Just stumbled on this article, its still an issue in my area too, seems there is no clear way to settle it. What conclusion would you guys come to. Personaly I cant come to a clear decision, on one hand leave them alone, on the other if I gotta pay why should someone be able to claim religous reasons why they dont.
My biggest issue would be they say building permits are against their religion. Keeping a laywer on retainer is agianst their religion, so they really tie up the leagal system time wise on each case. Following building codes is against their religion.
Yet they say it just against their religion and thats all they have to say, offering no explination, and I could maybe take their side if they wanted to tell us why. But its against their religion to?
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I say leave them be.
You want to become Amish, just to build your home without a permit, fine.
If the Amish were building, acting as contractors for others (outside their community), that would be different.
They're a community. They're not going to hire you, or I, in any event. Nor will they compete with us.
I know for a fact that the Amish built the Hartville Marketplace through the permit system.......so my guess is that off the farm they comply with the system code.............A lot of these guys don't have electricity and stuff in their homes so that would be a flag right there I'd imagine..........anyways I'd force compliances off their own property, but leave them be otherwise.........I built my home, guest house and a couple out buildings without any permits........What fun!(and I didn't cut any corners)........don't blame them for fighting it any way they can.My Blog
JJ-- I don't know if the Hartville Marketplace is Amish------or Mennonite.I think there are maybe 2 different sects of Amish in Hartville and probably 16 different varieties of Mennonitethe last house i owned in Akron had a Mennonite family living around the corner from me--- i did THEIR roof!,LOL they had cars, house with electric,phones etc.--- The ONLY way I would have even known they were menonite----was it was almost halloween and I said something to one of the kids about halloween-and the mom took me aside and told me they were mennonites and didn't "have" halloween. so that "plain living" thin is a sliding scale in hartville--all the way from horse and buggy Amish with no zippers----all the way upo to cars,computers, cel phones etc.stephen
But, If you let the Amish get away with no permits then everyone eles will claim they dont believe in it either. You cant discriminate on one group. In general the Amish are very poor and dont have the money to spend on anything extra.
"But, If you let the Amish get away with no permits then everyone eles will claim they dont believe in it either."Yep, and just 'cause they don't believe in fighting at war, everyone will suddenly get the idea that they should not have to serve either. Then where will we be?" In general the Amish are very poor and dont have the money to spend on anything extra."You really need to study up on the Amish some more.
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" In general the Amish are very poor and dont have the money to spend on anything extra."<You really need to study up on the Amish some more.>Ha, what the Amish don't use in physical and legislative aggression, they more than make up for turning a buck! I think their main issue with the permits is that they don't want to lie. To pass inspections, you'd have to follow certain rules that you agree to in the permitting process. The Amish don't want to sign an agreement they may not keep.It's not that they're scrupulously honest... if you don't ask them, they're not tellin.I grew up Lancaster Co, PA. My dad always said, "Never buy a horse from an Amishman."
Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
"I think their main issue with the permits is that they don't want to lie. To pass inspections, you'd have to follow certain rules that you agree to in the permitting process. The Amish don't want to sign an agreement they may not keep."I was wondering about what the doctrinal basis might be - bi that strikes sense to me. They are adamant about not "foreswearing" themselves. So if an application included certain language they would see that way, they would be bound and determined not to sign it.
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well.... i've executed many building permits... and i can think of no instance where anything has to be foresworn...
it does IMPLY that the BI will review the plans for code compliance... and there will be inspections to insure compliance.... but i can't think of any "swearing" that occurs
so ,if they don't comply they have not gone back on any oath.... they just haven;t compliedMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I swear all the time regarding permits.
k
Mike, here is an even funnier part of the story about the Amish in upstate NY. The BI in most small towns are part time and most don't even inspect what is built. The tax assessors are the ones that check to make sure they are taxed correctly. I think if I remember correctly, owner builders have to swear that they are the ones doing the work or WC has to be in place and proved.
This has caused a problem with another bunch over near Seneca Falls. They were working as contractors and don't believe in insurance, so didn't have any. The local town tried to prevent them from building.
I think that instead of taking them to court, it would make sense for the town to get together with the elders of the group and work something out. I think the town was a little hasty. My experience with them is that they are reasonable when conferred.
Well, I suppose it all, ultimitly, comrs down to '12 strangers.' Our forefathers liked the jury, as a check on government power. They recognized that 'just because the King said so' wasn't good enough.
I know not the theological reasons behind anything the Amish do; I'm content to look at a century or so of their being an exemplary asset to any community. I find it quite unreasonable that current law would prohibit me from living in the same splendor as Caesar, or King George, or even Franklin D Roosevelt. Heck, in light of the current crop of endless standards, it's a miracle any of us survived childhood.
"Mainly fire codes." Nonsense. The 'fire code' was just the beginning. I was not exaggerating when I said it would cost over $10,000 to get a copy of EVERY code we live under .... and I'm not even including the countless standards that are referenced by those very codes. If someone can make the connection between requiring more bushes in the parking lot to fire safety, I'm all ears.
