I got a call for a room addition. Seems like the real thing, nice home, people have some money, don’t want to spend a lot but want it done right. 500 sq. ft., no plumbing, single story with loft, bedroom for grandma. Basically extending the right side over about 15′ more to the right.
But they don’t have plans. I told them I could give them a ballpark, but no firm bid without plans. I’m gonna go by the city tomorrow and see what they require in terms of plans. Every time I send a customer to a draftsman or architect, I never see ’em again. So I want to do the plans “in house”, if I have to go buy a drafting table and draw it myself by hand, which is probably what I’ll end up doing.
The h.o.’s have a friend in L.A. who is lic. struct. engineer, I told them to check if they’re lic. to practice in Kern County (no idea how that works).
So how do I present my proposal to get paid for design work?
“…craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit.” – P. Korn
Replies
call me tomorrow and i'll tell you how i do it and fax you a copy of my design proposal
based on what i've seen of your work, you have a great eye, and great instincts
your work in SU is great.... can you draw it in SU ? and print with SU ?
got a ball-park on the completed value ?.... do they have a budget ?
can you help them set a realistic budget ?
got an estimate of how many hours you think it will take you ?
if you get the design... and you structure it right .... you get the construction, like night follows day
Thanks Mike I will contact you tomorrow. I planned on designing in SU, then draw it by hand for the city. I do have a few questions which I'm sure I can figure with some help, i.e. is 12" footing OK for single story with loft, and how to vent/insulate a vaulted ceiling."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Have you considered hiring the design portion out? Similar to subbing out plumbing, or electrical?
500sq ft addition ...
why sub that out?
if you can build it, you can draw it.
just draw what yer gonna build.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Have you considered hiring the design portion out?
At this point I don't have anyone in that position - I have a few people I send customers to, but lately when I do, I never see the customer again, so I want to do it myself."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
>> have a few people I send customers to, but lately when I do, I never see the customer again, so I want to do it myself.
Had the same problem many years ago durring the busted ecconomy of the Carter administration. I adpated by not sending a customer to the designer. I hired the designer and he worked through me. That also gave me more control in keeping them within the proposed budget for a project.
BTW if you do the design yourself, do not give up the drawings without a written contract either as part out of a design/build or or design for fee. I made that mistake once and just happened to see my "job" get built by another contractor a year later. He was even using my original set of prints.
Oh, the lessons I learned the hard. There are as many ways to fail in this business as there are to succeed. Think I found most of the ways to fail back then.
I think I would have sent them a bill for the design and drawings. I do enough work for free.
Rich
Your local copy company,like Staples, can take the drawing from graph paper and the graph lines disappear if your pencil lines are nice and dark. You dont have to use ink. As far as cad,check with your local college that offers cad. The instructor can recommend someone. What college person wouldnt want to make a few extra bucks.
Keith
atrident: Your local copy company,like Staples, can take the drawing from graph paper and the graph lines disappear if your pencil lines are nice and dark. You dont have to use ink.
That's what I was thinking as I read through this thread. I've been too old fashioned, so far, to learn how to use a CAD software system so I still draw on a board, using graph paper and simple drafting tools.
Kinko's and some other copy places have architect quality printers which will enhance and enlarge your drawings on graph paper, eliminating the lines and leaving you with professional results.
They can also save your work as a file on their computer and/or put the file on a CD or your flashdrive so that you can have your drawings on your computer.
I go to kinkos with my drawings and have them enlarged and then laminate them.
Then you can use dry erase markers to highlight and make changes.
This copy can stay on the job site and I will make notes in different colors for the subs showing what and where I want.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Edited 3/6/2009 10:02 pm by ANDYSZ2
Another useful item for those who draw, this portable drawing board: http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/448681/Staedtler-Parallel-Straight-Edge-Drawing-Board/
I've been using this board for about ten years and I'm very pleased with it. The built-in straight edge is much easier to work with than a T-square, making it simple for clumsy drafters like me to get lines straight and square.
Using graph paper and this board, drafting goes fast with very few errors.
Office Depot has other drafting tools by Staedtler. That company makes good stuff at fair prices and Office Depot discounts the suggested retail by 20-25%.
Thanks that will make a great gift for my son who is taking architecture.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
You might want to run that idea by him, see what he says. Depending on his level of study, that board and/or Staedtler might be looked on as novice grade equipment, the same as drawing on graph paper is for "real" draftsmen.
As I said, the 18"X24" Staedtler board and moving straightedge have made it easy for me to draw quickly and accurately. It's folding legs and handle are ideal for limited desk space too. I can pick it up and place it against the wall on the floor, then set my notebook computer up again in less time than it took to type this sentence.
