Check it out here, http://www.toolsofthetrade.net/articles/showarticle.asp?articleID=2332&position=1&type=article&partID=1
Then report back what you think.
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Replies
I read that article when the rag came. I've seen the technique before as well. Here's my "report back".
Mike Guertin is an accomplished craftsman. He's a hands on guy who is out there pounding nails everyday like the rest of us. He's qualified enough with roofing that JLC employs him to travel the country with JLC-Live doing roofing and siding technique demonstrations.
Armed with that information and the fact that I'm a framer and not a roofer I'd say it's as good a method as a cut valley from what I can gather from the article. My only question would be, is it necessary? I don't see snapping a line and cutting the shingles back as that much of a chore. But then, I don't roof every day.
That being said, I don't know how 'time tested' the technique is. I'd try it on my own house. But for a house under my warranty, I'd stick with a more time tested technique. Call me a chicken, but I don't mess around with roofing.... too many variables and too much liability.
Made for an interesting read though.
chicken.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
{G}
How did my article in TOT begin a discussion here? Steve is right - some right handers will have trouble heading the 'wrong' way. I've always been able to shingle as fast right as I can left (slow in both directions).The waste savings all depend. When working into or out of a vally and from or towards a gable will generate some waste somewhere. Where I find the time savings is in the cuting - definately. It's a lot faster for me to make a square crosscut than a diagonal one. But like any technique, it all comes down to what you are used to and the routines you develop. For professional roofers, trying out a new method will not save any time. And if there is any time savings, it may only be seconds. There are loads of different ways to reach the same end result no matter what we are doing in construction. I think it's worth a look at all the ideas and for each person to decide for him/herself. It's the only way the industry can move forward. Some ideas will stick, and some will fail. Heck, in the 50's and 60's all shingle manufacturers instructed roofers to do a true weave for valleys. Then there was this group of people trying out 'cut' or 'California' valleys. Now almost all shingle manufacturers highlight that method. What fastenates me is that the idea didn't come from the manufacturers but from the field.MG
I'm at fault indirectly, Mike.I posted in the tools section a link to TOT. Someone said that's such a job link and magazione that it deserves its own thread, so that happened. And this current home page has a link to your article front and center feature.Your name in bright lights! is Mama proud now?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We use a similar technique with metal valleys. We chalk a line 3" each side of the valley, then nail shingles parallel up the valley following the chalkline. Then roof it in cutting the shingles square where they hit the shingle in the valley - similar to what you had pictured. I have seen it done this way here for at least 5 years, with absolutely no call backs. I have been to repairs where inexperienced roofers did not know how to roof a cut metal valley, and this technique almost guarantees that they can get it right.
At first the valleys looked a bit strange. Most people don't even notice.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
This is a very cool way to do a metal valley. I never considered it. Where is it that you work where roofers use the technique???Mike
I am here in the sometimes very wet Pacific Northwest. I live on Vancouver Island.
I will bring my camera with me and take some pics which I will post.
If it wasn’t for the Bank Payments,
Interest, Taxes, Wages, and Fuel Costs,
I wouldn’t have to charge you!!
Have you tried using a fairly large pair of straight tin snips to cut your laminates?
CU mentioned cutting rake shingles on the ground with a shingle shear which works wonderfully,but it's cumbersome to use on the roof.
An old pair of snips can cut laminates like butter when hot and still perform well in the cold.
My roofing sub cuts a dead straight line on architecturals, in place, using a large pair of shears, when finishing a valley.
Mike,
I would like to hand it to you---- I think it's very sporting of you to jump into this discussion.
you mentioned something that occured to me early on in this thread----but I wasn't going to mention it for fear of insulting someone.
you said" I have always been able to shingle as fast right as I can left ( slow in both directions)
I think that " confession " nails it---and again it's sporting of you to mention it.
I noticed that most of the folks who favored this technique----didn't seem to be operating with roofing as their main game----------- so if they weren't particulary fast working to the right---- this method might be faster.
in contrast----- I experience a sense of bewilderment( I think Piffen may have also)------------- what's all this effort being expended in avoiding something that isn't really difficult or time consuming----- that is, cutting a valley with a hook knife. It's among the basics to us.
