Replies

1. 
   WayneL5 | Jul 30, 2003 04:55am | #1

   Gee, I see no one has answered yet.  I know only a little about it.  It's very popular here on the border with Canada.  At steeper pitches snow tends to slide off.  It fits the style of many buildings.  It can be purchased precut to length so you can use a single piece from eave to ridge.  It comes in many colors.

   Some disadvantages.  Rain makes a lot of noise on it.  Doesn't bother me (I kind of like it), but it might bother some folks.  When snow and ice come off, they come off suddenly, which can be dangerous if it dumps onto an entrance.  I would never construct a roof so that it slopes down toward an entrance (people or vehicles), but of course many buildings are built that way.

   Make sure you install the fastening system as the manufacturer specifies.  A common mistake is putting the screws in the raised rib instead of the flat surface.  People think it's less likely to leak if the screw is raised an inch.  But, the washer on the screw can't make a good seal on the rib because of its shape and because you can't get good compression without crushing the rib, it needs to be compressed tightly between the head and surface.  Each manufacturer is different.  Do what they say, not what an ameteur says.

2. 
   TomT226 | Jul 30, 2003 01:56pm | #2

   Don't know where you are, but here in Texas it will really cut your AC bill down if you use the galvanized finish. I'd stay away from the colors as eventually they will "chalk."

   You might want to consider removing your old roofs down to the decking.

1. 
   talkingdog | Jul 31, 2003 11:41am | #10

   >>but here in Texas it will really cut your AC bill down if you use the galvanized finish.

   Is that because the metallic finish of the galvanized roofing functions as a radiant barrier?

   My cabin is roofed in metal, and it's about time for a replacement, but unfortunately I am only allowed to use red.

   I don't like the sound metal makes as it heats up, or the patter of rain. I found an article somewhere on the web the other day (can't find the darned url now) that explained how to deaden this sound: an extra layer of plywood. Metal roofing>plywood>foam insulation>vapor barrier>plywood>rafter, if I recall correctly.

1. 
   TomT226 | Jul 31, 2003 02:07pm | #11

   If you fur over your existing decking with 1X material, then you can use the blue 3/4" insulation under that to deaden sound. I've seen roofers down here use 2X material and use a double thickness.

   I furred over the rafters in my shop, screwed the metal to that, and put 6" batts supported by chicken wire between the rafters, and it's pretty quiet.

   As far as the heat goes, any color other than white or galvalume will absorb heat. I'll never understand people putting a dark green or grey roof on a house down here.....

2. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2003 06:32pm | #32

   There is a metal roof product called Metile or met tile that looks like barrel tile because of the pattern stamped into it. It is clay red in colour and installs with exposed fasteners but they are nearly invisible because they seat into a shadow location. The pattern also breaks up the stresses of thermal expansion that can cause the sounds you refer to. It is a heavier metal than many and would so absorb some of the sound of rain on it and be more resistant to hail damage. You might run a google search and look into it. I think I have seen it advertised in the magazines too. .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   talkingdog | Aug 03, 2003 05:14pm | #46

   By "barrel tile" you mean a Spanish ceramic roofing tile? I saw something like that today, only like a Japanese kawara tile (tilde shaped).

2. 
   shake_n_stir | Jul 31, 2003 10:27pm | #17

   Why down to the deck?

1. 
   TomT226 | Aug 02, 2003 03:07pm | #28

   Gives you a chance to look at the decking and see if any is rotted and needs replacing. It's a real problem to pull up metal roofing and replace decking.

   Additionally, if you have a bunch of runs of shingles on your roof, removal will give the screws something better to bite into.

   It's just a personal opinion.....

1. 
   shake_n_stir | Aug 02, 2003 06:19pm | #31

   I can see that.  I don't like putting asphalt over asphalt either.  The edge looks cluncky and I don't think the second layer lays as flat.

3. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 01, 2003 06:26am | #21

   There was an article in one of the magazines recently about what metal roofs are the best for hot climates.  Research was done in Florida.  I can't remember which magazine, but I'm tempted to say the Journal of Light Construction.