But hey, if he doesn't like it, you've got yourself a new tool.
Yeah, some kids like the fancy arm set-up with the square over the parallel edge.
Do architecture students draw anymore?
k
They draw all the time in their first year.They also review your portfolios repeatedally as you progress through school.
He had no training so during his first semester he had 18 hrs of credits and two of his artistic friends teaching him how to draw for 2hrs a night.
As much as I have dished architects I will say anybody who has accomplished said degree has earned my respect.
The curriculam and demands of their time are just incredible, plus the ability to be critiqued and called out by your peers and teachers daily without losing your cool is amazing.
ANDYSZ2
WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Yeah, I got my BA in architecture at Cal. You're not joking about the amount of work. You didn't necessarily have to be a genius but you had to work, work, work. The engineering students worked about as hard as us, but almost no one else did.
I'm glad they're still learning drawing by hand. Something about it makes it more informed than doing it on a computer. Course, I wish I was better at CAD, too.
k
never saw that ... that's fantastic.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yep, it speeds up the drawing process a lot. And it accepts the largest size graph paper, big enough to draw large floor plans or elevations.
Huck,
We draw up a Design Agreement and have the plans drawn for the client upon their agreement to it. I then meet with the engineer on site to help him design it how I want to build it. He makes money, I make money and the HO gets a set of plans even if they don't go with us.
Just my two cents
Mike
so, does the engineer draw the plans, or do you draw them and he just stamps them?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
I'm in Florida so EVERY drawing needs to be signed and sealed by an engineer or archy. State building code rule.
So they draw them as even if I were to draw them, they would REDRAW them to their specs, title block, etc. I wouldn't save anything that way.
And just as an FYI, a set of permit ready prints here costs me around $3-5k so thats why I tell the potential clients they need to be serious about the project if they want to go to that step.
You're generally right about the engineer's stamp. (No architect required, but that P.E.'s wet stamp is gold). But even in seismic N. Ca. we can do some small additions without an engineer if all the details are standard.
But that's for the actual prints, anyway. Huck needs conceptual drawings first.
I have no doubt he can do the basic design himself, on graph paper, or whatever. It'd probably be worth hiring a draftsperson to make Huck's drawing look pretty before hitting the clients up for the engineer's fee.
Try design schools in the area. you can often get students to work cheap, if you're giving them the design. DO NOT let an architecture student "improve" your design, though. Just make it look pretty.
k
KFC,
Yep here in FL we need signed and sealed for ANY permitted work. Its a headache as the permit threshold is usually around $1,000. In some jurisdictions, they push for a permit for a shed! Nothing like spending a grand on drawings for a $500 building. Ridiculous
(And oddly here, it cannot be a wet stamp but a raised one!)
I like offering the folks the idea of the signed and seale plans as I "sell" them on the idea that once they pay for my time and the plans, they can take those and build it even if I am not the GC. Makes it a bit more worthy to them than me sketching something that is not good for much for permitting.
In addition, if a beam needs sized or something structural, I cannot by law do that (even though by skill I could) So once again an Eng or Arch needs to be involved.
Mike
Yeah, it's pretty much the same here. You need a permit for just about anything, and anything more than a normal stud wall and normal footer needs an engineer. I don't know if that applies to Huck's project. If it's a fairly normal addition he may or may not need that stamp. If, as you say there are beams to be sized, etc. he obviously will.
It sounds like you're really selling a design package, which is great. I get the feeling in Huck's case, tho, he's using the design as a means to an end, namely getting to build the thing. So, while he needs to get paid for all his design time, he also needs to keep the potential clients interested until he gets the larger job.
hence the idea of a relatively cheap initial concept, nicely drawn, with rough rough estimates based on a range of finishes. make it purty, keep 'em interested.
then, get them to fork over the 5k for the construction drawings, with the engineer's stamp. concurrently, Huck should be able to get a firm cost as he works it out with the engineer.
then, he gets to build it!
k
KFC,
Yep, I agree as I think you and I are on the same page.
What I tell folks to sweeten the deal is the cost for the Desgin Agreement is subtracted fronm the total job if they chose me. Has worked 50% of the time thus far. The times it hasn't worked, usually the folks don't do the project at all. Heck, one couple even called me to tell me they sold their house and moved as it was better than spending the money on the huge addition they wanted to do and added the $3k they spent on the design helped them make up their minds as they showed my plans to three other guys and got higher bids.
Mike
I know everywhere is different ...
but I can draw simple plans for a permit on the big pad of graph paper.
straight ruler and mechanical pencil and off we go.
I just make a rough sketch and then make a nice neat one that's to scale.
just show everything that's going in with all important measurements.