I think this all is maybe comparable to painting techniques. I will no longer paint for money( 'though I have often in the past). I am comfortable cutting in---but there are situations that I don't quite trust my hand---so I mask off---knowing masking off will save me cleanup and razor blade time.--- In some situations---masking off is going to be faster for me--------- but it wouldn't be faster for one of my good friends who is a painter and wallpaper hanger. HE could cut in those areas freehand---while I would still be fumbling with the masking tape and paper. LOL
Stephen
You want to here something crazy and you'll probably laugh because I'm a framer. I did a roof about 20 years ago as a kid and I took so long at it when it came to cutting the valleys I snapped lines on all the valleys and slid a piece of 5/4 under and cut the shingles with my circular saw.Joe Carola
You want to hear something crazier? Years ago, when I was a first-period apprentice, I worked on a tract with pre-fabbed roof panels (2'x8' plywood with paper and shake shingles attached). The j-men on the job ran the stuff wild into the metal valleys, then snapped a line and cut through the whole shebang with their circular saws. Yep, shakes, staples, plywood, and metal flashing, all in one fell swoop. I told the foreman I was no expert, but I didn't think they were doing it right. He said "I'm not a babysitter, these guys are journeyman!" End of discussion. Until the first rain. Every single one leaked like a sieve. Then he came back and asked me if I could fix them. I said "Yeah, if I can tear the roof off and re-do it." He told me to take a hike.He hired a roofer to try to fix 'em. Poor guy, up in the attic trying to solder saw cuts in the valley metal from below. Eventually they did the inevitable: tore the roofs off, and re-roofed.
Actually,
it's been some time now
but I used to see adds in the roofing magazines for a tiny little air powered circular saw with like a 3 " blade for cutting dimensional shingles that hung past the rake.
Stephen
As crazy as it was when I cut with the circular saw it did go faster than cutting with knife for me.Joe Carola
>tiny little air powered circular saw with like a 3 " blade for cutting dimensional shingles<Those things were something like $500. They didn't catch on.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
You are probably the only pro roofer on BT. Most of us are generalists with a specialty or two.
and yet they still let me hang out here---which I have always been pleasantly suprised by. LOL
Stephen
Stinger,
Guertin described this in a FHB article a year or 2 ago.
I have used the method on 2 jobs----and I basically see 2 problems with it.
1) I am not convinced that it is just as water tight as other methods. It MIGHT be---but I am not convinced.
2) On some roofs using this method is going to be CONSIDERABLY slower overall.
Imagine a dormer---with a left hand valley and a right hand valley.
If the installer is right handed-----using Mike's method on the right hand valley will be marginally faster----not a lot faster---but a bit faster
HOWEVER---if you are right handed---using Mikes method on the left hand valley will be MUCH slower over all---because it forces you to start at the valley and work left handed across the roof----and the bigger the roof---the more working left handed is gonna handicap you.
Now---on some roofs working outwards from the left hand valley requires only a couple of racks of shingles to reach the gable-------so it won't slow you down all that much---but any time savings on the actual valley will still evaporate----so why use it at all?
and on a big roof you might save 2 or 3 minutes on the left hand valley------ but you will still be fighting that left hand curse hours later as you plod left hand across the roof.
in short----it MIGHT save you 2-3 minutes on the actual valley----but it cost you MANY times those 2-3 minutes elsewhere.
BTW---some shingle crews like to have at least one left handed installer------but the left handed installer shingling left handed---is still not as fast as a right handed installer shingling right handed
this is because the left handed installer is used to shingling right handed more often then not-------and the right handed installer almost always installs right handed.
once again----this method is basically a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist in the first place.
But---this is just my opinion------- I suggest trying it out on a big roof and seeing for yourself.
Best wishes, Stephen
I've used this method for about 10 years and have not had any problems. We mostly do open valleys and use it on them as well. I agree somewhat with the left side/right side speed issue, but it greatly cuts down on waste. All off fall pieces have verticle cuts and can be used elsewhere. Less waste means less packing and cleanup. All in all, I think it's faster. It also eliminates some potential for error, although a guy that's good with a hook blade shouldn't cut anything wrong. I have to admit that I have on occassion cut too deep or gotten off the line. I don't see the need for the tar. Most dimensionals are bottom sealed, so that ought to keep the water out from underneath them. It's also kind of what you get used to. My shingler's didn't want to do it the first time. Now, they won't do it any other way.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
greencu,
the 2 times I used the method I didn't really see any appreciable difference in waste.
