I need to replace an old, noisy, undersize Fedders heat+cool window unit and the new mini split heat pumps look like a good solution at $750 for the kit including the lines. BUT, the local yokels are quoting around $1500 for the exact same unit with installation. How difficult is the installation? Is it worth $750?
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Replies
can you link us to the unit...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Unless you have a vacuum pump good for 500 microns at least, gauges, and EPA license, the split part of your description makes it non-DIY. Even with R410A and no EPA lic., you still need the vac pump, etc. The equipment needed can be had for under $400 watching e-bay, and you can get a lic. for 'not for hire' work for a $25 on-line test. If you know nothing of refrigerants and not willing to spend at least a couple days self educating yourself, you will likely have a poorly operating unit or even trash a unit you install. If you want to make the effort, you'll have the knowledge and equipment for decades. Once yu've made the education effort, then the mini-split makes no sense and you should go with a real unit and flex ducts.
Going with a thru-the wall self contained unit(no refrigerant lines to connect and charge) is a simple DIY.
>then the mini-split makes no senseArt, can you expand on this, please?
"Once yu've made the education effort, then the mini-split makes no sense and you should go with a real unit and flex ducts."
If he bothered to educate himself, the flex duct part would also make no sense.
>the flex duct part would also make no sense.Can you expand on this please?
Flex duct, in my professional opinion, is the vinyl siding of the HVAC industry (i.e. scourge). It is cheap and easy to install and inferior to the sheet metal duct that it replaces. Both (vinyl siding and flex duct) are fine within their limitations and if installed properly. Reality, with both products, is somewaht different.
Just one professional's opinin. I've seen way too many poor installations of flex duct to like it.
Thanks. Do you have a thought on mini-split?
From a personal perspective, I don't prefer the looks of them in houses. From an equipment cost standpoint, a standard forced air system (furnace, coil, condenser) is less expensive, has the benefit of moving and filtering air, the option to humidify air in the heating season, and relatively inexpensive heat. The installation of a GFA system is obviously more involved and more expensive, depending on the duct design/layout.
In other situations, such as when a computer server room is created in a space that was never designed for such, they are the perfect solution. In the instance of a conference room that has an design occupancy of 20 people 250 working days a year and gets 40 or 50 the other 10, its also a perfect solution for supplemental cooling.
In an older home that has hydronic or steam heat, it is a good alternative to the common options (hi veloctiy, window units, no a/c, or a hack job).
A note on the asthetics, some of the newer models are very stylish, though a little on the pricey.
The multi-zone versions are also very nice, and when add up all the costs, comparable to zoning a GFA system.
The mini-split has no ducts. There is an outdoor compressor unit and an indoor wall-mounted fan/evaporator and they are connected by two copper lines. The outdoor unit gets 115V (I will provide the drop), and the indoor unit plugs into a wall outlet. I'm willing to pay a professional for their services. It just seems that a $750 mark up on a $750 unit is a bit excessive considering it involves about 2-3 hours of work. It's as though they're charging the same installation fee for this 2/3 ton unit as they would for a full house system. But then HVAC guys always did seem to be a cocky bunch ;-)
Edited 2/17/2005 12:11 pm ET by TJK
I know what a mini-split is. I'm wondering why Art (Junkhound) doesn't care for them. I've seen him here for years, and know him to be a straight-shooter, so I'd like more of his thoughts on it.As for the contractor's charges, it seems like you're treating their fee as equivalent to an hourly rate, without accounting all that they are responsible for, including training, tools, transportation, taxes, insurance, workman's comp, and on and on. Timbo, what else am I missing?
I paid $270 to have a hole cut in a 10 inch concrete wall. The two guys that did the work used a $60K saw and spent a total of two hours on site. They were professional and I felt they charged me a fair price, all things considered.$250 an hour for a jamoke with some guages, a vacuum pump, screwdrivers, torch, and a company shirt is excessive, IMO.
Mini-splits: Don't care for mini-splits due to indoor fan noise, but have to admit I've not tried any for 10 years, so I may be out of date. Every unit I've been exposed to in hotels/motels (at least 50 a year) is the next worst thing to the thru the wall units.
I don't do any HVAC for hire (some on aircraft, but thats a different story) and only do installs, etc. for family and neighbors for material cost. Essentially got grandfathered in when EPA rules went into effect in early '90s.
The $750 install would be a good deal from any pro in the Seattle area, if you could even get them to bother with you having purchased your own unit.
