I a passionate amateur who has built several additions and am finishing my first full house for myself. I do all the trim and have basic-to-moderate woodworking skills. A thought occurred to me regarding buying versus making something simple like shoe molding. With a 1×8, I figure I can make a passes with a router and saw and get 7 pieces of shoe saving about 80% on the cost. I need to run about 1000 feet of base and shoe molding so the savings will add up.
Do professional trim guys ever do this or is it just easier to buy simple moldings?
Edited 3/13/2007 2:19 pm ET by Mojo
Replies
Bump...
I am having a friend mill an entire house worth of moulding out of mdf for me and saving me a ton of money including paying for his labor. The moulding is craftsman style so there is a lot of flat pieces, but he is milling backband and shoe. Once you set up the machines once you can run pieces pretty quickly. If you don't mind mdf, you can probably save some money. Give it a shot and if you are happy with the results, keep going.
Most folks refrain from making their own. While routers are OK, you really need a shaper to make the more complicated moldings. If you are painting the molding, it is almost always cheaper to buy it as the mill usually finger joints paint grade product. You can get a decent piece of wood for a reasonable price.
On the other hand if you plan to stain the wood, you have to price out the species you are using - it might be cheaper to make it yourself. Mills usually have access to fairly good runs of straight, clear pine boards that you would end up paying a premium to purchase. But using hardwoods does change that - you can shop a couple of hundred board feet and possibly get a decent price.
One mill I deal with uses clear poplar for paint grade custom work and the wood is cheaper than pine. Make or buy has already been a perplexing question regardless of whether you are building cars or houses - you have to weigh all the variables and the product you end up with.
You didn't figure any value for your labour if you think you can mill wood on a router as cheaply as a mill.
I use a milling machine made for the job and it still costs more to make millwork than the big joes. I do it for custom work when I cannot buy what I need.
another thing to consider as an ameture - I assume labeling yourself as such is an indication that your router may be a handyman quality and not a professional duty machine. Constant use of the lower grade tools with plastic bushings will mean overheating and early burnout. One of my favorite routers for balance and use is an old B&D but the seat for the brushes overheated and failed. I managed to rebuild it with epoxy but I don't use it for heavier millwork now.
That is also a reason for 1/2" shank routers. The greater mass lets the router work easier and disperse heat better and stabnd up to all day running. It is not just for throwing the weight of the larger router bits.
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Thanks for the replies. I work with my father-in-law who retired from a career in construction so I am blessed with a shop full of professional quality tools. I definitely understand the argument about my time and what it's worth. This is more about experience and pride. I definitely couldn't make a living at it with the pace I go but I am happy with the results.
I hadn't seen this come up before so I was really more curious as to what the pro's do. I think I'm going to choose one room and try making some of the moldings.
Thanks again.
If I were to mill my own trim I wouldn't be spending time on quarter round, one of the least admired mill work you'll find. If it's crisp clean edges you're looking for to use for a center attraction and can't find it from a supplier go ahead & make it but time is money. Even though it may be a hobby this little tasks that seemingly save so much money contribute to wearing you down and delaying the finish of the product. I think your time & energy can be better spent on more important things than making quarter round/base shoe.
When we are doing jobs, we often have off rips of flat stock anywhere up to 1-1/2" wide of other wise waste that I always stock in a bin hanging fromthe ceiling joists in my shop. Then when I have spare time, I mill them to screenmold, and scotia. It barely pays for my time, but it keeps plenty in stock and makes me feel better that I'm not wasting lumber
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if your time does'nt come at a premium and you're having fun then theres no question. to stand back and admire your handy work is very gratifying
on the other hand you asked what the pro's do. it would be the death of my business if I had to stand at the shaper to produce long runs of mouldings that I could easily pick up at the lumber yard
but if I needed 1000 feet of black walnut or cherry quarter round then the upcharge would need to justify my time
FWIW the stock feeder on my shaper will run 26 feet per minute on 5/8" quarter round in poplar
a lot of molding comes in 16 ft fjp, can you get 16 ft 1x8's.i don't think you want to scarf 8 footers everywhere in your house.
The real Q is does he have a setup that can handle 16' lengths?All that wood bouncing around can introduce more chattermarks to the finished product.
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All the fjp here comes in 16 footers. Whether it's the best way or not I have a fixed 16ft bench to clamp a workpiece and run the circular saw over it. I get better results with this than trying to put it through the table saw as Piffin correctly suggests.
So I get it that it simply does not make financial sense for a pro to take this approach. The money saved in materials is lost in time. The exception may be with various stain grade species.
Thanks for all the input.
I have a Jet planer-molder that will easily do small moldings . The only time I mill my own is when I can't buy the trim in a specific hardwood.It does not pay me to mill standard pine or poplar paint grade trim. Actually when I figured in the cost of the stock,shop time and utilities, then prime the molding it is cheaper for me to buy primed fingerjointed base.That being said,if you have the time and the machines,go ahead and have fun making your own.
mike
I have to agree with the other posts.