Useng my standard method--- I would start at the rake and usually pre-cut " starts" to step it up the roof----ZERO waste. Once I shingle over to the valley---there is some scrap generated in triming the valley---but nothing significant---probably something comparable or less than the amount Guertin consumes running a soldier course up the valley.
however---useing Guertins method---assuming you start at the valley and run out to the gable-------- maybe there is little or no waste generated at the valley----but you have just transfered the location of the waste generating cuts over to the rake. there is gonna be scrap generated---but instead of at the valley---it's at the rake--------------------- and , again I would have eliminated a high speed " gang cutting situation( pre cutting " starts" ) and replaced it with a slower series of individual cuts----get the hook knife out, cut to fit, put the knife away, lay the next shingle, get the hook knife out, cut to fit, put the knife away-----------
I would say----- if someone is interested in using Guertins method---- they should certainly try it. If they find it beneficial to them--- more power to 'em. I do think , however--- if the whole situation is anaylized---there are no real savings over all.
idealy it makes a nice little technique to add to my bag of tricks( like shingling top/down)------ occasionally I run into a situation where it might be handy-------- like if there is only one valley---and it's a left hand valley.--- but the technique isn't so overwelmingly handy that I would usually even remember to use it.
BTW--- you DO have to be carefull in some situations where you are doing a valley with 2 un-equal pitches---a steep side and a much lower pitched side. the resulting offset automatically developed by the valley may not be sufficient.
also BTW Greencu--- I agree that the extra stip of tar is an un-needed step( evaporating more time savings)---and may cause more leaks than it would prevent.
specifically--- I see the potential for leaks caused by water trapped and unable to drain out effectively from underneath the tab portion---water which entered from the side butt joints and which would ordinarily drain right back out.
just my opinions, Stephen
Stephen,I'm not arguing with you. You may be right in a gable to valley plane. We get a lot of valley to valley and valley to hip planes to deal with. We try to use the straight cuts generated at the valleys to make books for the gables. I can also (as can my shinglers) lay a 3' shingle strip parrallel to the valley without a chaulk line. One other small step eliminated. Personally, I use your method of precutting on the ground for gable books (with the shingleshear). I normally shingled by myself, so the less packing and the less work up on the roof the better. But, using this technique is not gonna make or break anyone. I think it looks a lot better from the ground, especially with heavy laminates. We don't use it with tabbed shingles.
On the shingles run down the valley, we overlap them a 1/4" or so. We also do this on our starter strips at the eave.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
greencu,
I can't imagine a situation where you and I are ever really gonna get in an argument.
You know----one thing to consider is WHO is actually laying the shingles.
when I work alone or with a single helper---- I generate VERY little scrap. a 20-30 sq. roof will generate less than a single trash barrel of scrap.
But when I bring in a sub crew---they can sometimes generate 3-4 times as much--or more.
somehow--- I can do a roof using 21 squares---but the sub crew needs 22 square to do the same roof----and of course they want paid for that extra square----even though it's tossed in the dump truck.
I have one open bundle at the end of the project---the sub crew will have 3-4-5 open bundles scattered around-----thats maybe over a square that could have been returned for credit.
so---If I know in advance a sub crew will be working on the project---- I build a lot of extra scrap into the price.
Stephen
You speak about waste.
Are you bidding the roof labor and materials?
I never have done it here but theres drywall savings too that actually speed up time by technigue. Thats a huge project explaining that so Ill refrain in this thread .
Tim
>Are you bidding the roof labor and materials?<I can't answer for Stephen, but I bid a complete job, including materials. I use unit prices (so much per sq labor to install on a 2 story 12/12 roof plus the price that I sell the shingles, nails, felt, drip edge, etc, for). I pay my installers by the sq. A technique that speeds them up and at the same time keeps them from cutting corners benefits me and the sub. The more units they install in a day, the better both of our profits are.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
>I can't imagine a situation where you and I are ever really gonna get in an argument.<Those are fightin' words - don't make me come up there.............Seriously, though, We often have different ways of accomplishing the same thing. I think in some ways, I've been able to surpass some of my teachers by combining the best parts of several of their methods. I've always stayed friendly with the best of my competition. We can go out to a ball game together, have some beers and shop talk, and we're all better for it the next day. I learned a little and taught a little. I think often you and I do a good job at giving two perspectives on the same situation. One might work better today or for this guy, one might work better tomorrow for that guy.Get Piffin, Mike Smith, and the Slateman involved, and the right answer is gonna be in there somewhere.Cheers.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Wioth computers, theree are always at least three ways to do any one thingBut with roofing, there are generally five or six optional methods that are all correct, when done well. Valleys is just one example. I choose how I run a valley based on the type of shingle and the style of the house. I always get a kick from the guys in some forums who insist that their way is the only way...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
greencu,
I agree. I am willing to steal a good idea from anywhere.
