I’ve been unhappy with the results I’m getting from motorized miter saws for years despite buying $100 blades, etc. Not good enough for stain grade work in my estimation. So, I figured I’d buy a miter trimmer.
Apparently the one to have was made by a company that is no longer in business. So, it seems that at least three companys are selling a “Lion” knockoff made in Taiwan. Grizzly, Rockler, and a no name marketed by Highland Woodworking. They all look exactly the same yet there is a $70 price disparity. Anyone know what’s up with this. Calls to all three sellers revealed nothing. I’m guessing the same manufacturer cranks out the one machine then the sellers all made different deals. Grizzly, being the cheapest reseller, probably cut a deal that doesn’t allow them to disclose too much and the other two sellers are obviously not interested in being forthcoming. “Oh, we don’t know what those other guys are selling so we can’t tell you what the difference between our products is.” That sort of b.s.
Does anyone out there have some first hand experience with these machines? Is there a real difference between them?
Thanks.
Replies
They still have a web site:
http://www.lionmitertrimmer.com/
Yes, I've seen the website but you can't buy one from them. Try the links on where to buy.
Buy this one
http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Vintage-Lion-Miter-Trimmer-Art-Framing-Cutter-/180608504116?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a0d1b1134
If I needed another one I'd buy it.
Joe H
Hmm, just looking at the condition of that one I'd be questioning a few things.
They're solid iron
Other than dropping one I can't think of anything that could go wrong with them.
You ever seen one? They're tanks.
For $150 + shipping it's a steal.
Joe H
Yeah, a trim guy I used to work with had one.
Looks pretty rusty in the pic so I'm wondering if it's been abused in any other way.
Plus, once the blades get pitted like that they're pretty much toast. I'd have to find a source on old Lion blades too.
Too much trouble over all.
I'm wondering if anyone here has experience with the Taiwanese knockoff...?
AMT Miter Trimmer
I've had an AMT miter trimmer (I believe it's an overseas knock-off) for about 25 years. I've used it mostly to make picture frames, and also for baseboard and casing moldings. I've never used a Lion trimmer, so I can't make an educated comparison, but I've had zero problems with mine. Just like the Lion site says, the cuts are glass-smooth and fit perfectly. The key to using these correctly is to slice off paper-thin slices; if you try to cut any thicker, you'll probably cause tear-out towards the end of the cut. The blades are scary-sharp; I took off a good piece of thumbnail once just by accidentally brushing my thumb against the blade when removing a piece of wood. I haven't needed to sharpen my blades yet. I don't know what mine cost, since it was a gift from my brother, but to me, $150.00 for that rusty one on eBay doesn't strike me as a great deal.
Yeah, once the blades, (knives?), get rusty they're generally beyond repair. You can't grind down the flat side on a miter trimmer's blade and it looks like the leading edge on that one is eaten away in at least one location. I can imagine trying to track down good blades for an extinct product would be a big hassle.
Joe
I'm with you on that one.
Looks like that one set out in someone unheated garage and got a little rusty. Little steel wool and oil mixed with some elbow grease would pretty it up some, but the blades look fine at the cutting edge.
Have you ever had your blades sharpened? My Lion is only 15 years old and only used lightly, so I haven't had to ahve them sharpened. When I worked in a cabinet shop the owner had his sharpened once. Local guy did an excellent job.
Blades are probaby good for my lifetime
Think I'd try the scary sharp on them if they ever need it.
Joe H
Not that I am against a miter trimmer, but lets look at the facts: If it was the end-all cure to miter issues then wouldn't every carpenter and woodworker out there have one? Currently I don't know any carpenters or woodworkers who have one. However, every carpenter and woodworker I know has and uses a miter saw of some sort.
I guess I'm curious why motorized miter saws give you such problems. I've been using motorized saws for my entire career and seem to have great results every time. Heck, I don't even buy the super expensive blades - usually only pay about $60-$80. Just because you pay over $100 for a blade doesn't mean it's the right blade for the material.
Did you ever stop to think it could be something YOU are doing wrong?
Maybe you need to re-examine your cut technique.
Or, Maybe your saw has bad bearings or some other issue that is affecting the cut.
