Hopefully, the last question from me on my new roof.
New arch shingles, felt, drip edge, etc installed over stripped roof of nominal 1×6 (not tongue and groove) sheathing. Shingles were gun nailed in and several missed the wood and got the gaps between the boards. So these nails are essentially just nailed into the felt (and the shingles). I don’t think there are any shingles that are only nailed to the felt – I think they all have some nails that are into some wood.
How big a problem is this and is there anything to do about it short of having the roofer, strip and redo the roof – which I’m sure he won’t go for???
Thanks for tolerating the many questions.
Replies
Not a roofer, but there are lots here.
One question for you. What kind of guarantee did this guy give you and do you think he'll be around to honor it? Might solve a lot of the questions you have about the job he did.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I have no questions about his character but I don't think any roofer would want to redo a job. He's been in the area for years and he'll be here for a while, I'm sure. 5 year waranty on his end + whatever shingle company gives which I've heard is generally difficult to get them to honor.
5 year warranty on workmanship doesn't seem all that long for a roof. Round here we insist on 20 (actually a lot of the banks insist on 20).
What I was driving at is if you trust the guy and he'll be around to honor his warranty, them let him do his job and trust that he knows what he's doing.
I have to punt to the roofing experts.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>5 year warranty on workmanship doesn't seem all that long for a roof. Round here we insist on 20 (actually a lot of the banks insist on 20).Never heard of such a thing.I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. I think I'll start a club.
http://grantlogan.net/
Hey CU,
You have now. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
I wouldn't have a problem giving one, but most roofers don't stay in business 20 years. One of my biggest competitors hides all his equipment and files bankruptcy ever 7 years and then re-opens with a slightly different name.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery? http://grantlogan.net/
Edited 4/3/2006 6:37 pm ET by seeyou
Bob, In the years i spent roofing we always sold new sheathing on any job wtih spaced planks. In Colorado the wind risk can be too high to gamble with a roof that has glued itself together yet(asphalt strips). Was the roof 4 nailed or 6 nailed? Might make a difference. Again follow the manu. specs and all should go well.
I assume you're talking about composition shingles. Around here, it's code that comp roofs must be layed over solid decking. Sounds like you have skip sheathing, which is common for wood shakes.
He's got solid sheathing - it's 1x6. The nails he's concerned about have hit the gap in between the planks.I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. I think I'll start a club.
http://grantlogan.net/
I wouldn't fret about that too much unless every single course is hitting the cracks. I used to have my guys hand nail on planks and gun nail on sheet goods. Now, they gun nail everything, but shoot a minimum of 6 nails per shingle, vs. four nails when hand nailing. Hopefully, your guy shot some extra nails in or got slightly above the line like it often happens.
http://grantlogan.net/
I agree with seeyou. I won't worry about nails hitting the seams, unless you really do have skip sheathing, in which case you have 2" gaps and not seams.
Seeyou -You've been looking out for me the past few days. Thanks for the input. I tend to fret about these things, but as you say, all of the shingles that I can see are mostly nailed into wood - its the occasional nail that finds a gap. I'm not sure how many they shot per shingle. But sounds like this isn't a disaster. Nice website, by the way.
What did you wind up doing about the missing underlayment you talked about earlier?
Like Seeyou I always hand nail a board deck and only use air nails on a sheet goods deck.
The trouble with nails not into boards is that they will work upwards over time and wear thru the shingle above.
The next day, when they were finishing up, I had the guy redo that part of the roof that had the missing underlayment. It was a pretty small area and it only too him 10-20 minutes to pull off the shingles, put down some underlayment over the gap and reshingle. Glad they did it and glad I asked them to.I've heard that about the nailpops. I just don't know what "over time" means. Does it take 2 years off a 30 year shingle, or 15 years off? I imagine that's hard to answer because it probably depends on environment, etc. I'm not really sure what else to do - I can't see all the gaps because the attic is partly cathedralized, so I can only see upper 12' of a ~15' slope. What would you do in this situation (as the customer, not the roofer)?-Bob
Do you have a 5 year warranty?Keep a close eye on the roof and if you see spots where the shingles are being lifted slightly-then that will indicate some nails popping up.
