Replies

1. 
   calvin | Mar 08, 2006 03:38am | #1

   what type of temporary heat are you using and where are these homes located.

   A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

   Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

   Quittin' Time

    

1. 
   kidder | Mar 08, 2006 03:45am | #2

   Heat is natural gas high effecienty forced air with some temp. ducts and we're in Toronto.

2. 
   davidmeiland | Mar 08, 2006 03:53am | #3

   Where in the country are you located? Are you getting KD framing lumber or green? Like you say, around here I would be looking for framing lumber and subfloor in the 12% MC range after we are dried in. If it gets rained on a lot during framing I would expect to be running dehumidifiers as soon as the windows and doors go in, trying to gently lower the MC of the wood. Remember that drywall, painting, concrete slabs, etc., will all be adding MC to the environment as they are happening, and after. I have gone into houses the day after a plaster crew skims walls and all of the windows are completely covered with condensation. It's not just the framing material that has moisture. As far as nail pops go, gluing the drywall is one of the best defenses against that.

1. 
   kidder | Mar 08, 2006 04:50am | #4

   I'm in that other country, just north of Buffalo. We were supposed to be using KD, but a lot of the loads came air dried, one load green, it got sent back. (yard just testing us ) MC will, as you say, be a concern throughout the project, but my thinking is one step at a time. I'll test the studs, and if I get 10% or lower we're a go for board, well maybe 12%. Anyway, thanks for the input.

3. 
   MikeSmith | Mar 08, 2006 04:54am | #5

   kidder.. my guess would be 10% before drywall & about 22% after finish  paint

   halfway thru the first heating season. i'll guess  8%

   i'm assuming a New England site

   Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
1. 
   kidder | Mar 08, 2006 05:44am | #6

   Mike, 22% after paint? Is this in the house generally? My concern is for the frame, which should be protected from interior moisture by the vapour barrier, yes,no?And while I'm thinking about it, this whole argument started because our HVAC engineer will not allow us to fire up the system during construction, for fear of damage to the components. So, how do you climatically control the house for the installation of millwork, hardwood and trim? I'm just trying to get the board up now and deal with the interior climate later.

1. 
   MikeSmith | Mar 08, 2006 06:16am | #7

   for the  hvac guy.. tell him you want to run it with disposable filters, throw the old ones out before you turn the house over

   also ... if there is A/C, it works great for dehumidification

   the higher levels reflect the 100 gal. or so of water in the drywall joint compound & paint

   vapor barrier  ....hmmm, wonder how good that is

   check the moisture content of the trim.. and use a sling psychrometer for the ambient airMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

4. 
   hammer1 | Mar 08, 2006 08:32am | #8

   Take the guess work out of the equation. Go buy a moisture meter and a hygrometer. The hygrometer will show the relative humidity and the moisture meter will tell you the content in any wood you plug it into. Most of the new homes around here are completed in a few weeks, it would be nice to have perfect conditions but nobody has time to wait. If your super thinks he can prevent every screw from popping or every joint from opening, you'd better check his resume, he hasn't been building houses in the real world.

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   alrightythen | Mar 08, 2006 09:14am | #9

   on another note. do I call the drywaller back for fixing screw pops, is that an extra charge?

   On my 1st build so not sure. I'm guessing it's my resposibilty. and I've got about half dozen pops.

   also, what's average...is half dozen high?

   Edited 3/8/2006 1:15 am ET by alrightythen

1. 
   hammer1 | Mar 09, 2006 04:18am | #13

   Your average sheet of 4'x12' has a minimum of 40 screws in it. Every screw has to go in perpendicular to the surface. The head of the screw should be just a little below flush, dimpling the paper but not breaking it. The chances of a few screws not being perfect is pretty high. The framing can dry out, twist, bow, be nailed insufficiently, be nailed out of flush with adjacent members, react to stress, the list goes on. When the trim carpenters screw the kitchen cabinets and vanities, nail up casings and especially, install closet fixtures, popping of a screw or two, happens. They are easy to fix when everything is new. The fix will require digging out the existing compound, filling the hole, usually twice between drying, sanding, and painting. These are the type of things that are put on a punch list. I seldom call back the drywaller for something that is insignificant. There isn't any sense in pointing fingers or trying to place blame. The drywall folks aren't going to paint. Sheetrock is not plaster. As the house settles in there can be additional popping. I guess it depends on your organization as to who fixes problems. As a builder, the home is my product, so, I feel it is ultimately my responsibility. If there are issues with any of the subs on the job, that's my job, also. Being on site and knowing my subs often means that potential issues are seen and remedied before they become an item on the punch list.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

1. 
   alrightythen | Mar 09, 2006 05:59am | #15

   Thanks for informative response. I figured that it should most like fall  on me to remedy the pops.

   painting is already done. ( except for touch ups) so what would you do, if getting the drywaller to come back is an extra, do usually get your labourer to do something like that?

1. 
   trout | Mar 09, 2006 07:02am | #16

   painting is already done. ( except for touch ups) so what would you do, if getting the drywaller to come back is an extra, do usually get your labourer to do something like that?