"For the Children." Please spare me that old chestnut. I'll put a random sample of Amish children up against those from any other group .... just which group do you think is exposed to more hazardous situations?
In this day of seminar-educated building inspectors and sprawling government, it's no surprise that governments seem to be passionate only when they imagine their authority is being challenged. Every government employee seems to forget that we have LIMITED governemnt .... and it's just too easy to bully someone who, by definition, isn't going to manipulate the system to their own ends. No political action, no lobbying, no voting, no lawsuits .... to the bureaucrat, it's as if these plain folk are walking around with 'Kick Me" signs on them.
Here's a thought: when city hall gets a 'complaint' against the Amish, how about the city telling the complaintant to sue? Let's get their motives out in the open, in public. Then write yourselves an ordinance that lets you leave the Amish alone.
Trust me on this: If the Illinois legislature can write laws that apply only to one firm in the state ( Chicago Cubs) .... where there's a will, there's a way.
Of course, contemporary government seems intent on avoiding jury trials at all costs. Probably with good reason; I would be very reluctant to endorse governmental interference in their lives.
a little myopic in your viewpoint by my experience
open the newspaper and search for instances of not complying with building codes resulted in death
overloaded decks with 20 people on them...
Station Nightclub Fire with 100 dead
houses with 5 layers of shingles on the roof
homeowners removing bearing walls
people building ground contact without pressure treated wood
2d floor rooms with no 2d means of access
chimnies with no fire protection from combustble materials
improper wiring
improper plumbing
unsafe stairs
too narrow hallways
houses with no off-street parking
c'mon... don't tell me that codes are just govt. interference
then , we can discuss job safety before osha... your rugged individualism and "no code" is endangering to me and mine
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I think that if you really look at the numbers the world is really a very safe place.
Even the old non inspected buildings fall down at a much lower % than the ones still standing.
Don't get yourself to worked up this is only some of our opinions.
Nothing personal just opinions.
Russell
russel.... i get very worked up about trying to turn the clock back on codes and safety
35 years of observing the changes tells me the changes have been for the better
personally.... i've seen it all..... lack of codes or non-enforcement of code means a reversion to the low mean
the codes protect the public and set a floor for builders to maintain qualityMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
""Mainly fire codes." Nonsense. The 'fire code' was just the beginning. I was not exaggerating when I said it would cost over $10,000 to get a copy of EVERY code we live under .... and I'm not even including the countless standards that are referenced by those very codes. If someone can make the connection between requiring more bushes in the parking lot to fire safety, I'm all ears. "
I bet you are wrong, To get every "code" we live under would cost over 100K. That being said, who would possibly want or need all of that? Tradespeople who are sharp Know their codes or at least know how to use their books. They buy the code books appropriate for their proffesion. I think you are a electrican, if I'm remembering right. Why would you want to get anything except the NEC? The only thing I've ever seen an electrican gigged on that wasn't in the NEC was emergeny lights which is in the IBC.
Bushes in the parking lot? Which code? Bet it is some sort of local oridnance, your locally elected (you bothered to vote, didn't you?) officals made the law, so ask them to change it. Local goverment at it's best and worse.
And the codes are mainly fire codes. Ever heard of the NFPA? they wrote your NEC.
Probably more permits need to be executed - after a proper trial and sentencing, of course. LOLI wasn't saying for sure that is what their problem with permits is. I'm just speculating in trying to understand their reasoning. As a Mennonite, my doctines are more similar to theirs than many other denominations, but they still come up with some strange precepts and applications for applying same principles differently than we do....But when you find the base key, it makes sense.But for the most part, while they believe in living apart from the world, they do practice humble submission as long as that does not conflict with basic beliefs.I think tho, that many of them have developed an arrogant pride in their separatness that makes them take a stand on minor things to create conflict - in opposition to the primary doctrine of following the ways of Peace.
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I think that the point needs to be made, about permits and code enforcement, that many municipalities have become concerned about avoiding expensive law suits aimed at making the local government and it's officials responsible for problems found in new homes.
That's why safety and fire code stuff is so important, not for any altruistic concerns for the general public, but to avoid paying off big court settlements brought against the governing body's building department.
The same is true for requirements about having licensed architects and engineers prepare and sign off on the plans.
So while it's a serious and expensive PIA to get plans and permits, particularly compared to "the good old days" when a call to the BI and a check for fifty bucks got a permit mailed back within days, it does make sense for all concerned.
