Ok so most people bash vinyl here, I’m surprised to see a number of post with questions about MDF trim work. Am I the only one here who thinks MDF trim is horrible?
Yeah its cheap and I guess it paints well but it crumbles if it gets wet and I think it looks cheap I’ve seen it in million dollar homes and can’t understand how any home owner even one that knows nothing about building could want or stand for it in their home. Its CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP, how far are some people willing to go to make an extra buck, or save a few. MDF trim has no place in a quality home in my opinion, If you want to paint your trim use maple or popular, It may cost more but it looks better and it will last a hell of a lot longer. Next thing you know theres going to be discussions as to the best caulk to use for 1/4 inch gap created because a miter wasn’t done right.
Just my 2 cents
Replies
CAG,
I agree that MDF doesn't belong in wet locations, and for that reason I'll use solid wood for baseboards next to a bathtub, etc. I don't ever use it outside -- not even the stuff that's "exterior" grade. I've seen problems and don't trust it. The only other time in which I'll typically avoid MDF is when edge nailing is involved, since MDF wants to split if edge nailed.
However, if the trim will be painted, I'll use MDF because it's straight, doesn't splinter, and paints up great. Another thing I like about it is that the edges are relatively sharp, unlike the roundover that most softwoods receive at the mill. I prefer the sharper edge, and will even go so far as to plane edges of softwood S4S to remove the roundover.
Otherwise, I think it's a durable product. I've beaten the hell out of it to see how it holds up, and it's taken enough abuse to earn my respect. In my opinion, the surface is less resistant to dings than softwoods.
I respect your right to have your own opinion, and I'm certainly open to hearing more about why you've decided not to use MDF. For that reason, I was wondering what specifically makes you say that real wood "looks better and it will last a hell of a lot longer"?
Ragnar
Just My observations. I installed a room of MDF crown last week, first time I worked with the stuff. 16' x 16' room, 9' ceilings, I work alone. I had no problem cutting and coping the MDF, infact MDF is easier to touch up with a file than hardwood. The biggest problem I had was getting the pieces up to the ceiling without bending and flying all over the place. I use a pole support to help on the off end, but the problem I had was getting it onto the support. The 16' pieces wanted to bend and wander all over the room. The other thing I wasn't too keen on was the "mushrooms" left from the nails.
I guess with this hindsight I would have to say that if it were up to me, I wouldn't use the stuff for crown. Anybody got any suggestions on how to get away from the problem of the bends? Enough of my rant.
Mitch
Mitch,
MDF in 16-foot lengths is like pasta! I've done a lot of crown work with it, and just plain don't try to do it alone anymore.
Regards,
Ragnar
I like the way wood paints better because you can see a little of the grain coming through at times, I think over time the rounded edges and kicks in wood add character. As for lasting longer, MDF seems to crack for me it seems to have more blows out when I have shot it, and when I have tried to go and pull it off it cracks, at least in my experience, I guess these are not longevity issues though. I agree with the baseboard in wet areas around baths and such, but then you get into not using it kitchens, and laundry rooms and then why not just use one product through out the house.
At heart I am a real wood guy for everything, I think its better, cant really explain why I feel the same way about cabinets and doors, I don't like hollow core doors they just don't have the same weight behind them, and if you have to trim them down its a pain b/c theres nothing but an inch at the bottom not leaving with you much.
Edited 12/5/2002 10:39:38 PM ET by CAG
CAG,
As someone else has pointed out, the dust from MDF is a major drawback. I set up my chopsaw right in front of big out-drafting fan when I have any amount to do!
I'm a wood guy at heart, too. I always at least ask my clients to consider stained wood trim, because it's just so beautiful. But like I said before, I like the sharp edges as opposed to the roundovers. I think it's more period appropriate, since all the originall trim I encounter from 1900-1930 is that way.
I'm with you on the hollow-core doors, too. Complete crap.
Ragnar
It's fine for most applications. I didn't like it the first time I used it either.....
like everything else.....there's a learning curve.....to anything new/different.
I use it mostly for crown. After ya put up the crown.....ya paint it....
then look at it.......not like ya take it down and play with it!
I don't see durability a factor in picking my crown materials.
As long as it takes a nail and hold a glued edge.....what more to it is there?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
I don't mind MDF either, in dry locations.
I'm using it for baseboards with a solid wood cap over it. Looks prettry neat once the nail holes are filled, cracks are filled and painted. The MDF is get is pre-primed so I was in time and money.
I certainly prefer MDF to finger jointed pine - I find FJP to be more work than anything to have look decent and even then, the joint lines always end up showing.
F.M.
Yeah, I'm with you. I hate that stuff. I spent the past year doing nothing but trimming houses out with MDF. I didn't like it at all. When I cut the door and winow trim, I had to wear a mask because the dust was terrible. The ONLY thing I liked about the MDF was the fact that I knew every piece was going to be straight. I was working for a contractor doing entry level houses as fast as he could throw them up and the lack of attention to detail showed up in every aspect of the job. Its just a personal thing with me, I felt that I was shorting the people who were buying the houses. Not a pleasant thing for me. I definitely like wood better.
Glad Im not the only one who feels this way
Water will ruin wool carpets too - you have to pick and choose where you use materials. Good quality MDF (it's not all the same) machines well, stays relatively straight, and can produce really good joins. As a bonus, when painted, you never get grain showing through that screams "amateur job".
For period representative homes, I just cannot imagine wasting all those trees just so you can say that you used real wood behind that paint.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
MDF certainly has it's limitations. Yet on the flip side, it is superior to wood for some applications. When one blurs the line is when applications go awry.
I agree with Phill that not all MDF mills the same. It doesn't all take nails the same, either.
I do use it for paint-grade wainscotting. Raised and flat panels, or sometimes as a backer. Poplar for stiles and rails, MDF for the panels.
There is an amazing difference when cutting it. Walk into a shop where dead trees are being milled and there's always that instinctive "love that scent" reaction.
Walk in while MDF is being milled? It's best to turn right around and run out.<g>
Still, I support the material. Just use it wisely. Poplar is my #1 material for paint-grade trim.
I agree, it's not for every situation. It is dusty when cutting, but we shouldn't be breathing any dust, should we?! And yes, it's not wood, but hey....poplar isn't exactly good looking raw OR stained, is it?
If you're painting, it takes paint well, will hold up just fine, and is available in 1/2" stock, so it's great for certain projects. I just finished paneling a room with it, the finished look was great, and I didn't feel giuilty about wasting trees. Plus, the lack of shrikage is a major benefit. Nailing is fine if you use the right nails in the right places. Can't knock a product because techniques designed for a different product don't work on it!
Here's a shot of the partially completed room. It's tough to see but the vertical dividers are 1/4" set back from the base and the horizontal cap. It turned out to be a strong detail, and the cost was less thanks to the material choice. So it ended up enabling the designer to realize the vision, while mataining a semblance of affordability. Win win, I say.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Looks nice, Jake!
Jake, nice look.
No need to convince me. I think I have about 60 sheets of 3/4 and about 20 of half-inch in the shop.
I didn't think I was knocking the product. I like the stuff.<g>
Looks great Im not saying you cant make mdf look as good as wood, I just have a problem using what is basically glue and saw dust as trim work.
But maybe I need to wake up to new materials
It seems to me homes are being constructed out of cheaper and cheaper material. Hollow core doors, vinyl siding, MDF trim, plywood "wood" flooring, cheap plastic tubs and shower surrounds etc.
alot of talk about wasting trees. how do you waste a tree? its ok if the bugs eat em up or a fire eats em up right ! but if we use them its called waste?
OK, maybe "wasting trees" wasn't the right phrase. But "using natural resources, even renewable ones, inefficiently, is something that should be avoided."
Kinda wordy, though!
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Your Wrong,
Cutting second growth timber while it is still young and allowing the old growth to rot and fall over is what is truley sad and it is happens alot because of uneducated views like yours. And as far as your waste comment, you should know that 90% of the tree is used in Alaska, what can't be sawed into lumber is chipped and used to make Paper, and several other products including Ice Cream. Sean
[email protected]
Ketchikan Alaska
Only about 1/4 of the tree makes it to the lumber yard. The other 3/4 lays in the forrest and scrap piles and dust, thats called waste.
No, that's not waste. It's essential biomass for regeneration. That's why most regulations require all the slash etc to be left in the forest. It is essential to keep the forest alive.
And he isn't even half right about timber usage.
Timber harvesting takes on many forms, and differs from area to area, woodlot to woodlot. Whole nuther thread.