   It's not important how reflective the roofing is in visible light, but how much it reflects infared.  They found that galvanized roofing, even though it's kind of silvery to the eye, was one of the worst.  Galvalume was one of the best.

   The article reported on newer finishes that are colors, some quite dark, that reflect more heat than galvanized.  This was due to new, high-tech coatings that reflected well in the infared range despite their color in the visible range.

   I wish I could find the reference for the article.  Since I live 18 miles from Canada it wasn't something I was inclined to save.

1. 
   TomT226 | Aug 02, 2003 03:15pm | #29

   Sounds like junk science to me. Trying to sell dark colored roofing material to the un-informed. I'd like to see the article. Any dark color will absorb more UV than a light color or silver. I guess that's why NASA doesn't have multicolored spacecraft.....

1. 
   deadmanmike | Aug 02, 2003 06:16pm | #30

   Then how would you explain the black thermal tiles on the underbelly of the shuttle?

   Mike

1. 
   TomT226 | Aug 03, 2003 03:19pm | #44

   Shuttle tiles (according to what I've read) are carbon/silicon and designed to absorb and radiate heat on re-entry. I've seen videos of tiles being put in ovens till they glow red hot, and you could pick them up by the back side. Sure wish we could have some roof material like that down here.....

2. 
   deadmanmike | Aug 13, 2003 03:13am | #52

   Correct, in part. Black/dark surfaces radiate their retained heat readily. Not just on reentry, that just happens to be when it's also absorbed in this case. The reason those tiles are used at all has more to do with the material-crystalized silica(sand) they're made of keeping the heat from being transferred to the structure underneath. The color is incedental, being part of the manufacturing process, but aids in dissipation of heat.

   At any rate, I stand behind Waynel5's point that roofing color has little to do with roofing temp. Black absorbs at a higher rate, but also releases it back at a higher rate.

   Mike

3. 
   brownbagg | Aug 13, 2003 03:29pm | #53

   they did a study here in my area about color of asphalt shingles, they proved that a black roof was 40 degree hotter than a white asphalt shingle.

4. 
   talkingdog | Aug 13, 2003 05:05pm | #54

   Something I saw in a magazine the other day, die-cast aluminum roofing tiles, look like Spanish tiles. Any idea on what the heat dissipation would be on such a tile?

5. 
   deadmanmike | Aug 13, 2003 06:55pm | #55

   OK, like I said, dark colors tend to absorb at a higher rate, but they also dissipate their accumulated heat faster.

   I'd like to know more about that test. Specifically: length of exposure, temp vs time exposed and sheltered, applied temp(40deg difference at 1000deg is nothing, but 40deg difference at 60deg is huge), and most importantly, was that 40deg differential at peak temp or mean.

   Mike

2. 
   WayneL5 | Aug 02, 2003 07:16pm | #35

   I don't think it's junk science.  The research was conducted by the Florida Solar Energy Center and the Florida Power & Light company.  Some of the products mentioned have Energy Star ratings, so are backed by additional testing.

   There are a number of dark colored materials, with spectrally selective coatings, with solar reflectances better than white asphalt shingles.

   The article begins on page 75 of the June 2003 Journal of Light Construction.

1. 
   TomT226 | Aug 03, 2003 03:12pm | #43

   Thanks. I'll see if I can access the article.

2. 
   TomT226 | Aug 03, 2003 03:41pm | #45

   Waynel5,

   Couldn't find the specific article you mentioned. However, I did find one, "Cool Roof," and it bears out what you said. The article had a good reflectivity index which I copied for all to examine. Thanks for the heads up on the Journal.