>>They are adamant about not "foreswearing" themselves. So if an application included certain language they would see that way, they would be bound and determined not to sign it.Most oath requirements I've run across allow "swearing or affirming" to give room to anabaptist types (including Quakers, I believe) based on scripture which can be read as "forbidding" swearing oaths:Matthew 5:34"But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven for it is God's throne; nor by the earth for it is his footstool."James 5:12"But above all things, brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation."FWIW: Personally, I have used both - I affirmed when I registered to vote in VT years ago and when I was "sworn in" to the bar -- I generally swear to "tell the truth...." when I've served as an expert witness in some court cases, figuring that "affirming" might not be understood by jurors.Either way, I don't think my soul is either elevated or condemned to the dark place by the choice.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Yeah, I know Marian Coblentz is a friend of mine (he's the guy who runs the family owned place. They own the restaurant also) I built half the original booths in the place and sold a bench to the builder. He was from Sugarcreek, but where he was on the amish scale I forget.......Regardless, they inspected that whole place to death......even the electric in some of the privately owned booths (which made sense)I had a nice little business going in there until we moved......What you still see today is only phase one of a huge three phase development.......never got off the ground as the economy began to slip at about the time it opened......luck of the drawMy Blog
JJ,
some of my in-laws lived in Hartville for years---rented a house on 619( I think it's now buried under the parking lot of a fast food joint now) anyhow-these in-laws often made snotty remarks about the Amish------as you know, locally some of them appear to be pretty well off financially----and that often irks people who won't work as hard.But--isn't it interesting what you can accomplish if you dont spend a lot of time watching TV, you don't waste a lot of money on cars----AND I figure if you spend a lot of time each day staring at the back end of a draft animal as you plow the back fourty---you have time to carefully think through your financial moves.........LOL more power to 'em-----as far as I know--the amish don't take a vow of povertystephen
All the the large stuff......hartville true value/the huge restaurant/ the huge marketplace.......and a whole boatload of land belong to the same family.Millers I believe.........really great bunch of people who seemingly get along fairly well. They had a big dinner for local contractors every year about this time. I always went for a great meal, and a t shirt :-)The old man had a zillion bucks but he treated everyone as a friend. I liked those people.........and I'm a guy who basically shuns people.I heard all the stories, usually coming from some sheepdip who is jealous. ....Amazing what people can do when they unite and work as a team.My Blog
" don't waste a lot of money on cars"
I was listening to some NPR podcast the other day -- forget which one -- that had a bit on Amish carriages. Bottom line is that some of those things come complete with all the amenities (like retractable wooden cup holders!) and can run upwards of $30K, not counting the horses! Always paid for in cash.
Like the rest of us, Dear Ol' Dad usually springs for the teenage kid's first carriage.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Years back I recall reading a news article in the local paper where a bunch of Amish youth had gotten drunk together and ended up getting caught stealing the neighbors buggy for a joy ride.
Cracked me up.94969.1 The Breaktime Index
I've also heard of young Amish guys riding around town with big boom boxes in their buggies, playing hard rock music at full volume. :) I guess they also drag race each other.
There's a large community of Amish in SE Minnesota where I grew up. I just read an article in my hometown paper last week that mentioned the whole building permit deal - apparently they were resistant to the whole idea of pulling permits when they moved into the area 30+ years ago, but nowadays they comply to the rules.
In that part of the country at least, most of them live in old farmhouses that have been there forever, they just don't use the lights. They do a fair amount of barn construction for themselves and for outsiders, plus they have a sizable furniture industry where they use diesel generators to run power tools.
stuart- i think the deal is--that amish teenagers-aren't really amish.they aren't really amish-untill they join the church-it's some kind of an adult baptism deal---so a lot of them are not officially members of the church untill they are chronologically adults-----somewhat before they get married.
there is actually a word for that adolecent phase with the souped up buggies and music etc.--that is kind of ignored by the community----but once they want to settle down ad start a family----they join the church--or leave the community
stephen
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Edited 12/15/2008 9:04 pm ET by rez
Edited 12/15/2008 9:12 pm ET by rez
I went to a Action just outside of Lancaster this past weekend, Amish run Shed business shutting down and liquidating all the tools and materials.
There were many recognizable brands of power tools; Dewalt Chop saws, Powermatic Table Saws, Jet Drill Presses. However they had all been converted to either pneumatic or hydrulic motors. The ceiling fans were air motors as were the garage door openers, with a car batery powering the controls. The entire place was run from a diesel engine driving compressors and hydrulic pumps.
They even had ready (Torpedo) heaters that had been converted to air powerd blowers.
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I have heard that as well----but I bet they aren't trading them in every 3rd year!,LOLwonder how a buggy holds it's value?
stephen
>> so that "plain living" thin is a sliding scale in hartville--all the way from horse and buggy Amish with no zippers----all the way upo to cars,computers, cel phones etc.It's sort of like your orthodox, conservative, and reformed Jews.
The Christian "peace churches" span Shakers, Amish, Brethren, Mennonites, Quakers (roughly in order of more-to-less conservative).The Shakers were the most zealously separate from the world.You could trust them to build all sorts of things, not only well but beautifully. The Amish build strong houses, but their furniture is more clunky-looking. By the time you get to the Quakers, well maybe they aren't making so many things themselves anymore, they are hiring it out. But at least they are honest and competent in managing the process. For the rest of us, who have slid all the way down and off that scale, there are building codes.
They tell me coal miners take canaries with them, to warn them when things are getting out of hand.
Could the Amish be our 'canaries,' warning us that this whole permit / license / government intrusion into daily life has become out of control?
Monticello, Mt. Vernon, and countless other architectural masterpieces were built without benefit of building permits, inspections, zoning boards, or planning commissions.
I challenge anyone here to be able to honestly say they have a current copy of EVERY building code that applies in their town. A man could spend $10,000 and still not have every one.
