what the different between mineral spirit and paint thinner?
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Replies
one is purer than the other as in strained...
more bucks ... cleaner stuff...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
now where does turpentine fit in ?? and is the mineral spirits is the more pure.if i bought the thinner (if that the lesser of the two) would filterering through doubled coffee filters do the trick..... why i ask is i do alot of spraying....."expectations are premeditated resentments"
tups is the low end of the scale...
I don't see why not but I don't think you filter out anything to make note of..
now to get Goldhiller in here...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
tups is the low end of the scale...
Really? Heck, I had been treating it as the high end. I buy it when doing indoor work here as an aromatic treat to my self. I thought it was some kind of natural product from pine trees.
Turpentine is from trees. It does the same thing and has more oil in it and less driers, especially gum turps as opposed to steam. It smells though.
I find that odor to be pleasant. Uplifting.
all three are...
ceder tree sap...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
say what you...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Thanks for the vote of confidence there IMERC, but…….my fingers is too numb yet from outdoor work today to hammer away on the keyboard for long, so I'll let some of these other folks do the talking tonight.This from Michael Dresdner….In our last Reader's Response, a correspondent declared that paint thinner and mineral spirits were essentially the same product ... mineral spirits have been refined at least one more step to make it odorless. But according to Michael Dresdner: "FYI -- this is incorrect. Paint thinner and mineral spirits are in fact two names for the same product. Both of them are refined the same amount, and NEITHER of them is odorless. There is a material called "Odorless Mineral Spirits" but that is something else entirely. It consists almost completely of isoparaffins, as opposed to the wide spectrum of alkanes used in mineral spirits and/or paint thinner.And this from Mr. Nestor Kelebay, a man with both an educated understanding of finishing coatings and an ability to then impart that knowledge to the average layman.The person who told you to mix your floor paint and mineral spirits 50/50 and use that as a primer "to help the paint penetrate the wood better" and thereby achieve better adhesion to the wood has the best of intentions... but doesn't understand the difference between a true oil based paint and an alkyd paint. Back in the days when oil based paints took 2 or 3 days to dry, the binder in the paint was boiled linseed oil. This is a relatively big molecule, but it's still small enough to penetrate well into wood for excellent adhesion to that wood. In fact, part of the reason for thinning real linseed oil based paints with turpentine instead of paint thinner was because turpentine evaporated much slower, and that allowed more time for the oil molecules to penetrate into the wood. Nowadays, "oil based" paints are almost all alkyd paints. The only drying oil finishes you can get now are from artist's supply stores that still sell linseed oil, poppy seed oil and walnut oil based paints, tung oil for oil finishes on bare wood or boiled linseed oil itself for painting wood that you want window glazing putty to stick to better. All the other "oil based" paint you buy is "alkyd" paint. Those clumps of oil molecules (called "alkyd resins") are simply too large to penetrate well into wood no matter how much you thin the paint and no matter how much time it takes for that paint to dry. The alkyds are simply too large,10 or 20 times larger than an oil molecule, and consequently aren't absorbed by the wood the way oil is. Since thinning alkyd paint won't improve penetration, there is absolutely no advantage in using a slow drying thinner like turpentine to provide ample time for that penetration to occur. All you do is increase the drying time of the paint without improving it's penetration. This is why alkyd paints are thinned with mineral spirits instead of turpentine; the penetration ain't
gonna get any better with a longer drying time, so you may as well have the paint dry faster. All of the mineral spirits you add to alkyd paint to thin it will evaporate from that paint as it dries. However, not so with turpentine. Turpentine is made by distilling pine sap or steam-distilling pine wood chips, and so it consists of a mixture of different stuff that was in the sap. Now, some of those things in the sap also contain those unsaturated sites found on drying oils, so that some of the turpentine ends up being chemically bound up in the paint it's used to thin. Incorporating those lighter things from the turpentine permanently into the paint film gives the paint a bit more softness and flexibility so that it doesn't become as brittle as fast. I'm presuming thinning alkyd paint with turpentine would impart a bit of softness and flexibility to alkyd paint too, but I've never seen or read anything to confirm that. I just thought I'd mention that turpentine isn't strictly a thinner....... in that all of it doesn't evaporate the way mineral spirits all evaporates. It affects the flow and leveling of oil based paints, it promotes good adhesion cuz of it's long drying time, it makes the paint softer and more flexible, but it doesn't make it stronger or harder at all. Consequently, turpentine doesn't "fortify" paint, it actually makes the paint a bit less hard and strong, but it does make it a bit more flexible, so it's easier for it to move along with the changing dimensions of wood.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 1/26/2005 10:19 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
let me clear up my question. I need seven gallons of nineral spirit for my parts cleaner, remember I do more mechanic work than wood. Here mineral spirit is $5.85 while paint thinner is $2.69. see my point.