   Solar Reflectance Ratings

   Roofing material Albedo (%) Emittance (%)

   Red clay tile 33 90

   Red concrete tile 18 91

   Unpainted cement tile 25 90

   White concrete tile 73 90

   Bare galvanized steel 61 04

   Aluminum 61 25

   Siliconized white

   polyester over metal 59 85

   Kynar white over metal 67 85

   Gray EPDM 23 87

   White EPDM 69 87

   Hypalon 76 91

   T-EPDM 81 92

   White granular-surface

   bitumen 26 92

   White asphalt shingles 21 91

   Black asphalt shingles 05 91

3. 
   SamT | Aug 02, 2003 09:27pm | #39

   Tom, when I was in the Navy, ca. 1974, I worked in a dark green conexbox structure. the reflective paint on the box reflected %98 of energy. That is on the same order of magnitude as polished aluminum. Very cool.

   SamT

   "Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."

   Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117

3. 
   ETG | Jul 30, 2003 03:01pm | #3

   Metal roofing  along with slate and tile are the only real lifetime and beyond roofing materials.  All the other products are "projected" to last 30, 40 years but they haven't really lasted that long in service, so time will tell.

   The two previous posters are right with the few "downsides" of metal roofing:

   1) Rain does give a patter but many folks either have a well insulated attic/rafters or they find the patter soothing;

   2) Snow stops can be installed to prevent sudden slides of snow and if the roof is well insulated, snow slides rarely happen ;

   3) There should be no fasterner roof penetrations - all clips/fasteners should be under the roofing - better systems use this - Fabral is one example;

   4) Painted roofs do discolor/chalk with age, but the systems are getting better and a 20 year life for the paint is the norm; Unpainted galvanize/galvalume carries a 20 to 30 year warranty for the coating depending upon the manufacturer.

   The difference with a metal roof over other materials is that once a very mild film of rust forms, then a roofer can lightly wire brush the surface and recoat with a colored (from silver or black to everything in between) asphalt impregnated paint which lasts 10 to 20 years.

   My house was built in the 1760's with a 9/12 gable roof.  The original is still there - hand split shakes (I can see it in the attic and when I have run vent pipes, etc.).  By best estimates, a standing seam steel roof was installed about 100 years ago.  I had the roof inspected about 30 years ago - some minor tightening of the seams, then the roofer wire brushed and painted it.  My roof is 1600 sq ft and it took 2 roofers a day to clean and paint it.  And fifteen years ago, I had a recoating which is still doing great - no sign of any rust.   For the time/money spent as well as environmental impact, I would never consider an asphalt roof.

1. 
   Jeff | Jul 30, 2003 07:32pm | #4

   I do have a question myself regarding this.

   Whenever I do roofing (not often), I always need to set the size so

   that it falls on a proper width for the metal.

   As for asphalt, I just cut it to fit.

   Other then cutting a long sheet, or tucking it under the next one, is

   there any other way to fit the width. My supplier says the roofing

   only comes one width and can't get odd width's

   I ask because I have a job coming up that can be either metal or

   shingle, but it needs to be 12ft 6in (approx) wide.

   Metal would be faster and easier.

   Any thoughts on this?

   Jeff

1. 
   ETG | Jul 30, 2003 08:27pm | #5

   I personally have not done much installation - I did work in the matal industry and have installed corrugated on some of my outbuildings.  Cutting metal panels should be a last resort - if it is a painted panel, you are exposing a raw edge that  needs to be touched up with paint and it is questionable how durable that will be.  If the material is galvanize or galvalume, the edge will "heal" in time but you could get some rust stains till it does heal over.

   I suggest you find a metal roof supplier who will deliver the product you need for the size roof you have.  I am about to order a metal roof for about 1200 sq ft of gable/shed/dormer for a garage/woodshop.  I will make a scale drawing of the roof plan and send it off to Fabral (http://www.fabral.com/) through my local lumber yard.  Fabral will send me a quote and tell me exactly what I will need to fit my roof without any field cutting.  There are many metal roofing suppliers out there so shop around.  I know Fabral from my steel days and they are a good firm; but there are others.

   Good luck!

1. 
   Jeff | Jul 31, 2003 02:20am | #6

   Ed

   Thanks for the answer.

   I guess I'm a little lazy, having only one real supplier close.

   All the others are a good hour or more away.