I've watched basic business remodels generate a scores of inspections, from dozens of sundry agencies. Adding a steam table to your restaurant? Well, here comes the parking space counter, and the tree & landscape inspectors! Don't forget the State Archaelogist or Historical Commission, either! Near the end of a major remodel .... like, say, converting a former state office into a restaurant .... you nearly need to have someone there, full time, the last two weeks, just to greet the inspectors; as soon as one leaves, another pulls in.
Where does it all end? Maybe the Amish are on the right track: don't let it get started in the first place.
Do the Amish have sewer/streets provided by the AHJ? Don't know.
I'm just thinking of the SDC's that are tagged onto each house here. Some parks SDCs are 8-10k. Then there is the Traffic Impact Fee, Sewer, Park & Rec. Oh, and the schools can now assess I think $1/SF. I'm sure there's more
Easy 20k left on the table
Well put! I say more power to anyone who can beat the system while maintaining an ethical and moral existence. The reason we have so many rules is that people are greedy and selfish and are always tryin to get something over on others. In the case of building permits, it has often been as a result of unethical builders cutting corners and slimey attorneys running rampant in the courts. THe Amish seem to be a group who takes responsibility for there own well being. If they build a house they don't need codes because the have long traditions of craftsmanship and building. They are not going to cut corners on a house they build for themselves. Also, judging by there response to the school shooting episode, I suspect they you don't see the Amish suing too many people. Coming from California I don't have first hand experience with them but this is my impression.
Edited 12/14/2008 3:38 pm ET by ChiefWiggum
The arguement that an owner builder (the Amish, in this case) jeopardizes no one but themselves is not correct.
Building codes are mostly "fire codes" first and formost. Prevent the fire and if that doesn't work get everyone out safely.
What about the fireman who must enter the burning home to attempt to resucue the occupant who did not leave the building because they didn't have a smoke detector. Now someone has seriously put someone else in danger. Fireman should be able to safely assume that a house that looks XX number of years old was built to the same standards as all the others of that vintage.
So should a fireman ever enter a burning Amish house? How can a fireman even be sure if a house was Amish built or not? Maybe no one enters buring buildings in Amish areas.
I am not picking on the Amish. This is a problem wherever there are not building codes.
you know, that was exactly what i was wondering about. but they probably don't believe in fire departments either? i wouldn't put it past them to take responsibility for fire suppression themselves, rejecting outsider interference.
what about the children who are in those houses?
k
A clear arguement can be made that without electricity there is a dramatic reduction in fiore risk. In addition you presuppose that the Amish somehow build inferior buildings.. Since most buildings the Amish make are timberframed and a timberframe building is better able to last during a fire due to the larger cross section of timbers used which means in all likelyhood a amish built home will be a safer home for a fire fighter to enter.
Finally the amish tend to self regulate and self police themselves.. In the event of a fire the first on the scene is likely to be fellow Amish members.
What specific examples can you relate that occurred in your community that you have first hand knowledge of? I'll bet (without checking) that lots more emergency workers die in buildings that meet code that buildings that don't. I don't believe it's that much of a problem, especially when viewed in the context of other problems that exist at the same time. I'm not against having codes in large and/or commercial buildings (including apartments), but code enforcement is another unfunded mandate that is often not affordable for those owner occupied dwellings in some poor rural areas.Expecting a cabin in the woods to meet the same codes as a modern home development is ridiculous, IMO. Alas, it's also our county code now where I live and the county seat has and average FAMILY income of less than $25k. This makes sure that only wealthier folks from other (almost always urban) areas are the ones who can buy rural property and build anything on it. Except for those who inherited land, the ones hit the hardest are often the hispanic and/or native american people whose families have been here the longest. Should a hogan in the desert of NE Arizona be required to meet all codes, too? Is that how this should work?Strict enforcement of coded also likely contributes to homelessness and to the number of people on Fed subsidies for housing (welfare).I guess my main thought it that one size does not fit all. The ramifications are numerous for any approach to this topic and all should be considered.
Husbandman,
I can't offer any specific examples from my community of a firefighter having "issues" entering a structure fire, but I would bet good money it has occured numerous times elsewhere.
I understand your point of codes running up the costs of housing. It is a big problem, but shouldn't everyone be afforded the oppurtunity to live in safe housing. Poor people need and deserve code complient dwellings as much as rich people.
Sounds good, as always, but which poor people did you want to build and pay for new homes for?IMO, the cure is worse than the disease, particularly for the very people who are supposedly helped.
Um...TJI's meet code in every jurisdiction and the National Fire Chiefs Assoc. HATES them.
So. I don't think it's about fire safety.
What goes "Clip clop clip clop - BANG BANG - clip clop clip clop"?BruceT
Amish drive by shooting.
Proud of my almost Amish Heritage. Schwenkfelder here, like the Brethern and Mennonites.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
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For those who find the Amish and Mennonite ways of life interesting, there are some opportunities to spend time on their farms as a paying guest.
The old custom of renting rooms to tourists, begun in the early days of car travel, is still alive in Amish Country, particularly in Lancaster County, PA.