It does compromise the shingles somewhat,but it's anybodys guess how many missed shots there are and how long it will take to adversely affect your install-if ever
You know I'll be watching it. Thanks for the explanation.As a total hack solution, I suppose from inside the attic, I could epoxy the missed nails to the adjacent boards to keep them from popping - but I'm not sure what other problem that would invite.Keeping an eye on it is maybe the best idea and then I'll see if I need to do something.
I agree with slateman that the missed nails might work back up, but they might not. Also, a 30 year archy shingle is significantly heavier (weight and thickness) than a 20 year 3 tab so the chances of a nail that's just thru the felt popping thru or pushing back up are minimal. The nail would need purchase against something to move back up.If they're just hanging in the gap, they'll probably continue to hang.I like my sandwiches with three pieces of bread. I think I'll start a club.
http://grantlogan.net/
If it's only a few shingles you could have the roofer renail the shingle and keep the nails about an inch higher than they are supposed to be. That should get the nail going into the meat of the 1x6 and out of the gap.
lot's of roofs around here with board sheathing.. usually 1x8 t&g... and lots of occasional gaps.. or broken pieces
if the gaps are big and numerous we sell an overlay job.
if they're small and occasional we just take extra care..
that being said.. i inspect a lot of roofs with board sheathing.. and a lot of attics ... nails thru just felt do not upset me or worry me..
messing with them will cause more harm that good
and i don't subscribe to the theory that they will pop.. the wind might .... might... tear the shingle off if the other nails don't hold around the culprit
most nail pops are nails into splits or cracks.. the wood is solid enough to push.. but not solid enough to hold the nail
the nails into the felt i think the whole thing just flexes.. and the weight of the shingle is enough to keep it in place
most nails that i find pushing up thru a shingle were never nailed solid to begin with.. they were skipped .. too much speed and a bad technique ... happens more often today with nail guns than it used to with hand nails
a lot of roofers go over thte board sheathing and nail pieces of flashing over the small holes.. like knot holes and spit-outs..
occasionaly i'll see a nail thru one of these patches when inspecting attics.. but if i go on the roof i don't see nail popsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I love unanimity. Sounds like everyone agrees that its not a big deal. Mike, I was considering cathedralizing the attic in the manner I've seen you describe here with netted cells and some sort of air barrier - not for sure yet just an idea - so that's why I was concerned since finding a leak will be harder. We don't need to go into that here, but that was the motivation.It sounds like if there are any problems from this I have a halfway decent chance from seeing this from the outside.Thanks everyone! - from my wife as well
-Bob
Just as a follow up...I called the roofer today because there were 1 or 2 shingles that had a whole row of 4 or 5 nails into just felt at a particularly wide gap, and I had wanted him to fix that. He said they "double nail" all the shingles - that is each shingle is nailed on its own and then gets a second row of nails when the shingle above it gets nailed. So I guess that's not a problem and no fix needed.These are Certainteed Landmark architectural style shingles, by the way. Looking at the installation instructions and diagrams, the double nailing seems to be happening although not explicitly stated.I'll have to take a peek at the underside of the roof when I get home and see if that makes sense.
Edited 4/4/2006 10:11 am ET by BobS
The course in question has the nails from the course above 2'' from the top.
The way you phrased his comment sounded like he wanted it to seem like they intentionally doubled nailed them-instead of it just being the way it occurs in practice.
If he had nailed above the nailing line by an inch,in addition to the misses-then I'd say he had "double nailed"them.
That is the way he phrased it - but I think he just meant its the way it occurs in practice. But yes, he meant as you say "the course in quesiton has the nails from the course above 2" from the top" and not an actual "double nailing" to account for the misses.Either way, it seems like that shingle has got some nails in it.
Edited 4/4/2006 11:03 am ET by BobS
If you get out the epoxy, we might not ever let back on the forum. Just kidding. Keep in mind that I don't think any of these 30 year shingles are going to last that long. Probably 20 years. I'm redoing roofs that are less than 15 years old.
I did a roof repair on a apartment complex, 6 buildings, each one felt like a football field. Real poor framing and roofing. The nail pops were everywhere, too numerous to deal with, and I wasn't hired to nail them down. The repair supervisor ( for all their apartment complexes in differnet cities) felt that the the OSB was the culprit. I know that some of them were never set to begin with, but I have always wondered about the holding power of OSB since that time.
