Mini-duct estimate…does this sound ok?
I’m finally getting some bids on a mini-duct system for my ’29 house. We have about 900 square feet on the main floor, 500 on the second (a finished attic) and there will be about 500 square feet finished in the basement at some point.
I have a few questions regarding the first bid (just looking for opinions).
The first bid was for $9000. This includes about $500 worth of mini-ducts that *I* will be doing all the labour of installation. This leaves about $8500 for the contractor to install a 2-ton cooling unit, the blower, and a main return duct (about 20 ft). That seems like a lot, especially when I know of others getting central air added to their forced-air systems for about $3000. Is the Unico blower unit/cooling unit that expensive? If so, why? What makes it different than a standard forced-air add-on?
They also recommended that I only have 2 ducts and one mini-return in the finished basement (which will be 3 rooms). While I’m sure it will be cool, I’m more concerned with the basement being adequetly dehumidified. They recommended that we also use a dehumidifier. Does that sound right? Should the AC be able to handle the dehumidification on it’s own?
Finally, he did the estimate at our house prior to me getting the window awnings up. Would adding awnings drastically effect the tonnage calculations?
I’m going to be getting one other bid for comparison. At $9000 we may skip the Central Air and go with a $500 window unit. I really hate those window units, though…
Replies
On the AC/dehumidifier thing -
The AC could probably dehumidify the basement, if it was running a lot while it's hot outside. But as the seasons change and the Ac doesn't run as much, you'll probably need the dehumidifier.
Can't really contribute to the rest of it..........
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Print your post off and call him up and offer to buy him a coffee. Then show this to him and ask for an explanation. If he is any account it will be no problem. You doing some of the labor could be scaring him. Usually if I do a job like this I figure extra to answer all the questions and for redoing a bunch of stuff so it's right. Sorry... but that's how it works in the real world.
Wet Head
Ain't that the truth I usually tell people who want to do some of the plumbing or heating themselves.
If I give you a quote with you doing some of the work. The quote will be higher than the quote with me doing all the work. This is usually followed by a puzzled look by the homeowner and the first words out of his mouth are usually. "How could it cost me more you won't have as much work to do". No but I'll be here longer because by the time I tell you how to do it, then show you how when you don't understand my directions. My first year apprentice could have finished it.
Not to say I have not done jobs where the homeowner did some of the work themselves but these jobs are done by the hour.
Kevin
Darrel,
Sounds expensive to me. Do you have access for real ducts? If you can use a conventional system, I would recommend doing so.
Also, kinda following along with what the others said, let them do it all, you'll save no money "helping". I had a system installed last fall, and I "helped" by doing clean-up and cutting holes through floors and walls where I wanted ducts to go. In the end I saved $400 running the LP gas line and everything else made no difference.
"....While I'm sure it will be cool, I'm more concerned with the basement being adequetly dehumidified. They recommended that we also use a dehumidifier. Does that sound right? Should the AC be able to handle the dehumidification on it's own?"
This system is to be installed with a single thermostat, right? No zone dampers or anything elaborate.? The reason the basement is different from the rest of the house is the loads it sees. Typically below grade (or mostly so) with little glass to boot, basements don't need much cooling compared to the rest of the house (or heating either) so the air supplied is limited. And so is the ability to dehumidify. If you run enough air in the basement to dehumidify, you will over-cool.
As far as the loads with or without the awnings, he probably ran no calculations, but guessed. On the other hand, 2 tons is not an inordinate amount of cooling for 1900 sf (1400 above grade).
Thanks Tim.
We're going to get another estimate for comparison. In the end, however, we may just stick with another window unit for this summer.
We could use regular ducts, and I think I may look into that a bit more seriously, though the way our house is arranged, the mini-duct system is just so much easier.
I probably agree with you in not helping. It sounds like the duct work is only $500, and pretty much all I'd be doing is drilling holes.
Of course, I could then guarantee that the holes are where I want them ;o)
Darrell, maybe these guys have a point with their comments regarding upping their bid for homeowners assistance, but frankly, such cases grind my *** and in my opinion, cost them both a job and reputation.