Some now call them B&B's but it's all the same, a very nicely appointed bedroom and breakfast at a moderate price. You can find such opportunities by asking anyone who works at a place which sells Amish crafts, quilts in particular.
I've had a room on a dairy farm booked for me in just that way, each time I've been in Lancaster County. Warm hearted, hard working families who welcomed me like an old friend.
It's an entire world away from a night in a motel room, even a really nice motel room.
Amish drive-by shooting
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The Amish were very good to tim Allen and Harrison ford so i like them, plus next time i get booted i will have a place of refuge.Not sure i can do the outfits or go back to handnailing though.;]
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<<<Well put! I say more power to anyone who can beat the system while maintaining an ethical and moral existence. The reason we have so many rules is that people are greedy and selfish and are always tryin to get something over on others. In the case of building permits, it has often been as a result of unethical builders cutting corners and slimey attorneys running rampant in the courts>>>>
what a bunch of bs
that's not why we have building codes ... we have building codes to protect the public from any unsafe or bad methods and materials
amish are not immune from making mistakesMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I agree permits are for the safety of the public.
But as with most things it has become over priced, over complicated and over governed.
As a remodeler I avoid permits as much as possible.
That's just the way I see it.
Russell
Permits started out being for the safety of the public.If it were left at that, it wouldn't be so bad.But, the permit system has become just one more source of revenue for principalities.And as with any other source of revenue, they are milking it for all it's worth. To the detriment of the original intent.
Just because they want to make it personal,
doesn't mean you have to take it personal.
Permits are also a real handy tool, used by insurance companies, to deny coverage in case of fire or a lot of other loop holes.
if Ford builds a bad, unsafe car that doesn't comply with "code" they get sued
you are a businessman, usually referred to as a "contractor".... that means you execute contracts...
you are every bit as responsible for complying with the law as Ford
if you can't factor in the cost and time to comply with the codes then you should find a different line of work
if the Amish don't want to comply with the law of their jurisdiction then they will probably have a price to pay... that's their decision
but code compliance is just another part of our job description
ordinances and codes are written by jurisdictions to force all to comply for the common good
eg:
for the 2d time in 4 years a homeowner has decided that he is going to have his construction done 24/7 until the project is complete... he has hired the same CM Project manager team, they have built construction site fences... they are installing a pipe stage tent 100' x 100' x 40' high to shelter the project and the workers
they rent a parking lot half a mile from the site... they have buses transporting the workers from the parking lot.. they are working 12 hr. days , and Sundays & holidays
their site mud is all over the street, when it dries there is dust everywhere, the construction noise never stops
these are not good neighbors... and they are very close to a nice middle class subdivision
so .. after 6 months of listening to the complaints ... last nite the Town Council rewrote the construction ordinance.... now .. no work on Sundays... no work on any state or federal holiday... no work from 8 pm to 7 am
so....... now everyone .... except homeowners..... has a new thing to comply with
and who could blame the Town Council ? there is always some jerk who thinks they are more important than the rest of the community.... and codes and ordinances are the result
there is always someone who , either thru ignorance or greed, is going to build unsafe structures or endanger workers....and our codes and laws are the result
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If you're not willint to exercise options already available to you, passing new ordinances isn't going to help.
"Bad neighbors" aren't anything new. Does anyone really think the 1776 Americans were nothing but perfectly behaved angels? Or that the 'founding fathers' were unaware of the real nature of human relations?
Disturbing the peace. Public nuisance. Littering. Even ... dare we suggest this ... a specific lawsuit asking the court for relief?
Let's return to the topic ... the Amish. More specifically, their lifestyle. It happens to not only conflict with many codes ... it predates them! I'll bet that, when the DMV was created, no one ever imagined that it would later be used to outlaw horses.
Farming. One common theme here in Nevada is folks moving to 'the country' ... then agitating for relief when they spring thaw lets them smell the fertilizer. Who would have ever imagined a need for a 'righ to farm' statute?
Other folks built some 'real' homes here, in the midst of the 'worlds' largest mobil home park.' Now activists campaign, saying that 'something must be done about all those trailers.'
The city here has acted to enforce its' rules in the county, outside city limits, claiming a 'sphere of influence.'
My favorite was the guy who deliberately sought a home overlooking a legal brothel - than complained about the immoral activity.
At some point, governemntal intervention is simply wrong. It's not for government to address all that offends someone. Nor should this decision be made on the merits of the individuals involved, or the specific circumstances, or the emotion of the moment. If it's not your business, it's not your business.
Let's look at some common code rules - and the problems the Amish might have with them.
First and foremost, they just might have a different idea as to the scope of governemnt in our lives. I suspact public schools and building departments are not included in their understanding of legitimate functions.
Then there are housing codes ... requiring indoor plumbing, connection to city sewers, and gas, electric, and phone utility hook-ups.
Since the housing code requires these things, the building code goes on to specify, in detail, the installation of these things.
Might I suggest that .... just maybe ... we got off the track by requiring this stuff in the first place? After all, the Amish seem to get on just fine without them.
