*
My neighbour and I are just finishing off his new sundeck. He wants to use mitre joints in the corners on the 2 x 6 boards that will cap off the railings.
Since we live in BC where we have a lot of moisture and temperature extremes, I think that the mitres will eventually open up, even if we glue and screw or dowel them.
Am I wrong? If not, what are our alternatives? Somehow I don’t think butt joints or half laps give the same “finished” look that mitre joints do. But in my view poor mitre joints look even worse. Thanks for any advice you can offer.
Replies
*
If the boards are going flat you can use a joint called a half-lap-miter. Don't ask me to describe that without pictures. Look it up in a wood working book.
*Martin,I tried to find the half-lap miter on the Web. Closest was a half-lap t-joint, but the principle's the same. Go to . Look at the diagram next to step one and picture the pieces mitered.
*Have used mitre and half-lap mitre joints in both cold and wet climates and have never had a problem. If you are worried just run a screw through the joint tying the mitre together. If esthetics are a concern then fill the countersunk screw with a glue-sawdust mixture before finishing.
*I have always mitred the flat 2x6 on deck cap railngs. The mitre always changes as shrinkagae occurs.I ignore it. I suppose i could put a new rail on each month.The funny thing? The short point of the mitre shrinks more! Can anyone explain that?Blue
*As they dry the boards shrink mostly across their width and very little in length ,so while the long point to long point dimension stays nearly the same the short to short gets shorter as the board gets narrower [ a fortyfive degree miter is no longer a fortyfive ,more like fourtysix or seven depending on how much narrower the board got ] Just the opposite happens if the board swells ,the long point will open up . Chuck
*I like the half lap mitre idea. I would also think about gluing them together with epoxy. I have heard great things about it and finally used it this week. Not bad at all. Had a working time of at least 20 minutes. Now that I'm over the "how hard it is to use" thing, I'm sold.
*Half-lap miter would be best. If unable, you could use epoxy and a spline. Watch the grain orientation on the spline, though. Biscuits are a possibility, though I think the biscuits would deteriorate with repeated exposure to moisture. If they were gooped with epoxy it may offer protection, but I'm still not sure of how long they'd last.
*Chuck, i think your onto something there!Blue
*I agree with Blue. We do one extra step. A quick pass with the router and a roundover bit on all top edges including the miter. Simple to do and it makes the problems Chuck describes far less obvious. Saw it done several years ago by a deck builder it looked great, been doing it the same since.
*How about a half-blind dovetail? I'm half-kidding, couldn't (and wouldn't) do it myself, but I bet it would work well. Half lap i would worry would collect and retain water?I am currently going to try the biscuit approach with epoxy or gorilla glue to lock it up. Or place the miter on top of a corner post and screw glue the whole thing together. Or, more likely, leave the post long and attach the top rails to its sides, no miter. Or scab a plate on underneath, concealed by a pair of skirt boards that will also carry low-voltage wiring. For a wide rail, what about miter hardware as is used under kitchen countertops?you can see how indecisive I am about this. That, and my having no free time, are why I have a deck with posts and no rails.
*Does it sand easily?
*That's open for discussion. I came back this morning and after 16 hours and 50's and 40's it was still gummy under a sander. I don't know if that would change, I think it would change over time. On a plus side, it brushed on really nicely and free of stuff, finishes to an extremely smooth surface. In boat building sources they seem to indicate that sanding is no problem. I think temp and humidity had major factors in it. As a side note, I recently spot grouted a floor with an epoxy grout. I was hoping for a quick cure, it was sticky the next morning. The owner, who insisted on epoxy even though the tile supply house said no, was in a tizzy the next morning. I spent 2 hours scrubbing the floor, got it clean,non sticky. I would have listened to the supply house, but this owner was the type that if he said epoxy and you didn't get it, even though that was the wrong product, he would have bitched. His wife, the sane one was pleased and payed me in full plus the extra costs for screwing with epoxy grout.
*... must try this epoxy y'all are talking about. Is West the consensus choice? http://www.westsystem.com reveals that a 52 gal drum of resin can be had for a mere $1848 -- anyone want to split?
*
For one solution to this problem see the 'Furniture Grade Deck' article in FHB a couple of years ago. There's a reprint of it on the Penofin website (penofin.com). They used a sliding mahogany dovetail to lock the mitered redwood cap rail corners.
In regard to epoxy, I have used it quite a bit on boats (kayaks). It should definitely cure hard and sand clean. If it retains tackiness after a day or so you probably have problems with the resin/hardener ratio, old hardener, contimanation etc. West System is the standard and comes in much lot smaller sizes than whole barrels, but still not cheap. One neat thing they offer is a set of matched pumps that screw on the resin and hardener cans and provide the right mix ratio: one full stroke of the hardener pump supplies the right amount for the resin dispensed by one full stroke of that pump.
My plan for the 2x6 redwood on my deck is to use epoxy and to reinforce the joint with a 1/4 inch hardwood spline. I hope I'm not setting myself up for stress problems due to wood movement. I've rounded over most of the other edges, so I may use the idea above to round over the top edges of the miter joint itself.
*
Ive used pocket screws to hold the miter, worked pretty good. Used the kreg rocket jig on the underside of miter.
*To attach a freespanning handrail (no balusters) to its posts, are pocket screws probably the best connection? I'm thinking of adding a 1x3 on edge underneath to stiffen it, but I'm uncomfortable with the attachment detail ... someone might sit on the thing. Newel posts extend above the rail, so the rail can't be continuous.