   I'll do some calling.

   jeff

1. 
   ETG | Jul 31, 2003 03:45am | #7

   Jeff:

   Let me know what you find - there should be some good folks up in Vermont who supply metal roofing - all the timber frames up there cry out for a beautiful standing seam roof!

   Ed

2. 
   Jeff | Jul 31, 2003 02:21pm | #13

   Ed

   I love standing seem, but the budget doesn't allow it here.

   I'll let you know what I find.

   Jeff

3. 
   mdresimprov | Aug 03, 2003 04:03am | #40

   Jeff,

   I'm down in Brattleboro. There are at least 6 suppliers from Keen to Wilmington, Bratt. to Saxtons River. I've looked into Fabral and when I have the time its off with the asphalt. Good Luck

   Mark

2. 
   Bruce | Jul 31, 2003 07:10am | #9

   Most of the metal roof profiles repeat the pattern in 6', 9" or 12" increments.  You can lap the last sheet of a run under the previous one to get the overhang right.  It might take a couple of "tucks" in several sheets.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC

1. 
   Jeff | Jul 31, 2003 02:18pm | #12

   Bruce

   The sheets tuck together fine.

   That's how I make them fit normally, but with a small amount needed

   like 6 in, I hate wasting that much roofing.

   I did one last summer that was about 6 in short, so tucking worked great there.

   Jeff

4. 
   hasbeen | Jul 31, 2003 06:38am | #8

   I've installed a number of metal roofs, almost all of the pro-panel or delta rib type (Screwed down, not standing seam, both galv surface and painted).  That said, I'm not usually a roofer.  So, like one of the other posters said, don't listen to me, do what the manufacturer says.  {G}

   My experience is that standing seam is a better roof, at a MUCH higher initial cost. 

   The type I've installed is very common in my area (southern Colorado).  I've also installed it in AZ, MT, and WA.  Personally, I've never had a leak.  I have fixed some leaks in metal installed by others, but it leaked for obvious and stupid reasons.  (My naive belief is that you shouldn't be able to see daylight through the roof)

   IMHO:  Never put metal roofing on in direct contact with a mineral surface roof!!!  The mineral particles gradually vibrate against the paint on the back and then it rusts where you can't see it. 

   Either put the metal on a 1x grid that has been nailed or screwed (depending on the situation) down through the existing roofing or do a complete tear-off and put #30 felt down with the metal directly over it, or do both the tear off and the grid of 1x (that's my preference).  You can also put the 1x grid over an unvented insulated roof and it may be better than no ventilation at all (As you know if you read this forum a lot, the ventilation topic can be "heated")      ;)   

   The 1x grid with metal over it was detailed somewhat in a Fine Home Building article more than 20 years ago (I think).  It was about an experiment in passive solar with a crescent shaped house "Three sides to the Sun" or something like that.  Any of you forum members remember it?

   I've installed corrugated metal, but generally recommend against it.  What you normally get these days is a lighter gauge and I've seen it actually tear in a big wind.

   Another thing to consider is that any metal roof will get you a great discount off your home owners insurance.  About a 20% discount around here.  That's due to both the resistance to fire and to hail damage.  (our local lumber man told me that roofs never wear out here, they just fry in the sun until a big hail storm takes them out!)

   Some people also install metal over skip sheathing with no subroof.  I've been told that it works fine, but I don't do it unless it's a garage or carport - not living space.

   I totally agree with the poster who said asphalt roofing is an environmental nightmare or some such.  I heard that some incredible percentage of landfill space is used for asphalt roofing.

   In my experience it's better to have a lower sloped roof when using metal.  It holds the snow better (even with snow stops). 

   I have had a harder time keeping gutter under the edge of metal roofing.  In just the right conditions here the snow slides off very slowly in a big curl which wants to (and just might!) rip your gutters right off. 

   Good luck!

   Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

1. 
   VaTom | Jul 31, 2003 03:09pm | #14

   [Hasbeen]  My experience is that standing seam is a better roof, at a MUCH higher initial cost. 

   Any idea why the cost is so high?

