Started a new frame last week and thought I’d share some random stuff. This is a reasonably large addition and extensive remodel. The existing home was gutted and stripped before we arrived. We will handle all the structural demo of the framing.
We’ve spent as much or more time working in the existing home as we have on the new stuff. We’ve removed about a 1/2 dozen bearing walls and replaced them with LVL’s. Sistered countless joists. Headered off a part of the existing second floor to make room for a large ceiling dome. Reworked stair openings. Etc. Pretty cool job.
Anyway… let the games begin!
Replies
Awesome! Right up my alley. Oh, 'cept for the part about having to have a crew. You seem to have a great bunh of guys though. Makes all the difference.
Keep us posted.
The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
Here's some shots some of you may find interesting. We did a large bow bay in what will become the eating area. The plate miters are as follows: 12 degree inside corner, 6 degree outside, 8 degree outside, 8 degree outside, six degree outside, and 12 degree inside. I say that just to give you some idea of how shallow the curve is. It only projects 24" over 16 feet.
Because there isn't room in the design for a typical jack/king stud combo at the windows, I first made beveled jack posts out of 6x6 fir. They're bevel on the outside for the exterior corners and have the inside corner bevels as well. I then made a one piece header to span the openings. Eventually these headers will carry the tapered LVL 'flat' roof which will be a walkout deck for the master bedroom above.
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Love that bow bay framing! Nice stuff.
And here's Alex gang cutting some joists with Eric supervising:
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And here's some demo via forklift pics......
Also notice that large LVL up there.... it's a triple 16" LVL spanning 32' that's now carrying the existing roof load that the second floor exterior walls used to carry. The load is spread out over three point loads on 4x6 PSLs that chase to the basement.
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I always enjoy seeing your work. Thanks for sharing.
did you bevel the jacks w/ the Prazi?
I like the idea on the bay frameing!
Darn wish I could still frame!
Love the demo fork! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I thought that might be right up your alley Blue. Haven't taken many new pics in the last couple days. Yesterday we did a lot of routine stuff... decking, cutting rafter patterns, some more demo and rework in the existing. Today we framed some gables in the rain.
I had a bad day yesterday. Couldn't get out of my own way. Below you can see what I was able to accomplish with my waffle head hammer though.View Image
Nice job. It only hurts for a little while.
Thanks... I'm really proud... I managed that all by myself. ;)View Image
Gunner and I had lunch yesterday. I was describing a framer I'm working with right now (his name's Harry) and I was trying to make a point about how tuned in he is. I said "he's similar to Brian". Gunner shook his head knowingly.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Assuming Harry's not a total bum.... thanks! ;) Gunner take his ball and go home or something? Where's he been.... did I miss something? Tell him I say hola.View Image
Assuming Harry's not a total bum
Harry's the best I've ever worked with and I thought I'd seen some good framers. But his crew is pretty weak. He has 5 guys besides himself and he often has all of them sitting down smoking cigs while he figures something out.
This job is a hybrid stick/timberframe built into the side of a cliff and there's few if any right angles. I'd post some pix, but another mag is doing an article on it and I don't want to conflict.
Anyway, Harry thinks through how what he's doing affects the next trade very well, but he may not have a crew he's comfortable delegating to. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Holla back!
I'm still here just dropped the tavern. Let the "Other Side" have it. The main folders are good enough for me.
I will be festing with Double D this summer though. I'm not even gonna ask you the rhetorical question because I know the rhetorical answer already. LOL
I am working on getting back into running again though. Gonna go pick up a heavy bag today, and I've got some sixty pound sacks of sack create hardened up in the backyard to work out with. I'm gonna be rugged by the time Peachfest rolls around. Come on down I'll let you feel the Guns. :)
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Oooh framing #### my favorite, good pictures DP.
Glad to see ya fighting the good fight. Keep the pictures coming,
Woods favorite carpenter
Glad to see ya fighting the good fight.
Right back atcha. Was thinking of you the other day..... I was walking that steel beam in the picture and thought about the mess you got into. Gave me pause... and I got down.View Image
I spent the day trimming out gables before we stood 'em. Thought you might enjoy some more smut. Crown, crown, and more crown. I did three of them like this today... the one in the pic is the smallest spanning 18'. The largest was 26' IIRC. In the pics you'll notice that the rakes are bumped out an extra 5 1/2" to recieve the brick that will cover a couple of these gables. I'll be happy to trade in the SCMS for a wormdrive again tomorrow.
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are you siding the house also?
No siding for me on this one. Siding is like a "twice a year, when I'm slow" thing for me. Right now, my scope of work is limited to the framing and the 'roof line trim'.... soffits, fascia, rakes, cornice, and some frieze. I have a seperate bid in on the full exterior trim package. This guy's houses get trim soup to nuts... the trim bid is almost 30K. View Image
I was wondereing why you were doing the trim.
Nice job, Brian
Trim is always part of the framing package around here. This architect's trim packages are extensive enough that the GC usually has them bid as a seperate job. However he still needs us to do the fascia and rakes in the least so that he can get a roof on it.View Image
Looks great Brian. I'm curious about what will be supporting the top crown? I was also curious what size the parts are. I think I'm seeing a 1/10 frieze, 1/10 soffit, 1x10 rake. Or, are you using smaller pieces and dealing with voids that are hidden by the crown? Because I'm frugal, I'd probably opt for the voids and use all 1x6. It really becomes a six of one, half dozen of the other though. If I'm using all 1x10's, the assembly is stiff enough that it doesnt' need any blocking. The lower crown braces the soffit quite well. I'm thinking that there needs some blocking for that upper crown though. Nice work, thanks for the pics. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks Jim.
The rake, from top of crown to bottom of the rake board, is 8 1/4". And yes, we used 1x6 for the rake (with a void). The upper crown is supported by solid backing.... 2x stock ripped to the 28 degree spring angle of the crown. It makes the crown rock solid and gives decent backing for nailing off the sheathing. We rip the backing the extra 3/4" for the void to skip the step of packing out that space. I guess I shoulda taken a pic of the back and backing.... didn't even think of it.
I find the solid backing is just worth the effort. On jobs like this we have a table saw set up every single day with a 4x8 outfeed table which keeps me from getting lazy and skipping something like that. When we pull these gables up with the machine I think the solid backing also helps keep joints from popping open from the stress.
The rake soffit is 1x10 with about 3" buried and 6" exposed. Probably could have done it with 1x8 but I stick to the plans on this guy's jobs. The less I have to explain myself to the architect the better! And this architect puts the stink eye on everything. I'm on my best behavior on this guy's drawings. ;)View Image
That all makes sense to me. I kinda figured you had the crown backed because something has to hold up the roof sheathing. The one thing I would have done differently is simply a matter of personal preference on my part: I always make plumb joints on the rakes and frieze. I just don't like the look of the odd angle. In theory, the joint is invisible but in reality it jumps out at me like a sore thumb! To accomplish the plumb joints I ALWAYS laps cut them. I think your stock is 3/4", so I usually bevel lap cut them at 10 degrees...maybe nine...i don't really know becuase I just tip my saw. I don't mess with the bevel thingy madoodle. It won't be long and you'll be panelizing all that stuff out on a table. The more you do it down, the more comfortable you'll get. YOu soon realize that it's all the same...you're just looking at it upside down. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hi Jim,
The lap joint (or Cape Cod miter as we call 'em) is what people like to see around here. Not sure why or when it started but it's one of those "that's how we do it around here things" that sort of takes on a life of it's own.
As far as 'table framing' goes, well we do as much of it as seems practical to me. The real problem is that we rarely (very rarely) have enough space to set up an operation like that without totally clogging the jobsite for deliveries or access. I'm thinking lots aren't quite as big here as they may have been in Michigan or are in Texas. For instance this frame I'm on now will be about 7500 total sqft of finished space.... on about 1/2 acre with finished properties on either side and as well as existing plantings and trees on our lot. Don't know if you caught my photo thread a month ago of the add-a-level we did, but that lot was too tight to even fit the forklift on at all.
We trimmed out another gable today... this one was one we had already stood up because we needed to get it up and out of the way and we didn't yet have any trim on site. This particular gable will have a chimney running up it so it was a good opportunity to shoot a pic of a cross-section of the trim build out. I know you were curious about the crown backer on the rake. Hope you like the pics!
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Edited 5/23/2008 9:39 pm ET by dieselpig
Thanks for that pic! Now I'll have something to think about when I lay down tonite to go to sleep.I do understand the constraints that a small lot situation creates. It's quite a challenge sometimes. I think the crane we were using was better on tight lot situations but in the open subs with more room, the forklift was faster and more useful.Your "brick rack" appears to be only 3.5". I thought you mentioned earlier in the thread that you had built the overhang out for brick with a 5" space. That was one of the curiosities for me because we typically built 4 1/4" brickracks. One of the things that I learned to do when I had a chimney running up like you have is to keep all the blocking out of the first few inches. You've done a nice job of getting them flush. I guess I changed my habits after the masons would run their chimneys up and miss my opening by 3/4" and I had to go back on a few and sawzall a little out. Don't even ask why they couldnt hit our opening....I don't know...maybe it was our fault. But...lessons like that stayed with me forever. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim our brick rake is actually made out of 2x6... so it's packed out a full 5.5" off the sheathing. The archy speced 4" for brick, 1" airspace behind the brick, 1/4" for Mortair Vent with Typar, and then 1/4" air space between the brick and the back side of the frieze board. I love when things add up to nominal lumber sizes! Too bad the rakes themselves didn't though. We had to rip those to 6 3/4" to make his trim package work out.
I hear you about having the masons have a hard time being able to find the hole! But that being said... I kinda have a hard time doing something that I don't think looks good (even if it's going to be covered up) simply because I'm anticipating that someone else won't be able to do their job correctly. We've gone so far as to snap plumb lines on the gable down to the foundation base. If he can't manage to follow that then it's really not my problem. :)View Image
Which piece is 6 3/4". My sense of scale is all off; probably because of the pitch and angle. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue, it's tough to get a sense of scale looking at that cross section because you're staring at a 12 pitch from an odd angle.
The main blocking and rake framing are 6 3/4" rips of 2x. I couldn't figure any other way around it that would be any less work without changing to finished dimensions. He specified the rake to "show" 8"...... 4" of crown with 4" of flat stock underneath it. So take that 8" and subtract the 1/2" reveal (also specified) and the 3/4" rake soffit thickenss and you're left with needed a 6 3/4" base to trim out. When it was all said and done I just found it easiest to rip 2x8 stock down to 6 3/4" and use the straight ones for the sub-rakes and the rest for the blocking.
If I get around to it later, perhaps I can try to scan some of the details of the plans for you to give you a better sense of scale and what we're trying to accomplish.View Image
One of the things that interests me about a cornice like that is the backing. Typically, we would build much simpler assemblies and of course, everything was automatic. On a cornice like yours though, I'd wrestle around with the sub assembly in my mind for days! It would become an obsession for me to figure out the best way, that used the least material. Of course, it had to be easy and fast. Right now, I couldn't think of a better way than what you are doing but it would bother me tremendously to be running that 2x10 sub fascia. Like I said....I'll lose a little sleep about this now LOL. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Typically, we would build much simpler assemblies and of course, everything was automatic. On a cornice like yours though, I'd wrestle around with the sub assembly in my mind for days! It would become an obsession for me to figure out the best way, that used the least material.
It's not so bad really Blue. I cut all that stuff on the ground using my rafter pattern from that gable. It's all figured and fitted on a set of horses and I nail as much together as possible and then just send the parts up with a guy on the platform.
On rakes that don't project as far we'll build full ladder rakes. When we do it this way it's even faster as the build-out is nailed together on the ground. I can often have all the rakes and trim cut before the guys even finish framing the gables. I do usually leave one end of the boards un cut though.... to be able to fit them nicely to any variations in the actual framing itself.
But hey.... if you come up with a faster/easier way... I'm all ears! Fast and easy are two of my best friends. View Image
I'll try to think of a faster way but it's going to have to steal some of my snooze time. Without investing that "roll it around in my head" time, I certainly can't come up with anything faster at this point. Those were the things that would drive me bonkers though when I was framing... Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
DP,
How does your brick rake fasten to the house? Toenailed? You frame them a little different than we do here. With what I see of your method, it is better for a conditioned attic. The way we frame our "chicken ladder" is a pine 1x6 with 2x perpendicular to the 1x, and parallel to the wall studs, and then the cedar brick belt is fastened to the chicken ladder blocks parallel to the 1x. Our 2x is ripped to whatever width is required to get the required spacing. Used to be 4-1/4" like Jim said and then it was increased to 4-1/2" to 4-3/4" depending on size of brick and air spacing required.
I like your overhang profile. Alot of meat in there. Is that Smart Trim? How do you like it? We are getting ready to make the transition from cedar to it. Quality of cedar like all lumber is diminishing.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Hi John,
We can nail our brick rake on in three different places. We frame it as a full ladder so the upper 2X can be nailed right into the blocks for the main rake build out. The bottom 2X can be toe-nailed through the sheathing and into the wall studs. And then every 4' or so we add a block 'on the flat' to the short ladder struts.... this lays flat to the sheathing and allows straight-on face nailing into the wall studs. Seems to be pretty sturdy but I'm always looking for better ideas of course. Like most of my framing methods it's just something I came up with and I really don't have any idea how others do it.... so I'm always open to suggestions.
The trim boards are actually just No2 preprimed pine. I don't like it much, but the architect had a bad experience with Windsor One and now doesn't allow any fingerjointed material on his jobs. I'm trying to get him to give LifeSpan a try as I liked working with that. No2 sucks to work with. Some of it is cupped right off the truck. Other times you spend a couple minutes making a nice tight compound miter only to have a knot fall out after you've got it half nailed off. I won't be surprised to see the architect switch over to all PVC in the near future. There's already a fair amount of it going into this job in places where rot is predictable.