When the nail sits proud of the surface the shingle never seals and then the wind gets a hold of it and away they go.
>>>>>>>>>Real poor framing and roofing.I think that's the biggest culprit in the nail backing out scenario. If everything is moving a little every time the wind blows, the nails are more likely to try and evacute. I've seen the sheathing nails back out frequently in poor framing situations.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
How did I know that sooner or later this'd get around to blaming the framer? ;)View Image
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>How did I know that sooner or later this'd get around to blaming the framer? ;)Just blaming bad framers.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
I was just kidding anyway CU. View Image
I know - addition finished yet?Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
Upstairs (new) finished.
Outside (house) finished.
Downstairs gut/remodel... plastered. Trim and stair parts delivered yesterday. Currently acclimating (code for I'm too lazy to start today)
Outside landscaping....haven't started, but I'm eager to get on it. I like that kind of work a lot. In fact I was just looking at a guy selling his landscape trailer, w/ mowers, weed whackers, back pack blowers, leaf vacuum, etc.... the works. $15K.
Sometimes I dream about working by myself. If I could frame houses by myself, I would. I love my guys, but having employees can be such a hassle.View Image
The trouble with nails not into boards is that they will work upwards over time and wear thru the shingle above.
I hear that said a lot. Bear with me, I'm not being a smartazz here, but how long does it actually take for a roofing nail to wear through the double or triple layer of an architectural shingle? I guess it doesn't matter. Just means that sooner or later you're screwed, right?View Image
I agree that it won't be overnight,and possibly they will never bother.
I used to do quite a bit of asphalt work and always hand nailed on old wood decks.When you hit an "airball" we always took out that nail-set them higher on that course,and continued on.
My point to the OP was that there is potential for problems down the road,not that they are inevitable.
Vigilance will determine whether a problem happens in that 5 year warranty period.
Just to clarify, I was wasn't trying to contradict you. I was just curious to know if you had seen it happen in a relatively short period of time or something.View Image
I didn't take it as contradiction.
By sharing our experiences on this forum we can all be witness to much more than we can personally observe.
Lots of days I just read different threads on here keeping my eyes and ears open.I've learned a lot over the last year and a half. Sometimes I think i may be able to offer some insights,at which point I'll jump in.
How big are the gaps between the boards? If it's more than a tiny gap, then you have skip sheathing and the roofer should have installed plywood over it before the felt and shingles. Maybe that's not common there, but it is everywhere else.
I have 1x6 skip sheathing with 2" gaps on my house. I just finished carrying 60 sheets of 1/2" CDX plywood up there as part of the reroof. The plywood was the single biggest expense.
No, its not skip sheathing. The gaps are only 1/4 to 3/8" wide. Its just old school board sheathing - same as all the walls. Most of the houses of the same vintage (1960) are the same here. The nailers just got unlucky.
it depends alot on how much wind you normally get. in high wind areas (areas frequently exposed to hurricane force) i might be concerned, but otherwise i wouldn't worry too much.
Drill a hole though the tip of the nail and thread a wire through it. Then, tie off the wire to the adjacent board. I think they make a fastener for this. I think it's called a "gap wire holder". I think Home Depot has the best prices.
If you can't find any, contact Dino. He'll invent some.
blue
That was a trick blue learned from one of his free ebooks.
'Nemo me impune lacesset'No one will provoke me with impunity
>>>>>>>>>Then, tie off the wire to the adjacent board. I think they make a fastener for this. I think it's called a "gap wire holder". I think Home Depot has the best prices.HeHeHe. How are the Pistons doing? I've lost track of my NBA teams during the NCAA tournament. Got some catching up to do.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/
The pistons are rocking the NBA right now. They have eight games left in the regular season and they already clinced the Eastern Conference home field advantage by winning their 60th game. They also have a two game advantage and the tie breaker advantage over San Antonio for the finals home field advantage.
I've already ordered my championship hats.
blue
This is my favorite time of year for sports. My adreneline gets flowing for March madness and then the NBA teams start stepping it up to make the playoffs and then ---- The Playoffs for a couple of months. I thought I saw where another of the homeboys (Keith Bogans) got picked up by the Pistons. I've always thought Flip was a better coach than what he was able to do with the TWolves.Why is it every time I need to get somewhere, I get waylaid by jackassery?
http://grantlogan.net/