   I was exposed to standing seam installation here by a friend who bought a set of foot seamers.  Neither he nor I claim any expertise with asphalt shingles, or standing seam for that matter, but we're both convinced that we can seam as fast as we can nail shingles.  This ain't rocket science or particularly requiring of much skill, with self-aligning seamers.

   We're paying $1.38/ft for 16 oz. copper, other metals cheaper.  While most asphalt shingles are considerably cheaper the first time around, the lifespan more than makes up the difference.  Having no interest in a colored roof or roof painting, the price difference for copper isn't hard to swallow.  What was that old adage about spending what you have to on the foundation and roof, then whatever was left over for in between?

   Commercial roofers here tend to believe that you must have deep pockets if you want a standing seam roof, and indeed, most do.  I've been told all sorts of crap by roofers trying to justify their pricing but somewhere it all comes down to what the material costs and how long it takes. 

   Another thing to consider is that any metal roof will get you a great discount off your home owners insurance.  About a 20% discount around here. 

   Given the steep increases I, and presumably y'all, have seen in home owners' premiums, that 20% would go a long ways to paying the material cost difference. 

   I'm about to order 2500 lbs of copper for the roof over my new lumber storage building.  Nothing else makes much sense to me.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

1. 
   talkingdog | Jul 31, 2003 03:54pm | #15

   We had one old roof here that is copper. Dunno how old, maybe 75 years. Has a leak in one place, a clean hole that was obviously created by a drip from a section of roof just above.

   Acid rain? Does acid rain eat through copper?

1. 
   VaTom | Jul 31, 2003 08:06pm | #16

   Acid rain? Does acid rain eat through copper?

   Don't know, but acid in well water sure will do a job on copper pipes around here.  Has the copper turned green?  We don't get that experience even though we have acid rain.  My shop copper roof, and siding, is a dull brown.  Expectations here are that a copper roof will outlast asphalt shingles by a factor of at least 5.

   I'll have to call Monticello.  PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

1. 
   talkingdog | Aug 01, 2003 01:01am | #19

   Turn green? Yup it sure does.

2. 
   brownbagg | Aug 02, 2003 05:21am | #26

   I was going to stay out of this con- vo because I really did not have much to offer.  I installed a metal roof on my house, it is a light grey painted galvanize with 40 year warrenty. It screwed every two feet. We have had 21 inches of rain since 1st of may, no leaks. It was cheap in price $1100 and I installed whole roof by myself in a weekend. It is metal, tarpaper, plywood no slacks But its also a simple gabel I would hate to do a hip or the fancy pitches. My powerbill has been very low due to light color. But ask me after the first hurricane how its hold up.

   Tip: tennis shoes, chaulk lines and metal roofs do not mix 

   
3. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2003 07:08pm | #34

   Copper is a very soft metal so it will abrade easily. I have seen valley flashings only forty years old that were worn through from the flushing action of water and the debris it carried. I don't doubt that acid would have some effect on it also.

   Much new copper work is leaded copper. The thin coat of lead applied to the surface is a sacrificial layer for the water and wind to wear off over a couple of lifetimes. It stays a fairly consistent colour..

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   seeyou | Jul 31, 2003 10:39pm | #18

   I've bid pre-finished steel standing seam roofs vs. copper numerous times and have yet to install the pre-finished steel. Usually, the steel is within 10% and has sometimes been more, due to the complexity of the roof. Kind of seems like a no-brainer to me.

3. 
   hasbeen | Aug 01, 2003 05:32am | #20

   Wow!  Sounds really nice.  I'm sure it will be beautiful and last a very long time.  It's not that I think it's not a good idea, it's just expensive for most people.  If it wasn't, we see a lot more of it, wouldn't we?  It would add a big percentage to the cost of my new place if I were to go that route.Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

1. 
   talkingdog | Aug 01, 2003 06:09pm | #22

   What's really nice, if you want to talk about fine homebuilding, is to have handmade copper gutters and spouts to go with your copper roof. Now that's expensive.

2. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2003 07:19pm | #36

   Add to cost??/

   I guess so!

   I think I get regfular screw down type propanel for about .7/sf. He mentions copper at 1.38? raw sheets he has to put labour into to form.

   I've seen copper at 3.1/sf. You can spend more for heavy leaded copper, so figure the mateeerial alone can be at least four times as much...

   I always try to look at roofing from a cost/sf per year of life expectancy to evaluate value in comparison to other materials. With copper, most of your cost is all up front. With other propanel type, you will be painting and maintaining eventually so add for that to get a lifetime of value in comparison. Copper probably compares to about twice the cost that way, but it really is a value added quality and style thing too. Out of rane for some neighborhoods.

   Like me..

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   hasbeen | Aug 02, 2003 08:26pm | #38

   Around here I get propanel type for $1.85 LF ($.62 sqr ft), galvalume $2.00 LF, plain galv in same style for $1.50 sqr ft OR paint "blows" for $1.10 LF.  I'm going to use the paint blows for the roof of my shop and carport. 

   Striped multi-colored roofing is in style, right?  ;)

   Experience suggests that pale colors such as gray, moss green, white, or tan don't show the paint oxidizing away.  Dark colors look faded in only a few years.

   That's not rust, that's the "patina" the architect recommended...  ;)Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a carpenter to build one.

4. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2003 06:35pm | #33

   I'd be interested in learning more about custom seamers. I have a two hundred year plus old cape to restore.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   VaTom | Aug 03, 2003 07:35am | #41

   I'd be interested in learning more about custom seamers. I have a two hundred year plus old cape to restore.

   Don't know much about them.  My friend has two sets.  We see them at auction occasionally, usually $2-300 will buy a set.  These aren't custom, just sized so all components fit together.  Just old-fashioned roofing tools that were very common when everybody who couldn't afford slate had standing seam roofs.  No idea if anybody still makes new ones. 

   You start on a floor with a pan former which is a pair of tongs with registration pins, one for each side of the pan.  Pan goes to the roof and the roof guy starts with one foot seamer, self-aligning, that's about 18" long.  Step on the pedal, slide it down 17", step on the pedal....  Then comes the next foot seamer that gives the final fold.  Same sequence.  Tops and bottoms of pans are dealt with hand seamers, soldered if you want (I did).  The most tedious part is nailing down the cleats that get swallowed in the seams.  The copper nails we see don't have much in the way of barbs so we use two, toe-nailed.  As these tools are self-aligning you just keep plugging away, no reason to slow down.

   We find a 2 man crew ideal, one up and one down.  Then switch for variety.  Footwear's the most critical part.  By the time the next pan is formed, the top one is crimped and the cleats are nailed.

   You and Hasbeen assume the same conventional line I hear around here, that copper's very expensive.  There's no good reason I can find to justify that.  Other than it's a rich man's roof.  I've asked quite a few roofers and gotten a load each time.  That wasn't a rhetorical question I posted.  Obviously there's material difference but I wasn't kidding when I posted that we go from rolls to installed pans as fast as nailing shingles.  Increase the cost of the house several percent?  I don't, even on outbuildings.  Considering the labor (and material) savings the next time around, and around, and around and it looks like a bargain on this mountain.  I don't figure I can afford asphalt.  But what do I know?  We're not roofers.    PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!

2. 
   Slater | Aug 04, 2003 01:14am | #49

   Piffin

   Here is the source I've used for seamers.   Well made tools but very pricey.

   http://sheetmetalroofing.com

5. 
   MikeCallahan | Aug 02, 2003 12:01am | #23

   I don't know where you live so this may not apply to your area. I worked for a remodeling contractor for about seven years near Truckee Ca. We get lots of snow. We did a lot of insurance repair and 99% of roof repairs were on metal roofs. The most common metal was made by Western Metal. Other brands had the sme problems too. Most of the problems were from snow. The snow will always let go depending on the pitch of the roof and the depth of the snow. Geologists would call it the "Angle of repose" Common repairs in the order of occurance were chimneys sheared off, most often when the chimney was near the eave. Snow filling valleys will crush the ribs of the metal. Screws back out and shear off when an icy slab lets go, often tearing the metal.. I think the screws back out when the metal expands or contracts in the heat of the summer. I could be wrong.