I've just completed an extensive renovation involving every trade imaginable. I found the HVAC guys the most arrogant, unreliable, and borderline incompetent among all of the trades used.
Now I'm sure there are many very good ones out there, but someplace in the HVAC apprenticeship program, there has to be a course on how to "Disrespect Your Customer."
Throughout my redo, I got involved with 6 different firms (not counting the ones that came out to give a bid and never came back or did not respond at all). Once I finally got a guy to replace my furnace and install AC, it took him 3 weeks to even start the job (I was totally without any form of heat during that month of January and I started the bidding process in August), and another 2 months to finish it. Even then, I had to fight with them to install more than one cold air return. And at that, they used 14" insulated flex crammed into a makeshift soffit for the main return line. I shudder to think of the internal air friction within that line.
It really ticked me off to get that type of workmanship coupled with the holier-than-thou attitude when I knew damn well they weren't doing the job properly. But I had no choice. No one else would do the work and I was freezing.
If I had to do it over again, I would run the ducts myself and when done (that's the key word - When Done), have the job bid to simply hook the air handler to them. Now of course, that means proper duct size. We're dealing with the internet here and many competent guys helping out on this website. That sizing infromation is available for someone willing to search and do his own engineering.
I say get your window unit now to buy you some time. Then plan your installation carefully. Install the things where YOU determine it is the best considering all other functions within your home. Then call everyone in town to give a quote. And then study the quotes carefully so you are comparing apples to apples (so it's not a one ton Carrier vs a Ford 350). Then have the best 3 requote after letting them know someone else's best price.
I normally don't like to treat subs like this. Frankly, I feel it's disrespectful. But in my 25 years of homeownership and remodeling, this trade has taught me to behave this way. Like I said earlier, I'm sure there are some good ones out there, it's just that I haven't ever found any.
I am in the process of completing an AC install in a 3000 sq foot house with three zones and two compressors, one 3 tone and one 2 1/2 ton. I cut-in all the vents and installed all of the electrical, the HVAC contractor that I hired took care of everything else. I am paying him $7200.
Stonefever and Lumberjack:
Thanks for the info.
Stonefever...I've only dealt with a few contractors thus far, but have experienced some of what you said. The AC guy seemes reasonable, though is estimate, even though I requested it, didn't line item anything, nor explain any of the calculations.
In my line of business, our quotes tend to be pages long, with line items and descriptions of each process. We find it a necessity as without it, you leave room for the client to question things. Maybe that's not the norm. I don't know.
Lumberjack: That's a telling number. Thanks for the info.
To clarify, this is a Unico Mini-Duct system. So it does include the installation of the condensor, evaporator AND blowing unit. Is anyone familiar with the Unico blower unit? Is it some sort of proprietary, expensive unit that is causing the steep price?
Darrel:
My system was a standard setup with full size ductwork. I have been involved in the trades for about 15 years and I don't think that you are going to get the kind of quote detail that you are looking for. I'd get a few more quotes before you make the plunge. On my project, I had one quote as high as $18,000. He later called me to reduce the price. I never returned the call. Good luck.
"My system was a standard setup with full size ductwork."
OK, I'll bite. What exactly is a standard setup?
Darrel,
Unico's blower is proprietary. It's very well built, too.
Figure a hi-v system to cost you about 15-30% more than a conventional system. I think they are pretty easy to install, but the materials cost is simply higher.
There's usually some form of tradeoff, though. With the install going faster than conventional, some installers knock the labor price down which can somewhat offset the higher cost of the Unico parts. Some installers don't discount at all.
Cha-ching.
It's tough to diagnose a bid over the ether, especially in a remodel. In my area, ballpark is about $3000-3500 a ton.
It's not really a remodel in that I am the one running all the duct work. All they are doing is installing the main blower, outside AC, adding about 20 feet of main return and hooking everything together.
That's not to say it isn't worth $9000, of course, it just seemed high in comparison to retrofitting forced-air with AC (which around here can be done for about $1500, it appears).
If the Unico system is a well-built proprietary system, then odds are that's where the expense is coming from...fair enough.