The crown is Ponderosa Sugar Pine. It's the only thing we're able to get that 8005 profile in. So we prime it onsite with Kilz before installation.
Tell me about SmartTrim.... that's a GP product yes?View Image
I'm with your archy on the Fjointed stuff, for the $$$ it sux. Those FJs telegraph and I have seen way too much just plain fall apart.
I used the #2 Pine on my rakes at home, and eave fascia. If I need to R&R something in 10 yrs, at least it wasn't big bucks to start with. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
New book alert; Eckhart Tolle "A new earth"
A must read.
I used Azek on my own rakes and fascia..... I'm hoping for no R&R..... other than Rest and Relaxation! :)
I just don't like actually working the No2. With the cups and what-not....it's simply more work for me. We always have to keep the ROS handy for smoothing smiley face miters and lap joints. Cut 'em long, over lap them, and sand them smooth. Looks nice enough when it's done.... but getting there sucks. At least the FJ arrives on site in good condition and stays that way as long as we keep it dry until it's nailed home. But if it's rotting in under 10 years (which is what I'm hearing) then it's worth the extra effort to deal with the No2. I suppose. ;)View Image
I miss being in the North East and getting 5/4 Sugar pine and all that good jazz..not ever in NC ( in yards) or here. I used a LOT of that when I was in Pa.
I can't quite get myself sold on Azek for my place, I have a deep red trim color, and it hasn't proven it self long term yet in my mind..then the cost..well, I ain't a high dollar framer..(G) Actually, I just have bigger places on the shack that need $$$ more so than a simple rake that I can swap out easy, SWMBO just wanted to see SOME progress up there..so pine it was.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
New book alert; Eckhart Tolle "A new earth"
A must read.
Oh yeah.... I wouldn't trust PVC with a dark color either. Especially red. Even if you could get decent coverage with the paint it'll absorb so much heat that you'll have trouble keeping it on the house I'd bet! I'm no PVC snob by any means dude.... I like wood (in one form or another) myself..... but I just hate painting and trim repair. Especially when I can't reach it from the ground. That was the driving force behind me going with PVC on my house.
In fact, there's places that I used wood where PVC would have been a better choice! But those places are spots that I can easily reach without scaffolding half the house.... like my front porch columns and trim. By the time I got to finishing those spots money was starting to become a bigger concern so I started scaling back the use of PVC.View Image
Threads like this are the meat & potatoes of Breaktime far as I'm concerned.
PVC trim is good and I use it whenever I can ($$$! Yikes!), but I really don't like working with it. Too many years in the shop with the real thing, but it sure beats #2. I have to agree with Duane and your archy on the fj.You may have answered this but what is the sf expansion on this gig and what is the siding to be? Great work man, keep us posted. Reno like this is what I do but on a smaller basis.
There is a special place in heaven for good framers far as I'm concerned.
Thanks Jer,
We're adding somewhere in the neighborhood of 4000sqft of new space... including the garage. With the partially finished basement and attic space the place will be around 7500sqft of finished space. As you can probably see, the entire existing is gutted and most of the wall/room layout is changing as part of this. There's three front rooms in the existing house (2 bed, one dining) that don't really change other than windows and lipstick. Up to this point I believe all my pictures have been taken from the back or sides of the house.
The siding is a mix of clapboards (but may change to Maibec shingles) and brick. "Most" of the gables (with the exception of the dormers, garage front, a couple 1/2 gables and 4 season room) are brick and the rest is wood siding. So I guess... at the end of the day, 5 brick gables and the rest is wood siding.
I agree with you.... of all the trim boards available.... PVC is the worst to work with. It's just awkward to handle and telegraphs any inconsistencies. Even nailing and fastening can be a PIA.View Image
Brian,
Well I built a saw table exactly like yours but out of OSB. Its all I had and if it works out well, I'll build another later out of ply. I have to say that after working with it, it worked really well. I made it a bit longer about 16' total because that is the size of our platform and left a spot to load it up with Hardi for when we side. There is about 9' to the left of the saw and about 11" for the Hardi to sit on, so I can just flip a piece and cut it.
I've been wanting to do this for awhile, but am really glad I waited. Thanks for the pictures. The guys think I'm a fraction smarter than they thought :-)
Pics http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Lot35Muirkirk/photo#5204822641727438402
Nice! Ya done good. It's like my table's long lost brother.... right down to the burn marks from the flush trimming router bit along the top edge. I hope it serves you well. And I appreciate the honorable mention in your photo essay. :) View Image
If that was Smith's, he would have slapped a logo on it somewheres.
jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Smart Trim is an LP product. I have no experience with it yet, but everyone I've talked to has liked it. PVC would be best, but nobody wants to pay for it.John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
Very cool pictures again thanks for putting them up for me, always like the framing pics. I noticed 2x6 walls is that typical for your area? Code? I like framing walls out of them and like walking the plates even more.
Be careful out there, dont need more of us in recovery and therapy. Woods favorite carpenter
don't walk the walls and you won't have to worry, and yes in the northeast 2x6 is pretty much standard.
Thanks for taking an interest in my pics! :) Glad you enjoy them. I'd say it's 50/50 here as far as 2x4 and 2x6. Most additions seem to end up with 2x6... I think it's so they can get the insulation calcs to work.... I don't know much about that stuff. But we still frame plenty of stuff with 2x4 as well. Also seems like the higher end homes are more frequently framed in 2x6.
I think I prefer it over 2x4. The walls seem to be much easier to get and keep straight and I think we can get away with less bracing. We stand everything we can up with the machine now so the weight really isn't a big deal. To tell you truth I really don't walk 'naked' plates very often anymore unless I'm rolling joists or rafters.......haven't for a couple years. Without me really even noticing some things just changed around the time I got married and I unconciously started working a bit safer. But I will walk big beams and the occasional 2x6 wall from time to time. The truth is that if I stay organized and on top of things there really isn't any reason to be up there anyway unless I'm nailing off rafters or joists. I try to lay everything out on the ground or deck now.View Image
Got another shipment for ya Matt. Here's a site built girder truss I made yesterday. I've yet to bolt it together but it's all nailed off anyway. It will carry one end of a 26' long triple 16" LVL ridgebeam via a Simpson Meg 5 connector. I'd never seen a Meg 5 connector before in person... it's impressive to say the least. The truss will be bolted together with 3/4" bolts. The Meg 5 is then bolted to the truss with the same size bolts... and then the ridge is bolted to the Meg 5 with more 3/4" bolts.
In pic #293 you can see the angled knee wall that the rafter end will sit on. In pic #294 you can see the doorway with an LVL header that the joist end will sit on. The truss will be tied down at each of these points with Simpson BC6 post caps.
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Nice girder! Can't say as I have ever had to duild one like that!
Yeah it's kind of a neat thing, isn't it? First for me too. I've built other site-built girder trusses before, but this particular design was a new one for me. These crazy large scope addition/remodels always present new challenges and ideas such as this and I always seem to learn a lot on this type of job. It's great stuff for honing problem solving skills.View Image
Dude that is a honker!
Makes my steel beam this week look whimpy..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
New book alert; Eckhart Tolle "A new earth"
A must read.
Ugly, isn't she? :)View Image
Well good of you to pop in again for me. Good for you on the working-out thing... I haven't been able to do much of anything lately. We've been doing 50-60 hour weeks for awhile now and it wears me out. A lot. LOL!
Hoping to make Peachfest.... but you know the drill. We're going away for a week in July and a 4 day weekend in September.... may be hard to squeeze another break into August, but we'll see.View Image
I got sidetracked talking about Harry last night. The point I was trying to make is that we guys that come after you guys really appreciate a good frame and you probably don't get to hear it 'cause you're long gone before we come around. Nice work.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Thanks Grant, I appreciate the nod. This current job I'm on is run by a very good GC and one of the best architects in the Boston area. It's my second time working with them... which is kind of an honor because it's tough to get a first shot with them... and even tougher to get a second shot. Anyway, point I'm trying to make is that it's a real 'team' atmosphere and it really feels like we're all working for a common goal. If I have a question about the fireplace openings, the mason comes out and answers them. Staircase questions... the finish guy is there. Right on down the line. And we have meetings every Tuesday with the architect, GC, myself, and any other trades that are currently involved or will be soon. A lot of money and a lot of reputations at stake.... it's really nice to be trusted with that and feel like the ultimate goal is a quality house and not a bottom line.View Image
The feeling of the entire group pulling in the same direction is something to savor. I love that sense and it is one of the few reasons I still do what I do .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
it's a real 'team' atmosphere and it really feels like we're all working for a common goal.
I figured out a long time ago to be a team player when you're working for a good GC. I work for about 10-15 GC's and I see pretty much the same subs running the same route I am. It's easy on me when I show up to do a copper roof and see a plumbing sub I've worked with before. He knows the drill for what I need to flash his waste vent and where to put it and how to proceed.
Some of the best jobs I've had have come from architect's referals. It pays to build a relationship with the good ones.
Keep those pix coming. http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Isn't anyone going to say anything about DP "Swinging both ways"?
"It is what it is."
Yer a day late and a dollar short Mike. And it wasn't all that funny the first time around! LOL....View Image
Awe man! I must have missed the post. I am happy that you took it well. Mad respect brudda!
"It is what it is."
I always wondered why every builder didn't do the same thing. It only makes sense to send the different trades out whenever a new framer took over. Also, every builder should publish a list of all his warranty and service requests to all his different trades. That way, they would know what the complaints are and hopefully mitigate them pre-emptively. I guess that's asking alot. Congrats on you for landing this gig. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm getting back into it slowly. My ribs finally stopped hurting about the end of February. And since I stayed on the road from Early October to the end of February my good eating habits went to ####. I've got to shed some weight to get back down to what I was before. About fifteen pounds now. No biggie.
PS What Seeyou says above is true. Your name represents a higher standard. Pretty cool to know ya. Not to the level where I want to stop wearing my Diesel wear and frame it like a sports jersey.LOL
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Oh yeah... I forgot about the whole rib thing. That's a tough one. A few months ago I got serious about changing my eating habits. I've gone to a mostly organic diet and am cooking at home every night. I can't really call it a diet... I'm just eating quality food and pretty much whatever I want of it. Lots of fruits and veggies, brown rice, free range chicken, whole grains, etc. I feel about 100 times better, my attitude is better, my energy levels are up, and I've lost some weight too. I had really gotten bad with my eating.... I was doing take-out about 5 nights a week... pizza, fries, subs, etc. Garbage in, garbage out.
Can't bring myself to give up the Monsters, Red Bull, and dip though. If I were Popeye, that stuff'd be my spinach.
When they retire my belt in the Framer's Hall of Shame someday you'll wish you framed that T-shirt a long time ago buddy. ;)View Image
I'm doing about the same thing. Cutting down on the eating though. I can drop a few pounds a week that way and not put much effort into it. If you really want a kick in the jets. Just do brown rice for a week. After three days you notice that your standing an inch taller and your brain is way sharper. Your hair even starts to tingle.
I'm also learning to make my own protein bars . Way better for you then the store bought ones. And a heck of a lot cheaper.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Yeah, the bars get expensive really quick. I eat an organic Cliff bar in the truck every morning with a piece of fruit for breakfast. I think they're like a couple bucks a piece.
I've thought about trying the brown rice diet for a week but I really think I need a lot of calories at work. I've tried other diets in the past (like Atkins and So. Beach) and had bad headaches, shakes, and energy problems at work. I really feel great lately though. I feel like I'm doing a much better job at making what I eat work for me.... starting to think of food as fuel again... and not just a way to make me happy and full. When I think about what I was eating a few months ago it literally makes me feel ill..... just empty calories, chemicals, and fillers. That's no way to treat a temple like this. ;)View Image
Have you tried soy shakes? I have been drinking them in the morning as a breakfast replacement. I feel alot better and not so hungry at lunch time. I haven't lost any weight but I haven't gained any either.
"It is what it is."
My wife bought some whey protein powder shake stuff but I haven't tried it yet.... is that the same thing? Looked pretty good but I didn't have the heart to wake her up at 5am with the blender running! (she works a lot of nights)View Image
The whey is supposed to better for weight loss. It is made from milk protein. It is still a clean source of protein. Try to mix it half unsweetened soy milk and half 2% real milk. Less calories and less fat.
"It is what it is."
Edit for spelling.
Edited 5/17/2008 9:33 pm ET by ChicagoMike
I use protein powder too. I mix it in my homemade bars or make a shake. I've also found a great between meal snack that's good for you and fills that hole in your stomach until lunch. Take a scoop of oatmeal and a scoop of protein powder and mix in a little water. Believe it or not it don't taste that bad. It's a one hundred percent benefit to your body and gives you great fuel. Great for back packing too.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
That oatmeal snack reminds me of how my wife eats. She eats every three hours..... she has a small high protein meal followed by a snack of complex carbs three hours later and she pretty much sticks to that routine day in and day out since I've known her. She's 103 lbs with ripped abs and doesn't work out at all. But she also doesn't eat any white flour or sugar.... I try to stay away from both as well but I just can't do it to the degree that she does. Even stuff like Annie's organic ketchup and organic unsweetened apple sauce has too much sugar for her. Wish I could be so determined.View Image
My biggest problem is staying in that habit of eating right. I know how to do it but I have to constantly think about it. It's a natural for some people like your wife. But for us we've been brainwashed to eat wrong.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
I never thought of adding oatmeal to the shake. Thanks, I'll try it.
"It is what it is."
I dump at least a scoop of oatmeal in almost everything. Don't even cook it. Search youtube for home made protein bars. It's seems that oatmeal is in nearly everyone of them. Good stuff. And cheap.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Using food as a tool is what really worked for me when I dropped sixty three pounds last year.