   The house has to be designed with metal in mind . That means no valleys and all protrusions like vents and chimneys are at the ridge. Entries should be on a gable end and driveways should also not have snow shed onto them. Decks should be designed with impact load considered. Most homes go with comp roofs now because the snow doesn't shed. All that snow coming off a metal roof adds to the snow removal chore too.

   When metal doesn't last as well as comp then it is not a very "green" option especially when it is more expensive.

   Gotta go

   We may be slow, But we're expensive.
1. 
   talkingdog | Aug 02, 2003 01:24am | #24

   How much snow do you get in Truckee?

   Up here in Niigata, Japan (where my cabin is located) we normally get around 7 feet of accumulated wet snow. Houses and roofs are designed with snow as the first criterion.

   This snow problem is a very severe design constraint, as somebody in the village always dies every year from falling snow.

   There's a new state-of-the art building that has a flat roof in the village. Flat roof in snow country? Yes, it's the brute force approach to the snow problem: build the house out of heavy gauge structural steel and just let the snow sit there all winter.

1. 
   MikeCallahan | Aug 02, 2003 03:02am | #25

   The Sierra Nevada parellels the Pacific coast and I hear it gets more snow per annum than any other mountain range in the world. We are lower elevation near 6500' so it is the high Sierra above 11000' that really gets hammered. Average snowfall is usually over 20' here. Not all at once though.

   It is often when a valley will have over 10' accumulation that the ribs will crush. Even ridge metal gets crushed often. Roofs are engineered to hold 200 to 400lbs per SQ FT depending on your neighbor hood. Most modern roofs can hold the weight, so for low maintainance , most builders go with comp. Wood shakes or shingles need to be fire treated and are required to have a skin of fire resistant sheetrock underneath that. We may be slow, But we're expensive.

1. 
   talkingdog | Aug 02, 2003 07:34am | #27

   Our cabin has the old type standing seam roofing, and we have to pay somebody $300 to get up there and shovel that seven feet of snow off in February.

   The new houses around here do not have standing seam roofing. Dunno what it's called, looks like it's lapped watercourses of about nine inches and it's vinyl coated.

   They use this on a roof that is asymmetrical, with one short almost vertical face, then a knifelike ridge that sticks up about 18 inches, then a more gradual slope for the bulk of the roof. The eaves will have a gradual radius (watercoursed metal works well here). Below that there may be a snow containment cage made out of light gauge steel that breaks it up as it falls off and keeps it from landing on people and cars.

   This arrangement keeps the snow from accumulating and clears it off the roof automatically. The knifelike ridge causes the snow cover to fracture precisely at the highest point in the roof. Probably hard to visualize what I am describing though.

1. 
   Piffin | Aug 02, 2003 07:25pm | #37

   It is hard to visualize that, and I'm interested in learning new things from other places. Can you do a scetch or post a photo?.

   Excellence is its own reward!

2. 
   talkingdog | Aug 03, 2003 05:37pm | #47

   You asked for it, a couple of snaps of the many roofing styles employed in Snow Country (Nagano, Japan).

   First photo is a good clear shot of the self-clearing asymmetrical roof, also with the extended ground story (which is usually reinforced concrete--looks like a basement but ain't). Entry to these houses is up the stairs on the second story, because the ground story is dark with snow pack in winter.

   Second one has the radiused eaves so that the snow slides off with no damage, then is broken into three foot chunks by the snow cage, and finally trapped at the ground story

   Third photo shows a couple of houses with asymmetrical roofs with gables on the short side. This having your cake and eating it too.

   Finally, a little bonus, magnificent example of a thatched farmhouse with metal roof retrofit. Metal is thirty years or so old and the thatch underneath is probably a hundred.

   BONUS QUESTION: how would your fir out 18 inches of thatch roof for attaching sheet metal?