I've never had a problem.
can't find my tablet at the moment ... did a quick net search ... saw some 27x34
sounds about right.
the size I use you could easily fit a 500sq ft addition.
just draw it by hand ... same format as "real" prints.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
and ya don't need someone elses plans anyway.
If you know how to build it ... just draw what you intend to build.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
straight ruler and mechanical pencil and off we go.
That's a good idea, it suits me fine and I think that's exactly how I'll do it, if they'll let me. I'm gonna go ask the city tomorrow about that."...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
I've had other guys tell me they were required to have printed prints in same locals that my hand drawn prints have gone thru just fine.
I'd not be suprised if some places demand "real" prints, but I've had good luck so far.
I do elevations and show the customer / inspector as much info as I can.
the bigger pads of graph paper make it easier with the 1/4" size grid.
I'll usually make a copy of the floor plan, lay it out and sketch in pencil, then go over nice, neat and heavy in pen.
also do the same for each elevation.
Those are my patterns.
use the old grade school trick of laying a fresh sheet over top and use the outline for my pattern so I'm not starting from scratch for each sheet.
Had one job where I was going to show the customer a bunch of options for a back porch ... so I drew a good elevation of the back of the house and Kinko'd about 20 copies .. then drew on those. Sped things up.
I'll even break out the color pencils for the big customer proposal/presentation.
Just like the TV car shows ... Chip Foose got nothing on me!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Jeff, Huck is southern CA. You are giving him an idea based on your experience in your own corner of the world.
The AHJ where Huck may do the work may require plans with full engineering, everything done by professionals licensed in the state, etc.
This, no matter how small this dormer bump may be.
For Huck: my read on the biz of drawing plans and getting engineering for same, is that the level of work has fallen through the floor, particularly in the markets where the housing hit is the worst. Those markets in include SO CAL, SO FL, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and for some reason, Wash DC. That means there are plenty of pros available to do this, and quickly and at low cost.
Plan on paying for no more than one full day of work, which will include the on-site measurements. Bury the cost in your own proposal, marked up as you would any other subcontracted item.
Mike Smith and I both use Chief Architect software, and Chief has a "seeking services" part of their web forum, Chieftalk. A post there will generate a quick response. I have two guys in mind right now that would do this for you, and they will likely respond to your posted call for help.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
I just talked to the building department today - they're actually pretty lax. What they require is a site plan, a floor plan of the existing structure at the point where it adjoins the addition, a floor plan of the addition showing elec., an elevation, a footing detail, a framing plan, & a roof plan. Engineer's stamp if its over 10' (it is). All this can be hand-drawn, doesn't even have to be to scale, as long as it has dimensions.
Under 500 sq. ft., they said it will be a couple hundred for the permit. Over 500 sq. ft. gets hit with school tax, plan on at least a couple grand for the permit. "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
"I know everywhere is different ..."
I guess you skip the first sentence of each post?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The way I've seen it done is you incorporate design into your card. Design/build, build/design, whatever.
If you don't have the time or inclination to do the drawings you can get a designer/ draftsperson to do the drawing for you.
They just do the drawings/ designs on a as need basis for a fee.
You take all the responsibility for the design and build.
i worked in L.A. for a while and we had a guy that would draw plans for us.
he did them for a few people as near as i can remember.
i worked in L.A. for a while and we had a guy that would draw plans for us
I need to find someone like that - wonder how they linked up with this guy?"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
bakersfieldremodel.com
It was a LONGGG time ago. As far as I remember he was a Bachelor in an apartment with little to no overhead and his prices reflected that.
They are out there. I'll bet it was all word of mouth.
One thing. If you get a guy like that you might have to run interference with more outgoing customers.
The guy we knew was doing small remodeling plans. But I imagine that kind of guy could stretch a little with some help from you.
I've had good luck letting some of BT's finest (mcdesign and piffin) do my plans for me. Local permit office very accomodating. Sure, AHJ's are different everywhere.
Some digital pics and back and forth emails, and yer in buisness! I much prefer that to the hand-drawn graph paper sketches I used to present to a H.O. Of course, your artistic abilities FAR exceed mine.
Hope you land this one Huck.
David
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
That worked for us, but there are reasons I would hesitiate doing it for Huck. His California location is proime reason - licensing, liabilities, seismi and other loal design requirements...Deedubya contated me and I have similar reasons to hold back there because it falls into commecial....Huch is doing really good work with his SU CAD package and this might be the motivational job he needs to make it part of his business. I ould go on all day with stories of how I got the job or up-sold the job because of being able to do 3D presentations and produce faster than sending it out.So I think Huck needs to do his own on this and just get in a little reaseach on local requirements.