I stole the roof cushion idea from a sub years ago.
someone else mentioned cutting valleys with a big set of tin snips.
I have done that as well---in fact I cut valleys that way---even just 3 tabs for years--- but eventually I just gravitated to hook blades.
Personally--- I prefer an exposed metal w valley ( you and slateman have hammered me on that in the past)--- but I more often then not sell a cut valley now as I sub out more and more work----and my subs don't like the slightly extra work in a w valley.
BTW--- I think Tim asked if I am bidding materials AND labor.---the answer is virtually always--- it's a lump sum price direct to the homeowner( no new construction). direct employees are paid hourly---but subs are paid it seems on squares consumed--- so there is more waste than if I do the work with my own hands.
stephen
We've been using Mike's valley technique for a while now, and we do notice a time savings. No callbacks and no one can tell the difference from the ground.
I was originally leery of using this method until we repaired several roofs on high-end homes after Katrina. I was able to get into the attics of a few and even though there was nothing but 15# felt under the valley, none of the plywood showed signs of water damage.
Another poster mentioned the difficulty in cutting arch. shingles in cold weather--he has a point, and this eliminates some of the problem.
As for tarring the valley shingles, I've never done so for the same reasons Hazlett mentioned. You already have so many layers of shingle in the valley that tar is just unnecessary. Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
haz makes some great points. meshing the layouts above a doghouse dormer would be a nightmare doing this and it might destroy the layout of many shingle styles.
I have one more to add. I have a predisposition to hate alpped and woven style valleys, primarily because they create a noticeable hump in the finished surface of the roof.
Therein lies my largest objection to this method. Shingles that would make this method the most time advantageous - the heavy layered archies - are also those that would create the most obvious hump running alongside the valley. That to my eye is very ugly for a roof that customers are paying a premium for. It amplifies the fact that this is an asphalt composition roof with shingles that are supposed to imitate the look of wood or slate. if you are spending good money trying to emulate a high prioced look, why use a method to make it look cheaper?
I have done a method very similar on cedar shingles and shakes with a metal valley to avoid cutting, but not on high end houses. With wood, the layout is random anyway, so starting with corner point to the valley doesn't bother.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Glad to know it wasn't just me thinking along theses lines........................
Ice and water under the valley, I guess there's a 'little' room to experiment.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
The best reason I can see for using this technique is when you are installing in cold temperatures and cutting is a real b_ _ _ h, and have lost skin on knuckles many a time. I can also see that it could save couple trips up & down the valley and accidental cutting / damage into lower shingles. Did job this fall, wish I would have tryed it.
IF IT WAS EASY, EVERYONE COULD DO IT!
one advantage would be for DIYs who don't have a cutting technique that avoids poking holes in the valley.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I have used that method one time.
I used it because that was what the manufacturer's instructions on the shingle package detailed. If I recall correctly, they were Tamko shingles.
The one variation was that I wasn't wedded to starting the shingling in the valley and moving away. It was no bit deal to shingle into the valley and cut the last shingle to the appropriate length.
For me, it was a lot quicker (but I am rather slow in general) and I was really surprised how good it looks. It is very hard to see the difference between it and a cut valley.
That roof was a year and a half ago, so still pretty new. But there have been no call backs.
Rich Beckman
Another day, another tool.
Rich,
If you are not going to start in the valley and work outwards
but rather start at the gable and work over to the valley---and then cut the last shingle to fit--------- where are the time savings?
you haven't eliminated a cut.---in fact you have replaced what is in fact a pretty fast cut---snapping a line and "gang cutting" the entire valley at once--------- with a bunch of slow cuts, one by one----getting the hook knife out---making the cut--putting it away, laying the next shingle, getting the hook knife out, making the cut, putting the knife away---------
I don't see any overall time savings---in fact it still looks slower.
just my opinion, stephen
Stephen,Ahhhh, but I've never managed to get any type of decent cut in any kind of decent time with a hook knife. Not in cold. Not in heat.So I cut them individually already, from the back with a straight blade.So cutting a straight cut rather than an angle is a lot faster.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I have used that method exclusivly for about 4 years encompasing about 25 roofing jobs. Has worked very well and have had no problems. I live in South Dakota land of 4o mile an hour winds, snow, ice, sleet, and rain. No problems to speak of.