3. 
   Piffin | Aug 03, 2003 08:59pm | #48

   ???? Before I read the bonus Q, I was thinking the same thing.

   Excellence is its own reward!

4. 
   talkingdog | Aug 04, 2003 02:03am | #50

   Bonus question ANSWER: I've never actually seen this metal on thatch thing done, but I have seen them attach a ridgepole to a freshly thatched roof, and it's done with a long, curved needle threaded with copper wire. They reach the needle in there and loop it around the acutal ridgepole that is under the thatch. I suspect they use the same thing to fir out for metal, just guessing though.

5. 
   Piffin | Aug 04, 2003 03:43am | #51

   Thanks for expanding my world.

   Excellence is its own reward!

6. 
   Dinosaur | Aug 03, 2003 07:42am | #42

   I just finished putting a metal roof on a 25-in-12 pitch A-frame, over 3" of foam insulation board. Ask my crew how many times in 3 weeks I hollered "THIS IS THE LAST F'ING TIME BY GOD!!!" I can't stand this stuff.

   Ribbed-steel roofing is virtually impossible to do a clean job with, unless you happen to have a roof that has (a) no through-roof fittings; (b) no hips, valleys, or ridges; (c) a dead-square roof deck; and (d) exactly the right width to fit the panels with perfect overhang all around. In other words, it'll work fine on a pre-fab (jig-built) shed roof with no vents that's exactly X panels wide plus 2 inches. Anytime you have to site-cut the stuff, it's going to be a hack job at best and a real botch at worst.

   I've tried every way possible to cut it neatly; shears, metal blades in a jig or recip, special metal-roofing cirular saw blades, pneumatic nibblers, cut-off wheels, you name it. The only way to cut this stuff clean is in the factory with a hydraulic slicer on a jig table. Finally, think about how you're going to install a chimney or vent flashing on that ribbed surface: Gonna get the flashing custom made so the base plate matches the roof profile? How much and how long...? You won't know where the profile will fall on the opening until the panel is installed; can you afford to wait while the flashing is fabricated? You'll wind up chopping as neat a hole as possible and gooking it up with thermoplastic caulk. Real high-end work. Yuck.

   If the roof deck isn't absolutely square, you're either going to have a sawtooth eaves edge or have to cheat lapping your panels more at the bottom or the top to keep from squirting off at an angle when you get to the opposite rake. And you've got to chalk-line the whole roof precisely, and then set the panels to nails driven into the chalklines if you really want it to come out on line. And if someone overdrives a screw into a rib, as soon as you pull the nails, the panel will push past the chalkline anyway.

   The snow thing is important, too. Another post mentioned that entries have to be on the gable ends, vents and chimneys have to be near the ridge, etc. This is all very very true. All steel roofing I've ever installed (except for this last job, because it's so friggin' steep nothing'll stay on it for more than about 5 minutes, including the roofer LOL) have had to have ice barriers installed two feet back from the eaves for safety reasons. Steeper roofs such as 10 or 12 in 12 need two rows of ice barriers. Sun and heat-loss through the roof cause humongous ice-dams on steel roofs, and when they start to slide in the spring, they will take everything in their way with them unless it's built specifically to hold the many many tons of ice that can accumulate. Most people here who have steel roofs remove their gutter systems in the fall--so the ice won't do it for them in the spring.

   Soldered standing seam is an art form; the guys that do this kind of work will see the top of my head as I tip my hat to them. It is not the same at all as ribbed sheet. It's the kind of work that you really should learn as an apprentice to a master for a good five to ten years if you want to do a perfect job. That's why it's so expensive, IMHO.

   There is a third metal alternative that used to be common here in rural Québec: think of it as metal shingles. The 'shingles' are large metal diamonds, about 24-30" square, and they are laid in courses just like any other shingles, with the nails hidden by succeeding courses. There are no ribs. You can work with it basically the same way you would with asphalt shingles, but you'll need metal-cutting tools instead of a matt knife.

   Dinosaur

   'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?