You might as well require a fish to ride a bicycle. Any governemnt that can't recognize this is being deliberately ignorant. Or, as someone said, the abuse of power is always in the right hands.
So, I say to all: Back off the Amish. If you really, really feel the need to exercise governemntal powers, focus on the tasks you've already undertaken: control the borders, deliver the mail, fill the potholes, fight your 'wars' on crime and drugs. When you're done, maybe then we can talk about giving you more work.
lots of communities and sects predate the codes... so what ?
i predate the codes... does that exclude me ?
why should the Amish get a walk on the codes that govern their jurisdiction ?
if you want to rewrite the codes to make them prescriptive codes... then they can apply to all and the exceptions that you seek to allow the Amish to continue their life-style could be accomodated
but there is no way i would accept one group of people being allowed to build to one code and me being required to comply with a different code
and there is no way i would get rid of modern building codes and safety lawsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I would. In a heartbeat.
This lack of government is what allowed us to go from being a third-world colonial backwater to THE world power in only 200 years.
Does this mean everything was done 'wrong?' Not at all.
First, folks are absolute geniuses when their self-interest is at stake. There's no clearer illustration of this than last years' Tahoe wildfire ... the one guy whos home did NOT burn was the one guy who was being prosecuted for violating all manner of ;environmental; rules (he raked up pine needles on his lot). (After the fire, the govt. agency at fault claimed the rules were misunderstood, and dropped their case against the man).
Another illustration is that, after the Chicago Fire, business rebuilt, taking measures far beyond anything the (new) codes might require. Indeed, some - like Kemper Insurance - already had adequate fire protection for their records.
Second, there is the matter of the market. This "unseen hand" does a fine job of removing the inadequate from circulation. There's a reason you don't see many Yugo's on the streets - and those cars met every code.
Finally, there's the matter of the insurance companies. Call it 'private sector regulation,' if you will. Mark Twain first documented this effect in "Life on the Mississippi." Even today, in the truly risky industries, it is the insurance companies, and not the governmental agencies, that define the standards.
Quite simply, government is wrong far more often than I like ... and often for all the 'right' reasons. These days, one of the pet causes is 'going green.' Yet, our own codes require a home to have a mechanical HVAC system ... no matter how well the passive design works. That the mechanical system requires you to dismantle the passive system is irrelevant to the code. It's not just a matter of code language at this point ... the basic issue is the over-reaching of government into areas where it doesn't belong.
their site mud is all over the street,
could be worse. The Amish have horsesh!t all over theirs.94969.1 The Breaktime Index
>>But, the permit system has become just one more source of revenue for principalities.It would be interesting to compare the permit revenues v. the BI & permitting costs in the average town/jurisdiction.Yes, it is "revenue, but one has to look at both sides of the ledger sheet to draw a conclusion, IMO.
"Ask not what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive... then go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive."
Howard Thurman
Good point.One that occurred to me as well. ...Right after I hit the post button. ;o)
Just because they want to make it personal,
doesn't mean you have to take it personal.
Not to be forgotten in any discussion of the reasons for rules about building is the desire of many to protect the status quo. Very few homeowners are willing to have their property devalued for the sake of freedom or non-conformity by a lesser dwelling next door.
I have absolutely no problem with the permit system as it stands in Ohio. Nor are the inspections particularly grievous. I have seen first hand what people will do if they are allowed to get away with it. My problem has always been with the inspectors themselves.In my area they seemingly have the freedom to change rules on a dime, some (not all) are arrogant SOB's that can't handle the position without playing 'overlord".And one guy who once caused me a lot of grief, just on a very basic level didn't know his ! from a hole in the ground.My Blog
jj,
up here in Akron-- I live across the street from one of akrons' building inspectors. the city recieved soooooooooooo many complaints about the head of the building department and the inspectors-----that the city tried to fire themLaw suit--------won by the inspectors---they can't be fired and replaced----------------- so-- the city has simply closed the building department-----and now lets the County handle inspections the county agreed to hire aprox. 17 former building department employees----effectively absorbing the entire department-------except for the department head and 3 inspectors what were some of the complaints???-- well they ranged from asault to breaking and entering------and most significantly,I think,--- if they didn't like you you would NOT pass inspectionBUT they wouldn't tell you WHAT was deficient and needed to be corrected some public servants,huh?
stephen
I have bad memories about (trying to work) working in Summit county...........My Blog
JJ,
just had a chance to look at your blog.