Try sharing the specifics of the problems you are having with your cuts - include details such as the make/model of your saw and blade, the species/type/dimension/use of the material you are cutting, and whether your problems pertains to blow-out, miter tightness, squareness, end grain smoothness, or something else.
DC
Motorized miter saws are fine until you have to adjust the cut a hair. Paint grade, not a problem. Stain grade, problem. I don't want to see even a hint of glue in my joints.
It's not the saw or the technique, it's the tendency of the blade to slip off the cut, ever so slightly.
By the way, I've worked with numerous finish carpenters over the last thirty five years and the fact that most of them are unaware of the problem is fairly meaningless.
sunsen
I think your last statements only further prove my point that the problem may be you, not the tools.
You should try to re-evaluate your statements before you post them, and possibly re-think the company you keep in terms of trim carpenters.
Being one who specializes in trim carpentry and cabinetmaking I have adopted the motto "Perfect is Close Enough". That means my miters are tight and I don't caulk my joints; paint grade or otherwise. So, forgive me if reading a statement such as yours makes me roll my eyes just a bit.
But then, within my professional career of chopping up wood and nailing it back together I have met many different types of "carpenters"; Some professionals, some hobbyists, some very good at what they do, and others that are just total hacks. While not all "carpenters" make for real finish carpenters, I have never met a professional finish carpenter that wasn't proficient at trimming. It is, after all, just a simple matter of measuring and cutting. But for those "carpenters" out there who are not precise enough to measure acurately and not patient enough to cut properly........well, then it's usually the tool's fault.
Funny how someone can tell me things like "the blade is flexing" or "the saw is out of square" or numerous other excuses. Yet in almost every instance they seem to work just fine for me. When asked "what did you do to fix it?" I can only answer, "first I measured then I cut".
So, if it makes you feel more competent to talk down on professionals and spend your money on some fancy pants tools just so you can pull out your micrometers and say your cut was 0.001" more perfect than the next guy's.....well you go right ahead. And if you can turn around and actually pull a profit doing it that way, then more power to you. But at some point in your finish carpentry career, you might want to re-examine whether that extra 0.001" (in wood, no less) is really worth the extra time and effort or it it may have been wiser to have just learned how to use a miter saw properly in the first place.
But what do I know, I'm just a hack carpenter that gets lucky sometimes.
DC
I'll offer the observation that a steady hand (which is due in equal parts to practice, muscular strength, genetics, and mental calmness) is often key in whether "the blade flexes" or some such. Some perfectly competent carps do not have a steady enough hand to do really fine work (especially with less than ideal tools), regardless of their care and skill. If these people need some extra "fancy pants tools" to advance their work from "good" to "excellent" then one ought not to criticize, but rather admire their devotion to excellence.
DanH
I can only agree that one needs "mental calmness" to be a good trim carpenter.
Like I said, it's just a matter of MEASURE then CUT.
If one can do so in a calm and careful manner then he will most likely be successful at making perfect miters every time.
As the old adage indicates: Haste makes Waste. That could be a waste of time, material, money, or effort. But by understanding that joining two pieces of wood using two 45Ëš angles to create one 90Ëš angle is a simple matter of mathematics and not magic then you will understand that to do so takes very little practice, muscles, genetic advantage, or "fancy pants tools". It has been so for literally thousands of years, performed billions of times, I am sure, and by weak old men and brawny young lads alike using a myriad of tools and techniques through the ages.
Today we have electrically powered, circular bladed, sliding compound angle miter saws and assuming your saw isn't a complete heap of garbage, it will in all likely hood provide the means to cut the most accurate 45 degree angle your wood project will ever require.
If, however, you want to be an 'anal engineer' and check every cut with a precision jeweled dial test indicator for the Nth degree of variation then you will probably never be happy with your wood work. Did I mention that this is WOOD we are talking about? You know, wood, that beautiful and natural hydro-elastic material that is exemplified by it's grain and fiber...the same grain and fiber that give that characteristic depth and texture but also the same grain and fiber that is designed by nature to absorb and move moisture, thus causing aforementioned hydro-elastic movement which in turn causes those "perfect" miters to be slightly less, depending on the season and species of course.
DC
If one can do so in a calm and careful manner then he will most likely be successful at making perfect miters every time.