I'd be buying the $2.69 stuff for that purpose.Since mineral spirits and paint thinner are basically/pretty much the same product, consider it a bargain buy on mineral spirits.I gotta say that I'm not sure I agree with Michael completely either. Is this frowned upon? LOL I think it depends upon whose product you're buying as to whether there is a difference in product refinement/purity. I've seen some difference myself in using one brand of mineral spirits to clean a brush and another brand of paint thinner. Same paint product with same brush in the same type of condition when headed for clean-up. One cleaned up that brush lickity split while the other didn't. Had to work at it more and it still didn't get the brush truly clean. Resorted to follow up with some lacquer thinner and didn't buy anymore of that brand of paint thinner either. It wasn't a vast difference in performance, but I noticed "some" difference.This analysis is experiential, not scientific, I'll admit.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
did a call to SW tech ...
spirits is impurity filtered one or two more steps...
we're talkinking 2 to 3 microns here...
the rest is marketing...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
so use the thinner...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Has anyone chewed you out for using this in a parts cleaner? It's hardly worth the risk to save a piddling few bucks over the correct fluid.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
the parts cleaner ask for mineral spirit. the parts cleaner is mine, and the extra 45 dollar is a lot of money
Can you tell us about VM&P naptha....
Not really.Sorry.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Take it from a former seller of petrochemicals and oxygenated solvents (components of lacquer thinner) here is the straight scoop on mineral spirits and VM&P naphtha:
Mineral spirits is an aliphatic petroleum solvent defined as having a flash point in excess of 100 degrees fahrenheit, an initial boiling point of around 300 degrees and an end point (temperature at which the last fractions of the mixture boil off) somewhere between 350 and 400 degrees.
VM&P is what used to be called varnish makers and painters naphtha. Naphtha is an old name for any aliphatic solvent blend. VM&P naphtha is similar in character to mineral spirits but it is a lower boiling product, in the 250 to 290 degree range and usually has a flash point of less than 80 degrees. VM&P is useful, by the way, in cold weather painting with oil based paints because it will evaporate faster and so prevent sagging and runs. It is also a major component of cheap lacquer thinners.
Flash point is the temperature at which enough vapor forms above the liquid that a spark can cause the vapor/air mixture to flash or explode.
Paint thinner is typically made of straight mineral spirits, but sometimes may be blended with some aromatic solvents for better solvency. The solvent properties of straight mineral spirits varies considerably depending on the crude oil from which it is refined. Gulf crude from Texas is high in straight-chain paraffins with very low solvency properties and mild odor. Mineral spirits from West Coast refineries tends to have more isoparaffins and cycloparaffins which are stronger but also smellier.
Lacquer thinner is much stronger solvent than paint thinner because, in addition to VM&P, it contains some aromatic hydrocarbons like toluene and xylene along with oxygenated solvents like acetone, MEK, butanol, various acetates (ethyl, butyl, propyl, etc.) and glycol ethers; all of which are powerful solvents.
So, aren't you sorry you asked?
BruceT
Ya got' a good web ref site that shows molecular size, ring structure, etc for various ingredients and percentages in typical commercial solvents?
My first few hits didn't give any links to commercial solvent composition per se. , although there is some good basic background info in them for anybody interested in this subject.
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/y/wyg100/fsc432/lecture%202.htm
http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/y/wyg100/fsc432/lecture%202.htm
http://homepages.wmich.edu/~esubers/Chapter%2012%20Notes.htm
http://www.fire.org.uk/glossary.htm
http://www.uic.edu/sph/glakes/harts/HARTS_library/solvents.txt
Wow, you sure did your homework!
I don't have any websites to offer, just what I know from being in the chemical and paint business until 12 years ago.