let me say that I am not as doom & gloom,survivalist, head for the hills and stockpile food and guns and YOU might be,LOL :>) but---reading the article on the suburbs????-- i think that is spot on!I think the BIGGEST problem we face right now---is a national sense of entitlement---most americans feel ENTITLED to live a certain wayas that preferred mode of life becomes increasingly obviously implausible--americans simply stick their heads in the sand and pretend it isn't so---or that it is someone elses fault----oil companies, or arabs, or bankers or whoeverUsing geographic areas you are familiar with--it is INSANE for people to live in Green, or Jackson township, or hudson, or Medina----and commute 45 minutes or an hour or more EACH way to work in cleveland---it's insane---but people feel entitled to it.Yesterday----in another thread someone was lambasting the chevy VOLT--with a 40 mile electric range -----as not a viable means of transport it's a perfectly viable means of transport---if you get past your feeling that you are entitled to live and work with a 90 mile round trip commuteas a nation we subsidized a completely un viable way of life promoting the suburbs and encouraging areas of large scale habitation in places not fit for humans( LAS VEGAS??????)sorry to ramble-- but my brother in law and I discussed this via investment opportunities over thanksgiving
it's 2008--what will things look like in 2038? what did things look like in 1978?--what did they look like in 1948? as much as things changed from 1978 to 2008-----1978 is still visible to us but the change from 1948 to 1978 was tremendous------and I think the change from 2008 to 2038 will be even biggerSaw something a few days ago in the paper----on one date here in akron we had virtually no cars---- 20 years or so later we had 70,000 cars I don't think most americans understand how tremendously things can change in VERY short periods of time----and they take the wrong things for granted.
stephen
Edited 12/19/2008 8:08 am ET by Hazlett
oom & gloom,survivalist, head for the hills and stockpile food and guns(quote)Not at all doom and gloom........no stockpile of food (would give it away anyways) did head for the hills.......guns, I ain't allowed to have ( but my wife does) :-)Actually I am pretty positive about the whole thing cause I believe....because man has been unwilling to straighten himself out mother earth is about to do it for him.The fox and hare syndrome hits the human race......makes sense to me :)My Blog
Judge Prevents Town From Evicting Amish Families Over Building CodeA State Supreme Court Judge has issued a stay preventing the town of Hammond from evicting two Amish families from their homes in an ongoing building code dispute.More......
http://www.wwnytv.net/index.php/2009/01/09/judge-prevents-town-from-evicting-amish-families-over-building-code/
Town says leniency to Amish unlawful
MORRISTOWN — The town of Morristown has been following state law when it comes to enforcing housing codes on the Amish community, town officials insist.The officials' statements come in response to a lawsuit, filed by members of the Amish Old Order Swartzentruber sect, that alleges the codes, requiring smoke detectors, approved engineering plans and inspections, violate their religious freedom.more....http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20090118/NEWS05/301189955/-1/NEWS
Apart from this specific dispute, "just following the law" has been the excuse for myriad evil actions. Those 'just following the law' are all too willing to ignore the more basic, superior laws that would invalidate the law they're enforcing.
Which, of course, is why we need jury trials .... for every alleged violation. This is our main check against unjust laws - the unwillingness of juries to enforce bad laws has led to the repeal of many.
Not true around here. They build "for hire" around here in N IL. They also build cabinets, etc. But, I believe somebody pulls permits.
It sounds to me like bureaucracy out for blood and a pound of flesh because somebody committed the unthinkable - saying the bureaucrat was _not_ the Voice of Gawd. <g>
I think the Amish probably build damn good buildings. And if they don't, well no lawsuits are going to get filed - it's on their dime. One of the prime movers of the code and all other legal stuff is the need to CYA (CoverYourAss) for all parties concerned lest somebody down the line sue them and ruin their day. This doesn't exist in the case of the Amish.
They take care of their own and if they _ever_ sell the land, there will be disclaimers up the ying-yang for all sorts of stuff, including the buildings.
I'd say that if your group lives like the Amish for generations, I'd have no problem with your not paying permit fees. You would cost the city far less than any other group. Specific problems which arose can be handles on a case by case basis. I think the Amish have a pretty savvy attitude toward what works and what doesn't in the way of health, building, farming and such. They can be relied upon not to continue practices which cause problems, so saying that the code is saving the world from disasterous building is hogwash in their case.
They promulgate a really good product (themselves). The product consists of far more than merely claiming religion like some hippy minister with a mail order diploma. They are a healthy effective community which evolved over a long time and they actually _practice_ some seriously life-affecting beliefs which none of the rest of us even approach. They do this while producing good products for commercial trade and without causing problems for the rest of us.
It looks to me like a bureaucratic and legal hissy fit because those guys are so used to having the big stick and, more important, to eveybody bowing and aknowledging that yes, they ARE the ones with that big stick and No there isn't anybody else with a bigger stick!
And I mostly respect inspectors and the job they do. But this _isn't_ their job.
Rufus
Excellent post.
Many local governments require that a house must be up to code before it's sold. That would seem to solve the Amish dilemma.
Using that proposal, if the Amish build a house without permits and keep it in the family, it'll be OK. But if they decide to sell it, it'll have to pass inspection. Knowing that part of the deal before building, they can decide whether to comply with codes or not.
That would work well for other non-conformists as well.
Edited 12/14/2008 10:55 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
The rural township in NY State where I've lived for many years used to be very easy going about permits and codes. As long as the BI knew you, the whole permit and inspection process was basically a wink and a nod. And no one complained either.
It was only when a big developer showed an interest in building higher density housing that the old practices changed, and drastically. An outsider with a high priced law firm, he brought the local building department and the entire town government into the present...rapidly.
In order to make him comply with code, the rest of us had to follow suit. I guess it was inevitable but I sure do miss the old days.