   You might check with your painter.  Ours will touch up sheetrock for dirt nothing as part of his bid price.  It's not common amoung new construction painters, but he told me that they are so used to doing that on repaint jobs that it's second nature to simply take care of small problems as they see 'em.

   As for who on a "normal" construction crew would be good for this, I can't say there's one laborer I've ever worked with that I'd trust with duplicating a texture or paint touchup.  Usually the most experienced finish carpenters are also the best at fixing these things so we've fixed such things while working on the last of the trim/etc. 

   Having said that, the carpenters I've worked with have more of a remodeling background, and as such have a much broader skill set than new construction carps.

   One dedicated punchlist guy that was a full time employee of a sheetrock company was so quick and so good that he was definitely the least cost person for the job.  He touches up texture every day and it showed when he patched and perfectly retextured a 4"x12" hole and a dozen nail pops in less than 30 minutes.

2. 
   hammer1 | Mar 09, 2006 05:30pm | #18

   I think you need someone who knows how to make an invisible repair with a minimum of mess. Chances are, that a laborer won't have those skills, besides, we don't have any laborers. Most of our screw pops are a result of attaching something to the center of a wall, especially if screws are used. That's why I mentioned closet shelves and cabinets. These get patched during the finish carpentry install. Once in a great while a carpet installer or appliance delivery person will ding or bump into a wall. I would not want an inexperienced person carrying a bucket of paint over thousands of dollars worth of carpet or flooring. You need someone that is going to be meticulous about everything including clean hands and workboots. A simple patch could turn into a major re-do.I've been working with some of the same subs for many years. My drywall folks would come back for a patch if I asked them to without an extra charge. We watch each others backs, so to speak. It's important to all of us to put out the best quality product and we stand behind our work. Dings and pops are not something that happens on every house, it's actually quite rare. These are not the drywallers fault. It takes less time to put a dab of joint compound on a putty knife than it does to make a phone call. As long as it's not a major fix, we just do it.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match

3. 
   alrightythen | Mar 09, 2006 06:24pm | #19

   "You need someone that is going to be meticulous about everything including clean hands and workboots"

   Well then I guess that would be me.

   I've done nearly all the carpentry from foundation to finish carpentry. I've got one good young guy who has kinda been my lead hand. as well as some labour who I definately not trust for meticulous work.

   My painters already got most mud touch ups as they went. I will ask them about the pops.

2. 
   kidder | Mar 08, 2006 02:48pm | #10

   He's being difficult on purpose. He wants the system running. HVAC includes geo-thermal, heat pumps etc.

1. 
   MikeSmith | Mar 08, 2006 03:27pm | #11

   your HVAC system is the best thing you have for bringing the  moisture content down.. it should be up and  running

   combustion source heat will add moisture and drive it  thru the walls

   someone is not on board.. talk to them again about changing the filters before turnover.. and using the hvac system in the meantimeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

1. 
   davidmeiland | Mar 08, 2006 05:25pm | #12

   I've worked with more than one HVAC sub that did not want their system running during drywall, painting, etc. Temporary filters on the return air make some of them happy, not others. Turning off the system during active spraying or sanding is a must.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 09, 2006 07:14am | #17

   I remember Ed was working on one of the 10,000 sq ft, multi-million places and I think that it was the owner that did not want the HVAC ran, but it might have the archy or HVAC sub.Anyway they rented portable equipment.But you have to have the budget for that kind of stuff.

5. 
   trout | Mar 09, 2006 05:49am | #14

   Just a few thoughts based on the houses I've helped build and moisture contents than I've checked with a good quality moisture meter.  In the rocky mountain region most areas produce interior moisture content in the framing of 6%-7%.  Getting to that point from a KD 19% is quite a long road. 

   The ends of the boards dry out first, as does the outside.  However, the center of a board dries much slower.   If we waited until the boards have dried to equalibrium, we'd have an empty house for over a month with the heat on and the framing would be twisted all over the place.

   Have you ever seen bare framing that has sat for a month or two in hot weather?  It's twisted all over the place.

   Everything we attach to the framing helps to keep it straight during the drying process.  I'm of the opinion that a few sheetrock pops are probably worth the benefits that the sheetrock has on stud straightness.

   The one area that I think is greatly underrated for causing problems is the use of green lumber for large headers and beams.  The beams are horizontal with loads above so any shrinkage effects everything built on it.  On a 3-1/2"x 9-1/2"green beam the shrinkage is over 1/4" and it won't dry out for many months because of the thickness.  Why build in a guaranteed 1/4" verticle gap?

   As primarily a finish carp I'd love to see a house heated as soon as it's dried in to 65 degrees during the day and 80 at night.  Nothing will draw the moisture out faster than heat and most GC keep the heat so low that it takes for-ev-er to dry out anything.  At least keep it a constant temp in the high 60s for as long as possible and quit turning the heat down to save money.

   The guys who open windows and keep the heat low are greatly underestimating the effects of heat.  Buy a moisture meter to monitor your houses and you'll see it first hand.