The wife and I are concentrating on stretching our dollars and getting something back for each one. It's working pretty good so far. That's when I got cheap with the snacks and started making my own. It takes less then five minutes to make a days worth of treats. And I like them a lot better then all that chocolate and sugar and corn syrup. Like you were saying, cut the #### out of your diet and you feel way better. It's like flushing the sludge out of an engine.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
Couple of books you might want to check out, I haven't read them yet but they're right up my alley and the one is a best seller. I heard the guy interviewed and it was one of those priceless interviews that you wanted to listen to all day.The Omnivore's Dilemma and In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto, both by Michael Pollan In the interview he talked at length about the obsession with food and eating we have in the US and why obesity and bad health is such a problem. There's a lot on real foods vs processed.He has a 7 word motto for everyone,
"Eat food, not too much, mostly plants".I like it.
Thanks. I will check those out. Anything that furthers me from the sugar, sodium, and white flour mind set that ruins the body the better.
Been doing some killer workouts this week. And not really getting sore because I've been doing plenty of protein and also taking Glutemine to help my recovery.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
http://www.michaelpollan.com/indefense.php"Been doing some killer workouts this week"Yeah, I started my running a few days ago, late this year, and I'm really feeling the soreness of how I let up on the workouts. Extra helping of the glucosamine, condroitin & C's helps tremendously. Makes ya sleep well that's for sure.
I haven't built up to running again. I have been using a reaction ball against the side of a building. It's a pretty good aerobic and cardio workout if you run after it when you lose it. And it's great for all your lateral muscles and coordination.
Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man, no time to talk. .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy3LM5_-i1Q&feature=related
I bring my own trail mix: walnuts, raisins, pecans, and a few pretzels. It's actually pretty healthy and gives me the carbs and protein to get me home at night. Keep a bag in your bags and grab a handful every hour. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
you'll wish you framed that T-shirt a long time ago buddy. ;)
I have to admit my t-shirt has been nothing but good luck. I wore it in Vegas twice and hit both times for over $1,000.
I wore it to a NRA fundraiser a couple weeks ago and won a pair of shotguns.
I'm going to try to make it to Peachfest. I'm probably 90% there, unless something stupid happens.
This economic "slow down" has me worried, and I need the break. I'm not good at worrying, hopefully it picks up, or I go broke(again). I don't really care either way, just so something gives.
Luckily, carpentry business is real steady. Although, I paid $3.99 a gallon today. Highest ever.
Still driving the diesel? It's up over $5 a gallon here.
I haven't watched a single baseball game on TV. I've been to a few Pirates games, but have no interest. Stress stinks.It's not too late, it's never too late.
Yeah I'm still driving the diesel... I leave it unlocked at night though. ;) I'd trade it in, but it's 'almost' paid for and I'm sure the trade-in is peanuts right now. Looks like I'm stuck with the pig for awhile.
Gotta find a way to lose the stress bro. Yeah, I know... I'm one to talk. But I know how unproductive it is to worry about stuff. I'm in the same boat as you I think. I've got a truck thats still a year away from being paid off, a $1700/mo forklift payment for another year or so, 3 yr old mortgage, etc. I frequently imagine myself after my wife has left and I'm eating out of dumpsters. Thing is... we've got no control over what happens to the economy. Just keep going to work everyday until there's no work to go to. And watch some baseball. It's soul food.
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Ouch bro!I do that every time I pick up my framing hammer (2x/yr)Beautiful frame.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
What sucks is I'm lefty... so my pencil rubs against it all day. Made a mess of the trim today. Good news is that it looked worse than it hurt. The first 0.05 seconds were horrible but it got much better from there. ;)View Image
'tween dippin' and bleedin' you sure leave a lot of DNA around (I don't even want to think about what's in the lil blue house). ;>)
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
Hey lefty, I am also a southpaw. Do you sometimes find it difficult to explain yourself to the people who work with the wrong hand?
I worked on a crew with all righties and I had to figure out what they meant sometimes. Not the brightest, but I was there cut & layout person, look out!
To be honest, not so much... I never really noticed it anyway. Although I write with my left hand, I'm pretty ambidexterous in a lot of ways. I swing a hammer and throw a baseball with my right hand. I can cut with a circ saw equally well with either hand. I can hammer with either hand as well, but am better with my right hand because that's the one I use the most. "Most" of the time I also use a nailer with my right hand but again... pretty good dexterity either way. I'm a genuine weirdo.
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No, I'm all mixed up also. write-left, swing hammer-feft, play sports -right or left, golf-right
The reason I asked is, I have found that sometimes I have to force myself to think right to understand measurements. Of course that might be the level of my help!
Frammer
I'm a lefty as well, play golf right, bat both ways but have a lot more control hitting right, pool either, can write both but better/faster left, throw overhand left but pitch softball underhanded right...... list goes on and on. I always think its funny when I see someone who can only cut with their right hand, no way can they switch, probably loop off an appendage! I think the reason that you see more lefties do things both ways better is because we had to grow up in the right mans world and therefore had to learn to do things both ways. Damn spoiled righty's never had to do it but the one way!
Hell the first baseball glove my dad bought me was for a right hander, WTF! Tried to convert me but no luck.
Doug
Kill Rightie!View Image
If I try to swing a hammer with my left hand I look like a drunk/stoned monkey.
How did you hit your left finger if you're left handed? or do you swing both ways? :)"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
How did you hit your left finger if you're left handed? or do you swing both ways? :)
Swing a hammer rightie though Eddie. Those poor buggers were holding the nail. But I can swing both ways when I need to...... not that there's anything wrong with that.View Image
dieselpig
Ouch.
Reminds me of driving lead corragated roofing nails.
Rich
What's the steel beam supporting off to the side?
-D
The new steel will carry part of the master suite over the garage.... so the beam is for the garage ceiling/2nd floor.View Image
Brian,
Nice pictures!! Keep them a coming.
Do you have any other pics of your mitersaw station? I've been toying with the idea of building something similar to what you've got that I could use to cut Hardi in addition to cutting lumber.
You really do a nice job, Brian. I'm inspired.
Hey thanks Tim. I'll try and remember to take some more pics of the miter saw station. It's pretty simple but is working out really well. This is the second frame we've used it on. It's wired up with 50' of cord going to a four way box mounted under the table's frame. I built it at the same height as my table saw and stand so it can serve double duty as an outfeed table too. It's built to fit a 12" Dewalt slider. I still have the AD&E with a 10" Makita slider too... I now just use that for trimming out gables and stuff because it's easy to carry upstairs in pieces and works well when it's on a level surface.
I'll take some more pics as we move along.View Image
Ok Tim.... I didn't forget about you. I took some pics of the mitersaw station for you today while I had the camera out.
There's not much special about it. It's a big old ox but it works awesome for framing. It's made out of 2x6 at 24OC and decked with 1/2" ACX glued and screwed with SS screws. It's got 1/2" cleats screwed to it to keep the stock up off the table deck so you don't have to constantly clean the sawdust off the table (made that mistake before!) The cleats are 12" long and the back of them are inline with the saw fence. A zero clearance frame where the saw drops in keeps the saw aligned to them and holds it firmly. Then there's about 10" in front of the cleats and 10" behind them for putting stock that's about to be cut or has been cut. The table is 14' long total... about 10' to the left of the saw, about two feet for the saw drop, and another two feet or so to the right.
It's got 50' of 12ga cord wired to a four-way electrical box mounted underneath the table frame and cord wraps on one end of the table to keep the cord tidy. And a handle on each end for moving it around. Made a set of saw horses for it that keep it a nice height which is also the same height as our Ridgid table saw so it can be used as an outfeed table when needed. Usually we just set up a seperate outfeed table anyway though (for the table saw I mean).View Image
Thanks Brian. I like that design and was talking to our apprentice finish carp (who is framing with us until the next house is ready for trim) about your table and my thoughts and figured I'd draw something up in SU this weekend to see what would work.
I'd set the saw up everyday if all I had to do was drag the saw out and not the stand and outfeed tables.
Nice pictures man!! That king truss is very cool. I can't wait to see how that project comes along. The frame we just started will have some I-joist rafters that are about 29' ridge to birdsmouth. I'm looking forward to that a lot.
I'd be very curious to see your table design Tim. I'll admit that building the table was a bit of a challenge! I was trying to keep the bulk down but still have do what I wanted it to do and have full range of motion of the saw. The sawzall did come up once during the build before I got it right.
We use the slider MUCH more now that we don't have to set the whole thing up every day. It's so easy to just drop the saw in it in the morning and then it's there when/if you need it. We throw everything on it now.... whole bundles of strapping, stacks of studs, anything we need a lot of. I think some people have the impression that miter saws are innefficient for framing..... that couldn't be further from the truth for me! View Image
Brian,
I'm enjoying this thread immensely.
Your mitre saw table is just a moder day variation of what some of us old guys did with the big green Dewalt Radial Arm saws. Cripples and sill packages. blocking and bridging.
Nice setup, and I think I caught where the sawzall came in handy!
Eric[email protected]
All right Hawkeye..... let's see how good ya are. Where abouts were the adjustments made? CSI Breaktime! View Image
My guess (forensic evidence suggests) that you had to make an adjustment to the cut out in the front of the table to allow the mitre handle swingy thingy to move about freely.
How'd I do?[email protected]
Actually the cut out in the front wasn't 'truly' necessary... the saw would still swing freely but it would be a knucklebasher to get it done. I actually had to enlarge the whole drop-in footprint in width (L to R) because those saws swing further one way than the other.... and when I took my initial measurements you can guess which way I measured!
Pretty good guess though.View Image
Your comments about the radial arm saw was exactly what I was thinking! (except I preferred the gray Comet) ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Brian,
I have been quietly following this thread. Great pics and technique.
I am like Eric P. RAS was always set up.
Thanx for sharing.
Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Thanks for chiming in Chuck. I appreciate the support of the thread. It's fun to throw this stuff around. I always enjoy following this type of thread... whether it's Mike Smith or McDesign or Basswood or Stan Foster.... there's always a lot to learn. Hope my thread doesn't lower the bar! :)View Image
Hope my thread doesn't lower the bar! :)
Brian,
This thread raises the bar!
Chuck S.live, work, build, ...better with wood
Never saw a Comet except in some old military reference manuals. Dept. of Navy to be exact. I guess that's where all the SeaBees came from.
Still a couple of the old Dewalts kicking around, some still in use. A man killer in more than one way![email protected]
Brian, Thanks man, this is a great thread. That is some serious LVL you're using there. The first pic, with that unbroken lumber pack, is classic. Every job has different components, the wood, the carps, the weather. Everything really adds up. Budgets, too, and budgets suck. I'm trying to land a really nice frame and going up against a few other guys. It's an "old world" style house with a steep roof that would best be framed balloon style with 16-18 foot walls. There is a courtyard in the interior with a pool, and the house makes a rectangular perimeter around the pool. That means there are four wings. It is like a castle surrounding a mote. The house sits on a corner and the courtyard is well hidden. If I get the job I'll post pics. In my area, anything above 2x8 for a rafter is discriminated. On this job, I am pushing 2x12. I like the table you have set up there. I'm trying to better incorporate my saws into a station. Thanks for the ideas.
Edited 5/24/2008 1:53 am ET by kpatrix
Hey thanks man, I appreciate it. I've seen pics of your work here and on JLC..... some of the stuff you and Tim do is simply mind-blowing to me.... the groin vaults and other complex ceilings in particular. Unbelievable stuff. I can't hold a candle to that business but I'd sure like to try sometime! Hope you get that frame.... sounds like just the sort of project you could do some real justice to. And I'd love to see the pics!
Yeah, everytime I start feeling like a hot rod I seem to come across a thread from you or Tim and get a good blast of humility. Oughta be a crime to cover some of that in plaster.
We're currently phasing into a new code here in MA. It's closer to what the rest of the country is using. 2x8's are now out of commision for us too but I really haven't seen many 2x8 rafters for a few years now anywho. Mostly 2x10 but this particular house is all 2x12.... even the short spans and dormers. This architect loves the beef.
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Edited 5/24/2008 8:18 am ET by dieselpig
Brian,
I drew up the table in SU and realized that I'm going to copy yours nearly identically :-) The only addition I'm making is using those super Quick clamps to clamp a stop down :-)
Thanks for the great idea. I'm going to hopefully build it tomorrow.
Do tell...... about the super Quick clamps for a stop. That's something that's noticeably lacking on my table. It's hard to forget about the stop on the AD&E system.... it's like you're first girlfriend.... you never really do get over it! LOL....View Image
Some of the newer Irwin clamps like this one http://www.amazon.com/IRWIN-2021412-12-Inch-Clamp-Spreader/dp/B000F7DIFM/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=hi&qid=1211739549&sr=8-2
We've found them to be really useful. Sometimes when you are hanging over a ridge trying to hold a long rafter, you can clamp it and use both hands to move the rafter around.
I used them also to cut patterns http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Lot36Muirkirk02/photo#5122089006071920690 or a guide to rip plywood perfectly straight. Just odds and ends. But useful. Sometimes if I'm cutting a short jack that has a steep bevel, I'll clamp the stock down to make the cut. They are a good tool to have around I think. http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Bernies/photo#5154460921361548498
Hey Tim, not to hijack this thread, but where did you get those sawhorse brackets? They look pretty solid.Really cool thread DP. Thanks for sharing.
BTW... I started another photo thread with your name in the title. I went back to that job with the bell curve dormer and took some pics for you yesterday.View Image
Nice stuff man.....don't get to do those sized projects much anymore.
I miss them from time to time....just don't miss the boss that went along with them.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
The HO is gonna get them a pretty nice hacienda. Good work!
What?!!!! You run out of nails?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
LOL.... nah we took Monday off and yesterday was boring. I got some pics though... set that truss and a pair of triple 16" LVL ridges. Lemme cook some dinner first though....
I'll be back.View Image
All righty.... feeling much better. A pound of teriyaki steak tips'll do that for me. Man I love grilling!
So.... in the past couple days we set the ridge and commons for the family room. Cathedral room.... 22' from subfloor to ridge. We sheathed it and will frame the three dormers on the ground and set them at a later time.
Then we started framing in the ridge over the master bath and master office area. This is the roof with the girder truss I built a few days ago. We were waiting on the Meg 5 connector. This girder holds up one end of a 26' long triple 16" LVL ridge. All the bolts are 10" x 3/4" hex heads.
View ImageView Image
Ok... so once that was up, set, and out of the way, we threw up some pipe staging and pics and set the ridge....
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Edited 5/28/2008 9:06 pm ET by dieselpig
Here it is all bolted together... and a pic with some commons and dormer framing filled in....View Image
And some shots of the family room. That'll be a stone fireplace running all the way up. This room also gets two decorative arches. One each between the french doors... 'sitting' on 1/2 pillars and arching as high up as possible without running into the framing. Should be gorgeous all finished out. As I said earlier... the three holes will be dormers.View Image
Heavy hanger! we used one like that once. Didn't recognize the #.
Man , them picts make me want to go back to work soooo bad. My favorite time of the year.
Looking good!
I must've missed the story... how come you're out of work? Hope it wasn't a job related injury or something.View Image
He hurt himself trying to spell "framer". He gave up on the 52nd try. Sorry, couldn't resist.
http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
Edited 5/29/2008 7:32 pm ET by seeyou
Comedian?
Comedian?
No. But that doesn't stop me from trying. As I said, sorry, couldn't resist. Don't take it personally. Hope it all works out for you.http://grantlogan.net/
But you all knew that. I detailed it extensively in my blog.
I don't know if it's the day I had or what... but that just busted me up.View Image
Car accident on the way to work 2 yrs ago, 3 operatiions ago, lots of money ago.
Been told I have to find something else to do eventually, I hope I can do it anyways, with some limits.
Oh.... awful sorry to hear that dude. That blows. I hope you can get back to it sometime soon because it sounds like you really enjoy the work. You can come play with us if you'd like. ;)View Image
Love to, but I wouldn't survive the drive.
I know you are on the North shore, anywhere neer Salem?
My wife, kids and I liked the resterant on the bridge on us1.
I'm south of Salem.... not really North Shore. I actually live about 40-45 min NW of Boston... more west than north. Most of my work is in the suburbs just west of Boston.... Newton, Needham, Wellesley, Weston, etc..... around rt 95.View Image
nice area!
Yeah it's a pretty good area to be working in. The 'recession' or whatever you want to call it doesn't seem to have effected the folks in that area much yet. Hope it holds out for awhile longer.View Image
Doesn't sound like there will be a recession, just a slowdown, so you are probably safe.
My boss has been framing apt. for the last 1.5 years, with a few houses here and there. 2 years ago we frame over 199 houses and no apt.
It is what it is!
Very interesting. It looks like a great frame and from here, everything looks perfect.I like that girder with the beam assembled. I've never had to build one like that. Ours would have been built at the truss plant. Is that girder assembly going to be exposed? How will it be covered? Will that hefty hanger interfere with the covering? I noticed in the main room that your rafters butt into a ledger and hang from hangers. Why didn't they design that to sit on the wall rather than hang it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
The truss gets totally buried Blue. On the inside (the side in the pics with the hanger), the lower chord is the CJ height. It's just a flat 8' ceiling in there. The whole purpose of the truss is simply to avoid a ridge post. (Keep this in mind when I answer your other question). On the other side of the truss (the outside) it's simply a partial gable..... not much more than the rake trim exposed as another 8 pitch roof chases right up behind it... only 14" lower. I'm sure a picture from the outside will clear it right up for you Blue... kinda tough to put into words. I'll try to remember to take one for you soon. So in a nutshell... the whole thing is buried. Nothing showing at all when it's done... as far as the framing goes.
Now... the other room... with the ledgered and hung rafters.... you gotta remember that this is an addition so they had to work with what's there. The short story is that the top plates don't come close to lining up with the existing. That large cathedral room has a floor that's dropped 15" below the existing (and other new parts) and on top of that the plate height is 10' 9" for that room. It all gets buried anyway though so when it's finished it won't look like one wall is taller than the other. There's a large built up crown/trim detail (inside) that goes around the room (like 24" of trim build out) with arches and half pillars and whatnot. So it won't ever show. It's hard to tell in my pics, but there's actually a few different changes in floor height throughout the addition.
This architect is very different Blue. He's really good and is highly respected in the Boston area. Pretty big firm... all residential. But he doesn't let things like framing and structural design get in his way. LOL.... he draws what he wants the house to look like... and then finds a way to make it happen. So he doesn't care if he needs a zillion dollars of LVL's, steel, and 1/2 ton of custom hardware to make it happen... as long as it looks the way he wants it to. Even the plates for the lally columns in the basement had to be custom made by a welder. The architect team and the structural engineer come out once a week to inspect everything from welds to hardware installation, to site fabricated wood structural components.
So with that mindset, what you end up with is lots of strange things..... enormous beams, tons of 6x6 and 4x6 posts, crazy hardware, insane point loads, hidden roof crickets, girder trusses, and generally a boat load of truly custom framing. Stuff that you'll probably never need to build again made with parts you had to make on site. He just doesn't let "hard" "complicated" or "expensive" get in the way.
And that's the stuff that got me on the first job... the one I underbid. It's the stuff you can't see when you look at the drawings. Where you frame something once to make it work structurally and then have to add a whole bunch of over-framing to it to make it look like he wants it to. I don't know if I'm painting a clear picture or not but I'm not sure how else to describe it. You just can't see it all on paper.
He has no problem having a valley funnel three or four or five major roof faces out into an area 18" wide and then having to design a custom system to handle it... with custom oversize copper boxes and downspouts to carry it to the ground and a custom underground drainage system to handle it. This particular house has two 1000gal tanks buried in the side yard for just that reason.
It's kinda crazy... but kinda fun. View Image
The way that architect designs and builds (or has you build) makes me somewhat jealous.Sometimes I wish we could do an addition where it should go instead of 5' away because we don't want to spend the extra $5k to move the septic tanks or because of a point load that will take an additional $2k in steel to remedy. There's something tantalizing about throwing money and LVL plies at a problem.Of course, we have more potential customers than that architect and I can't say that have done anything to pursue that market, but it does sound interesting.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
It's got it's ups and downs though Jon. Picture this.... I was talking to one of the GC's guys who is sort of in charge of the day to day stuff around the site. He told me that so far they'd spent $1800 for pint-sized cans of paint samples. I don't care how much $ you're making..... going back to the paint store that many times has got to make you crazy! And the mason has to keep building all these little sample walls (brick and stone) all over the place until everyone can agree on the material choice!
If you don't find a way to laugh at it all.....you'll cry! :)View Image
"He told me that so far they'd spent $1800 for pint-sized cans of paint samples."That does kind of put it in perspective. 100+ samples (I'm assuming they're no more than $18/pint) is a pretty stout number.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Yup... and watch... the house will get painted white or beige when they're done. :)View Image
Is the architects first name Jan?
Hi Tim,
If you'd like to talk specifics you can email through the site. I'd feel uncomfortable sharing specific information on an open forum such as this.... especially seeing as this is your first post to the forum and I have no idea who you are.View Image
Brian, I'm enjoying the thread, like everybody else.
I'm not a framer, and it's too late in life to become one, but it's nice to see what good quality work looks like. After seeing those pictures, it makes me stop and think about how to do things better, neater, taller, bigger. Looks like fun.
I think between you and Grant, you could just open up a school for frustrated builders and charge for the classes. Can't be any harder than training a crew - right? And you might make some money...
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
LOL... I'm not much of a teacher Don. Now what would it be that builders would be trying to learn from me?
Glad you like the thread though.View Image
Yup... and watch... the house will get painted white or beige when they're done. :)
How can someone NOT be pulling their hair out by now?!jt8
My advice to you is not to inquire why or whither, but just enjoy your ice cream while it's on your plate-- Thornton Wilder
Reading that reminds me of a slate job we did two springs ago, the masons had set up and had all this way cool stone..limestone.
Anyway, the site was a Charlie Foxtrot, mud, trash, cold mud..just a total nightmare..our pumpjacks SUNK 3' overnite in the thawing back fill, we used the ele. slate hoist to extract the alumapole (the foot stayed burried..).
well after the masons had the rock up on the block walls, the "designer" thought the rock was too grey..or too tan...whatever, it didn't match the house ( this was a spa,pool, exercise room for a big horse farm) so they tore it down..and started with new stone.
A week later the designer beeatch comes out and the MORTAR is now wrong color! Too grey or too tan..LMAO.
Dale and I finished the roof, grey, green and purple slate..all mixed up As fast as we could before the "designer" had a chance to even THINK about us pulling it off and patterning or whatever got her boat to float..freaking octagonal building with 8 hips, every slate cut to fit.
The masons walked off..we finished, never heard what the out come was..I know someone was pissed.
Good job yer doing there man..If I was 20 yrs younger, I'd be pestering ya for a job..I really miss the WHAM! of framing.
Whatchoo gonna do when yer done framing? Be an old crotchety bastid on the net,like blue? GD&R
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Edited 5/31/2008 7:08 am ET by Sphere
<pint-sized cans of paint samples>
LOL!
Forrest
I totally understand it and I know the type of Architect that your working with. That's why I thought you were ten grand under again. There aren't many guys that this type of Architect will work with. They wan't knowledgeable guys that don't fight them on every detail. There aren't that many combo carpenters around. In my day, I would have passed on the frame because I wouldn't know that I could pad my bill to cover the details. I'd think I could make more working on semi customs where I had more control over the details. Architects like this will provide you work for a much longer time and in the long run, you are much better off...even if each job drives you nuts. The good thing is that you see the fun in it. That will make you bunches of dollars if you learn to test the waters on the bid process. My fun was streamlining the production process on less intensive framing. I was not versatile in that regard. I probably passed up bidding on stuff like yours 100 times. I knew my limits too regarding my crews. Keep up the great work. This is an excellent example of a quality frame and quality thread. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
LOL.... I can tell you still think I'm underbid on this one too Jim. All I can tell you is that I'd know by now if I was.... there's no surprises left that won't come in the form of a change order. Trust me... if I was losing money (or even got a whiff of it) this thread would be dead. I'd lose interest completely and wouldn't be the least bit excited about it.
But you're right in that I can probably get more money for this type of frame than I am...... eventually. I'm trying to groom a long term relationship here Jim. As you said... not a lot of guys will take these jobs... for a variety of reasons. For whatever reason... it's a good fit for me (as long as they're bid right). The first job I proved that I could do the work and I learned exactly what I was/am up against. The second job is confirming all of that and trust is being built on both sides of the ball. I'm trying to get them (the GC) to the point where the thought of switching framers is out of the question. I want them to realize that they (the GC) hardly need to come onsite at all. That I've got it under control. That I'm keeping everyone happy (the HO, the architect, the engineer, other subs, etc) and he's got nothing to worry about. I want the architect to be thrilled that I'm following his plans to the letter.... so that he adds pressure to the GC to continue using me. I want to become irreplaceable.
And then I shall RULE THE WORLD!!!! LOL.... anyway... you get the idea. I'm not trying to get laid on the first date here Jim. This one's a keeper. And once the ring's on her finger....without getting greedy.... well then maybe I can dip a little deeper into the cookie jar.
But in the meantime.... I'm not working for peanuts over here either dude.
We're not all that different Blue... you and me. I like the less intensive stuff too. I've always said that if I could build nothing but 2500 sqft colonials for the rest of my life for about $9/ft then I probably would. I can run on autopilot and do those things. I can leave work for the day and entirely forget about the job. It's almost like being a regular person!
But things are slowing down in that market. There's just not that many of those 'mid level' houses to do right now. And even fewer condo's and smaller houses. And the ones that are available are being fought over by lowball bidders right now like vultures on a dead carcass. The reason is.... just about anyone can build them.... so they're fighting over them. The market of higher end jobs, like the one I'm currently on, is currently still strong. And as you said... there's less competition. It may not be my first choice in types of jobs.... but it ain't a bad place to be either.View Image
Okay. I admit...you've got a good plan and you are handling the situation with the right attitude and approach. I just don't want you to underestimate the value of someone like yourself...especially in the eyes of an architect like this who undoubtedly has ran the gamut of carpenters. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
There were a couple problems that I ran into with a similar philosophy to what you're thinkin'.....not to say that same would happen to you; sounds like you've got your ducks in a row.But, just for ###s and giggles....
Did a few jobs like yours when I had a crew working for me, and also quite a few when I was working for my "mentor". While they were profitable from the standpoint of...say making three times the normal square foot price that guys were getting.( no, I don't price based on sq ft. but everybody looks at the bottom line and divides it out.) Or 5 times, or fill in the blank, it seemed like they took 6 times the time for the same footage. Suddenly I'd find that the 5000 square foot house that I was getting 65k to frame and side, was taking the time that I'd do 5 straitforward colonials that I would have done for 20k each. It also means that for that period of time, I wasn't available to other customers that I framed for. Not good. It looks like you guys are kickin ## time wise, but it's the elapsed time that gets ya; it's not crazy busy now like it was a few years ago. If this was 2005 would you be willing to be married to this thing for the full x weeks it'll take?
The other problem that didn't hit me personally, but I sure knew a few guys that it did, is that based on the time element involved with this guys projects, will you have to turn other regulars away? I know there's no crystal ball, but something to consider. As sure as I am that this guy will want you to be his guy, will you end up needing him as much as he needs you? You and I both know that after the second or third time you "just can't get to" a frame for gc yz ,It'll be " I don't call Brian for frames anymore he's always tied up with archy snoots work.
Just a couple thoughts to toss your way...I'm sure it's stuff you've already given thought to...I totally understand wanting to do jobs like that...It's what you're in it for. The number of times my old boss would look around some big vaulted, barrel arched, crazy trimmed archy wet dream, and say "well, it sure will be a feather in your cap" Can't buy a new truck with feathers.:)
Great looking work.
Bing
Good post Bing and much of it is true... but go back and read my last post to Blue again. The market around here is not exactly dripping with 'run of the mill' colonials right now. And the ones that are out there are getting framed for peanuts because there's 10 different crews willing, able, and available to frame it. 2005 is over.
Two or three years ago I was thinking the same as your post. Shoot, even last year I was. But jobs aren't as plentiful right now and pricing on the run of the mill stuff is down. This higher end market is holding though.
So you roll with the punches. Improvise, adapt, overcome.
And for what it's worth... these 'architects wet dream' that you call them... do nothing what so ever for my ego. At the end of the day I'm in this to make money. I'll frame $7/ft vinyl boxes for the rest of my life if I can make good money doing it and keep a full schedule.View Image
I heard that makin money is what it's all about!
It's ain't romantic, but it's the truth Mike.
That's not to say I don't enjoy building a complicated frame or beautiful design. I really do. But this ain't a hobby and I don't need the practice. If it's not profitable, I don't want to do it. Some might say... "oh but don't you like the challenge?".
I dunno... maybe I view challenges differently from most people. But a difficult frame isn't a legitimate challenge to me. It's just a lot of work... both physical and mental. A challenge is only a challenge if there's a chance that you'll fail. And I'd never take on a frame that I thought I couldn't actually complete for one reason or another. I can't think of anything more unprofessional than taking on work where you may not be unable to do justice to the design.
If this were a hobby, or even my own house, I might view some complicated framing as a challenge or something worth completing for the sense of accomplishment alone. But I'd never get romantic enough take a paying job for a 'reward' of anything less than monetary compensation. (at least not knowingly!) It would just be irresponsible to my business at this stage of the game. Maybe if I hit the lottery someday I'll take on "challenging" frames for bragging rights or simply the experience of it all. But that day isn't today.
I'm lucky in that I enjoy my job. And I do get a kick out of it. But it's still my job. The goal is to get paid. And the more the better. I've got other interests in life... while it's nice to be entertained by my work.... it isn't a necessity. Gettin' paid is though.
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Enjoying this thread Brian. A fan of the way you tell it.
I have helped build some decent homes but can't tell it the way you do.
And Blue always has the tough questions and remarks that make us think about it.
thanks Dallas
Yep, Blue's a thinking man's framer. Sometimes his questions frustrate me... but only cuz they make me question myself. In the long run, that's a good thing. And we probably all benefit from it. His experience is obvious and undeniable if you've ever framed before and spent some time thinking about how and why we do what we do.
Glad you like the thread.View Image
Might be a regional thing but I think I frame more like Blue than others.
I don't frame any more and only miss it on the fair weather days.
If I've read this post right...I think I know what your "challenge" is. Making money as a framing contractor LOL! Anyone can build a mansion. Very few can make a business out of it, especially if they are running a one man crew (see above).I once had a contractor explain that it was easier to co-ordinate five crews. He explained that if you had five crews of five men, you'd typically have three or more builders that you are servicing. If one builder ran out of basements, it wouldn't cause a crisis. Instead of laying off the five guys, you'd simply split them up and send one of them to the other crews that are working. When you think about that arrangement, it certainly makes sense. I don't think I ever found five builders that I was willing to work for! Or, when times were good, I could find the builders, but couldn't find the men! It's a conundrum for sure! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Great pictures man, really throwing fuel on my fire to get out and start making sawdust. Glad you followed all the way through this one, as always your results are top notch.
Woods favorite carpenter
Also started framing the three family room dormers today while two guys started sheathing the roof and two others finished up some odd ball roof framing pieces and a false chimney.
Don't be alarmed by the bare bones look of the dormers. They get covered in trim later. I'm not even going to try to describe the trim package... if you're really curious you can check out my photo thread titled "Hey Tim Uhler".... there's a dormer on the right front of the house in that thread with an identical trim package. I just throw the upper rake trim on (tacked) so that the roofer can line up his drip edge. Then it will have to be pulled off again as the trim starts with the windows and works outwards and upwards from there. We'll set the dormers with the forklift... probably tomorrow if I finish the other two in time. I cut all the parts today for all three dormers and built all the walls... so I really just need to put the other two together.
I'm not sure if my layout will show up in the pics.... it's snapped out in red chalk on fir ply so it may not. But that plywood with the 2X "L" around it is my sidewall jig. This way I don't have to lay the six sidewalls out when I build them...View Image
Yeah, I know you say you're only in it for the money, but you've got to be enjoying this one.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Oh, no doubt Grant! I really do love framing.... it's the business of framing that I don't care for much. If I were rich, I'd probably still take on frames. Then it'd be even more fun because the pressure would be off. I could choose jobs that really interest me and not have to sweat the business end of things. Now that'd be nice. I could just frame until the money's gone! LOL....
Seriously though... what I meant earlier is that bottom line is..... well.... the bottom line. I like making money cuz I need the money. How's that for a pair of Yogi's?View Image
"I really do love framing.... it's the business of framing that I don't care for much."Oh, oh...I started using that line back in late eighties! Excellent roof framing shots. That's a lot of roof for that little frame isn't it? I'll be interested to see the dormer cornice. It looks hard. I can honestly say I'm glad I'm not out there humping those rafters into place. I must be getting old. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You get great pics off that forklift.
Thanks for letting us look.
"Never pick a fight with an old man. If he can't beat you he will just kill you." Steinbeck
How could you tell? :) I actually took those off of a 40' articulated all terrain boom lift that I rented for a week. I didn't like it and ended up sending it back though. Should have tried a straight 60 instead. Maybe this upcoming house.View Image
What didn't you like about the articulated lift?Straight booms are great for some things, but they can be like using a telehandler to do excavation for others. A 60' boom can get you pretty far out, but sometimes you need all that boom length and more if you have to get at a dormer or chimney with a lower roof or dormer in the way.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
The main thing I didn't like was that it didn't boom far enough out like I'd hoped it would. The boom only actually extended 10 or 12 feet. It would go up 40.....but not out very far. So you really had to have the machine parked almost underneath you at all times. Which simply wasn't possible in many of the situations I had planned on using it.... mostly framing and trimming built out rakes on the existing gable ends.View Image
So are you saying that you could not boom out all 40' of boom at a 45° angle?I can see why that would be a problem. I thought that all the articulating lifts I've used have been able to do everything that a straight boom could, albeit it make take longer to get the machine set up like that.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I thought that all the articulating lifts I've used have been able to do everything that a straight boom could,
Nah. I've got a 40' articulating boom and you can only get the basket 22' from center no matter how high. With a 40' stick you can get 40' away from center 6" off the ground, but that reach decreases as you go up.
No one machine is perfect for all situations. I like the 40' articulater since I can usually get pretty close and it's not as heavy as a stick boom so I don't tear up stuff as much with it. With a stick boom you have to get back from the work a little. I can see why Brian would be less comfortable with an articulater since he's used to working with a telehandler.
One of my competitors has a stick boom and we trade sometimes. http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
All righty Blue.... time for another photo update. Been busy cutting rafters. I took some shots from the air today for you guys. This is bastard valley heaven out here... a pair of 4/12 to 8/12, an 8/12 to 12/12, a 5/12 to 8/12 and a couple of layovers. If you look close... you can see the truss buried in there.... look to the right... it's now part of a half gable. You'll see one of the valleys break on it and then pick up again on the other side of the truss.
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It looks like the lay-on rafters are just cut and nailed to the existing roof. You guys don't have to put any kind of sleeper up there?
We will get dinged if we don't provide full bearing (but it has to be 2x, not just full bearing on roof sheathing) with a lay-on, but it can get pretty crazy when you building a 4/12 shed roof on a 6/12 main roof. It's not uncommon to have a 40" long cut.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Ours have to be full bearing too Jon (and they are). Look close and you can see there's a secondary seat cut up there at the heel of that long layover cut. That cut fits a 2x10 sleeper that's spiked to the existing rafters. This provides good nailing and a place to install a Simpson tie down. Having the new rafters stacked over the existing rafters satisfies the 'full bearing' part. The 2x10 ledger stops at that last common in the pic.... because it's the last common, that's where the layover valley starts to tie that 5 pitch into the perpendicular 8 pitch roof. The guys are pulling the tarp so they can frame that valley.
(Edited for clarity....after coffee!)
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Edited 6/6/2008 5:29 am ET by dieselpig
Edited 6/6/2008 6:00 am ET by dieselpig
I see the seat cut now.I will have to keep your rafter stacking technique in mind. It seems simple and I don't know why they would not allow it, but to be honest, I've never once thought of it.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I understand the need to lay each rafter over the underlying rafter. That would be the "full bearing". I don't understand the purpose of the let in 2x10. I understand the desire to tie the rafters to the lower rafters with some form of uplift. My personal choice would be to install some vertical collar ties. I'd probably open the roof to the short point of the upper cut and install a 2x4 block vertically and that would prevent the uplift. I don't know if that would pass in any location. I know it passes in my mind. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
On second thought....someone would have to profide me with a compelling reason to make those long cuts on the upper rafters. I'd most likely open a small roof hole, about 2' wide and slip the new raters along side each existing rafter and nail them securely. This would be a "lap" style connection and we have done them all the time in new work when blending rafters into trusses. Three or four spikes would certainly hold up a 2x6 rafter. The loading wouldn't change on each existing rafter and the lap style would provide the necessary uplift restriction.My main focus would be to eliminate the long tapered cut and use the stock end of the raw lumber. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
""Three or four spikes would certainly hold up a 2x6 rafter."" Those rafter appear to be about 16' long, and 16" o.c. So the load area is 8'x16"x say 40lbs/ft.
426 lbs per rafter. Fair sized load for some spikes into old rafters.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Then put a few more in.Also, it would be fairly easy to add some form of ledger under the new rafters that would directly transfer the load. In theory, you could reduce the carrying capacity of the nails to zero and all their holding power would be for uplift. In MI, we would call these ledgers "snowbraces". I'd probably bevel one edge of a 2x6 and tuck it up tight after the rafters were all nailed. I don't know that this would pass for every application in every locality. Each area seems to have significant engineering differences. I'm in TX now and can't even speak for this area. I do know that it would have passed back in MI where I did my framing.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Blue..... not for nothing.... but I'm suspecting that you're just bored and being argumentative?
You obviously don't like the idea of having to make that long head cut. I'm not really sure why.... it's not very hard at all. So in it's place you're advocating that it would have been easier to tear off the existing roof sheathing, nail the rafters to the side of the existing rafters (which would probably involve a string line keep them true), add some blocking to every rafter to resist uplift, and rip a beveled 2x6 ledger the length of the roof to take the load back off the nails and put it back onto the rafters. And then you'd willingly and knowingly assume the risk of it failing an inspection.
Cuz that's easier? Am I missing something here?View Image
Argumentative is not the word I would use. In fact, since you see it that way, I will refrain from any further comment. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Awww c'mon Jim.... don't take your ball and go home. It was just my observation man... that's all. Are you really above ever being argumentative? Is it really so much of a stretch to suggest that? I know I am guilty sometimes, and I highly doubt you or anyone else here is innocent all the time as well. Get off the cross brother.... we need the wood! :)
Seriously.... it was just how it looked to me. I really didn't mean to offend you. I sincerely apologize if I did.View Image
come on Blue, a good arguement on a friday afternoon is a perfect way to end the week!<G>
Blue says you're an Ahole.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
LOL.... man.... must be Friday or something. I give up trying to figure this place out.View Image
I don't think you need to apologize. I just don't want to go into a thread of yours and talk about the different approaches if it appears to be argumentitive. I learned my lesson when Joe got insulted when I tried to explain something and used one of his pictures. I think perhaps you might have saw the exchange between Dovetail and me and saw it as argumentitive. Don't fret about that. He's been dogging me for a couple years and I'm always up to the challenge. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Hi Jim,
No worries. I appreciate your feedback, and everyone else's for that matter. That's why I post these photo threads. I do realize that in doing so, I'm opening up myself to some criticism and Monday morning quarterbacking, but it comes with the territory and, for the most part, everyone is pretty supportive. I just thought the last exchange seemed a little out of character.... like you were stretching to find a way to disagree with our methods. Sorry if I read into that too much. I do that sometimes.
I hope you continue to offer your ideas in my threads. I think it's our exchanges that have kept this thread alive and interesting. It's no fun posting pictures if nobody is looking at them, thinking about them, and/or discussing them.
I'm going to pull the plans out of the truck today and take some pics of some of the details.... especially the trim package on those dormers. I think they'll help explain the dormers better than I could. We got rained out yesterday which was kind of a drag. It wasn't that bad out really..... but after two 11 hr days of working in the rain we were all sick of it. The guys still had well over 40 hrs in so I left it up to them. Since I seem to be the only one who didn't stay up until midnight watching the NBA finals (Go Green!) I was in the minority for wanting to work. I shoulda stayed and worked myself.... but I was weak! ;)
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Yeah - well Blue says you have to hit a 16d five times to sink it.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
I'm smart enough to leave that bait dangling...even if I am stupid. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I'm fine with continuing as long as the discussion is continued in the proper spirit. Now..getting back to the real discussion...Your point about having to strip so much roof to avoid the long tapered cuts is the clincher. When I envisioned creating a small hole to slide the rafters along side, I mentally thought of a 12" hole or so. The reality is that I would need to create the same size hole as the tapered cut, which would most likely balance out the time factor between the two ideas. My first idea would lose out because there would be significant time needed to clean up the mess from the additionally stripped roofing materials. Remember, we base our ideas and techniques on our real world experiences. I've only worked on a few board roofs and therefore all my thinking was geared toward a plywood roof, or an open new work construction. In the context of that environment, especially in new work, I would take the bet and easily be able to justify my method. If I was having a conversation with the architect, my main question/suggestion would be with the 2x12 laid flat. I'd see that as a wasted opportunity and I'd ask him if he would allow me to stand it upright to orient it in a way that added strength and rigidity to the roof. I would be open to his explanation and be glad to learn what forces it was dealing with if he intentionally wanted it laid that way for some reason. I just can't understand it's significance without seeing the entire structure but there may be a very good reason. I don't like the uplift idea because the nails are all in withdrawl. I'd much rather cut a slot next to every pair of rafters and send a simpson fastener of some kind to tie the new roof to the old....if the idea of collar tie blocks seems like too much work. I hope you don't see this as being argumentitive. Like Dr House, I constantly bounced ideas back and forth amongst all the guys I worked with. I believe that I benefited from the collective widsom of my entire group even though I was thought of as the most experienced. Quite often, a young naive carpenter would ask a simple question that re-arranged my thinking in profound ways. I'm interested in the discussion, not winning the discussion. There is no winning because each of us has different goals, wants and needs. In your case, you need to deliver a very specific set of services to the Architect. The need to precisely follow the Architects directive trumps everything. That is reflected in the higher price given to them in the beginning. I understand that you can't rearrange the details to serve your own time interests in this setting and quite frankly, there really isn't much time differential in anything I'm discussing. But...if I thought I could save five seconds, while adding additional strength for the same amount of materials....I'd feel like a million bucks...even if the Archy said no. Thats just how I'm wired. I'm a time study freak with the goal toward improving every part in a house. Yes, it made me nutty sometimes and other times it gave me joy. Now...why did you have to strip the roof boards on the bottom half of that roof? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ok... finally got a minute to answer that question of yours. Busy weekend!
The only boards we stripped were the first few courses around where we installed the LVL to carry the existing roof. We stripped a couple courses past where the LVL was to be installed to make enough room to run a saw up and make the cuts.
Over towards the middle of the roof (where I think you were looking) there wasn't any roof decking. When we started, there was a lay-on hip roof in that location. It was an interesting roof frame to start with. It looks as though maybe there was a fire shortly after the house was built (some of the rafters looked scorched) and when rebuilding, they bumped out that portion of the house and added the lay-on hip. Other than that short section (with tails) on the left, the rest of the main roof was carried by a steel beam that ran across the house (in the ceiling) spanning about 30' or so. We took that out and replaced it with the 32'ish triple 16" LVL that can be seen in the second pic I'll attach. You can't see the whole thing... just the left end of it under the boom of the forklift... it runs most of the way through that lay-on hip roof we're tearing off.
Hope you had a great weekend!
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Oh.... and I never did get around to taking pictures of the plans for you.... the dormer trim in particular. Maybe I'll do it tomorrow on site when I have both the plans and the camera out.View Image
Brian,
I have to tell you that I admire and respect you and the way you frame. Alot of Framers around here who frame new homes don't have the patience and want to spend the time to work on existing houses and get the job done right. It's a big transition go from just new work and tying into existing work.
What your doing is exactly what I do and enjoy doing when I'm cutting into and existing house or just framing over and existing house. It might sound crazy but, sometimes if there's a problem with the existing house not being level,square or up and down like a snake in a situation where you're sitting those rafters on top making those long cuts, it's like I'm talking to the house and getting to know the house and saying" what am I going to do with you to make my new framing level and square and still try to make the existing look good".
After taking some extra time and stringing lines and making some adjustments it works out right. We have no control when ting into a house, we have to make the best of the new framing work and make it look good in the end.
Right now I'm working on a house that's about 90 years old and the house is gutted and the first floor joists are all trees and the first floor is up and down like a snake. We had to remove all the trees and install new floor joists, decking and rip the first floor walls out, second floor floor joist and walls out and third floor floor joists out and install all new.
It took me all of this week to just do the first floor. Every wall was bowed in and out like a snake. Mudsills had to be replaced. There is alot of time figuring out how to hold the house up and prep for all the work I have to do. Nothing like new framing. In the end result I can't get the house perfect, but I will pack out walls stringing lines and getting them straight for cabinets and what not and try to do my best.
All in all, man you do great work and keep posting.Joe Carola
They coudn't just tear it down and start over?
I do enjoy it Joe, but I also know that by the time I'm done with this thing a new frame will look pretty tasty too! I think my next two jobs are 5000-6000 sqft new frames... one of them is a model I did last summer.
I have the hardest time bidding these big remodel/additions Joe. I don't know how you do it all the time. It takes me forever to price these things. And I have to be super careful to really stop and think about the time involved if I've only been doing new houses prior to it. It's a whole new world. It takes the guys a few days to shift gears as well. They always seem to pop right into high speed when it's a new work job... but it takes them time to slow down and think when we're on one of these. Same probably goes for myself now that I think about it. Progress can seem frustratingly slow at times. I kinda have to coach myself through them... reminding myself that I've still got "X" weeks to finish and I don't need to panic or that it's actually supposed to take this long!
Should look nice when it's finished though.View Image
I always found it difficult to shift from new work to remodeling type work too...even if we were "only" framing. The crew tends to bash things apart instead of surgically removing them at the key critical points. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
snork.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I learned my lesson when Joe got insulted when I tried to explain something and used one of his pictures.
Jim,
If you remember correctly, I wasn't insulted that you used my picture. You tried to use my picture to point out a mistake in the framing with the direction of the floor joists and and I pointed out to you that you were wrong because you didn't notice which way the decking was running.
I just didn't like the fact that you tried to use my drawing and point out a mistake when there wasn't one. You went back and looked at the pictire and realized you made a mistake. No biggy!Joe Carola
DP was talking 'bout your mama.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
come on what did he say?
Wow! It's like yer an arms dealer for both sides!
Forrest - ducking
It's like yer an arms dealer for both sides!
I learned from Mike Smith.
Grant - parrotinghttp://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Your sign-offs are much more interesting now!
Forrest - my work here is done
Your sign-offs are much more interesting now!
I used to be much more interesting. In fact, I invented interesting.
But then I lost interest in being interesting and inventing "####".
Forrest - my work here is done
Grant - no it isn't.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
DP was talking 'bout your mama.
You're losing your touch. They've already kissed and made up.
;)
jt8
"If we don't put effort into creating what we want, we must then put effort into coping with what we have." --EPNIA
Not sure if anyone's still watching...... but I said I'd follow through to the end with pics on this frame so I'll play along.
This was our sixth work week on this frame. It's starting to feel like I've been here forever! We're still on schedule and budget so there's nothing to sweat... it just seems like we've been here much long than six weeks. Monday and Tuesday were incredibly hot for this time of year. We hit 100 degrees on Tuesday and the humidity was brutal. We did 10.5 hours on Monday and 11 hours on Tuesday... and paid for it on Wednesday.
I finished framing the dormers on Monday and did a few other knicknacks. We set them on Tuesday. Two guys also started framing in some ceilings, strapping them, and started partition walls today. Two of my other guys started building out the rakes on the existing house and running soffit and fascia. The flat roof deck over the bow window bay (breakfast room) also got framed..... double LVLs spanning 12'6 tapered from 11 3/4" to 9 3/4".
We're just grinding it out now out here. Tuesday's big Pow Wow brought quite a few change orders... nothing major just a bunch of skylights added and moving some partition walls around.
Didn't take a whole lot of pics this week.... just grabbed a few of the things I was putting together. I'll get some more pics of the outside as the trim goes up.
Setting the dormers.....
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If it counts...I'm still watching. Intently so! - T
Couple from the inside.....
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Thanks,
been waiting for more. Are those turnbuckles a permanent fixture of the place?
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yep. The engineer says the "tension rods" are necessary to help resist blowing that dormer wall out. Guess the triple 16" LVL ridge wasn't enough or something. They will, however, be virtually invisible when the room is finished. There will be two large decorative arches in the room which will 'bury' them.View Image
Thanks. I know that these jobs can be a total burn out, but your young and they are of the $ amount that the people who pay to have them done are in the group that always have money. Breathe deep , relax, stick with them if you can.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Yeah I'm hanging in there. It's still fun.... just feels like Ground Hog Day sometimes. Making money and steady work.... not a lot to really complain about. It just feels strange to be on a job for this long.View Image
The only thing about big jobs like this is you wind up missing some smaller jobs. But, in this economy, the big jobs are the one's that keep popping up. I've said this before, but the high end archy's are your buddies right now. And they know each other and talk amongst themselves.
Rock on.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
I also started framing the cupola which will go over the garage. The 'window blanks' will get filled by unoperable 'louvered vents'. The lower trim band gets a 2x3 sill which is continuous all around. Below that trim band will be a flared skirt that carries down the roof a bit and will be cedar shingled.
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nice! Thanks Brian.
Sure!View Image
Nice Cupes! I'm looking around...I see strapped ceilings. Now my eagle (evil) eye sees some wasted cripples over that header way back yonder! What is the purpose of the extra top cripple on each end? Are they for backing of some sort? Are those floor joist doubled? It actually looks like a fun job and a money maker too. Its the small jobs that kill the cash flow. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Good eye Jim. I've tried for years to get my guys to understand that they don't need to chase the jack studs up over the headers... it just doesn't sink in. It's one of those things I just kinda gave up on. Thing is.... they do it the right way on interior non-bearing partitions! LOL... something about a solid header makes them throw that extra cripple in on me. Somethings aren't worth arguing about.
And yes in the span behind the dormers that you're looking at, the joists are all doubled 9 1/2" I-joists. That was done to give them the ceiling height they wanted... and keep the floor above an even 15" above the existing.... two steps.
The job is pretty fun overall. Like any... it has it's good days and bad days. I'm not really 'bored' yet.... which is a good thing. Because when I'm disinterested in a job I lose focus and productivity can drop. Lotsa different interesting little things to do on this one. Something new almost every day. Today I just started laying out the portico. It's a super low slope hipped roof with a complicated trim package and built in gutters. The "how am I gonna build this thing" has been rolling around in my head all night and probably will be all weekend. That's a good thing...by Monday I should be able to just start knocking it together because I will have already built it in my head six times this weekend. Lotta thinking on this job.... the way the architect draws some of the details makes you work out the framing by working from the trim back into the framing. He doesn't tell you so much 'how to build it'.... but exactly what he wants it to look like. At least on the non structural details anyway.
It's the jobs that are long and repetitive that I get bored on..... condos and developments and stuff. If I stay focused on them though, they can be good money gigs so that's usually enough motivation to hold my attention.View Image
I'm also enjoying your frame.
Thanks for taking the time...buic
LOL, I know what you mean about getting guys to change some of their basic habits. Try using the "higher power" method. Explain that this builder/architect/owner or whoever, has specifically asked that you look for ways to eliminate thermal bridging. You get to play the good guy in this good guy, bad guy routine as in "Sorry Ron, you're going to have to remove that extra cripple...I've promised the archy that there won't be any needless parts installed on the exterior that would reduce the R factor...we both know it doesn't really matter but he's paying the bill."That would be my nice way of saying it because I'm 55 and read "How To Win Friends and Influence People." In my day, I'd just tell him to remove it and to stop wasting the lumber and time LOL! If the guy was a thinker, I'd ask him to explain the engineering behind his decision. Usually, that worked for most of the guys I kept around. It was the hardheaded guys that would need the "remove it or hit the road" talk. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So I spent the last two days in the garage building the portico roof. Now that I'm about done with it.... all I can really say is that it was an awful lot of work for what amounts to a flat roof with some crown around it.
I thought about it and thought about it.... and the pics will show what I came up with. I'd be curious to hear how some of you may have gone about this. I chose to use 2x12's for the CJ's so that I could cut the hidden gutter trough right into them like rafter tails. It seemed to be the most straight forward way. After making the cuts there's wasn't much meat left in the 2x so I used plywood gussets to strengthen the tails. Seeing as it's a hip I had to carry this detail across the front of the roof too. Here I just laminated layers of 3/4 plys to make the gutter trough.
The gutter will be bent onsite (copper). It will start 4" up the slope of the roof, line the trough, and come back up and be a drip edge over the crown to cover the sheathing. (You'll see that part in the upcoming pictures).
I added lots of blocking to stiffen this thing up. That part worked out nicely.
The guys were convinced that I was trying to build a pool table in the garage.
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Next I threw a skin of 1/2" ply with lots of glue over the joist framing. This was just to give me a base to frame the sleeper hip roof and to stiffen this thing up some. I think it was worth the effort. It held everything nice and square for me and will help the structure while we're setting it with the forklift.
After that I framed a low-slope sleeper roof on the sheathing. 4 1/4" rise over about 55" or so.
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Then I sheathed the roof, ran the soffit, fascia, and crown, and then added the last rip of ply to the top of the crown for the copper.View Image
And here's just some updated shots as I walked around outside. We're getting there.
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As always, nice work Brian. Did you have specs on the gutter or were you winging it? The reason I ask, is the gutter is way deeper than it needs to be for that small of a roof. If it weren't so deep, you could have gotten away without all the gussetting. I can't tell if you built a slope into the lookouts. Also, I would refuse to line it without a bottom, back and slant board backing the metal up. Maybe that's coming later.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Just following the specs Grant. You would refuse to line it because the gutter isn't backed up continuously? (I'm guessing).
EDIT: Maybe since the gutter is deeper than it needs to be, I could build a liner out of 1/2 ply and drop it in with some glue? Would that make it a better job? Maybe I'll run that by the powers that be if you think it'd be a good idea.
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Edited 6/17/2008 8:15 pm ET by dieselpig
You would refuse to line it because the gutter isn't backed up continuously?
Yessir. There's plenty of room for a "gutter box". Wasn't critisizing - I figured you were on top of the spec's.
Before the job's finished, the painter climbs up there and steps between your lookouts and suddenly there's ruined copper work. The metal is a built in gutter liner, implying that there's a built in gutter structure to support it, IMHO.
edit: Good carpentry makes us metal cats look a lot cooler than we are.
http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Edited 6/17/2008 8:29 pm ET by seeyou
Grant, right now the bottom 'flat' of my gutter trough is 2.5" wide. If I were to line it with 1/2" ply I'd be down to a little under 1.5"..... would they still be able to make a downspout work? How small can they be had? I suppose if necessary, I could always block between each bay.....but man.... that'd suck!View Image
would they still be able to make a downspout work?
Yessir. Some built in gutters are "V" bottomed - no horizontal surface. We use a hole saw with a long bit to cut the outlets. As long as part of the circle is into the horizontal plane (ie, the bottom) the water will exit. We often have to cut outlets half in the bottom and half in the sloped front. The important thing is to have the outlet exiting thru the soffit in visually pleasing (the center) area.
Ask for a pow wow with the metal guy. He'll make your life easier and vice versa.
Gotta get out of the office now, so I can go watch the Celt's make Kobe their bitch.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Thanks for your help Grant. I'm going to push for a liner. Go Green!View Image
I'm a celtic fan in the land of Knick fans, I keep a low profile! About time to win again!
Nice framing by the way, kind of an odd looking pool table.
It's going to be awful tough lining that gutter though, yikes!
I'm a celtic fan in the land of Knick fans
Hell, I'd rub that in a little. Nobody was gonna stop them last night.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
That was for sure!
Copper guy came by today.... said it looks great. I asked him about the liner and he said he'd prefer it but didn't seem to act like it was a big deal. Anywho.... I gotta find out if I'll get paid for the liner or not.... if so then I'll throw it in. Shouldn't take but an hour or so.View Image
I asked him about the liner and he said he'd prefer it but didn't seem to act like it was a big deal.
I tend to build for the long haul, so a little extra carpentry that might double the life of something seems like a bargain to me. But if you don't get paid for it and he doesn't care, I wouldn't bother.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
I'm with ya bro.View Image
So we finally finished up our end of the deal on this job. Almost 8 weeks out here and happy to be starting a new frame Tuesday morning. With C/O's and extras we finished up right where I expected/wanted to be money-wise.... which is a relief.
Structural engineer did his final framing inspection yesterday and had us add one additional king stud to a doorway. I couldn't be any happier about how that went considering the amount of engineering and hardware that went into this place.
Here's some pics of the master bedroom ceiling. It's kind of a funky little barrel vault thing. Then they added a skylight to it to further complicate things. :)
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Some final (for me) outside shots.....View Image
And some shots of the interesting drip edge. They had it all bent up for them.... it's all roof pitch specific. On top of the fascia we installed a beveled 1X.... it's beveled to the roof pitch on the top edge, leaves 1.5" 'showing' flat, and cuts back up the with a bevel at the bottom (also the roof pitch). The drip edge starts about 5" up the roof, comes down the face of this 1X, and then cuts back up that bottom bevel. That bottom bevel creates the actual drip and helps to achieve the GC's goal of avoiding ice/water making it back up under the drip edge in an ice dam situation..... this architect is famous for designing some really bad ice/water issues into his roofs by cramming so much detail into not enough space.
I don't know how well the pics will come out.... I think 409 is the best of the bunch. It was dark and drizzly and the truck was already running!View Image
Yeah, I can't really make out the detail.http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
Bummer... thought it might interest you. I'll probably take some more pics when the place is finished. Maybe I'll get one for you then.View Image
Yeah - I'm interested for sure. I'll try blowing one up and see if I can pick out what they've done.http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
Nice!
How is the facia on the dormers done?
It's very similar to the cupola detail except it can't be done until after the windows are installed. The 'fascia' isn't really a fascia at all.... it's a built out frieze really... with flat stock and crown that are built out right to that roof's edge.... making it look like a fascia.... and I guess it really is.... it's just not built the way you'd 'normally' do it. Clear as mud, right?View Image
no I understand. Do you install the windows and doors?
Normally yes, on this job no. The exterior trim package (which I bid, got, and then turned down) includes the siding, the trim, and the window/door installation. Ordinarily, the exterior trim and window/doors are part of my frame. But it was extensive enough on this job that the builder wanted it considered a seperate job.
So the line had to get drawn somewhere in regards to the scope of work. The GC and I decided that it made more sense to group the windows and doors in with the exterior trim since they're so intertwined. The clapboards are pretty much an afterthought since there's really not going to be that much to do by the time all the trim goes on and the gables get bricked.View Image
No gutters?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Main roof(s) get gutters, dormers don't. Is that what you were asking?View Image
As far as I can envision the drip edge you described, it doesn't sound conducive to gutters.On the main roof, are the gutters just installed below the lowest point of the drip edge?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
On the main roof, are the gutters just installed below the lowest point of the drip edge?
Yup, just as you normally would. Maybe I can clarify.... in a 'normal' install the drip edge would just hook onto this square edged 1x, right? In this situation, the drip edge encases or wraps that 1x. The 1x is back beveled (instead of being square) to create the drip point. So no portion (even the bottom beveled edge) is exposed... it's all part of the copper drip edge. Having the copper wrap back up that bottom beveled edge makes it near impossible for a gutter to become clogged, back up, freeze, and send water back up the roof under the drip edge.... which is what's been happening to alot of houses in our area the past few winters. Houses that have never had icicles or damming problems before have been getting them here in MA the past few years. This is what the builder was trying to avoid.
Like I said, I don't know if it'll work or not, but that was his goal. The water could still back up under the shingles, but I believe the roofer is installing the I&W over the drip edge.
Here's a little sketch that can probably to a better job explaining than I can.
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Edited 6/27/2008 1:35 pm ET by dieselpig
I see. Our typical drip edge looks completely different than yours. Now I see what you're (and the archy) trying to accomplish.View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Right! Your 'typical drip edge' is the same as mine. This GC (myself and the architect had nothing to do with it) had his own bent up for this job... different bends for different pitch roofs. I don't know if it'll accomplish what he wants it to or not, but I love how it looks..... with that 2" copper shadow line topping all the fascia. Should look really nice when the copper gutters go on.View Image
That will look nice. Will the cu gutters be half round or ogee?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon, I don't know what style the gutters will be and I don't 'really' know what the total cost of the project will be. I'd guess between 750,000 and 1 mil as the interior finishes are very nice and the landscaping package sounds fantastic from what the site guy was telling me. I'll be sure to get some more pics when it nears completion.View Image
I thought I understood the drip detail, but couldn't quite see what I wanted to in the pics. I'm guessing they're going to use half round from that detail. We're doing something similar right now, but it's a low pitch roof so there's no bevel on the extra 1x2. The half round sets right below the 1x2.http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
Think it'll work?View Image
Think it'll work?
Yeah, I like the concept. The question is: will the surface tension pull the water past the lower bend? I don't think so on that steep of a pitch.
Half rounds are often a problem especially with lower slope roofs. The fascia hangers hold the gutter a good 1/2" proud of the fascia and water can go thru that gap.http://grantlogan.net
"I could have had Miss September...... I couuld have had Miss May. I could have had Miss November, but I waited for December....." ZZ Top.
Also, if you have any idea and can publicly share it, how much do you think that addition is going for? $700k?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Brian,I've seen you post some nice work on this forum, but this has been your best. Not sure you appreciate the quality as you look forward to moving on to the next one. This is real craftsmanship.
Edited 6/27/2008 10:27 pm by mike585
Wow... thank you very much Mike. Sometimes it's hard to see the forest through the trees. I see the flaws more loudly than the rest when I look at the house... but all in all... I'm reasonably proud of that job.
More than the work itself, I'm proud because it came in on budget (my budget) and I could finish it comfortably. I believe having successfully bid, landed, and completed that job will increase my confidence when bidding future large projects. When I first bid it, I was terrified to call the builder and give him my quote. I half-hoped he wouldn't call me back! But I did it, and got my price, and good thing..... I came within one day of missing my target. We finished one day earlier than my anticipated completion date. And that's what I think I'm most proud of. In my head, it makes it easier to justify those large bids and not talkmyself out of them before ever giving myself an opportunity to make money. It was a very good experience for me. And I really did enjoy building that house.
Anyway, thank you Mike. It feels good to hear stuff like that.View Image
Excellent job man. You guys must be like a well oiled machine to pump out projects like you've been posting here. You are defiantly someone I look up to. I would enjoy working with a crew like that. It seems like Im always fighting to be efficient with the bozos I work with in this area. 8 weeks! you guys must be efficient
If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you went out on your own, It doesn't seem like your all that old. Also where you located? I lived in Plymouth for a couple of years and loved the eastern shore, worked in Boston, falmouth, brookline newton and that other town next to it that starts with N, Marshfield, easton and a few place in between, most all high dollar projects I loved it. We try to visit once a year but not last year.
I ripped your logo idea, was a Celtic fan from the bird era, when I lived there I went to 6 games when it was the fleet center, one time did a little side job and the lady paid me with 2 of her season tickets -center court 6 rows back from courtside- it was PISSA
Well I blew smoke up your a$$ long enough, Just wanted to say keep it up and I'm a fan bro, the pic posts give me much inspiration.View Image
Love the logo Danno.... and thanks for the kind words. I went out on my own when I was 29 I think.... I just turned 35. Most of our work is in the same places you've worked.... Newton, Wellesley, Weston, Needham, Concord, etc.
Life's short bro.... if you're not on the right crew then change crews! Good crews are out there but you gotta look around.View Image
Great work. I'm definitely a fan of your work, not so much the architect. Does he understand it snows in this area and like last year, sometimes quite a bit? It seems this design are like some others where they really create valley's and other areas that are destine to be problems in the future. Nothing you could do about that, it just seems like architects design in a vacuum and don't build to the environment it's going to live in.I feel bad for the plastering crew, it looks like they are going to be challenged.
I'm actually in agreement with you. He designs some awful water/snow traps. As I said in a much earlier post in this thread..... it appears to me that this architect decides how he wants the house to look... and then never waivers from that no matter the consequence....complexity, cost, warranty issues, buildability, etc.
The roofer was pulling his hair out in some of the spots on that roof. And the builder dislikes having to warranty the roof on some of the designs. But like I said... the architect has total control on these jobs and some things aren't negotiable with him.
The plasterer is actually pretty darn good. I've never met him, but I saw the work he did on that bell curve dormer I did in that other thread. He nailed it. The lines were as crisp as any I've seen. He made me look good. :) I suspect he'll do the same here.View Image
Sounds like the architect has a god complex, those are so rare, lol.With all the ice and water products, copper for the valley's, etc. these people just rely on them too much. I look at those as protection just in case something happens, not something to rely on every time. Plus where the snow and water hang around, you're just going to have moss, algae, etc staining the siding and roof, so the house won't look perfect anyway.Again, great work. They should have given you the trim job too.Have you ever done any work for Vona? I've seen a few of his in Weston. He seems to get the huge houses over there.
I did get the trim job but I turned it down. It would have been work to keep it flowing efficiently with my crew. It could have been done and would have been profitable... but I'm busy enough that I can/did take on another frame instead. Sometimes it's less aggravation to stick to what we do best.... which is framing. It's one thing to do 'some' trim while you're framing... it's a whole 'nother ball game to keep a crew of framers on nothing but trim. Besides, it would have meant being tied to the job of an additional three weeks and I don't want to lose my other contacts for the sake of one job.... know what I mean? Got other GC's to keep happy too.
Never worked for or heard of Vona. But I'd bet he does nice stuff.... Weston is great place to work.View Image
I understand.Vona's the one that is building that place for one of the celtics owners, the back entrance is a little down from Regis College. Bumped into a few of the workers last year, really amazing place. Also is doing the one at the corner of Pine and Highland street in weston. The place by Regis was different then anything I've seen, it was all concrete panels for the walls, and floors, then sleepers and 3/4" ply for the floors, metal studs inside of the concrete for all the walls, 12 or 14' ceilings, massive custom windows from some shop in greenwich, ct far different than any marvin or andersen's I've ever seen. The set of plans I saw were around 300 pages 2'x3' sheets. I think they might be just finished now. I think it was over 2 1/2 years of construction.here's a few links of the regis one, it's the biggest in weston now so it got some publicity that the owner didn't enjoy.http://www.bostonmagazine.com/articles/the_house_that_ate_weston/http://realestalker.blogspot.com/2007/12/pallotta-palace.html
All I can say is...... Wow. Heavy hitters. I wouldn't even know how to bid it. The guy I'm about to start my next frame for did a 17,000 sqft in Newton a couple years ago and hopes to do another soon. I'm really hoping this guy likes me. :)View Image
I'm going to have to sleep on this before I can comment..about the framing. It looks hard and everything you did looks perfect. I'd be concerned too about the lining for the copper. I'm surprised that something wasn't detailed in the specs. I'd do a lot of head scratching myself Brian because I've never built in a gutter like that. I have a job coming up where I'm going to have to do one though and I'll be providing the construction details so this thread is timely. My first gut reaction to Grant's need for some form of lining for the copper would be to install an extruded aluminum gutter or galvanized gutter and just have him line that LOL...but I suspect there might be some bad reaction between the metals. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My first gut reaction to Grant's need for some form of lining for the copper would be to install an extruded aluminum gutter or galvanized gutter and just have him line that LOL...but I suspect there might be some bad reaction between the metals.
Oh come here and let me show you a bad reaction up side your head.
That thinking is just plain wrong on so many levels, but I've seen some fiascos based on similar scenarios. (I used fiascos and scenarios in the same sentance).