That's easy to say if you don't have a tremor.
Do you actually have tremors or are you just playing devil's advocate?
Either way, I somehow still manage to find the calm to cut tight fitting miters....even with all the voices in my head.
But maybe you're right and not everyone can cut clean miters. Lucky for them, they can hire guys like me.
DC
I've used older Lion trimmers and own a Taiwan knock off. The key issue is that these are miter trimmers, not miter cutters. You have to cut the miter, first. The trimmer works best when you are only trimming off a very small amount, 1/64". Seldom needed with modern miter saws but a great tool before the 80's when powered miter saws came on the market to replace the only choice we had, hand miter boxes.
Although the angles can be adjusted, the miter trimmer is really set up for cutting exact 45's and 90's. These may be good for picture framing and furniture but in trimming jobs, you often need to tweak a miter. If you need 45.0625 degrees to compensate for real conditions, it's very difficult with a trimmer. When it comes to something like picture frames, the length of the opposing sides have to be exactly equal. It's also very difficult to set up a stop on a miter trimmer so you won't change the length of the frame members. If one should happen to be 1/16" too long, trying to make that much of a cut will dull the blade, to reduce that to the fine cut you need to make on a trimmer, you have to move your stop. This puts you back to square one which makes no sense.
The capacity of these trimmers is around 4" x 4" but you would need Arnold's arms to make that large a cut, repeatedly. The blades on a trimmer lose their sharpness fairly fast. When they get dull or have microscopic nicks, these show up on your cut and your work piece can be pulled slightly, there goes the precision. On something like 1" x 3" red oak casings, the blade will start to show dulling signs within a dozen or so cuts. Where a miter trimmer excells is with tiny moldings, inlay bandings and pieces that are difficult to accurately cut with other methods. I had some glass stops to install on multi-pane, glass, cabinet doors. Stops were about 1/8" thick, 5/16" wide with a profile. The miter trimmer was the perfect tool for this.
I trim a lot of houses and install many manufacturered kitchen cabinets, typically with sensitive pre-finished moldings, in all kinds of species and they don't give you any extra. I don't even bring the miter trimmer to the job, it's essentially useless. There can be a huge difference in miter saw blades. I have several $100, suposed to be the best, blades, that are also useless. It's not easy taking $300 lessons the hard way but that's what it can take to finally find the blade that works for you and your saw. I use Freud industrial TFLU 9110, 60 tooth, negative hook blades on my older 10" Bosch slider. They not only give me a great cut but they last. If I need to tweak a cut, I may be able to set the saw slightly off a detent or I may grab my low angle block plane and take off a shot or two.
Here's a pic that says it all, a piece of furniture, so exact angles were working, sections where four miters come together, the slightest inaccuracy would effect the adjoining miters, delicate corners, no wiggle room. The top was ever so slightly open on the left piece, a shot with the block plane fixed the issue. You can easily see the difference between the plane cut and the saw cut left at the top 1/8" or so. I don't think i could ask for better performance from my saw and blade as long as I could cut on the mark, I'm not bad but miss it now and then.
This thread has been most informative so far, full of good points and examples of fine workmanship; Thanks guys.
Brings back memories.
Ah, someone who actually has some experience.
Nice to see someone weighing in who knows something about the subject at hand. This forum is always so full of self proclaimed "experts" and "professionals". What a joke.
Now why is it a miter trimmer is no good for angles other than 45 and 90? I can easily see adjusting the thing to any angle in between and making that perfect trim, need be.
Sunsen
"This forum is always so full of self proclaimed "experts" and "professionals". What a joke."
And just who might you be speaking of? Not me, I hope.
You realize this is a message board set up with the intensions of allowing those with questions to query those with answers. You have the right to pick and choose which advice to take; results may vary. But I've been around here long enough to know that in some cases questions are answered before they are asked.
You obviously want a trimmer and will go out and buy one regardless of the advice garnered here. So go get one, nobody's stopping you. Then instead of coming here and asking questions that you've already answered, you could just come here and tell us all how the tool is working out for you.
Rhetorical questions are annoying but tool reviews are almost always appreciated.
DC......as in Dreamcatcher Design&Build