Even if you have the time, not the money, (that's always the equation) you will still likely produce an inferior product when all's said and done. It's not worth it for simple base and shoe.
Another thought to consider is the safety risk when running off that much stock with the requisite whine and dust of a router. It's really not the right tool for the job unless you've got an autofeeder and proper dust collection.
Is this stain grade or paint grade? I know that I couldn't touch paint grade, even if my materials were free, for stuff like 1/4 round and shoe mould. The preprimed fj stuff is cheap, saves lots of time both in making and painting. Comes in 16' lengths, too, which is much nicer on the install.
I would mill my own if I had a good reason- like the wood came from my property, or I couldn't find the right species or profile. Otherwise, I would use my shop time to make something like furniture, and work a little overtime to pay for the moulding.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Mojo,
I do my own stuff. I can buy the needed wood for around 80cents per bd ft. in the case of quater round I can make 12 liner feet of quarter round for 80 cents.. That's for white oak, cherry will cost me $1.65 for 12 feet. and pine is only 40 cents for 12 feet..
Plus I can do stuff that you simply cannot buy, custom made window trim stools etc.. Ever see hackberry? I can use it or boxelder.. Now boxelder sometimes has these wicked looking red lighting strike looking streaks in it that are absolutely stunning in the right application.
The world is filled with the dreary and boring.. if you want that sort of life you'll earn more on a production line someplace.. you have an opertunety to do something creative and interesting..
Do you really want to waste it?
That was downright inspiring. If you'll excuse me, I'm heading over to the workshop.
The price you are quoting that you can make it for is the wood only and counts nothing fop rblades, electricity, your time, etec.
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Piffan
Nor does it count for the satisfaction of doing worthy soul gratifing work that you can take pride in.
If you boil it all down to dollars and cents your life amounts to a adding machine tape.. if you do worthy work that touches your soul and fills you with pride that can't be added on a ledger but will make your life richer.
It's your life, how are you going to spend it?
I don't spend it. I invest it. Part of it I invest in helping people hereBut that's not the point. I likle milling and do a lot of it . I'm not arguing here against you or anybody else doing it.
And I posted earlier how I save lumber instead of wasting it in worthy ways.But I also think it is impoortant to be clear and honest, nbot leaving the impression that the ONLY cost you have in the product is the bare cost of the lumber before milling it down. If you are going to talk cost, include all of it to be right. Then a person can decide if it is what they want to do or not.
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Piffan
That's simply not possible.. My costs are not going to be the same as yours are. I buy wood direct from a sawmill, if he buys it from a lumberyard or big box store his prices are dramatically higher than mine.
I have no idea what my electric costs are per lineral foot . A few thousands of a cent maybe.. My realestate costs are massively higher than some rented commercial space would be. I've yet to need to sharpen any of my cutters so I don't have the faintest idea what my per lineral foot costs for sharpening would be.. it's got to be tiny fractions of a cent. I mean the decimal point five or 7 digits to the right of the dot..
I'm not trying to be an accountant, simply offer a differant perspective..
I am remodeling my 1966 house right now, and ripping out all of the ugly painted trim, replacing the crappy slab doors with pine units. I am also thinking of milling my own trim in a A&C style for the whole house. Mostly simple with maybe a chamfered edge, etc. Simple crown for some rooms. Here I can buy relatively clear pine cheaply, and it will go well with the bamboo and slate flooring (I think). I could buy oak for what they want for crappy paint-grade millwork around here. So I am gonna make my own and see how it comes out.
Nick Andrews
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
I get shoe so cheap from my supplier (18¢ per foot for clear) I don't think I could buy the rough wood cheap enough to justify making it.
buttkickski,
Assuming pine shoe at that price, my cost for the material would be .0333333 cents per foot..(slightly over 3 and a third cents per foot).
If the shoe is white oak the price is .066666 per foot for material.. cherry will be .1375 cents per foot, black walnut .1208333,
Now if you calculate your labor, equipment, lights, electricity, taxes, realestate costs and every thing else I'm sure you can figure out a way not to do it..
Doing it yourself isn't about the absolute lowest cost . It's about pride. Doing something differant, special.
Don't worry nobody will force you to do something outside the norm. Especially if it's just another job..
There is nobody that I know of besides you that will be at all proud of home made shoe molding!If he wants to do something special with his time, then he should make his own main entry door...now that's something to be proud of.
Buttkickski,
I used shoe molding because that's what's being discussed and priced..
You bet he should do more than show molding but that's the beauty of doing your own molding, you are only limited to what your immagination will concieve. I have a shaper but even a router can change the exposure of the bits and do some really wonderful things.
Building a entry door is a little more of a challenge, but do-able with a little ambition and effort..
With a pile of wood you are really only limited by time and immagination..