It is not right for all, but I enourage him to get into it and gedt his feet wet
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Huck when you land this one, are we going to see a photo essay of the work?
ML
Huck, thanks for flattering me by mentioning my name with Mike's in a call for help. I was instantly curious about what Mike and I had in common other than our political persuasion LOL!
I can already see that everyone else has given you some great advice and you don't need anything more from me but that never stopped me from adding my two cents.
All the above answers are right including the idea to submit a simple draft on paper. They've all worked for me in one form or another.
Be careful to understand what the big picture is however...getting the addition. If you land the design contract and deliver a low quality set of prints, you might knock yourself out of the picture to land the addition. This does not preclude using a hand drawn set of plans but it will require that you have some skill in drawing on paper. I suspect that if you applied the same approach to hand drawing that you do in some of the work you've posted here, you'll be fine.
Another idea would be to sketch out the plans and have a CAD service do the final drawings. The CAD service wouldn't be involved in the design or specifications in any way...they'd simply be the guy on the board doing the dirty work. You would be able to negotiate a fixed price for this service based on the sketches. Depending on the detail required for the city, I think you could get these types of CAD drawings done for less than $500; give or take a little either way. The benefit of this type of arrangement is that you'd have a polished professional set of construction docs that would impress the clients and make you look like a seasoned professional. Those docs would also be relatively easy to update if you make changes later in the project.
You could advertise on Craigslist for a CAD person like this. It will take some sifting to find the right person but they are out there. If you don't find anyone, shoot me an email. I might find time to do the CAD work for you.
Last but not least, I would suggest that you nail down the design contract, then invest the earnings into a professional CAD program for yourself and your future projects. Then, invest the time to learn to do it yourself. Programs such as CA or SP are very important tools in the residential remodeling business. They add a different dimension to the relationship you have with your clients during the bid phase as well as in the construction phase. I updated the tile design four times on the last bathroom I did and the end results were a well informed and happy client. I let her make all the tile layout design decisions and she could easily see where all the potential "less than perfect" tile cuts were going to be. This gives me, and her, a lot of peace of mind and that alone is well worth the price of the software.
One caution: learning the new software might take a significant amount of time, even if you have a tutor of some type. My first set of plans was a virtual nightmare even though I managed to get them onto paper and get permits with them. The simplest item sometimes took me two or more hours to figure out. I'm lightning fast now on the simpler tasks but there are still significant challenges for me on some drawings. Like anything though, the investment of time today will pay dividends tomorrow.
which do you prefer CA or SP?
I've never had any experience with Softplan. I have Chief Architect version XI. In fact, I have two licenses and have decided to sell the second license.
Nothing to do with plans but; with Grandma on the second floor talk to them about a residential elevator. Our age gives one a different perspective on 2nd floor for seniors. Now is the time to think about it.
last year I got a call for an addition. I am proficient with autocad, although I do not reccommend autocad for anyone just starting out, but I knew I could whip out some nicely detailed drawings
a friend who also builds was finishing up an addition where he hired out the drafting. I borrowed his prints for a day just to nail down the format, since he had already been approved
I drew the entire house with and without the addition in 3D. then I printed out various viewpoints and glue sticked them onto "D" size drafting paper. then I hand lettered everything. took those to the lumber yard and made copies feeding the whole mess into the blueprint copy machine. the end results were pretty good. 2 pages, views at every elevation, some 3D views, cut-a-ways, foundation plan, etc.
between the other format and my sketches the building dept was much impressed and fast-tracked my approval
Just go down the the building department. They'll tell you exactly what you need. They probably have a handout for you.
You can easily do the drawing yourself if you're so inclined. A P.E. can stamp it for you. A lot of structural engineers want to do the drawing phase themselves and they're more expensive anyway on account of the extra credential.
By the way, I'm in California also. The engineer's calculations for something simple like you're describing shouldn't cost more than two bucks a foot. And that's the high price.
I didn't read your post very well Huck. I see it's a single story. I doubt you even need a stamp for that. Check with the building department. I'm sure they'll set you on the proper path.
FWIW Huck, I was just told by a local inspector(Cleveland) that I can submit drawings and as long ad they meet the requirements of the 2006 Residential Building Code that no engineer stamp is needed.
Example: if code says I can span 2x10's 14'2" and I need them to span 15' I would need a stamp.
This looks to be a pretty straightforward design for you, a great opportunity to get your feet wet.
have turned stuff in here ... stuff that needed engineered ...
I drew everything as per my norm ... and simply stapled the engineers paperwork to the stack of papers. I drew what the engineer came up with.
again ... everywhere's different ... but like someone else said ... stop in and ask.
People got permits before computers were invented ... stranger things have happened.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa