Check out the latest issue of Coastal Contractor as it has more info on the Chinese drywall fiasco.
Apparently, some homeowners are now claiming GP and USG rock has harmful issues too? Wow.
I thought there might be some work for some of us fixing those homes but now with so many claims and so many scams (Miami Herald has an article about scammers) I think legit work from it may be a long ways off.
Interesting
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Replies
Any time you put a potential pile of money on the table, lawyers will try to get at it. I doubt any of the USG and GP homeowners really want to rip out all their drywall and replace it but they would take a nice cash "settlement" if it was available.
I may be involved in a real drywall house (one of the originals) in Cape coral, doing an electrical assessment. I am going to do it for free, just because I am curious. I am still waiting to see if it closes.
If I do, I will put together a package for you all.
The real question at this point is whether wire, under insulation, was affected and how did it affect breakers, devices and panelboard rails. This is a house that already had the AC evaporator fail.
Yeah, you are right about that!
My concern would be in doing any of these homes that you are almost commited to doing all of the items with regards to the electrical and AC. What if you redo all the rock and the AC yet don't touch the wiring? If there is the slightest problem with any electrical items down the road, you're going to get a call and be asked why you didn't fix it then? Even though they will completely forget about the added cost at the time...
If I get to do this, my plan was to inspect the wire for damage. If I see any, strip it back and see if it is under the insulation too. If not I would just replace the devices if I thought they were bad.
I plan on cracking a few open to see.From what I understand HVAC evaporators and plumbing take the worse hit because of the presence of water that allows acids to form.
Something that was dry might not have any significant damage from this ... but I want to see for myself.
A good idea. Takes lots of pictures and document the hell out of everything!
I just talked to my flipper buddy and he said there is suddenly a bidding war going on with these distressed homes. A month ago you couldn't give one away.
I did a consult on the electric in another junk house for another friend (Jim Walter "shell house" finished by Harry Homeowner). The place is total junk and they have it bid up over $80k with bids still coming.
Based on the notice on the door there is about $5000 in code enforcement liens on it
I'm having a hard time believing your friend's story. There are still thousands of brand new 3/2's sitting vacant in Lehigh and Cape Coral for sale for under $50,000.00. Since there aren't any Jim Walter homes in the Cape the one your friend is talking about must be in Lehigh. House prices in Lehigh are still going down, not up and of course Jim Walter homes are below the bottom in terms of size and appearance. Average sales price for 1400 square foot living area homes in Lehigh was $30-$35,000.00 last month.
The flipper guy was trying to get the CC chinese drywall house for $15k. That is the one that was bid up on him.
The 80k Jim Walters house is in San Carlos Park, another guy, looking for a house to live in.
He is not really finding all of those brand new <$50k 3/2s you speak of but he is not looking in the cape (owns a truck). He did find one in the fumbuck part of Lehigh for $70k. It was a pretty place but he didn't want to be that far out.
Edited 5/13/2009 12:03 pm ET by gfretwell
I bought a paint sprayer form a guy in Lehigh last month. He was living in a First Homes house that had sold as high as $245,000. He told me he had been there a month and had paid $50,000 but had looked at the identical house in north Lehigh for $20,000. The $20K house needed about $15K in repairs and he didn't like the location. Across the street from him is a brand new, 2600 sf, 2 story house with an $80K asking price. I have a really nice, 1800 sf, 3 year old brand new house off Gunnery that I'd love to get $60K for but can't. I've got $35K in fill dirt on the lot.
My house hunter friend found a new house off Gunnery near 23d/Rt 82 and down by the drainage ditch but they wanted $70. The vacant house up the road was tagged with MS13 gang signs.
My house is 3 lots from a ditch, I mean canal. There was a brand new house right on the canal but the gang bangers got hold of it, vandalized it, spray painted gang symbols and broke out all the windows. The county demoed it down to the dirt. Brand new 2000 sf house, never lived it.
The one he looked at was 2800 Vera, The one with the gang tags was 3604 24 st. It was abandoned at the FEPAC
May 12, 2009
Written by Ted Cushman
Edited by Sal Alfano
Chinese Drywall Plot Thickens~
Hard information remains elusive on the causes of the off-gassing problem associated with imported Chinese drywall. But the story is far from over, and it continues to attract national attention. In one recent report, CNN tells the story of a family whose doctor has instructed them to move out of their nearly new, million-dollar dream home because of continual respiratory complaints ("Get out of house with Chinese drywall, doctor tells family," by Rich Phillips). The health issue adds a whole extra layer of potential liability onto what appears to be a clearly established pattern of damage to wiring and air conditioning coils.
There's also a troubling claim, so far unconfirmed, that the problem may extend to drywall made in the United States. A new class-action lawsuit names Georgia-Pacific and 84 Lumber as defendants, and points to drywall made in the U.S. with synthetic gypsum (which contains calcium sulfate derived from power plant stack scrubbers, rather than mined from underground mineral deposits). According to the suit, G-P's synthetic gypsum drywall has excessive levels of sulfate, and can off-gas and cause the same problems that have been linked with Chinese-made imported drywall. So synthetic gypsum, previously touted as an earth-friendly recycled product, may now have to cope with a stigma because of this newly alleged defect. Hanley Wood's EcoHome covers that story ("Florida Lawsuit Claims GP, 84 Sold Dangerous Drywall," by Craig Webb).
And in another mysterious development, at least one Florida homeowner is alleging that domestically-produced drywall — this time, a National Gypsum product — is causing similar damage even though, according to one expert, samples of the drywall do not release sulfur compounds in laboratory testing. Sarasota's Herald-Tribune covers that story ("Another drywall mystery inside the walls?" by Aaron Kessler).
In an advisory brief for builders facing legal action, attorneys Stephen Henning and Patrick Schoenburg, of the California law firm Wood Smith Henning and Berman LLP, urged defendants to mount an active, detailed defense of any tort claim. Health-related claims, in particular, should be challenged case by case at the level of the evidence, argued the attorneys:
"Whatever procedures are put into place, defendants cannot allow their right to demand individualized proof of exposure, causation and injury to be taken away, even if plaintiffs are not alleging serious injuries. Allowing this to occur plays into the hands of plaintiffs' attorneys, who want to take the easiest, cheapest route to obtaining a settlement. Every plaintiff has a unique health history and vulnerability to injury. The duration, level and circumstances of each plaintiffs' alleged exposure is particular to that individual. It is each plaintiff's burden to produce evidence on each of these points. If the cost to obtain such proof exceeds the potential recovery, the claims will end. However, if defendants allow claims to be made and settled easily, on a mass basis, the claims will certainly continue."
Louisiana attorney Scott Wolfe's Chinese Drywall Blog took a closer look at one vulnerability for defendants in Chinese drywall lawsuits: the "pollution exclusion" that insurance companies may rely on to avoid covering builders for liability in off-gassing situations. A Texas court recently ruled in favor of the insurance company in a case involving carbon monoxide where coverage was denied, reports Wolfe. But Wolfe says the issue could play out in various ways depending on the state, and also depending on the facts of the case. Read more in "Pollution Exclusion at Center of 5th Circuit Decision this Week," by Scott Wolfe.
Meanwhile, the drywall problem is attracting increased attention at the national level. Senators from Florida and Louisiana have called for a nationwide recall of Chinese drywall, reports the Palm Beach Post ("Sens. Nelson, Landrieu call for recall, temporary ban on Chinese drywall imports," by Allison Ross). And the U.S. House of Representatives voted to order a Federal probe of the impact of the Chinese drywall problem on foreclosures and on homeowners' insurance coverage ("House to probe drywall fallout," by Gary Taylor).
Louisiana Senator Landrieu has also requested hearings by the Senate Commerce Committee, according to the New Orleans Times-Picayune ("Landrieu calls for Senate hearing on Chinese drywall," by Kate Moran). And Chinese drywall may have been a factor in a shake-up at the U.S. Consumer Products Safety Commission: President Obama has announced plans to increase the Commission's size from three members to five, and to replace current chairwoman Nancy Nord. The Sarasota Herald-Tribune covers that story here ("Obama aims to oust chief of consumer safety over drywall," by Aaron Kessler).
And if the drywall problems themselves aren't enough trouble for Floridians, homeowners run the risk of being burned twice — once by the drywall itself, and once by fraudulent offers to "fix" the problem. The Florida Attorney General's office has warned about scam artists offering bogus solutions to the drywall problem, costing thousands of dollars, that won't actually help. The Miami Herald has this report on the scam problem ("Consumers warned of drywall repair scams," by Nervi Shah and Patrick Danner).
Stay tuned for Coastal Connection's continuing coverage of the Chinese drywall story.
http://www.coastalcontractor.net/cgi-bin/filereader.pl?template=1
so many possible responses..............
1/ i've never heard of this. as far as i know, canadian drywall is made with good old canadian gypsum, which explains why saskatchewan's economy is doing so well.
2/ i am shocked - shocked i say, that a product from china is of inferior quality and is causing health issue. anybody remember the milk/melamine fiasco?
3/ i'm really not surprised. what do you expect when people only care about cost? boycott chinese products, i say. which of course means boycotting walmart. i've never been in a walmart, and i never will be. walmart is evil incarnate.
4/ how much less expensive is chinese drywall than american or canadian? what's it like to work with?
It won't just be Walmart your boycotting. As a matter of fact, check all of your tools that you recently bought. Check any new fixtures, plumbing, electrical, etc...When I think about it, check everything that you have bought other than groceries.
I'm one step ahead of you. I ALWAYS look at the label and if I see "made in china" I'll put it back unless I absolutely do not have a choice. Anything sent over from China will be junk, you can count on it. It sickens me.
check yur groceries too...
juice, dairy, fish, crustations, veggies.....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
add Hershey's chocolate to the list....yup....not all types, but enough to make me shy away from the brand completely.
not just the health thing, either.......................................it's the JOBS
eta: makes you said when you know the history and legacy (housing/health care, etc.) the company founders established and now the new bean counters are f..ing up
I'm not flippin' you off.........just counting cubits
Edited 5/14/2009 7:38 pm by oldbeachbum
and Nestles...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
If you don't like Chinese stuff, and don't like Walmart, better stay out of Canadian Tire then.
Something like 30% of Canadian Tire stuff comes from China, and they're aiming to bump it up to well over 50%, just like Walmart.
my problem with walmart goes beyond china. union busting, illegal labour practises, substandard working conditions, but mostly their sheer greed.
Greed huh? Tell me about it. Would the greed include the 25 billion dollars a year they save shoppers every year? How about their new $10.00 prescriptions? How about their low cost walk-in medical clinics?
Until people like you take over the rest of us still have a choice where we spend our money. Walmart happens to be the store of choice for a hundred million American shoppers. People can choose to shop at Walmart, Target, K-mart and I'm sure thousands of local discount stores and yet the majority choose Walmart. Why does that bother you so much? Walmart does more business by April every year than Target and K-mart combined.
So, what is it about Walmart's success with their customers that is so bad? Are Target and K-mart greedy too since their prices are higher than Walmarts?
I'm not a fan of shopping at Walmart. I think their customer service is close to non-existent but apparently it doesn't bother those who do shop there.
okay. you asked for it.
walmartsucksorg.blogspot.com/ - 607k - Cached - Similar pages
http://www.alternativesmagazine.com/30/baynton.html -
http://www.walmart-blows.com/
ragingtantrum.com/?p=655 - 90k
http://www.businesspundit.com/why-walmart-sucks/
http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/walmart120604.cfm
http://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3.html - 20
walmartwatch.com/press/releases/wal_mart_spies_on_wal_mart_watch_ employees/ - 28k -
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html - 54k -
http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/020707walmart.html - 37
http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5108119/walmart-sucks - 44k
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html - 54k -
reclaimdemocracy.org/walmart/conference_papers_globalinsight
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/04/orwell-watch-wal-mart-ceo-wants.htm
http://www.helium.com/debates/139253-is-wal-mart-bad-for-america/directed_sbs? item_id=1447940-big-box-retail-effects..
wakeupwalmart.com/facts/ - 66k
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10208246/wal-mart-to-close-union-targeted-store-- report.html
http://www.app.com/article/20090417/BUSINESS/90417033/1003 - 81
walmartwatch.com/ - 54k - 5 hours ago
http://www.monthlyreview.org/0405luce.htm - 17k -
http://www.newrules.org/retail/news/report-finds-walmarts-low-wages-cost- taxpayers-millions
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/13/opinion/13krugman.html -
http://www.myaea.org/PDFfile/ASJ/Wal-Mart%20Tax%20Schemes.pdf
http://www.alarise.org/WALMARTREPORT.pdf
londoncoalitionforsustainablecities.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/everyday-low -wages-the-don't take it from me, there are literally millions of these on the net.
okay. you asked for it.walmartsucksorg.blogspot.com/ - 607k - Cached - Similar pageshttp://www.alternativesmagazine.com/30/baynton.html -http://www.walmart-blows.com/ ragingtantrum.com/?p=655 - 90k http://www.businesspundit.com/why-walmart-sucks/http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/walmart120604.cfmhttp://www.pbs.org/itvs/storewars/stores3.html - 20walmartwatch.com/press/releases/wal_mart_spies_on_wal_mart_watch_ employees/ - 28k -http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html - 54k - http://www.now.org/issues/wfw/020707walmart.html - 37http://www.docstoc.com/docs/5108119/walmart-sucks - 44khttp://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html - 54k -reclaimdemocracy.org/walmart/conference_papers_globalinsighthttp://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2008/04/orwell-watch-wal-mart-ceo-wants.htmhttp://www.helium.com/debates/139253-is-wal-mart-bad-for-america/directed_sbs? item_id=1447940-big-box-retail-effects..wakeupwalmart.com/facts/ - 66khttp://www.thestreet.com/story/10208246/wal-mart-to-close-union-targeted-store-- report.htmlhttp://www.app.com/article/20090417/BUSINESS/90417033/1003 - 81walmartwatch.com/ - 54k - 5 hours agohttp://www.monthlyreview.org/0405luce.htm - 17k - http://www.newrules.org/retail/news/report-finds-walmarts-low-wages-cost- taxpayers-millionshttp://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/13/opinion/13krugman.html -http://www.myaea.org/PDFfile/ASJ/Wal-Mart%20Tax%20Schemes.pdf http://www.alarise.org/WALMARTREPORT.pdf londoncoalitionforsustainablecities.wordpress.com/2008/07/31/everyday-low -wages-the-
don't take it from me, there are literally millions of these on the net.
And they all say about the same thing.
This discussion belongs in the Tavern.
I'fve seen all manner of product at WalMart- but I have yet to see sheets of drywall - Chinese or other! Let's keep on topic, please.
From the various relevant links, it appears that the explanation that I posited here was spot-on; the troublesome product has incompletely refined material in it.
So, how do you protect yourself from buying it? There's a simple answer: look for the UL label. While UL is not, per se, a quality control organization, they DO have a lot to say about fire protection. The conduct factory inspections, and perform follow-up testing of listed products. As I asserted earlier, incompletely refined gypsum will not have anything like the fire resistance it should have.
Otherwise, let's put things in perspective. It appears that the 'bad drywall' claims are concentrated in places (like Florida) that are very likely to have the problem solved by the next hurricaine, and are subject to immense corrosion from other causes (like salt spray).
For decades, we've seem various issues in trailer parks get 'resolved' when the trailer burns. (I've been sceptical of these fires for some time, but that's another discussion). I would not be surprised to find 'bad drywall' homes to have a greatly increased rate of insurance claims.
look for the UL label. >>>>>>>.....
On drywall? I have never seen that.
Absolutely. All of your truly 'fire rated' drywall has either the UL or FM label on it. Often the supplier will offer it as a separate 'firecode' product.
Who uses fire rated drywall in residential construction?
attached garages and mechanical rooms...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
"attached garages and mechanical rooms..."+1. Code here.
party walls too...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
I have never seen any fire rated drywall in any homes here in Floirda. Town home separation walls yes but not in garages or any parts of your typical single family residence.
Any code requirement would not have been in place when these homes were built in 02-05. It might affect new homes going up now but not then.
You will need firecode in the ceiling of any garage with living space above it ... in Florida too.
G,
Correct. Many of the homes in our area that are single story however so it doesn't apply.
Mike
Interesting thread discussion guys.
Keep in mind my original posting wasn't to determine how it happened or who to blame but how we all might obtain some work out of helping to solve the problem. Not sure if we can but I am sure willing to try!
Mike
One interesting part of doing a fix is how to remove and dispose the "toxic" material.
Might be some serious costs involved there. Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
Lennar Homes says it's costing them about $100K a pop. I'd be willing to bet that some of the homes aren't worth $100K.
Good thinking Mike! Hadn't ever thought about if there might be an issue getting rid of the stuff.
Thanks
Not in Florida.
Drywall has a spec or standard..whoever stated that Chinesse drywall meets the specs is at fault.Buy as much Chinesse products as you can..otherwise from whom will the USA borrow money from to stay solvent.
Well, if you want to avoid the risk of using contaminated Chinese imitation drywall .... with the implied cost due to call-backs, let alone lawsuits, etc .... you might consider using it. It's an easy, readily avalable way to avoid the 'toxic drywall' mess.
First of all when these houses were being built no one knew jack about Chinese drywall. Contractors didn't know it existed and wouldn't have cared if they had. We were in the midst of a huge building boom, 1500 houses a month in my county alone. Some of the big builders here had as many as 700 houses in the ground on any given day. Building materials were in short supply with concrete blocks and drywall being especially hard to get. Subs did 99.9% of all drywall work and you were happy that they could get drywall at all. No one was asking what brand they were using or where it came from. The supply houses were doing the best they could do keep everyone supplied. No one did anything wrong.
It's real easy, after the fact, to point fingers but as far as I can see so far no one knows for sure that the problem really is Chinese drywall. A few small samples have been tested and shown to have higher than normal sulfur levels but so far no scientific testing has been done to prove a link to the damage. I expect it is the drywall but it may be years before it's proven.
In south Florida type X drywall is only available in 5/8" or thicker. Your simplistic suggestion that all we needed to do was switch to Type X has a huge price tag attached.
Hindsight is always 20/20; I don't doubt that.
As I explain in another post, the involvement of UL in the manufacture of drywall serves to ensure that the drywall is made using real gypsum, and not just any substance they can make into a slurry. While they -even today - do not check specifically for 'fully refined' gypsum, the quality control testing will quickly reveal if anything but fully refined gypsum is in the mix. This is simply because the other minerals do not have the same fire-resistant characteristics.
As for the additional cost of using 5/8 UL-listed drywall, as compared to using 1/2 generic junk .... well, that cost advantage goes away as soon as you get the first call from a lawyer. It also quickly goes away as soon as you start getting call-backs, and have to start replacing your work.
Regardless of any specific guarantees, or your honorable intentions, if you put up defective product, you're on the hook to replace it - even if the defect is discovered long after any usual warranty period.
We can't turn back the clock and change yesterday - but we can take steps to protect ourselves today. As for the defective drywall issue, looking for the UL label is (I believe) a quick, easy, sure way to keep from making the same mistake again.
I take it from your post that you aren't in a position where you have to bid to get work. I do. If I bid a drywall job that calls for 1/2" and I use 5/8's I simply won't get the job. The drywall wasn't "generic junk" either but was sold by a well known European maker.
Do you check the materials your subs use? Do you know the brand of wire your electrician uses? Tar paper? Nails? Do you where the cement in your concrete comes from? Of course the answer is "no" for the same reasons builders had no reason to be concerned with the brand of drywall their subs used 3 and 4 years ago.
Hindsight is always 20-20. It's easy now to sit back and judge someone elses's actions from years before but not so easy to know what tomorrow's disaster will be.
Edited 5/17/2009 7:53 pm ET by florida
Actually, I do have to face bid work, though the majority is service. True enough, there are times when someone has a price so low as to defy belief - I just lost such a job.
Yet, I'm not running a charity. If someone wishes to bankrupt themselves, so be it.
More to the point, I get a fair amount of work following after the low-bidder, fixing his mess while the low bidder and customers have their lawyers arguing. Or, alternatively, I find a fair amount of work following after the low-bidder, making the changes that the customer REALLY wanted.
Every business has to meet it's expenses. That's one fact you can't escape. Run the numbers on a single call-back, and you see that your profits quickly disappear. You simply cannot afford to use the cheapest materials available. There's a reason the local 'big box' is not my primary supplier.
I won't deny that it takes time for things to sort themselves out; the 'toxic drywall' issue took a couple years to brew up. There's no sense living in the past .... the question is: what will you do today? With everyone now worrying about the 'bad stuff,' you need a way to assure your customers that this problem won't repeat itself.
THAT is my entire point: look to the UL label as a way to stack the odds in your own favor. Bids? I'll bet we start seeing job contracts start addressing the point.
The other alternative is to base your business model on using defective products, hiring lawyers, and going broke. Personally, I'll let the other guy choose that option.
I suppose that's a large part of the reason reputable contractors shy away from 'tract' work. When the developer insists on the lowest price above all else, even when profits are higher than ever, it's no surprise that every tract seems to get built by 'gypsy' businesses that close their doors as soon as the project is complete - then start anew in the next county before the paint is dry. By the time the lawsuits strat flying, the 'contractors' are but a memory.
You're right: it's easy to look back. Yet, there's something to be said for learning from the other guys' mistakes. One constant is that when materials are obtained from unorthodox sources at ridiculous discounts, problems follow.
It's YOUR name on the job, and YOU have to address the call-backs. Amazingly enough, there are plenty of contractors who use union labor and US Gypsum products - yet manage to make money. By contrast, it is the poorly run businesses that seem to find it necessary to use questionable materials and hire questionable labor. There's a lesson in there somewhere.
I can't tell if you're serious or just obtuse so let me try again. The drywall in question came from our regular drywall suppliers who were trying to make sure they had enough stock. There was no reason at all to suspect that there was anything wrong with it since it was made by a major manufacturer. It was no cheaper than any other drywall and wasn't being sold by the big box stores. No one was then or is now going to switch to Type X drywall just for a UL label. As a matter of fact I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that I could have bought Type X made by the same company which would now be having the same problems.
Our big tracts are all built by reputable large builders. No one else can pull off 2000 houses in 24 months. Lennar Homes, US Homes, Bonita Bay Group, WEstinghouse, Arthur Ruttenberg, KB Homes, KHovnanian and many others.
I'd remind you that American companies have done exactly the same thing in the past. Remember Masonite siding or polybutylene plumbing? Down here in south Florida Tyle L copper pipes have a huge failure rate. Just like the drywall we NOW know these are not good products but at the time they were used they were industry standards.
Not obtuse - just clear.
You have two choices, now that we know there's a problem: you can continue to buy the cheapest stuff you can find (and take your chances), or you can take steps to prevent getting caught up in the mess.
So, how do you protect yourself? Chosing vendors and manufacturers that have reputations to protect is one way - and that's a pretty good way. After all, we can't expect you to perform fire tests on each shipment, in the field.
Yet, reputations and distribution networks are often far more focused on marketing than material. So - is there a third party you can trust to do the checking for you? I say, 'yes, there is.'
While not the purpose of the UL label, in this instance it provides assurance you're really getting gypsum ... and not some power plant slag sandwiched between paper layers. That's the difference the UL label makes - even for products from the same manufacturer.
It's up to you. Sure, there's the matters of thickness, and price .... but it's one way to avoid the mess.
I care not whether the stuff is made in China, or Yugoslavia (Europe). You want to avoid taking chances - with the problem now known to exist, it's like dancing in a minefield - the UL label is the quickest, easiest, surest way for the guy in the field.
I'm not partial to UL at all; this thread has a lot of whining, and precious little in the way of suggestions as to how you may avoid the problem. I provided a way. If you, or anyone else, has a suggestion, let's hear it.
I doubt U/L tests for sulfur outgassing when they test drywall unless the gasses burn. It is only a test of fire resistance as far as I know.
There are plenty of junk products that make it into the market with the U/L stamp. Those 39 cent receptacles may not actually support a coffee pot for a year without burning up but all U/L says is when they stop working the fire will be contained in the box.
You are correct; UL has no interest in the composition of any gasses given off.
Rather, the reason I say UL tests will reveal contaminated or impure drywall lies in the structure of the gypsum crystal. Gypsum has a unique structure that physically traps two water molecules within it. It is the boiling out of these molecules that gives gypsum its' fire resistance. Once all the watr is gone, all you have is talc; chemically the same as gypsum, but without the trapped water.
That's the key; the other intermediary compounds that occur in the process of refining do not have those water molecules trapped within their structure. Therefore, the material will not perform as well as gypsum.
For those who doubt this explanation, all you need do is place a piece of drywall on your BBQ. You will note that, as it heat up, it actually gets wet! This is the forst water molecule being released. Continue to heat it, and you will later see steam pouring out of the piece; this is the second molecule escaping.
You must do renovation only. In the real world of production building you would be a nonstarter.
You are ignoring Florida's post about the shortage, much less specific drtwall with UL listing. It was not available.
I live in the northeast and we had severe shortages of it as well as OSB and plywood during that time. If you wanted to work, you used what was available. This may turn out to bite some large builders in Florida, or maybe we will have some real science available before the large lawsuits start.
I guess I'm a bit fussy; if the proper materials are not available, I don't try to 'just make it work.' Nor will I use counterfeit or substandard materials.
I mean, how would you like it of someone wired your house with baling wire, because copper 'cost too much' or was 'hard to find?" Or that just any old pallet scraps were used in the framing?
Whatever the excuse was 'back then,' now that we know there is a problem, it strikes me as criminal to continue to use defective materials - so I offered a way for today's contractor to avoid the risk.
Perhaps that does make me a 'nonstarter' in the 'world of production building.' I take that as a compliment. Perhaps there's a reason so many 'tract builders' are the target of class action suits - to the point that they devote great efforts in hiding their identity and denying any responsibility.
Oddly enough, I grew up in an area that was the focus of explosive growth. THAT market was dominated by two firms. One was a corporate leviathan while the other was always ready to do things a little better. Both made money at the time, yet even then, it was only the 'deep pockets' of the large guy that allowed him to penetrate the market. Such a distinction continues to this day, where the 'not so little guy's' houses retain value much better than the the other houses.
Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever seen a development market itself as "Cheap shacks for the unwashed masses - we cut every corner to save your dollars!" Rather, they all seem to claim to be deluxe, exclusive, etc.
For those who can build Yugos, and sell them as Rolls-Royces, yours is not an ethic I admire.
How do you know you have never used a counterfeit part?
If they tricked your supplier and it looked OK to you, I doubt you would really know the difference.
This drywall did come through Knauf who had a pretty good reputation until now. I doubt anyone really thought there was that much that could really go wrong with drywall.
That's where the UL mark has value ... it is testimony that a third party has evaluated the product, and has monitored the production.
I won't contradict Lincoln, though ... in the abstract, you can fool everyone some of the time.
You had a hard enough time finding rockers who put the white side out in those days. Actually checking labels and trying to figure out if they were legit was probably not on any builder's radar. This stuff was usually subbed out and in a big project you had several subs because one company might not be big enough to do all the houses you have going. My wife was closing 2 a week. That's a million bucks a week, give or take a hundred grand, they didn't spend a lot of time looking at where the materials were made.
Fortunately her corporate boss owned a drywall company so they didn't get stung by this.
Do we really want to continue to beat this dead horse, to make excuses, to complain about costs and the inconvenience of it all?
This drywall storm is just getting started. I doubt there were many who deliberately decided to put up bad product.
Careless help? Job pressures? Shortages? What else is new?
I suspect that there are many out there saying "Whew! I missed that bullet!" A natural follow-up thought is 'how can I cover my tail from now on?" I would have expected replies along the line of 'now there's an idea.'
Instead, I get whining. I haven't had this much whining since the grape harvest in the south of France :D
Look, we have a choice now .... we can either take steps today to prevent using bad drywall .... or we can spend tomorrow explaining to the court why we didn't. You can either pay for good drywall, or for good lawyers.
You can be sure that customers are becomming aware of this issue, and will seek reassurances. What will you tell them?
What are you going to say after Southwire (or some other manufacturer you think you know) sells you 100,000' of defective THHN and you have installed it all over town?
That is what happened here. I doubt Lennar got any particular "deal" on this drywall. I bet it came through their normal channels.BTW how do you know for sure you never installed a counterfeit breaker or GFCI? They don't say "counterfeit" on them and when you read the Square D site, the ID process is pretty complicated on some of the suspect units. I am sure the counterfeiters read the same articles we do so they know what they have to change to make the bogus ones look real.
One can raise the standard of 'knowing' to an impossible level. I'll confine myself to saying I have often passed up 'deals' that were too good to be true, and have never installed, or used, anything for which I had the slightest suspicion.
Have I been the victim of fraud? That's an impossible theory to either prove, or disprove. What doesn't change is that such deceit would have been on the part of someone else - not I. Still, it is my duty to exercise 'due dilligence.'
Even assuming a builder did nothing the least bit wrong, and still got burned ... you can't turn back the clock. Crying over spilt milk accomplishes nothing. Yet, only a fool would deny a known problem, and fail to take steps to protect themselves in the future.
Which brings us back to the drywall issue. Since we now know bad stuff is out there, how do we avoid buying it? This thread is well past 70 posts, and I seem to be the only poster who has suggested a practical way to avoid the bad stuff: look for the UL label.
Maybe that was my error; perhaps the audience is not interested in solutions at all, but would rather speculate as to my personal qualities. Look, I could be the worst possible person, and it wouldn't change the drywall issue one bit.
Do we want a solution - or just a crying session?
If others have solutions, I'm all ears.
Okay, once more and for the last time. THE KNAUF DRYWALL THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HAD A UL LABEL IF IT WAS TYPE X. BUT, NO ONE EVEN SELLS THE STUFF ANYMORE SO THE PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED.
but type "X" is sold here...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Your right ... I missed the idea that you were talking about only one product from one manufacturer.
Silly me ... I thought this thread was about the general 'toxic drywall' issue, where no-name, unlisted materials of unknown composition and from unusual sources was used.
I'd be very interested in learning if any listed product has had these problems. If my understanding of the problem is correct, such problems have not occurred with listed materials.
This was not a listing issue at all. U/L does not test every piece of drywall. I am still not convinced this is really that widespread an issue. Once something like this gets started everyone piles on.
As far as I know the real CONFIRMED problems are limited to a small group of homes. Since the water around here contains a significant amount of sulfur, simply seeing black pipes is not going to convince me, especially if it is well water.
"Silly me ... I thought this thread was about the general 'toxic drywall' issue, where no-name, unlisted materials of unknown composition and from unusual sources was used."
Maybe that's the case, but my understanding was that it most certainly was not 'no-name' materials.
I do appreciate your previous post where you do clarify that your theory is simply a theory.
"Silly me ... I thought this thread was about the general 'toxic drywall' issue, where no-name, unlisted materials of unknown composition and from unusual sources was used."Finally we agree! Yes, silly you! Because there is only one company that sold the Chinese drywall and it was never unknown. All that information is in previous posts if you'd bothered to read them.
So when we finally get to the crux of it you've been talking about something you know absolutely nothing about.
I guess we ought to rename the thread "Cheap Knauf Drywall."
If anyone wants to understand the issue with Chinese drywall (and other commodities), I recommend a book I just read, 'Poorly Made in China' (ISBN 0470405589).
Based on what I learned from reading it, if the author is correct, the typical manufacturing plant there will gradually try to get away with more and more and more until they are caught on some issue...it's very, very enlightening.
You're telling that to a guy whose entire family spent 6 years in Shanghai - with frequent trips to inspect factories? :D Still, the rest might benefit!
Thanks for that. Looks like an interesting read.
"Paul Midler takes us for a ride through the fastest-growing economy in the world, revealing what can—and sometimes does—go wrong when U.S. companies shift production to China. Working in the heart of China's export hub, in the country's southern region, he has the advantage of a front-row seat to the no-holds-barred games played between manufacturers and importers. He introduces us to a cast of real-life characters and tells his story with a mix of affection and skepticism for what is taking place in China today. Midler delivers a revealing and often funny tale of life and commerce in a country whose exports touch nearly everyone on the planet."—SARA BONGIORNI, author of A Year Without 'Made in China': One Family's True Life Adventure in the Global Economy" "Paul Midler graduated from college in 1992 with a concentration in Chinese history and language. After working in China for a number of years, he returned to the United States to complete graduate studies in business with a focus on East Asia. Midler holds an MBA from Wharton and a master's in international studies from the University of Pennsylvania's Lauder Institute. In the course of his career, he has assisted companies of all sizes in a diverse range of industries, working directly with hundreds of manufacturers in China." .
"I guess I'm a bit fussy; if the proper materials are not available, I don't try to 'just make it work.' Nor will I use counterfeit or substandard materials."
That's a great plan. Now tell me, if the drywall you buy today is the same brand name as it was yesterday, from the same source, how would you think to ask where it was made?
Say you go out to buy four new tires. Do you actually look at each tire to see what plant it was made in?
In case you missed my suggestion, the one thing that got all this hand wringing started: LOOK FOR THE UL LABEL. In this instance, that's your assurance that the drywall will work as intended.
Perhaps that does make me a 'nonstarter' in the 'world of production building.' I take that as a compliment.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I bet you haven't built any houses. I bet you are just a renovation contractor.
My bet is that you are a small contractor.
My bet is you don't know how a production contractor works.
By the way, do you realize that drywall is considered a commodity?
It is just like 2x4's etc. A commodity. No one but a small time contractor has the time to look at each sheet of drywall for a UL sticker, which means only that the company was trying to seperate themselves from the commodity label.
Frankly, I'm not sure I've ever seen a development market itself as "Cheap shacks for the unwashed masses - we cut every corner to save your dollars!" Rather, they all seem to claim to be deluxe, exclusive, etc.>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
We now know how you think, and that is fine, but do not try to force your values onto everyone. It is these corporations that build the production houses where you as a renovaton contractor will get your future work.
I notice a constant theme in your replies, speculating as to my own business, etc. Right or wrong, the guesses don't matter; they have nothing to do with the issue.
I disagree that drywall is a commodity. I find numerous grades and sized at my supplier. As mentioned before, US Gypsum has made a business out of not being a commodity.
Let's go with that 'commodity' idea fior a moment. We regularly see 'commodities' being involved in these sort of scandals. Last year, it was an ingredient in pet food; this year it was peanut butter.
In both of those scandals, there were manufacturers that 'dodged the bullet' by having instituted their own controls before the scandal hit. They simply didn't buy the tainted product.
They did so, even though the expenses that resulted put them at what you would argue was a competitive disadvantage. These firms certainly paid more for the raw material, and added the expense of monitoring what they bought.
Yet, today, both Purina and Skippy can say "WE never used the bad stuff, and no one got sick from OUR product." Who has the competitive advantage now?
Apply that to your business. You are in a position to tell your customers: "hire me, pay a little for good rock .... hire the other guy, and pay more for a good lawyer."
Then there is the other issue: call backs. You can be sure that the first time anything copper turns green, the customer is going to cry 'bad drywall.' You, as the installer, will be expected to replace the defective product at your expense. Did you make enough on that job that you can afford to put the family up in a hotel while you re-do the house?
Warranty period lapsed? A multitude of subs on the job? Planning to deny, deny, deny? Good luck - all that does is drive up the legal fees.
Go ahead - ask your lawyer. I'd be surprised if he doesn't begin his reply with "now that we know there is a problem, it is critical that you take steps to make dure you are getting good product." What steps might those be?
Well, I suggested one such step: look for the UL label. Instead of thanks, I get all this irrelevant whining and speculation. Take the idea to use or discard as you wish.
disagree that drywall is a commodity. I find numerous grades and sized at my supplier>>
A commodity doesn't preclude there from being different sizes and grades, it is a tem that means there is so much used that is manufactored the same it becomes common.
both of those scandals, there were manufacturers that 'dodged the bullet' by having instituted their own controls before the scandal hit>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Their controls had nothing to do with it. Frankly they were l"You can be sure that the first time anything copper turns green, the customer is going to cry 'bad drywallucky."
I believe the science hasn't proven it was the drywall, yet. You are like the women with breast implants that said that they were harmed. Come to find out it waSN'T THE SILICONE.
Aside from the debate over cost and its usage and UL ratings and all....
I got some unsolicited email today (wouldn't call it SPAM exactly) from a PE who has started Chinese Drywall Mitigation as part of his services. He mentioned using some coating and spray coverings which I am not sure will exactly resolve the issue. I have even seen claims AGAINST them.
The fact reminas however is this guy has taken a step towards action in this and already has some attornies backing him on his website. I know its just a website and they could be bogus affirmations but "someone" is going to call him.
Not that I agree with this course of action but SOMEBODY is going to make money of this and I sure would like to be part of it....just in a legitmate way.
Yup. The lawyers are starting to circle.......
There is at least one rehab contractor offering repairs on TV here in SW Fla
I saw a business card the other day from a company offering "Chinese Drywall Inspections."
I agree with you that at some point there is going to be some business out of this. I just don't see it happening very soon. The average person has no idea if they have the drywall in their homes and even if they can prove they do they would have to prove that the drywall had damaged them. No one homeowner is going to be able to do that. I expect to see the class action lawyer's ads appearing on billboards any day now. There is also the problem that most of these houses were built 3 or 4 years ago and many of the contractors are long gone, certainly the drywall subs are.
Yeah, you might be right. Hopefully, it won't all wash out as class action suits as then I doubt if anyone will see anything out of it all except for the attorneys.
Not proven? You are correct. Yet, from what I have learned about the manufacture of gypdum, it is certainly a reasonable theory.
Now that I have posited a theory, it should be fairly straightforward to either prove or disprove. That is, rather elementary tests can be made on samples from both affected homes, as well as homes that are lacking the problems. If the affected homes also have contaminated drywall, while the 'good' homes do not, then the case is pretty well made.
I am somewhat perplexed to not have seen any reports about such testing having already been performed.
am somewhat perplexed to not have seen any reports about such testing having already been performed>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
How about that. Unproven science again rules the day.
Are the lawyers swarming around yet?
EPA is looking at this drywall as we speak
EPA released a report yesterday.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/5min/story/1056436.html
Nothing earthshattering,and they have not yet conclusively linked the elevated sulfur and other chemicals to the reported cause of the problems.
Legalities get in the way of stating the obvious sometimes.
I'm sure they'll throw lots more money at it.
The science of it?
I think we are seeing it in Florida due to the big boom in building over the 02-05 years.
Don't think a hurricane is going to fix it all. Might help some but I do think its going to become a muddled legal issue.
No real contention with your post but, a UL# will not indicate anything about quality of a particular item delivered to a jobsite.
My understanding is a UL# indicates the manufacturer has paid to have a UL test done to prove the product will perform as indicated in that tested assembly. If something has gone awry at the plant UL would not catch it.
This whole Chinese drywall mess would be easy to trace and prevent if there was a spec. trail.
I.E. - required products > submitted products > approved submittals > single source venders > qualified installers > IOR quality control program.
Of course production may slow down a little ; ^ )
Welcome to my world of commercial drywall, where the paperwork stacks are nearly as high as the stacks of rock.
Mike
Small wheel turn by the fire and rod, big wheel turn by the grace of god.
You have a partial understanding of how UL operates, and you raise some good points.
UL has no interest in the 'quality" of a product. Rathere, their focus is "testing for public safety." There is some complete junk out there - the UL label only assures you that it is "safe" junk.
There is, however, far more to the UL label than someone 'paying' for it. UL's practices on this point are what set it apart from nearly every other testing / certifying / approval group out there.
First, UL actually performs tests. Their own tests, at their own facilities, using samples shipped to them under the direct supervision of their employee at the customers' plant.
Once a product has the UL label, it continues to be manufactureed under the supervision of UL's employees. Not only is the plant inspected; the UL rep will occasionally select samples directly from the production line for shippment to UL, for additional testing.
Finally, the customer pays for each and every label that they use. For this reason, it is common for a manufacturer to sell products both with, and without, the UL mark. While the un-labeled product MIGHT be identical to the listed product, it also may not. The unlabeled products may have failed, or fallen short, in some manner. There's simply no way of knowing.
Now, for gypsum products, it is a physical property of gypsum that makes it so fire-resistant. If the gypsum isn't up to snuff, for whatever reason, it won't pass the same fire testing. This is where the UL mark offers you some - unintended, to be sure - assurance that the product is made from gypsum, and not some partly refined mineral. You can be sure that there is a UL rep out there, in the plant, watching the quality control and sending samples back to UL.
Oh my! disgruntled ex-Walmart employees and some customers with a beef! Who would have ever guessed that with over 1.5 million employees some would be unhappy. Here's a quote from one of your links. "Wal-Mart wields its power for just one purpose: to bring the lowest possible prices to its customers." That's your link, not mine. So where's the "greed" you were talking about? Can we be serious now? I asked YOU a question, What's your beef with Walmart and do you have the same beef with other retailers?
Edited 5/16/2009 9:57 am ET by florida
Not to belittle the condition as I am sure I'd not want bad rock in my home. But, if everyone actually did an analysis on their drinking water they'd be raising cane, too.
True. But since you would have more trouble suing the municipality than you would your builder, they chose to fight the drywall battle instead.
I talked to my buddy who is flipping houses now. He is actively seeking Chinese drywall homes because they are very cheap (even though they still get bid up above the original asking price). The rehab is around $35,000-40,000 BUT there are a couple he found that are not Chinese drywall at all. People see Knaff and immediately assume it is bad. This was manufactured in about a dozen different countries and only the chink stuff is suspect. There is a huge profit to be made if you only have to clean and paint. It is as I have suspected all along. A lot of these "Chinese drywall houses", simply aren't.
He does have a real one in demo now and I want to get a good look at it.