If you were willing to adopt their life style and beliefe system You too should have that.. the constitution does grant a great deal of deferance to seriously held religious beliefs.
To live as you do however means you need to conform to the rules and laws we all accept..
Are you willing to give up electricity phones, cars, power tools, etc.. Will you dress simply and humbly and forsake all bright colors?
Will you tithe and spend much of your time in prayer? etc.
That doesn't make much sense to me. If I prove to the proper authorities that I live simply, that exempts me from the fees charged to every other citizen? Who decides when someone deserves to be exempted.
That's the thornbush of it, where does government end when religious rights are involved. It doesn't matter how much they "sacrifice" according to our standards, They do make that choice to continue living that way.
To what someone else said about it the building falls down they are only hurting themselves- they do work quite a bit for contractors (mostly foundation work around here, but framing too) they build those sheds, they saw lumber. All to pay their taxes which are quite expensive for them. That work doesn't get inspected and their price is way lower than any one else can do it for, who does that hurt?
The bigger part of me says leave them alone, but a little says if they get a break why shouldn't I? What makes them more deserving because they don't have modern convinces. Inspectors are willing to make a lot of concessions for them, basically the inspector has a job to do and when they are throwing up 6 bedroom farmhouses the local government has to step in and stop it. They build a lot more than those who don't live around them would think.
The Amish and Menonites I've met and dealt with are more likely to overbuild then underbuild.. They believe deeply in sustainable use of resources which requires such overbuilding to last long enough to grow replacement tress.
I agree that I worded my arguement poorly. It's not merely a matter of living simply rather it's a matter of religous belief.. There is an Indian tribe out west which has the legal right to use"magic mushrooms" otherwise illegal in their religous ceremony. That is another example of deferance to religion.. as I believe some requirements of Koser law are exempt as well.
frnchy---- i don't think there is any Amish prohibition against bright colorsthe area JJ and I are talking about---you will see plenty of women in pretty bright colors-------but they will be plain,solid fabric--no patterns.
stephen
"i don't think there is any Amish prohibition against bright colors"The prohibition is against vanity. Of course, that is an internal sin, but it can display in outward ways.so if everyone else in their group wears solid colours and one of them decides to try plaid, argyle or paisley, THAT could be seen as a sign of vanity and make the tongues wag. It all varies from one group to another. Some do not have mirrors in their house for the same reason. You are suipposed to be pointing to God and worshipping HIM instead of attracting attention to yourself
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Some do not have mirrors in their house (quote)Smart people...this is something I've been thinking about doing myself for a while now.....cause the image I have of myself just doesn't jive any longer with the old fart in the mirror......My Blog
I believe that matters on which sect they are members of.. liberal sects allows such while more conservative sects allow only black or white..
Just doing an internet search will provide you with all manner of information - and pictures - on the Amish and Mennonites.
I think you'll note quite a variety of fashions from group to group ... and little variation within groups. Nor, for that matter, is this an issue confined to the Amish alone. Central Missouri / Kansas / Arkansas is rife with sundry non-Amish groups that live in limited contact with the "modern" world. The western part of the U.S. likewise has any number of 'splinters' from the Mormon establishment. (Please, let's not get off track into unrelated issues!)
Whatever else might be said of these groups, they are communities in their own right. In many ways this whole permit issue is more about the "Community of Anywhere, U.S.A. vs. the Community of the XYZ Church." It's simply amazing that government will tolerate all manner of illegal activity - as long as they don't feel that their monopoly is threatened. Just ask any shopkeeper ... ask him about the graffitti he has to repair, and the sigh ordinances that he is subjected to. (So much easier to officially ignore the spray-can artist!)
Remember, the "sheriff" was originally created to collect the king's taxes .... not to protect little old ladies from thugs! It's still the same thing ....
The Amish seem to operate under the presumption that, if they leave us be, we'll return the favor. Alas, many of us seem to see this as an invitation to prey upon them. When such is done under the color of government, it is especially offensive.
As long as I'm not buying one of their houses or barns and they're not on the grid, so there's no danger of fire...what's the problem? If they want to build whatever, let them build.
I'm knee deep in Amish and Mennonite around my way.
Around here anyway,
They do build for hire
BUT
NO MATTER WHO BUILDS IT?
A permit must get pulled if it's a contract job.
Not so much if it's their own on their own property.
Don't know about N.Y, OH or IL, but the Amish around here are rolling in cash.
I recall reading about the Amish way of life and the children being allowed to
learn the skills to live and serve.
Some of the english have protested that child labor laws are not followed.
Also some of the nearby cabinet makers, for example, say they cannot compete when the Amish community allow their children to work.
cannot compete when the Amish community allow their children to work.(quote)i made custom furniture, including chairs.........one day I went to Amish country to talk to a guuy who owned a pretty large chair factory......he showed me around......all the machines......and the children working them together.........in harmony.......That was the last day I tried to make a living as a chair maker.......Was I pissed?..........No. Was I impressed?.......yes.My grandson (the video game expert) is going to be so far behind in the brave new world we are facing.......One the Amish will, I'm sure, slide into without skipping a beat.My Blog