The built in gutter is a tried and true concept. The problem with it is that's it's out of sight and if the liner is not maintained, when it leaks it rots the wood that supports and adorns it.
Done right ( a wooden trough lined with copper or stainless steel) it'll outlast an extruded aluminum gutter by several lives. Done wrong and it won't make it thru the winter. But it all starts with the carpentry. If it ain't built right, I can't line it right.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Don't be smacking me upside the head. I'm just trying to learn a little bit about something I know nothing about. So, your copper needs wood lining only? No other material other than wood will work? Does that exclude OSB? Does the wooden trough need a slope built into it? What does "maintain the liner" mean? Is the liner you speak of the wood or the copper? Like I said...I know nothing about these things. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
So, your copper needs wood lining only? No other material other than wood will work?
Does that exclude OSB?
I consider OSB to be a wood product vs solid wood. I prefer solid wood, but I can live with OSB.
Does the wooden trough need a slope built into it?
Yup.
Is the liner you speak of the wood or the copper?
The metal. I prefer copper, but here, many built-in gutters are lined with terne metal which will rust if the paint on it is not maintained. Using copper eliminates that problem. I've seen galvanized used with middling results and aluminum sed with disasterous results.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
Thanks for the tutorial Grant. Expect me back when I get a little bit into the job I'm got lined up with hidden gutters. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Bring it on. I'm probably up to about 5 miles worth of built in gutter liner by now. I've about got it figured out.http://grantlogan.net
Who got Bo Diddley's money?
I have also seen gutters with al., doesn't last!
Frammer52 was asking about how the dormers will finish out.... which reminded me that I promised you pictures of the detail for that. I've attached both the downsized pictures as well as the originals for those that are really curious! Big files though.
The first pic 410 shows the half page of details on the dormer trim... I wanted you to see the elevation drawiing. The second pic 413 is a closer up.... where you can see rake and eave details as they'd be built with dimensions and stock sizes.
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Thanks for taking the time to post all the different sizes. I couldn't see what was going on till I loaded the monster size. I like the details given by the architect. It makes the job go easy if you don't have to re engineer everything. I'm assuming that his dimensioning worked though. What was the reason that you couldn't install the return cornice on those dormers? After looking at the plans, I'm not understanding. Was there some flashing that had to go first before the wood? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
For the most part, the numbers work reasonably well. You still have to check them all though as the coverages of certain pieces of trim aren't always what he specs them as once you have the stock in hand.
The time consuming part is where you often have to work from the trim back to the framing in order to find some of the critical framing numbers... even things like top plate heights of dormers have to be worked from where the intersecting (major or primary) roof hits the front dormers wall... then add the 6" to the sill, then add the rough opening, then add that piled up trim.... and now you have your top plate height. See what I mean?
Without typing 15 pages... here the best job I can do explaining the incomplete cornice work. The gable crown and rake can't be nailed home until the MDO (which is underneath it) is installed. (I believe the MDO is labeled 1x12 on that particular drawing). The MDO can't be installed until you locate the closed gable's crown 'cap'.... which can't be located until after the window is installed into the RO.... as the crown and it's cap rest directly on top of head casing of the window. Additionally, the crown and cap that runs across the window needs to be flashed in white aluminum... and that flashing need to run up behind the MDO....
And you can't run the crown on the sides of the dormer until the cornerboards are built out because the crown wraps around them. And the cornerboards can't be installed until the window is installed because the CB overlaps a peice of trim that needs to butt directly to the side window casing. The roof also has to be on before the cornerboards as well, otherside you'd never be able to flash the dormer's lower corners properly. Which means the crown has to wait.
We all (the GC, myself, and his super) looked at it for a long time trying to figure out how to get the most trim on as possible before we set the dormers. Ultimately we decided to draw the line where we did because we felt it presented the least opportunity for having to tear things apart and there wasn't any way to complete the package before hand any way. So we installed what we needed to keep things rolling.... which is just the trim that the roofer needs to set his drip edge to. As I mentioned earlier, the crown and rake on the gable will have to be pulled off anyway so they're just tacked.
In a nut shell.... it's just all trim butted to trim or layered over trim. There's no wiggle room and it all starts from the window casings and works out from there.View Image
I think you pretty much confirmed what I was thinking. Will you be able to get the forklift back there with a work station up there or are you going to set up inside and work out of the windows or off ladders? Sounds hard unless you can get the skybox back. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Jim, we're not doing the window/siding/exterior trim package. I think you might have missed a couple posts in at the end of the thread... that might be part of the confusion. I bid on it and got it, but ended up passing on it as I had another foundation ready and need to move on and service a couple other GC's. Don't want to lose all my contacts for the sake of one, you know? If I had been slow(er) I would have done it.
On the last one the GC tried his regular finish crew on the exterior. Those guys do some truly remarkable work (see my, "Hey Tim Uhler" photo thread if you're intersted in seeing some of it) but they were lost on the exterior. The whole flashing and 'no flat spots' things threw them for a loop. :)
Since I passed on it, I think he's going to try a two man team I recommended to him. All they do are exteriors. Ex framers who were good.... but had enough. :) They do most of their work off of articulated and straight boom all terrain man lifts.
You're right.... I wouldn't touch that exterior with out a decent mobile aerial work station. Way too labor intensive without one. Don't think you could really make money on it any other way.View Image
You're on to something here - McCarthy custom frames and pool tables. Yea, that has a ring to it!
Some really interesting puzzles you're solving there - thanks for taking us along for the ride!
I should add that I would certainly be doing some permanent shoring under the existing roof as I'm certain that Diesel is, or will be doing. I think we all would agree that we can't just lay on a substantial roof like that without giving some consideration to the capabilities of the existing framing members.Edit: It would be very possible that the shoring of the existing roof would become a key consideration of the entire assembly. I might perhaps put a snow brace underthere that directly supported every new rafter with a load transference down to the existing walls/foundation. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Edited 6/6/2008 1:39 pm by Jim_Allen
someone would have to profide me with a compelling reason to make those long cuts on the upper rafters.
Cuz you won't get paid for it unless you do! LOL... that compelling enough for ya Blue? Ya wanna be right? Or ya wanna get paid? And maybe get the next job out of these guys too?
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Kind of dumb to argue about. We have done that many times. The arch is always right, even if they are wrong.
Jim,
There's a bunch of ways to skin this cat. I chose to use the method that the architect specified... CYA and all. FWIW, those rafters are 2x12 and are almost 20' including the 1' overhang. 19'6 IIRC. I'm not so sure that putting all that load onto nails in shear would be the best connection.... but I'm no engineer. And I'm also not so sure that installing a bunch of blocking is more efficient than making that long head-cut from a labor standpoint. For the little time saved (if any) do I really want to take on the exposure of having deviated from the plans with a system that "may or may not" pass inspection. Gotta remember... it's not the local inspectors I'm worried about on this job (I've never failed a framing inspection). It's the architect and structural engineer's inspections that concern me.
The 2x10 ledger does a couple things for us. It's gives us a decent nailing base to nail the new to the old. With the rafters stacked over the existing and without my 2x10 all I could do is toenail the new to the old roof sheathing... maybe hoping to catch a corner of an existing rafter. The 2x10 is spiked directly to the old rafters and then I can toenail my seat cut nicely to the 2x10. Additionally it provides a place to install the specified simpson hardware to connect the two to (presumably) resist uplift.
I can see I'm fighting the same battle with you guys that I occasionally get into with my lead man out here. He often wants to stray from the drawings because he thinks of something easier or faster. That's all well and good for most frames. On most frames the GC doesn't care how I build the house, as long as it looks clean and passes framing inspection. This is not 'most houses'. This architect can and will make me tear out anything he doesn't like.... justified or not. If I don't build to the plans (or clear it first) I've effectively lost my footing in any future debates with him. I don't get to redesign this guy's jobs to make my own life easier. I bid to the plans and build to the plans. Once bitten, twice shy.
On the last house we did I changed the rise/run of a staircase to eliminate a tread. There were headroom issues with that bell shaped dormer. I could see it coming, so I decided to be proactive and steal some space. The stairs were still fully code-compliant and I thought I'd be a hero for gaining that extra 10" and helping to 'solve' a problem. Nope. I had to tear them out and reframe them his way. I think he made me do it on spite alone for altering one of his designs without getting his input first. Like I said... once bitten, twice shy.
Besides, I'll be entirely honest and tell you that I think we're splitting hairs here. Your system might save 10 minutes... I dunno. Maybe mine's faster. I really don't know and wouldn't know unless I did both side by side. So if it's that close.... it's just not worth having to explain myself to these guys. View Image
I am with you on this one. No question at all .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I fully understand the situation you are in Diesel and I certainly am not criticizing any method. I'm just telling you what I would do, in the absence of a detailed drawing. In most cases, I've never had an architect give much thought to the details of the framing but when they do, I would do exactly like you...I'd do exactly what the detail shows. Your story about the stairs is a good lesson for all framers that want to "take the bull by the horns" and proactively make a correction. If I had been standing there when you decided to "help" out the situation, I would have warned you that you were making a big mistake. How would I know that? Been there, done that. YOu are exactly right about the ego thing. What measures is the architect taking to shore up the existing rafters that will be carrying the additional roof load? Are they already currently sized to carry the new roof or is there some underframing that needs to be done? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Unless they come up with something else, we don't have any other shoring to do to the existing roof. What we have done so far, is greatly shorten the span of the existing (full 2" by 8") rafters. We installed a triple 16" x 31' LVL to take the place of the original outside wall of the house. We moved it further up the roof though... to shorten the span of the existing rafters. I forget what the 'new span' is.... but the original rafters are now about 11' long or so.
I know very little engineering.....like none..... so I take their word for it that this is sufficient. When I look around the rest of the frame I tend to think that.....ahhh....well.... the engineer tends to err on the side of caution.... to put it mildly.
Blue.... FWIW..... I hear ya. Really I do. I'm a framer's framer at heart too. It's a constant battle with myself to resist doing things 'my way'. I see things on these jobs that, to my eyes, look way over engineered, and other things that look under engineered. I see designs that are so clever that I'm amazed anyone thought of them. And others that look like something my laborer came up with as a solution. But it's just not my call bro. Sometimes ya really can't fight City Hall.View Image
Some more roof shots...
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Bing, I used to call that dilemma "musical subdivisions" or "musical builders". You run around trying to please one builder or another and when the work slows down you end up in one builders doghouse and one builders group of favored subs. The problem is that you don't know which builders product will still be selling when things slow down! The solution is to take the framing business up several notches. Instead of running one quality crew, you have to expand to three, four or more. Of course, we all know that that creates an entirely new set of situations to deal with. If you can stomache buying sawzall blades by the pallet, the 50 man carpentry company can make you a lot of money! Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
When I first started as a laborer/ helper, my boss ( old timer named Gus that would love this site if I could get him to buy a computer) had 25 guys working for him on 5 crews. His sons ran 3, his brother ran 1 and he ran 1. Did a ton of work, ranging from shotgun ranches to huge contemporaries and everything in between. He did pretty much as you describe to a tee. When he had a tough one, he'd pull a guy from this crew, a guy from that crew, send some lesser skilled guys on the simpler stuff...you get the idea. As time went by, his brother went into business for himself, as did one of the sons, and eventually, he narrowed it down to himself, two sons one daughter, and me. He still says to this day that he made more money during that stretch than with the big crews. Had more control over time etc. It's funny, the thing few people think of when they start out is the business end of it. He did make a lot more dough than 99% of the framers I've met, but not as much as he could have. He's still framing ( more to keep his kids going than anything ) at 73, looks like he's 53.
He taught me a lot of stuff over the years, made me the stickler that I try to be for quality, and most importantly, that no matter what you do in this business, all you really have is your name. I still on occasion will be talking to a prospective customer, and when the subject of how I came into the biz comes up, get a "Oh, you worked for Gus?" and I know for a fact that it's scored me work.
But I digress
It is a juggling match sometimes, but all ya can do is all ya can do...
Bing
Now that is true "Custom Home Building" Love it , done more than few like that and always thought they were the absolute best jobs, money not withstanding.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
<This architect is very different>
i know exactly the type of architect which you speak of. if building history has shown us one thing it's that the best architects are the craziest. visionaries un willing to compromise. Franky Wright comes to my mind. he had furniture bolted to the floor.
i prefer to work with someone who is willing to concede that they were possibly incorrect (anyone ever come in contact with a structural engineer that has said "maybe we did overdesign that").
i see to many houses where conept supercedes function, durability, and common sense. the house we framed this winter is a good example. beautiful really. pitches from 8,11,14,16,12,and 5 on the roof. looks like it belongs on the coast of long island sound , it is on the coast.... of lake champlain where we get snow. there were enormous ice dams and the fifty foot 6 pitch valley had about 8' of snow in it. the pitches of the roofs emtying into the valley were 11 and 16 3/8. how could this not hold snow.
anyway, your work looks great.
on a different note have you ever heard of the comany Thought Forms. my uncle works for them. they do really nice work. wondering if you were familiar
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.
LOL.... I've read your post like three times over the past couple days and I still can't tell whether you enjoy or despise frames like the one you described or the one I'm currently on. And maybe that best describes how we all feel about them! Love/hate relationship with them.
Thought Forms..... I've definitely heard of them and have probably framed on their work.... but I can't recall why/where it's ringing a bell from. View Image
i love a challenge. i am currently framing a freestanding kitchen/bathrroom/loft in an old 1860/50's church. very bizarre to say the least. i am compiling pics currently and will start a thread when i have time.
i guess i have an issue with conceptual designs that don't work. i am probably not in the best mindset to be talking about architects right now. today i have to demo a bunch of work due to an archies neurosis/incompetence.
working with a good architect is awesome. but most i've encountered aren't worth the money they cost.
just my 2 cents. keep posting pics:)
Every day is a gift, that's why it's called the present.