One neighbor pin-holed his 4T condensor (backed into it and shoved a sheet metal screw into the coil) so figured to move it to the other side of the house to avoid further events. He did the new pad, rerouted the elec and refrig line, etc. He went to get a quote for brazing the hole in the condensor, brazing the lines 6 places, evac, and recharge and was quoted $2000! Did it for him for the $30 R22 cost, he reciprocates with help to DW when I'm gone. Only took me 2 hours (plus leaving the vac pump running overnight, etc.) but there was also probably $1000 worth of tools involved, and there is obviously no warranty.
As to flex ducts. I dont care to bother with ductwork except in own house, but did install flex into friend of family's house next door to mother's house in Illinois (2 story solid house only appraised at $12,000) - would have been a very poor investment to spring for good ductwork. ($200 vs $1500). Also put some vinyl siding on the back of that house even though I'd never touch the stuff for my own house - just shows there is a place for all the technologies. The flex fed from a 12 Seer 4T Goodman HP, gotten off ebay scratch and dent, total installed cost after rebates under $1500 including the flex ducting, new 200 A service and feed to power it, etc. No reason to put any more than that into a lower priced house. The house had been vacant for years, old coal furnace removed in the 70's.
PS: any $12,000 house in IL would bring at least $200,000 anywhere/any area in metro King Co. WA, if only for the infrastructure and the lot.
Thanks, Art. My curiosity is be/c of what I design. When you combine compound curves with an open floor plan, ducts are not particularly friendly, if you can imagine. Been checking out things like MultiAqua lately...they are fed via 1" pex and have a fan coil with a whisper fan in the room. My friend the HVAC contractor (might be a jamoke, but never thought of him that way) is a fan of MultiAqua. There's a similar company in Seattle area...BioRadiant...but clients have complained about their very high prices.
Don't confuse the standard hotel PTAC to a ductless mini-split system. Not the same animal. The hotel/motel version is Packaged Terminal Air Conditioner (PTAC). Mass produced as cheap as possible, noisey and usually inefficient. Basically, an overgrown window unit built into the wall under a window in most cases. Modern mini-splits of any decent quality are a far cry from that junk.
I am NOT defending what could very well be gouging on the local yocals part, but make sure that you are comparing like fruits. Is the installation quoted for the exact make & model? Does it include any electrical materials, such as a weatherproof disconnect at the condenser, wiring to code and the labor of an electrician?
A standard grade 1T singe zone unit to a contractor will cost about $800 with a line set. If the installer marked it up 30%, paid an hour for an electriction plus about $100 for wire, breaker, disconnect & misc., paid an installer $45/hour for 3 hours, (all maked up to cover overhead and profit) then the $1500 installed and guaranteed price is not outrageous.
If I can buy the mini-split with lines for $750, I'm sure the HVAC contractors can do at least as well pricewise, maybe better. I'm providing the electrical drop and disconnect box. All they need to do is throw down a pad, hook up the line set and outdoor wiring, and plug in the indoor unit. The prices they quoted me for the exact same model with installation range from $1485 to $1720. (To be clear, they _are_ purchasing the unit for me)A similar thing happened last year with a boiler. I was quoted $6.5K-$8K to replace a water heater and boiler with a direct vent, wall hung unit and storage tank. I did it myself for $3.5K, and the system meets code and works perfectly. The total work involved was about 80 hours. An experienced mechanical tech probably could have done it faster, say in 60 hours. That means the HVAC guys are expecting around $50-$75 an hour for labor on larger jobs, and IMO, that's a reasonable rate. But on this smaller mini-split job, they seem to want $200-$250 per hour, and to me that is just plain gouging.
I was just checking. Sounds like you have a good point. But, the license to buy and handle refrigerants keeps the competition in some segments of the industry minimal. Anyone with a pipe wrench and some basic plumbing skills can install a boiler. You can thank the EPA for the restrictive practices concerning HCFC's. Keep looking, w/o an attitude and I bet you'll find someone reasonable. BTW, is there a particular make and model involved? Just curious.
Edited 2/22/2005 12:38 pm ET by Timbo
"How difficult is the installation? Is it worth $750?"
If you have to ask, then its too difficult. Don't mean to be disrespectful but that is the short and sweet version. Is it worth $750? No, but the price includes a markup on the equipment, wiring and installation. If you bought a system and installed, wired and ran the line set and just wanted to pay someone to connect, evacuate, charge and startup the system, $250 to $300 would be reasonable. This would depend on your relationship with the contractor and willingness to forego any warrranty. It's the honey vs vinegar thing. If you would expect them to back it up for a year if it doesn't work, let them buy it, mark it and install it.