo
I think Davo has covered everthing and in my opinion done " very well" , wouldn't change a thing that he has said.
Its good advice.
Gary
Davo, thanks for the response. You have outlined my sentiments to the t, but I have learned no to follow my gut to where it wants to go without checking with people who have been down that road. The builder, who does million dollar homes (where that actually means a heck of a custom home), swears by this guy and his MDF and he builds a lot of his custom cabinet work with MDF in these homes.
I have seen his work and it is very nice. Comparable prices were given from another quality cabinet maker with 5/8" maple plywood boxes and painted MDF doors and drawers (painted flat slabs). The one who spec'd all MDF estimated another 15% for plywood boxes. I just don't know if my 2 boys land my crazy dog ived in his homes I have seen if his MDF cabinets would still look as nice!
Davo ,
I agree with plywood vs the mdf for the boxes , the door or drawer panels and finished ends whether frame and panel or not would paint very nice in mdf , at least that is the way I build pg cabinets .
For one person building mdf boxes especially in long runs the way I do the weight of the mdf works against itself and will kill your babies before they are born if you know what I mean .
Just a clarification : unlike particle board MDF is made not really of compressed wood fibres but what is called wood flour , hence the fine dust .
MDO or sign board has the paper you speak of , I am not aware of mdf being paper coated however they do make different densities as in tempered like the old Masonite . One brand called Plumb Creek is soooo nice for paint grade raised panels .
regards dusty
One more thing to mention regarding the use of mdf on cabinets.
People who use sheetrock like screws and then make comments on how the stuff doesn't hold screws for shid are using the wrong screws!
Try a comformat screw on the stuff and you'll see a noticeable difference. We use some MDF in some applications and screwed with comformat screws it wont come apart.
Oldusty, not necessarily meant towards you, just that your post was the one I responded to.
Doug
I'm currently building cabinets for my own kitchen, and I chose to go with plywood. I have used MDF for a lot of projects, and although it can make very nice cabinets it does not hold up as well as plywood.
I chose to go with baltic birch plywood (russian birch). It is costly ($80 sheet), but has beautiful smooth surfaces nearly as good as MDF. It is also incredibly strong, and works and fastens much easier than standard big box plywood because it has more plys (around 13 in 3/4")
The only negative to using baltic birch is the standard size. It is metric, so it comes in 18mm, not quite 3/4", not quite 11/16". This is easily overcome by switching to the storystick style building, and keeping the tape measure in the toolbox.
Simon
One big concern for me would be the structural integrity of hanging an MDF upper cabinet. I would also be leery of attaching drawer slides and cabinet doors directly to MDF.
PlaningMill,
I only have 1 upper in laundry room, none in rest of house, and very few cabinet doors. They are mostly drawers. I am having him also price the carcasses in ply and the painted areas in MDF. The drawer boxes afre already spec'd in birch or maple ply.
Is 1/4" ply a little thin for drawer bottoms or is it pretty standard?
Thaks for the reply.
1/4 inch plywood used to be standard for drawer bottoms, but I'm usijng only 1/2 inch now and it is much better.
One big concern for me would be the structural integrity of hanging an MDF upper cabinet.
You'd have to load more weight then the box could possibly hold to cause it to fail.
I've seen uppers made from mdf that has withstood several years of daily use and they are no worse for the wear.
Some people confuse big box mdf with the better grade stuff that is sold through cabinet ply suppliers.
Doug