Back to the mdf thing... I don't like mdf trim for many reasons, and the list is so long I don't bother to weigh dissatifaction vs cost. One dislike I have, that I don't think has been mentioned, is mdf trim follows wavey walls, unlike wood trim. This look does not turn me on. I suppose it wouldn't matter in all of the perfect houses some of you claim to build/work in, but there isn't anything perfect about my world.
I will use mdf sheet stock as a base or panel in wood frame design, so I am not dissing mdf everywhere, just for most trim installations. Sometimes I prefer to use it, in the right place.
Qtrmeg,
So when you encounter a wavy wall, what's your method of applying baseboard and shoes?
What do you mean?
I cut and nail.
Do you mean with the mdf trim?
What I have done with that is refuse to install it. (almost always, it can work in some cases)
Here is the thing, I like to look back on a job I did, after pickup, and be satisfied. I don't own any rose colored glasses, and I am my toughest client.
Not too long ago a builder came back with some mdf chair rail, I installed it to minimize the wave and someone commented that I suxed because I didn't have it tight to the wall in some places. This was part of a paint grade shadow panel detail, and wavey chair rail ticks me off. What would you do?
I moved on to different clients.
You said you didn't like the way MDF (being much more flexible than wood), followed the curves of a wavy wall.
So I'm just wondering what you do with a less rigid material (like wood). Do you just span from high point to high point and leave gaps behind the trim?
Traditionally, the solution to hiding these gaps is to use a base cap of small (and therefore flexible) cross section, which will follow the curves of the wall more than the base itself will.
The point I'm getting to is that sometimes a flexible material (or cross section) is not only desirable, but traditionally accepted in use, as well.
Just food for thought.
Ragnar
I hear you, and digested the food.
I am all over what you are saying. I deal with that issue all the time.
I guess what I am saying is I have a problem when my main trim waves when I want to present a staight line.
10-4, Qtrmeg.
I've even shimmed and nailed once or twice to get the main board straight and true.
Talk to you later,
Ragnar
what planet are you talking about? 14 of the log being used? you must be another tree hugger trying to win support when you know nothing about what you clame you know. loggers are paid by the thousand and they dont care what it is that they cut it still by the thousand and they cut with in 6 inches of the top . nothing is left to waste what is not used as saw lumber is chiped up for pulp, even the bark is used, ever here of bark dust? loggers get paid for what is sent to the mill ,not for what is left in the woods .you pepole make me sick!
Ease up on the caffeine, bro. He didn't say 1/4 of the log, he said 1/4 of the tree. Maybe on your planet they drag all the limbs to the mill, but here I don't think so.
o sorry.
So 3/4 of the tree is waste?
It takes one hell of a lot longer to grow a tree than a tomato, and you can be sure the waste is way smaller, I don't care what type of tree, or what type of harvesting.
Any harvest resulting in high waste is the exception.
when you go back to your planet please thell them we dont do that here on earth!
I live in, hunt in, fish in a logging area, ive seen it first hand what goes to the mill, whats left at mills. When you get off your medication re-read my statement. 1/4 of the tree. The tops, trees that were found to be hollow, leaves, all is left in the woods. Second once it gets to the mill, its graded, and not every tree is great. Then you have the chips and dust, ive seen piles that are 15yrs old lay there. Lumber that made into furniture and houses has the most waste. While the pallet people who engulf more wood then furniture builders actually have the least waste of all.
As for being a tree hugger no, i love mahoganies & old growth lumber.
If you like to make wild accusations and spout off on theses forums many do so in the Wood Tavern.
sorry I vented on you bill. I guess it just hit me the wrong way ,if you lived where I do I think you would understand , I think the amount of waste of a tree depends on the size of the tree , but regardless of that14 of the tree is not realistic verry little goes to waste. mdf is made from waste wood so are alot of other things I mean just from what you see does not make it a standard. again for what ever its worth Im sorry for venting.
its all fun and games untill I get my fealing hurt!
1/4 utilization off the stump is the exception, and in my opinion a crime.
I can see woodlots that would only produce that, but they have already been highgraded, and you might as well flat cut them. People freak at flatcuts tho, so go figure.
thank you
sully? are you here?
Yep, Im here
There are some miss guided people on the Logging issue in here.
Seriously nice work - elegant..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Thanks, Phill-
Nothing beats praise from a respected peer! It was fun to be the designer and the builder. I had to make the trim I designed, but it was satisfying!