BruceT
"So, aren't you sorry you asked?"Not at all! Thanks for taking the time to offer your knowledge; such posts are what make this a great forum.
another thanks i got this ear marked.... that what this place is alll about.."expectations are premeditated resentments"
SW tech support or their webb site will bury you in information...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
guess that was already handled..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
The difference between turps and paint thinner is that thinner tastes great, but turpentine, less filling.
Ahhhhhh.
mineral spirits are wonderful for charcoal starter, and cheap too.
and the wood cook or heating stove
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
that thinner tastes great, but turpentine, less filling
"Take a mouthful of sugar and drink a bottle of turpentine..." Canned Heat
I know, I'm an old fart. Hey, they had things to say about Denver cops that were exactly mirrored my experience.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
you still drink sterno out there in VA? Now that's canned heat.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" Let behind the eyes, that which one talks"
Rumi....
Got a bottle of Virginia Lightning that we save for guests. It's pretty close. Taxed hooch, not good 'shine.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
What an astute post!Now, sometimes I have used kerosene to clean up brushes in a pinch. Can you comment on the difference between kerosene and these other solvents?
Kerosene is similar in some ways to mineral spirits, but it is refined as a fuel, not a solvent, so it has higher boiling and flash points. Basically it is more oily, closer to diesel than mineral spirits and doesn't evaporate cleanly.
BruceT
Becareful with all solvents. Oders are signs of volitive sustances that are nasty for your lungs. Regular paint thinner or mineral spirits being less refined can have a strong order.Just becasues its a clear liquid doesn't mean its ok to breath. Home depot carrys a LOW order mineral spirits for about $4.60 a gallon which is much better as far as orders but if you have a sensitivity to even that Utrecht art supplies http://www.utrecht.com sells a orderless paint thinner for around $17 dollars a gallon which is truely orderless."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Not quite true. Odour is simply an indication of how sensitive your nose is to the compounds in question. There are lots of odourless compounds that can kill or harm you, and lots of smelly compounds that are totally inocuous.
In fact, odour is a desirable feature! Since all of these compounds are of some health concern, it's better to give your body some signal that they're there so you'll do what you're supposed to do: use proper ventilation and supplement with an organic vapour respirator if ventilation alone isn't doing it for you.
Odourless "paint thinner" or "mineral spirit" solvent mixtures contain lower concentrations of branched and olefinic hydrocarbons (hydrocarbons with carbon-carbon double bonds) and lower levels of sulphur-containing hydrocarbons. The olefins and the sulphur compounds are the smelliest. The low-odour solvents have been hydrotreated to remove them- this extra step in refining adds cost.
The lacquer thinners are smelly because of the aromatic compounds and oxygenated hydrocarbons that are in them. Some of these compounds are considerably more toxic than the paraffinic compounds in the mineral spirits, and again the odour is a good thing as it warns you of their presence.
You are right, moltenmetal. In fact some of the oxygenated solvents used in lacquer thinners smell downright delightful. Methyl amyl acetate smells like apple juice. Isobutyl isobutyrate smells like raspberry candy, and another in the adetate family smells like ripe bananas.
BruceT
Tell me about it. As a rookie in petrochemical sales I was easy prey for tricks played by the guys at the bulk storage terminal. One day they asked me to help them by checking out whether there was dirt or debris in the bottom of a 20,000 gallon tank car of ethylbenzene that had just come in. "Sure", I foolishly said, "What do you want me to do?" "Just open the hatch and look in." they told me. When I said I couldn't see anything they advised me to stick my head as far down inside as I could so as to block the sunlight and let my eyes adjust.
Ethylbenzene has a rather pleasant odor, almost sweet, and its vapors have a powerful intoxicating effect rather like alcohol. After a couple of breaths I was higher than a kite and it was pure luck that I did not fall into, or off of, that tank car.
BruceT
unwashed construction sand to play sand...
heavy oil base that has a ton of trash in it in comparision...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Turpentine is in theory distilled from pine sap/oil/whatever.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turpentine
one is purer than the other as in strained...
Which one is purer? They look they same and I thought they were the same.
thinner...
I tink they look the same too....
same fer smell...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
PS...
they may not be chemically the same... but I'm not a chemist..
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Very little.
Paint thinner (here) is about $2.65 gal while Mineral Spirits run about $1.00 gal.
Laquer thinner is a whole nother ballgame.
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com