*My goodness! From the responses I get the impression this is an interior staircase and railing instead of an outdoor deck. Guess I'm just not up to the crowd's quality standards.
*Andrew, After years of hesitation, I started in with epoxy. I always refrained, for whatever reason, but had to use it when doing a big butcher block and an additional run of maple countertop.Piece of cake to use, just mix as required, and mix in the proper ratio or you'll get forever cure times and incessant gumminess/tackiness.West is a good product. As an aside, for your railing, a 1x3 "T"ed to the bottom of the rail would surely stiffen it. If you want to go beyond that for, as you say, the inevitable rail squatters, consider either a "T" section of angle iron or a simple 90-degree section of angle iron, screwed to the bottom of the rail in conjunction with or instead of the 1x3. Paint it black, it should blend rather well.
*Thanks Chuck; I have spent time trying to figure that out, but never did have a clear head for long enough.
*Thanks Mongo. Your suggestions for protecting the rail against squatters sound better than my idea of using pigeon spikes.
*That's easy. Find the square foot price of your typical mission cabinet, made of mahogany. Your bound to be pretty close. Having built fences worth well over 200$ /ft and decks worth upto 67$/sq' I know a little about decks and fences... however you don't want to hear about that...I'm just a hack after all. What I would love to , "Love" to see, would be that deck in the article after 5 years. Did it age gracefully as well as look pretty? I know my 15' high fence is still dead straight and level. All these magnificent projects should have follow ups...that's where the real craftsmanship comes in.
*"Hack" was meant as a compliment here. Spending money like this on a public space would make more sense to me. i just can't imagine doing that for a deck -- I'd be kind of embarassed. $100,000?No offense to your talents intended, none. I had just reread the article with unease. Um, what kind of fence for $200/ft? Was that Great Wall project in China one of yours? When you're working on these projects, what do you quietly think to yourself about the expense when not focusing on the craftsmanship?
*I have used the pocket screws for handrail to post, but with balluster also nailed to post to help strengthen it. In your situation maybe some additional pocket screws in 1 x 3 t section to post, but they would be visible. Maybe a L bracket as suggested earlier would help too. I use 3 1/2 screws on 2x stock. Have even attached 4x4 posts to decking with the pockets when i couldnt get to the underside on a pre-existing deck. Not my favorite way but with 2 screws on each side of post it was very solid.
*I agree. Most of the decks I build are p.t. pine and i use simple techniques, miter cuts and nails, etc. That looks great on most houses, in my opinion, but some people want more. As long as they pay for it I'll do it any way they want.
*Good thinking, thank you. I'm sure I good do something simple to the client's satisfaction, but as i am trying to build a reference base i want to do particularly well. I'm considering some sort of very simple mortise in the post to get some direct wood-wood bearing (perhaps just for the 1x3 so I don't have to mess with the handrail profile), or wood braces scabbed to the post & cut to straddle or wrap the 1x3. I'll epoxy and paint to limit water infiltration.Still wondering about water in the half-lap miter. Am I picturing the right joint -- and this exposes end grain, right?I was wrong about the dovetail, too easy. Try a Kanawa-tsugi (actually a scarf joint useless here, but quite impressive -- all wood, no glue or metal).
*No offense taken...Sounds like a bit of a cultural language difference. I must admit my message looks sort of rediculous since you erased your first one. I don't worry so much about what others think of me or my talents...But to beat yourself up or others in the forum, that would ruffle my feathers---My apoligies for taking it the wrong way entirely.My observations of the folks here is ...You never know what they have done, achieved, or what their actual abilities are. What seems obvious is that they care about doing the best they can and spend plenty of time improving their skills for the advancement of their reputation. I expect they, you and I are in fact the cream of the crop...insofar as contractors go.As for your question, I looked upon it as an opportunity like no other to design and build something like that, at the ripe old age of 24, that was 7 years ago. I make it a habit not to judge people or what they do with their lives or money. It is up to me to live this life in the best way I can. True it is opulant and rediculous for a private residence, but there was a reason. The owner of the property was of a certain religious denomination(Doesn't matter which), and his sons enjoyed tennis. The local snob tennis club and golf course refused them a membership. So he bought half the golf club and his sons won the local championship that year. The tennis court was a monument to these small minded people.You can see shots of it on the website under fences, and on the main page is the center court pergola. http://www.gardenstructure.com
*Neat.I saw a guy today struggling to pop the lock of a shiny Porsche 911 convertible with a variety of metal fishing instruments (way beyond slim jim). Decided he was legitimate and asked politely how often anyone asked what he was doing and he laughed, saying most of the cops here know him by now and just wave as they drive by. Anyway, the young couple who owned the car were waiting behind him in a Lexus SUV, also new. I chuckled at all that wealth, technology, and power felled by someone locking his keys in the car. We're all pretty much the same, human.
*
My neighbour and I are just finishing off his new sundeck. He wants to use mitre joints in the corners on the 2 x 6 boards that will cap off the railings.
Since we live in BC where we have a lot of moisture and temperature extremes, I think that the mitres will eventually open up, even if we glue and screw or dowel them.
Am I wrong? If not, what are our alternatives? Somehow I don't think butt joints or half laps give the same "finished" look that mitre joints do. But in my view poor mitre joints look even worse. Thanks for any advice you can offer.