Meter Main Grounding Question
Hello everyone. I am neck deep in a very extensive renovation of a duplex. I was not originally anticipating a lot of electrical work, but the more I look it over, the more I think that it needs some attention. I think the electrical panel may not be grounded correctly.
The main shutoff is outside in a box beside the meter. There is a ground wire extending from this shutoff box to a ground rod beside the house. The main panel in the house is probably fifteen feet or so away from the meter and the main shutoff. This main panel inside has a shutoff as well. It is a 200 amp Crouse Hinds main panel with probably a couple dozen breaker slots, vintage 1981. Not a great panel.
But here is my issue. I’m pretty sure that this main panel inside the house ought to be treated like a sub panel, because the actual main shutoff is outside by the meter in this case. If you treated it like a sub panel, the ground and neutral would not be bonded. But the ground bar and neutral bar in my main panel inside the house are bonded. What’s more, there is no ground wire running from this interior panel to anything outside the house. No wire at all. All of the ground wires from the home’s circuits land on the ground bar that is bonded to the neutral bar, and that is it. Granted, if there was a ground wire running from the ground bar to the outside of the house, I’m pretty sure it would carry current, as the ground is currently bonded to the neutral. And that would obviously be bad….
Does the way this interior panel is treated sound right to you guys? The way it is set up right now, it looks like a ground fault would get returns to the neutral bus bar, essentially.
My suspicion is that the ground and neutral ought to be separate, and there ought to be a ground wire connecting the ground bar to the ground bar outside in the main shutoff where the ground and neutral are bonded. Is that correct?
The house was wired in the mid-80s. Was grounding practice that different back then? Or did they do it wrong? Or am I missing something?
Sorry this is so long. Thank you in advance for any thoughts. I hope I explained it adequately.
Leo
Replies
Yes, the ground and neutral need to be separate. This is a sub panel. You need both a ground and neutral run back to the panel with the main shut off. The neutral needs to be the same size as the current carring conductors. Just the fact that you asked this question shows that you have a good idea what you are doing. At the time it was done it was ok to bond the ground and neutral at a sub panel if the main panel was not in the building. You still needed a separate ground and neutral conductors to the main panel.
Thank you for the reply Mike. I appreciate it. I went out back and took another look at it, and I realize I misspoke a little. The ground isn't coming from the main shutoff by the meter. The ground is coming out of a box on the other side of the meter, where the utility cables come up from the ground into a central box and connect to bars that extend into meter boxes on either side of that box. The house is a duplex. There are four boxes----a meter box, the central box where the utility lines enter, another meter box, and then the main shutoff to the one side of the duplex. There is no ground at all at exterior shutoff to the one side of the duplex. I guess my question is----is that way of grounding that equipment correct, or should there still be a bonded ground and neutral at that main shutoff to the one side of the duplex? I suspect the latter, but with all of that stuff connected, I guess I just want to be sure. Thanks again for any thoughts.
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Maybe the following photos will help. The first shows the four boxes, with the box on the right not entirely in the photo. Sorry. The box to the far right is the main shutoff for the side of the duplex these boxes are attached to.
The second photo shows the innards of the box between the meters. The third photo shows a closeup of these wires to show how the ground is arranged. The last two photos show the innards of the main shutoff in the fourth box to the far right.
There is no main shutoff for the side of the duplex fed by the meter on the left.
My suspicion is that this was never inspected and approved. I see a couple of problems with it and your concerns about the grounding are well founded. I would like to offer up an opinion but I think you need to bring in an electrician for an onsite consult. If the house is being converted to a single family unit, in most areas you can pull your own permit to do the work he suggests to make the necessary corrections. You sound capable. If it's going to remain a duplex, then you'll need the services of an electrical contractor. The corrections are pretty straight forward and shouldn't be too expensive. Good luck.
Sorry to be so slow to reply. Got sidetracked. Just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to respond. I did indeed get a guy to come over and look things over. As you said, it isn't that difficult to fix it.
Glad to hear it.