I've got a shot of the final product....if I can get my hands on it I'll post it...Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Jake,
What sort of profile did you use on the corbels under the "plate rail"? I can't quite make it out in the photo.....
Again, looks nice!
Ragnar
Ragnar-
I will post a close up ...but it will have to wait until Monday. Basically, the "corbels" started out life as basic blocks in the first design that we did, but I hated the heavy look. We wanted the shelf to be big enough for trophys and pictures (it's a young boys room), so whatever was under it needed to be proportioned properly. The blocks were the right "Support" proportion, but looked awful. So I fooled around with different ideas, and fine tuned it to a coved block, with a projecting bead along the base. That picked up a detail on the cove trim that sits under the shelf. I also put in a 1/4" "cap" over the trim but under the shelf. That projected out from the trims top about 1/4" and also around the corbels the same amount. A picture is worth a thousand words! Sorry for the klugey description!
To make them I glued up stock, then cut the cove profile on the table saw, then ran a bead bit on the edge with my laminate trimmer, and cleaned out the remainder of the cove (where it went tangental from the cove to the bead) with passes on the table saw. A little sanding, then I just chopped them to length on my chop saw!
Thanks for the kind words!Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Well, heres the pics that will hopefully make the words make sense. I could have done them in MDF, but I used poplar, as my poplar stock was thicker.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Thanks for the photo, Jake -- incidentally, the photo angle helps show the backband around the door casings, too!
Ragnar
Keep in mind..I'm a MDF trim fan..in the right app's...
but your comment on stained poplar made me remember a previous job....pics of which I've posted before....
Gotta give credit to an amazing painter...who stained the solid/ply poplar to resemble cherry.......looked even better in person...and not an inch of tape was used by him.....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
poplar doors too.......
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Trimmed out a 1.6 mil showhome a while back, the finished trim was gorgeous, almost black, 7 coats of laquer. 10" baseboards, 4" casings, the door headers were massive. I installed a truckload of trim without getting one splinter (cough cough). I wonder what the house would have cost if we had used Maple all around instead of just the clear laquered 6 panel doors? It wouldn't have made a dime of difference to me, except for the few extra days of installation.
Wear a mask, make your money, welcome to the 21st century
Gordsco
I did the painting for a new factory several years ago. I contracted to paint the work stations. They were made by a huge cabinet shop in Little Rock and came to us in a 18 wheeler van. Three loads full! They were all made from mdf . This is what I found opposed to wood ;
One coat of primer instead of two. One top coat instead of two or three . The job went very fast and yes it was cheap. When I got done the manager told they were really impressed with my quality . [ I laughed also]
What they were impressed with was that the work was "slick". That is attributed to mdf and laguer , not me .
Tim Mooney
Yeah I understand MDF will paint out real smooth, but if that's the look your going for why not just a step further and use laminate. Wood has character, the character shows when its painted. If wood gets nicked or the corners round over it adds character in my opinion. If you nick mdf or round over the corners it will start to disintegrate
As my favorite President would have said ;" Now there ya go again ".
Its all about money which was in your first post .
Tim Mooney
Oh, no, Tim, it's not about money. If I'm following this series of threads, it's more like: you can't use vinyl, because it's not wood. You can't use MDF, because it's not wood. And I'm the contractor, and I don't care what you can afford, or what you want, or what you like the look of. I am the master. You will be quiet, and pay me what and when I ask.
Oh, sorry, it's Friday again, and I shouldn't be allowed near the keyboard. <G>
talk about wasting trees!
Not sure what to say here - MDF is here and is widely used in all classes of construction. Use it wisely and it's a beautiful product.
Use laminate?????? for that slick look and feel??? Oh really! Now we can start rackin' up the big bucks. Certainly don't see any problems with the contact cement gases and nice black edges of plam. Give me gas or give me dust - I'll take the dust at least I don't have to wear a respirator.
... and if you nick it it will start to disintegrate? Ever knock a chunck out of 'real' wood - looks great. <g> Or better yet snag a bit of slash grain in some cvg fir and watch it run clear in to the heart of your piece.
Sorry CAG - like it or not, there <i>is</i> a place for MDF in todays market. For that matter, there would have been a place for it in yesterdays market as well had it existed.
Any old caulk will do. Just make sure you primer it.
Half of good livin' is staying out of bad situations.
ok but how long will it take for the caulk to dry? Im on a tight one!
Hey, bud
Have to get going for now, Give me a call later. Sully